The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[westport]

Good news, Mish is back training

[westport]

Stevie Scott moving to Watsonians. Did Blair pick his team ir were they in place/SRU apps?

I believe it is the club that pick them, probably with a bit of input from SRU, happy to be corrected. Stevie does have quite a CV now.

[Slick]

Doesn't look like I'm going to manage a trip for the RWC itself so a wee jaunt to France in August might be nice. Also a bit of summer rugby in Scotland to enjoy.

Any indication where that game in France might be? Will probably be in the country at that time. I’m guessing the south might be a bit warm for a game

[GrahamWa]

Doesn't look like I'm going to manage a trip for the RWC itself so a wee jaunt to France in August might be nice. Also a bit of summer rugby in Scotland to enjoy.

Any indication where that game in France might be? Will probably be in the country at that time. I’m guessing the south might be a bit warm for a game

Glasgow forum suggesting St Etienne.

[Biffer]

Doesn't look like I'm going to manage a trip for the RWC itself so a wee jaunt to France in August might be nice. Also a bit of summer rugby in Scotland to enjoy.

Any indication where that game in France might be? Will probably be in the country at that time. I’m guessing the south might be a bit warm for a game

I was thinking that it won’t be in any of the stadiums being used for the tournament. So maybe one of the three that were on the original list and then removed, which would be ’Paris’, Lens and Montpellier. Got to assume Paris would Parc de Princes or maybe the Racing funky arena.

[Jock42]

Stevie Scott moving to Watsonians. Did Blair pick his team ir were they in place/SRU apps?

I believe it is the club that pick them, probably with a bit of input from SRU, happy to be corrected. Stevie does have quite a CV now.

I think I may have confused Steve Scott with Steve Lawrie

[Big D]

I'm not too despondent about the players we have in the short and medium term. The Fagersons are both mid 20s, as are Darcy, Ritchie, Cummings, Crosbie, Baylis, Hodgson, Ben White, Tuipulotu, Hutchinson.

Sykes, Christie, Darge, Boyle, Harrison, Ashman, Ollie Smith, Dobie, Redpath, McLean, Rowe, Currie are all just a bit younger than the first group and are at various stages in their development.

This second "wave" includes Murphy Walker, we are very short at prop in this cohort.

For me it isn't despondency rather than recognising that Townsend, and Cotter to be fair, have had some of the best Scottish talent in their pomp during their tenure. Especially given the positions they play. If anything it is more of a tribute to the players that have there, been, gone or on a slight downward trend. For example, Townsend has had the benefit of starting 5 test capped Lions in his back line recently.

It certainly isn't intended as a slight to say some of the players may not be as good as those they are following for a while considering how very good the likes of Nel, Russell and Hogg have been. Then there are the likes of Gray, Brown, Rambo, and Watson who were among the best in Europe at their peak even if only for a short period. Definitely too early to call Watson past his best but he was well below his best before his injury.

[Big D]

Yep - we may be approaching the end of the careers of some of our generational talents in Hogg and Russell, but I don’t see a massive drop-off in what is coming through at the moment otherwise. How good a player is doesn’t always become obvious as soon as they become a pro, in any case. The first time I saw Russell play, it was for our U20s, and he started on the bench.

IIRC, Hoggy debuted for Scotland in the same 6N as Lee Jones and at the time I thought Jones was very good and Hoggy promising.

I think there are a few in the academies that could be good, too

Jones debuted the first match Vs England (I think Dave Denton did and got motm or close to he was phenomenal) and we lost to a charge down Charlie Hodgson charge down try. The night before Hogg played for Scotland A, tore the Saxons to shreds including a beautiful individual try and then the week after we went to Cardiff Hogg came off the bench scored an obvious try that was ruled out but played well in any case and the week after scored early Vs France. The rest in history but after the Wales match everyone knew how good a player Hogg was and would be.

I was trying to find details on that game. The A team were phenomenal that night. I am sure Weir and Scott were in that back line. Hogg took the jersey on merit after the Evans injury at 19. We have seen his best but a lot on social media forget just how good he was.

[weegie01]

I was trying to find details on that game. The A team were phenomenal that night. I am sure Weir and Scott were in that back line. Hogg took the jersey on merit after the Evans injury at 19. We have seen his best but a lot on social media forget just how good he was.

We were at that game. Hogg scored a try just to our left that was a genuine 'how on earth did he do that?' He ran through a bunch of England players with no one laying a hand on him. There is video around of the match, and even rewatching I still could not work it out. Weir was at 10 and also ripped England A apart, I can't recall if Scott was playing.

It was an all round astonishing display with Scottish youngsters getting torn into an England A of solid league players and a number of well kent faces.

[I like neeps]

I'm not too despondent about the players we have in the short and medium term. The Fagersons are both mid 20s, as are Darcy, Ritchie, Cummings, Crosbie, Baylis, Hodgson, Ben White, Tuipulotu, Hutchinson.

Sykes, Christie, Darge, Boyle, Harrison, Ashman, Ollie Smith, Dobie, Redpath, McLean, Rowe, Currie are all just a bit younger than the first group and are at various stages in their development.

This second "wave" includes Murphy Walker, we are very short at prop in this cohort.

For me it isn't despondency rather than recognising that Townsend, and Cotter to be fair, have had some of the best Scottish talent in their pomp during their tenure. Especially given the positions they play. If anything it is more of a tribute to the players that have there, been, gone or on a slight downward trend. For example, Townsend has had the benefit of starting 5 test capped Lions in his back line recently.

It certainly isn't intended as a slight to say some of the players may not be as good as those they are following for a while considering how very good the likes of Nel, Russell and Hogg have been. Then there are the likes of Gray, Brown, Rambo, and Watson who were among the best in Europe at their peak even if only for a short period. Definitely too early to call Watson past his best but he was well below his best before his injury.

And Townsend had a lot to do with that as he coached the young guys and Glasgow and had the right talent ID so they all became good international players. I think he'll be an excellent club coach again.

But I think when we look back on his era with Scotland we'll remember fondly the good times Vs England and some good results Vs France and Aus but overall be disappointed with the squad we had that we didn't really ever compete in the six nations or anything. Maybe it's an unrealistic goal but Townsend has never achieved consistency in performance. Always one good result/performance one bad.

[Tichtheid]

We haven't had the pack to match our backs in recent years. I doubt there is a bigger fan of Nel outside of his family than me, but he did find the change to international rugby hard work, he has always been a bit short of puff at that level. Fagerson is good but he's no Euan Murray (Zander adds more in the loose tbh). Bulloch is our best hooker of the pro era. Tom Smith is the obvious choice at loosehead. Hines and Murray would be my second row. The back row being Jason White, Simon Taylor and then perhaps peak Watson gets in at 7.

We've always been at the mercy of big powerful packs in this "Golden Era", South Africa and Ireland particularly have blown us away. We've never gained the upper hand against Wales because we haven't had control of the game up front, we couldn't smash through their defence and get them having to make tackles on the retreat.

The clichés in rugby are true, you don't win games without a pack that will gain you at the very least parity up front - Glasgow won on Sunday due, in part, to their ruck ball speed, that is down to dynamic forward play, the Stormers perhaps aren't quite as formidable up front as their counterparts in SA, it takes more than a huge scrum to get the upper hand over the period of the game.

So whilst I have some agreement with the idea of our "Golden Era" players, it's not across the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe John Barclay or Kelly Brown can feel a little aggrieved at not making the Lions, but there aren't many from the forwards.
Beattie was the best of the lot, in a coulda woulda shoulda way, so much talent but he never really made the most of it.

[Slick]

I'm not too despondent about the players we have in the short and medium term. The Fagersons are both mid 20s, as are Darcy, Ritchie, Cummings, Crosbie, Baylis, Hodgson, Ben White, Tuipulotu, Hutchinson.

Sykes, Christie, Darge, Boyle, Harrison, Ashman, Ollie Smith, Dobie, Redpath, McLean, Rowe, Currie are all just a bit younger than the first group and are at various stages in their development.

This second "wave" includes Murphy Walker, we are very short at prop in this cohort.

For me it isn't despondency rather than recognising that Townsend, and Cotter to be fair, have had some of the best Scottish talent in their pomp during their tenure. Especially given the positions they play. If anything it is more of a tribute to the players that have there, been, gone or on a slight downward trend. For example, Townsend has had the benefit of starting 5 test capped Lions in his back line recently.

It certainly isn't intended as a slight to say some of the players may not be as good as those they are following for a while considering how very good the likes of Nel, Russell and Hogg have been. Then there are the likes of Gray, Brown, Rambo, and Watson who were among the best in Europe at their peak even if only for a short period. Definitely too early to call Watson past his best but he was well below his best before his injury.

And Townsend had a lot to do with that as he coached the young guys and Glasgow and had the right talent ID so they all became good international players. I think he'll be an excellent club coach again.

But I think when we look back on his era with Scotland we'll remember fondly the good times Vs England and some good results Vs France and Aus but overall be disappointed with the squad we had that we didn't really ever compete in the six nations or anything. Maybe it's an unrealistic goal but Townsend has never achieved consistency in performance. Always one good result/performance one bad.

This is probably about fair, as is Tichtheids post.

I don't understand the opprobrium that he attracts from some though, even this morning in the comments sections of decent papers it was a majority "fuck off now" type comment. Although there are a section of Scottish rugby supporters who are just utter dicks - we've spoken about the awful old SRU chatroom.

[I like neeps]

We haven't had the pack to match our backs in recent years. I doubt there is a bigger fan of Nel outside of his family than me, but he did find the change to international rugby hard work, he has always been a bit short of puff at that level. Fagerson is good but he's no Euan Murray (Zander adds more in the loose tbh). Bulloch is our best hooker of the pro era. Tom Smith is the obvious choice at loosehead. Hines and Murray would be my second row. The back row being Jason White, Simon Taylor and then perhaps peak Watson gets in at 7.

We've always been at the mercy of big powerful packs in this "Golden Era", South Africa and Ireland particularly have blown us away. We've never gained the upper hand against Wales because we haven't had control of the game up front, we couldn't smash through their defence and get them having to make tackles on the retreat.

The clichés in rugby are true, you don't win games without a pack that will gain you at the very least parity up front - Glasgow won on Sunday due, in part, to their ruck ball speed, that is down to dynamic forward play, the Stormers perhaps aren't quite as formidable up front as their counterparts in SA, it takes more than a huge scrum to get the upper hand over the period of the game.

So whilst I have some agreement with the idea of our "Golden Era" players, it's not across the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe John Barclay or Kelly Brown can feel a little aggrieved at not making the Lions, but there aren't many from the forwards.
Beattie was the best of the lot, in a coulda woulda shoulda way, so much talent but he never really made the most of it.

During Gatland's reign this is very true. During Pivac's reign it has not been true at all. The behind closed doors game at BTM and even the trip to the Principality it was a really poor attitude I thought, so many basic mistakes. The BTM Gary Graham debacle was particularly painful. A real "we've just beaten England, we'll win this too" attitude I felt.

Also golden era doesn't mean best players 1-15, it means the best team overall. We've had very strong individuals in the pre Cotter/Toonie era but rarely a very strong team for most of the 2000s. And it wasn't be golden era anyway. But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

[Tichtheid]

We haven't had the pack to match our backs in recent years. I doubt there is a bigger fan of Nel outside of his family than me, but he did find the change to international rugby hard work, he has always been a bit short of puff at that level. Fagerson is good but he's no Euan Murray (Zander adds more in the loose tbh). Bulloch is our best hooker of the pro era. Tom Smith is the obvious choice at loosehead. Hines and Murray would be my second row. The back row being Jason White, Simon Taylor and then perhaps peak Watson gets in at 7.

We've always been at the mercy of big powerful packs in this "Golden Era", South Africa and Ireland particularly have blown us away. We've never gained the upper hand against Wales because we haven't had control of the game up front, we couldn't smash through their defence and get them having to make tackles on the retreat.

The clichés in rugby are true, you don't win games without a pack that will gain you at the very least parity up front - Glasgow won on Sunday due, in part, to their ruck ball speed, that is down to dynamic forward play, the Stormers perhaps aren't quite as formidable up front as their counterparts in SA, it takes more than a huge scrum to get the upper hand over the period of the game.

So whilst I have some agreement with the idea of our "Golden Era" players, it's not across the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe John Barclay or Kelly Brown can feel a little aggrieved at not making the Lions, but there aren't many from the forwards.
Beattie was the best of the lot, in a coulda woulda shoulda way, so much talent but he never really made the most of it.

During Gatland's reign this is very true. During Pivac's reign it has not been true at all. The behind closed doors game at BTM and even the trip to the Principality it was a really poor attitude I thought, so many basic mistakes. The BTM Gary Graham debacle was particularly painful. A real "we've just beaten England, we'll win this too" attitude I felt.

Also golden era doesn't mean best players 1-15, it means the best team overall. We've had very strong individuals in the pre Cotter/Toonie era but rarely a very strong team for most of the 2000s. And it wasn't be golden era anyway. But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

I think if you take the 12 wins out of 13 Wales had against us during Gatland's tenure, our win being of course when Stan Laurel was in charge of them, you can take that as a trend. If we had battered Wales up front we might have been more successful than our one win in three when Pivac was in charge.

I think my point stands, our forwards just aren't good enough to win a 6N let alone a RWC, even five current Lions in the backline plus Darcy Graham don't make up for that fact.

We've lacked an international level 8 for a long time, apart from Cummings we don't have a big carrier in the second row. Our line out has been flaky since Bulloch was throwing to Murray, our scrum is never dominant. We get turned over so many times after a break we are just waiting for the penalty to be given against us - no support runners and no one clearing out.

Believe me, I don't take any pleasure in this, I agree our backs would be terrific if they got good fast ball and had forwards blasting over the top when they get tackled.
If the backs are golden era the forwards are bronze at best.

[Slick]

But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

This is probably the crux of it, it has been 5 years of expectation when we haven't even really troubled the 6N, and I think a lot of that expectation was probably justified despite history suggesting otherwise. Where I might not agree is that all, or even a majority of it, can be laid at Toony's door, it seems more of a cultural thing.

Probably worth also noting that this has been an absolute golden few years for Ireland and, latterly, France, but England have been shite and Wales, FFS, we should have done better.

[Tichtheid]

The prestigious Macphail Scholarship has returned for the first time since 2020 with three promising Scottish Rugby players given the opportunity of a lifetime to follow in the footsteps of internationally capped players and embark on a playing experience in South Africa this month.

Guy Kirkpatrick, Monroe Job, Callum Smyth have been awarded the coveted John Macphail Rugby Scholarship and leave on Monday 23 January. They will spend five months immersed in South Africa’s renowned rugby culture at the high-performance training facility at Stellenbosch University.

https://scottishrugby.org/the-macphail- ... th-africa/

[I like neeps]

We haven't had the pack to match our backs in recent years. I doubt there is a bigger fan of Nel outside of his family than me, but he did find the change to international rugby hard work, he has always been a bit short of puff at that level. Fagerson is good but he's no Euan Murray (Zander adds more in the loose tbh). Bulloch is our best hooker of the pro era. Tom Smith is the obvious choice at loosehead. Hines and Murray would be my second row. The back row being Jason White, Simon Taylor and then perhaps peak Watson gets in at 7.

We've always been at the mercy of big powerful packs in this "Golden Era", South Africa and Ireland particularly have blown us away. We've never gained the upper hand against Wales because we haven't had control of the game up front, we couldn't smash through their defence and get them having to make tackles on the retreat.

The clichés in rugby are true, you don't win games without a pack that will gain you at the very least parity up front - Glasgow won on Sunday due, in part, to their ruck ball speed, that is down to dynamic forward play, the Stormers perhaps aren't quite as formidable up front as their counterparts in SA, it takes more than a huge scrum to get the upper hand over the period of the game.

So whilst I have some agreement with the idea of our "Golden Era" players, it's not across the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe John Barclay or Kelly Brown can feel a little aggrieved at not making the Lions, but there aren't many from the forwards.
Beattie was the best of the lot, in a coulda woulda shoulda way, so much talent but he never really made the most of it.

During Gatland's reign this is very true. During Pivac's reign it has not been true at all. The behind closed doors game at BTM and even the trip to the Principality it was a really poor attitude I thought, so many basic mistakes. The BTM Gary Graham debacle was particularly painful. A real "we've just beaten England, we'll win this too" attitude I felt.

Also golden era doesn't mean best players 1-15, it means the best team overall. We've had very strong individuals in the pre Cotter/Toonie era but rarely a very strong team for most of the 2000s. And it wasn't be golden era anyway. But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

I think if you take the 12 wins out of 13 Wales had against us during Gatland's tenure, our win being of course when Stan Laurel was in charge of them, you can take that as a trend. If we had battered Wales up front we might have been more successful than our one win in three when Pivac was in charge.

I think my point stands, our forwards just aren't good enough to win a 6N let alone a RWC, even five current Lions in the backline plus Darcy Graham don't make up for that fact.

We've lacked an international level 8 for a long time, apart from Cummings we don't have a big carrier in the second row. Our line out has been flaky since Bulloch was throwing to Murray, our scrum is never dominant. We get turned over so many times after a break we are just waiting for the penalty to be given against us - no support runners and no one clearing out.

Believe me, I don't take any pleasure in this, I agree our backs would be terrific if they got good fast ball and had forwards blasting over the top when they get tackled.
If the backs are golden era the forwards are bronze at best.

Yes absolutely agree Gatland's Wales monstered us up front for a decade. I really don't think Pivac's did, especially the game at BTM in the covid six nations, it was awful discipline that cost us. Blocked last year out of my mind but again I think if we look back on comments discipline and intensity will be the focus. Italy beat Wales, Georgia beat Wales, everyone beats Wales these days. But Scotland the last two years sh*t the bed against them. It's incredibly disappointing and one of the reasons I don't think Townsend is the right man for the job, the team sh*t the bed much too often.

Ireland are very good, there's no two ways around it. Wales aren't, Italy aren't, we can beat England and we can beat France. But we could never consistently play a six nations where every week our teams play to their potential.

Warren Gatland gets every ounce of talent from Wales, I don't think when we look back the same can be said of Gregor Townsend and Scotland.

[Yr Alban]

We haven't had the pack to match our backs in recent years. I doubt there is a bigger fan of Nel outside of his family than me, but he did find the change to international rugby hard work, he has always been a bit short of puff at that level. Fagerson is good but he's no Euan Murray (Zander adds more in the loose tbh). Bulloch is our best hooker of the pro era. Tom Smith is the obvious choice at loosehead. Hines and Murray would be my second row. The back row being Jason White, Simon Taylor and then perhaps peak Watson gets in at 7.

We've always been at the mercy of big powerful packs in this "Golden Era", South Africa and Ireland particularly have blown us away. We've never gained the upper hand against Wales because we haven't had control of the game up front, we couldn't smash through their defence and get them having to make tackles on the retreat.

The clichés in rugby are true, you don't win games without a pack that will gain you at the very least parity up front - Glasgow won on Sunday due, in part, to their ruck ball speed, that is down to dynamic forward play, the Stormers perhaps aren't quite as formidable up front as their counterparts in SA, it takes more than a huge scrum to get the upper hand over the period of the game.

So whilst I have some agreement with the idea of our "Golden Era" players, it's not across the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe John Barclay or Kelly Brown can feel a little aggrieved at not making the Lions, but there aren't many from the forwards.
Beattie was the best of the lot, in a coulda woulda shoulda way, so much talent but he never really made the most of it.

During Gatland's reign this is very true. During Pivac's reign it has not been true at all. The behind closed doors game at BTM and even the trip to the Principality it was a really poor attitude I thought, so many basic mistakes. The BTM Gary Graham debacle was particularly painful. A real "we've just beaten England, we'll win this too" attitude I felt.

Also golden era doesn't mean best players 1-15, it means the best team overall. We've had very strong individuals in the pre Cotter/Toonie era but rarely a very strong team for most of the 2000s. And it wasn't be golden era anyway. But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

I know it feels like we didn’t compete even once, and to be fair we eventually finished 4th by one point in the PD. But the year Zander was sent off v Wales and we lost that game by a point, if we had held on and won the game then we’d have been 6N champions.

Yes, I know. Shoulda woulda coulda, and if my auntie had baws she’d be my uncle. But that’s how fine the margins between success and failure are sometimes.

[I like neeps]

We haven't had the pack to match our backs in recent years. I doubt there is a bigger fan of Nel outside of his family than me, but he did find the change to international rugby hard work, he has always been a bit short of puff at that level. Fagerson is good but he's no Euan Murray (Zander adds more in the loose tbh). Bulloch is our best hooker of the pro era. Tom Smith is the obvious choice at loosehead. Hines and Murray would be my second row. The back row being Jason White, Simon Taylor and then perhaps peak Watson gets in at 7.

We've always been at the mercy of big powerful packs in this "Golden Era", South Africa and Ireland particularly have blown us away. We've never gained the upper hand against Wales because we haven't had control of the game up front, we couldn't smash through their defence and get them having to make tackles on the retreat.

The clichés in rugby are true, you don't win games without a pack that will gain you at the very least parity up front - Glasgow won on Sunday due, in part, to their ruck ball speed, that is down to dynamic forward play, the Stormers perhaps aren't quite as formidable up front as their counterparts in SA, it takes more than a huge scrum to get the upper hand over the period of the game.

So whilst I have some agreement with the idea of our "Golden Era" players, it's not across the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe John Barclay or Kelly Brown can feel a little aggrieved at not making the Lions, but there aren't many from the forwards.
Beattie was the best of the lot, in a coulda woulda shoulda way, so much talent but he never really made the most of it.

During Gatland's reign this is very true. During Pivac's reign it has not been true at all. The behind closed doors game at BTM and even the trip to the Principality it was a really poor attitude I thought, so many basic mistakes. The BTM Gary Graham debacle was particularly painful. A real "we've just beaten England, we'll win this too" attitude I felt.

Also golden era doesn't mean best players 1-15, it means the best team overall. We've had very strong individuals in the pre Cotter/Toonie era but rarely a very strong team for most of the 2000s. And it wasn't be golden era anyway. But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

I know it feels like we didn’t compete even once, and to be fair we eventually finished 4th by one point in the PD. But the year Zander was sent off v Wales and we lost that game by a point, if we had held on and won the game then we’d have been 6N champions.

Yes, I know. Shoulda woulda coulda, and if my auntie had baws she’d be my uncle. But that’s how fine the margins between success and failure are sometimes.

The Zander red card is revisionism. We lost that game because of repeated failures to score easy chances and repeated lapses in discipline.

I read the Guardian minute but minute report look at 37 minutes - they make a sarcastic comment about Wales actually doing something well (collect a lineout in their 22), two Scotland penalties and Wales scored on half time. I remember that sequence which is why I went looking for it because it let Wales in a match they were nowhere near. Rightfully Gary Graham has not played for Scotland since as he was a culprit but not the only one.

If we had played well in that match or not been as ill-disciplined, we'd have won the six nations. But we lost and then we lost Vs Ireland with another iirc poor performance and so we didn't win and we didn't even come top half. And that is Townsend's problem. Too much of that sh*te through his time here.

[Dogbert]

During Gatland's reign this is very true. During Pivac's reign it has not been true at all. The behind closed doors game at BTM and even the trip to the Principality it was a really poor attitude I thought, so many basic mistakes. The BTM Gary Graham debacle was particularly painful. A real "we've just beaten England, we'll win this too" attitude I felt.

Also golden era doesn't mean best players 1-15, it means the best team overall. We've had very strong individuals in the pre Cotter/Toonie era but rarely a very strong team for most of the 2000s. And it wasn't be golden era anyway. But it is a great squad and if we're all being honest not competing even once has been disappointing.

I know it feels like we didn’t compete even once, and to be fair we eventually finished 4th by one point in the PD. But the year Zander was sent off v Wales and we lost that game by a point, if we had held on and won the game then we’d have been 6N champions.

Yes, I know. Shoulda woulda coulda, and if my auntie had baws she’d be my uncle. But that’s how fine the margins between success and failure are sometimes.

The Zander red card is revisionism. We lost that game because of repeated failures to score easy chances and repeated lapses in discipline.

I read the Guardian minute but minute report look at 37 minutes - they make a sarcastic comment about Wales actually doing something well (collect a lineout in their 22), two Scotland penalties and Wales scored on half time. I remember that sequence which is why I went looking for it because it let Wales in a match they were nowhere near. Rightfully Gary Graham has not played for Scotland since as he was a culprit but not the only one.

If we had played well in that match or not been as ill-disciplined, we'd have won the six nations. But we lost and then we lost Vs Ireland with another iirc poor performance and so we didn't win and we didn't even come top half. And that is Townsend's problem. Too much of that sh*te through his time here.

And we see that week in week out in both Edinburgh and Glasgow matches , where lets face it most of our Internationals come from.

Somehow , by magic , we expect these players to change overnight , wheb they play under Townsend for Scotland.

Lots of posters on here seem to hark back to the days of Cotter, however his tenure coincided with Glasgow winning , or placing highly in the league , the same Glasgow that were being coached by one G, Townsend

[KingBlairhorn]

I know it feels like we didn’t compete even once, and to be fair we eventually finished 4th by one point in the PD. But the year Zander was sent off v Wales and we lost that game by a point, if we had held on and won the game then we’d have been 6N champions.

Yes, I know. Shoulda woulda coulda, and if my auntie had baws she’d be my uncle. But that’s how fine the margins between success and failure are sometimes.

The Zander red card is revisionism. We lost that game because of repeated failures to score easy chances and repeated lapses in discipline.

I read the Guardian minute but minute report look at 37 minutes - they make a sarcastic comment about Wales actually doing something well (collect a lineout in their 22), two Scotland penalties and Wales scored on half time. I remember that sequence which is why I went looking for it because it let Wales in a match they were nowhere near. Rightfully Gary Graham has not played for Scotland since as he was a culprit but not the only one.

If we had played well in that match or not been as ill-disciplined, we'd have won the six nations. But we lost and then we lost Vs Ireland with another iirc poor performance and so we didn't win and we didn't even come top half. And that is Townsend's problem. Too much of that sh*te through his time here.

And we see that week in week out in both Edinburgh and Glasgow matches , where lets face it most of our Internationals come from.

Somehow , by magic , we expect these players to change overnight , wheb they play under Townsend for Scotland.

Lots of posters on here seem to hark back to the days of Cotter, however his tenure coincided with Glasgow winning , or placing highly in the league , the same Glasgow that were being coached by one G, Townsend

I've said it before here and been shot down, but maybe our players just aren't as good as we think they are. I spend a lot of time with friends/family from other Six Nations countries, and generally speaking they think our best players are alright and our alright players are not good. We think Hogg is an all-time player, they think he is a deeply flawed (poor defence, poor passing) fullback who is excellent in broken play. We think Watson is a fabulous 7, they think he is an underweight backrow who goes sideways more often than forwards. We think Price is a great controlling scrum-half, they think he is a poor scrummie with an inaccurate pass and a poor box kick. I could go on through most of our best players.

Conversely, how many of us think the Irish over-rate Tagh Furlong, or Van der Flier or peak Sexton or Murray? How many of us think Warburton wasn't all that, or that Jonathan Davies wasn't as good as the Welsh think? How many of us now think Dupont is getting more plaudits than he deserves or that Penaud is over-rated? There is definitely something in the idea that some not good teams (looking at you Wales) have been lucky to win the Six Nations in recent years, but there is very little truth in it if you think it has been anything but consistently the best teams and players who have competed at the top end and largely won the tournament in general. I don't think having the best coach in the world would have been enough of an equalizer to get our squad over the line for a tournament win without an extreme dose of luck ala Wales. Anything else is viewing the last 10-15 years through the tartanist or tartan specs.

[Tichtheid]

I've said it before here and been shot down, but maybe our players just aren't as good as we think they are. I spend a lot of time with friends/family from other Six Nations countries, and generally speaking they think our best players are alright and our alright players are not good. We think Hogg is an all-time player, they think he is a deeply flawed (poor defence, poor passing) fullback who is excellent in broken play. We think Watson is a fabulous 7, they think he is an underweight backrow who goes sideways more often than forwards. We think Price is a great controlling scrum-half, they think he is a poor scrummie with an inaccurate pass and a poor box kick. I could go on through most of our best players.

Conversely, how many of us think the Irish over-rate Tagh Furlong, or Van der Flier or peak Sexton or Murray? How many of us think Warburton wasn't all that, or that Jonathan Davies wasn't as good as the Welsh think? How many of us now think Dupont is getting more plaudits than he deserves or that Penaud is over-rated? There is definitely something in the idea that some not good teams (looking at you Wales) have been lucky to win the Six Nations in recent years, but there is very little truth in it if you think it has been anything but consistently the best teams and players who have competed at the top end and largely won the tournament in general. I don't think having the best coach in the world would have been enough of an equalizer to get our squad over the line for a tournament win without an extreme dose of luck ala Wales. Anything else is viewing the last 10-15 years through the tartanist or tartan specs.

These are pretty much my thoughts too.

I think most teams wouldn't turn their noses up at Darcy Graham and when the likes of Hoggy and Finn get it right they are phenomenal players, but over the years I haven't heard many commenters from other nations saying "I wish so and so was [insert nationality of choice]."

Our imports generally would be a mile off the All Blacks, save Maitland perhaps who wasn't that far off an exceptional squad, or the Boks, or even England, but they are far better than the others we have had available to us.

I'm okay with it all, I start every Six Nations with a cheery optimism that isn't really warranted - we have fewer full time professional rugby players than many countries have officials and staff - until we have a wider playing base to pick from things aren't going to change, for every improvement and step forward we make, the other countries are doing the same, and of course we were fumbling about at the back trying to get our spikes on whilst everyone else took off in the race towards professionalism.

[LenCohen]

Re one of the comments above, Warburton does my head in. Spent the majority of his career injured (100 games for Cardiff in ten years!), got lucky with a couple of big moments then promptly retired due to "injury" when he realised he could make more money from TV and speaking engagements. His injuries were so career-endingly bad that he now squats 200 and deadlifts 250 on instagram in order to sell his training programmes. Give me Watson any day.

[Tichtheid]

Re one of the comments above, Warburton does my head in. Spent the majority of his career injured (100 games for Cardiff in ten years!), got lucky with a couple of big moments then promptly retired due to "injury" when he realised he could make more money from TV and speaking engagements. His injuries were so career-endingly bad that he now squats 200 and deadlifts 250 on instagram in order to sell his training programmes. Give me Watson any day.

Wasn't it neck injuries from getting pummelled at the breakdown that caused him to stop? That and a knee from croc rolling.

He spoke about that facet of the game quite a lot at the time of his retirement iirc, in fact one of the times I remember was when he was a pundit watching John Barclay getting hit the same way

[LenCohen]

His neck and knee seem fine now. Good on him for seeing an opportunity and taking it, but it's odd that he's held up as a paragon of integrity

[I like neeps]

The Zander red card is revisionism. We lost that game because of repeated failures to score easy chances and repeated lapses in discipline.

I read the Guardian minute but minute report look at 37 minutes - they make a sarcastic comment about Wales actually doing something well (collect a lineout in their 22), two Scotland penalties and Wales scored on half time. I remember that sequence which is why I went looking for it because it let Wales in a match they were nowhere near. Rightfully Gary Graham has not played for Scotland since as he was a culprit but not the only one.

If we had played well in that match or not been as ill-disciplined, we'd have won the six nations. But we lost and then we lost Vs Ireland with another iirc poor performance and so we didn't win and we didn't even come top half. And that is Townsend's problem. Too much of that sh*te through his time here.

And we see that week in week out in both Edinburgh and Glasgow matches , where lets face it most of our Internationals come from.

Somehow , by magic , we expect these players to change overnight , wheb they play under Townsend for Scotland.

Lots of posters on here seem to hark back to the days of Cotter, however his tenure coincided with Glasgow winning , or placing highly in the league , the same Glasgow that were being coached by one G, Townsend

I've said it before here and been shot down, but maybe our players just aren't as good as we think they are. I spend a lot of time with friends/family from other Six Nations countries, and generally speaking they think our best players are alright and our alright players are not good. We think Hogg is an all-time player, they think he is a deeply flawed (poor defence, poor passing) fullback who is excellent in broken play. We think Watson is a fabulous 7, they think he is an underweight backrow who goes sideways more often than forwards. We think Price is a great controlling scrum-half, they think he is a poor scrummie with an inaccurate pass and a poor box kick. I could go on through most of our best players.

Conversely, how many of us think the Irish over-rate Tagh Furlong, or Van der Flier or peak Sexton or Murray? How many of us think Warburton wasn't all that, or that Jonathan Davies wasn't as good as the Welsh think? How many of us now think Dupont is getting more plaudits than he deserves or that Penaud is over-rated? There is definitely something in the idea that some not good teams (looking at you Wales) have been lucky to win the Six Nations in recent years, but there is very little truth in it if you think it has been anything but consistently the best teams and players who have competed at the top end and largely won the tournament in general. I don't think having the best coach in the world would have been enough of an equalizer to get our squad over the line for a tournament win without an extreme dose of luck ala Wales. Anything else is viewing the last 10-15 years through the tartanist or tartan specs.

I agree with all that. But you don't need luck to beat Wales, you just need to play well when they show up, which Scotland have failed to do for the last two years for the same reason.

I firmly believe if Gatland had been in charge of Scotland 2019- present we'd have a better record. Would we have won the six nations? Unlikely. Would we continually lose winnable matches (not counting Ireland just pummeling us) in the same way? No.

[I like neeps]

His neck and knee seem fine now. Good on him for seeing an opportunity and taking it, but it's odd that he's held up as a paragon of integrity

Eh? He's not got integrity because he retired from rugby as he didn't like being regularly injured and has now gone and done a different activity? Weightlifting with the correct form and playing professional rugby have completely different risk involved. Are you suggesting he didn't have the injuries he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to lift weights? Would be very interested to hear the medical reasoning behind that. Because rugby players will lift close to those weights when still playing...

Fwiw, AWJ has 250 games in 20 years with the Ospreys which is basically the same ratio. Does he also lack integrity?

[Biffer]

His neck and knee seem fine now. Good on him for seeing an opportunity and taking it, but it's odd that he's held up as a paragon of integrity

Eh? He's not got integrity because he retired from rugby as he didn't like being regularly injured and has now gone and done a different activity? Weightlifting with the correct form and playing professional rugby have completely different risk involved. Are you suggesting he didn't have the injuries he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to lift weights? Would be very interested to hear the medical reasoning behind that. Because rugby players will lift close to those weights when still playing...

Fwiw, AWJ has 250 games in 20 years with the Ospreys which is basically the same ratio. Does he also lack integrity?

250 in 20 is 25% more than 100 in 10.

[Biffer]

His neck and knee seem fine now. Good on him for seeing an opportunity and taking it, but it's odd that he's held up as a paragon of integrity

Eh? He's not got integrity because he retired from rugby as he didn't like being regularly injured and has now gone and done a different activity? Weightlifting with the correct form and playing professional rugby have completely different risk involved. Are you suggesting he didn't have the injuries he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to lift weights? Would be very interested to hear the medical reasoning behind that. Because rugby players will lift close to those weights when still playing...

Fwiw, AWJ has 250 games in 20 years with the Ospreys which is basically the same ratio. Does he also lack integrity?

250 in 20 is 25% more than 100 in 10.

[clydecloggie]

[I like neeps]

His neck and knee seem fine now. Good on him for seeing an opportunity and taking it, but it's odd that he's held up as a paragon of integrity

Eh? He's not got integrity because he retired from rugby as he didn't like being regularly injured and has now gone and done a different activity? Weightlifting with the correct form and playing professional rugby have completely different risk involved. Are you suggesting he didn't have the injuries he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to lift weights? Would be very interested to hear the medical reasoning behind that. Because rugby players will lift close to those weights when still playing...

Fwiw, AWJ has 250 games in 20 years with the Ospreys which is basically the same ratio. Does he also lack integrity?

250 in 20 is 25% more than 100 in 10.

12.5% of games in that time compared to 10% basically using fag packet maths. Hardly a difference at all.

[Tichtheid]

Breast of duck to him.

They've got a tough draw - France, New Zealand, Italy and Uruguay

[Biffer]

Eh? He's not got integrity because he retired from rugby as he didn't like being regularly injured and has now gone and done a different activity? Weightlifting with the correct form and playing professional rugby have completely different risk involved. Are you suggesting he didn't have the injuries he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to lift weights? Would be very interested to hear the medical reasoning behind that. Because rugby players will lift close to those weights when still playing...

Fwiw, AWJ has 250 games in 20 years with the Ospreys which is basically the same ratio. Does he also lack integrity?

250 in 20 is 25% more than 100 in 10.

12.5% of games in that time compared to 10% basically using fag packet maths. Hardly a difference at all.

? 12.5% of what? If 250 was 12.5% of games that means the total was 2000 in twenty years or 100 games a year.

[Slick]

Thought this was quite good from Alasdair Reid

Should he stay or should he go? The question that swirled around Boris Johnson’s ears a year ago now seems to be ringing in Gregor Townsend’s lugs as well. The Scotland coach’s contract is due to expire after this year’s World Cup and the rugby rumour mill is creaking into action with speculation around where — if anywhere — he may go after that.

Townsend is known to have been sounded out by French authorities who will be looking for a backs/attack coach when the tournament is over. Laurent Labit, who fills that role at the moment, is standing down to take charge of Stade Français, while Pierre Mignoni, who was expected to succeed Labit, has made it clear he is staying with Toulon. Fabien Galthié, France’s head coach, knows Townsend well and, having brought Shaun Edwards into his backroom team, is clearly willing to cast his net wide.

Townsend is already au fait, as they say over there, with French rugby. His seasons as a player with Brive, Castres and Montpellier allowed him to polish his language skills and furnished him with a deep appreciation of the culture and history of the sport in France. Looking at the way Galthié has moved the team on over the past three years, it is easy to imagine that Townsend’s own playing philosophy would be a good fit. And as money is rarely any kind of object when French coaching jobs are being offered around then there are other attractions too.

At this point we can introduce a few flies into the ointment. For one thing, while France, as hosts and with a team on the rise, are current favourites to win the World Cup, an embarrassing flop on home soil — think England in 2015 — could bring the guillotine down on Galthié’s reign as head coach. For another, my French snouts tell me that Gonzalo Quesada, the former Argentina fly half who is currently coaching Stade Français, is quietly confident of taking over from Labit with France. And for yet another, my Scottish snouts tell me that Townsend is in no great rush to leave anyway (although he may not get a choice in the matter).

That nugget of information will likely be a crushing disappointment to the “Townsend Must Go” movement that was formed on the day he was named as Scotland coach and which has stuck with that perverse mantra over a five-year period in which Townsend, to their undoubted annoyance, has established himself as statistically Scotland’s most successful coach of all time even if hope so often gives way to despair.

In all likelihood, that grouping is made up of the remnants of the “Townsend Must Go” movement that was established in his playing days and kept up its shrill cry even as he became one of the most sought-after fly halves on earth, became first-choice playmaker in a winning Lions series and went on to weave more magic with tries in every round of Scotland’s triumphant Five Nations in 1999.

Those who want to put their bootprints on his backside and hasten him off to France might pause to wonder why the French would want him in the first place. Or, for that matter, why Warren Gatland was so keen to have him leading the Lions’ attack in South Africa in 2021 (having also asked him to do it in New Zealand in 2017). Could there be anything more Scottish than failing to acknowledge qualities that are fêted everywhere else?

And yet, there is a case for moving on as well. It is unhelpful to judge coaches in terms of being good or bad and more pertinent to ask whether they are right or wrong for any given team at any given time. There are plenty of examples of coaches who enjoyed huge success in one role but were hopeless in another. Plenty, too, who started well, tailed off badly and were ushered out of office. Eddie Jones is only the latest example of that.

As in most areas of leadership, there appears to be a shelf life in coaching. Only a very few can maintain a high level of success year after year, and fewer still have the ability to sprinkle gold dust wherever they go.

In light of which, suggestions that Leicester may now be in the mix to secure his services should set alarm bells ringing in the Townsend household. The East Midlands club has a rich history of sending gilded reputations to the coaching graveyard, with Bob Dwyer, Marcelo Loffreda and Heyneke Mayer already on the list of those they have wooed and wasted over the years.

Would Townsend really see it as progress to go from being head coach of one leading nation to being an assistant for another? Don’t buy the idea that he is some sort of control freak. He certainly likes to be in charge and likes things done his way. Would doing the bidding of Galthié, a man with a few ideas of his own about attack play, really sit well with him?

At the same time, it would be perfectly understandable if Townsend decided he has taken this Scotland team as far as he can and that he wanted new challenges in his life. He would, unquestionably, be comfortable in France, although that could just as easily be as head coach of a well-funded Top 14 side as in the national set-up. He also knows he has been blessed to have a golden generation of players with Scotland over the past few years and, surveying the next lot coming through, could well decide that a swift exit is called for.

But while plenty would be happy to see the back of him, a lesson from the past can be valuable. Twenty years ago there was a widespread feeling that Ian McGeechan was flagging in his second stint as Scotland coach, that he hadn’t come close to reproducing the grand slam magic of his first period in the job and that it was time to move on. That duly happened after the 2003 World Cup in Australia, when McGeechan was replaced by Matt Williams. With the benefits of hindsight and historical perspective, that exchange seems ludicrous now. A knight for a nightmare, you could say.

So if you want Townsend to move on then be careful what you wish for. There is no queue of budding young Scottish coaches waiting to take over. Call Taxi for Townsend if you like, but remember Joni Mitchell’s big yellow one. As Joni put it: ‘Don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you got till it’s gone’.

[Tichtheid]

Paddy Harrison penned his first full time contract the other day - 4 years with Edinburgh.

There was talk of Ewan Ashman coming to Edinburgh - that would be a great pairing to have at the club, Rambo is 33 in the summer and his injuries are becoming a worry. Cherry has just turned 32, these guys won't be around forever.

Harri Morris has made the shift to hooker and though I've never seen him play I've read good things about him.

[Tichtheid]

Unavailable: Luke Crosbie, Matt Currie, Chris Dean, Wes Goosen, Darcy Graham, Damien Hoyland, James Lang, Stuart McInally, Ben Muncaster, Harry Paterson, Pierce Phillips, Duhan van der Merwe, Hamish Watson, Angus Williams.

[robmatic]

I presume Jaco has pissed in Blair's chips since he isn't even getting on the bench these days.

[Tichtheid]

I presume Jaco has pissed in Blair's chips since he isn't even getting on the bench these days.

He was an unused sub last week, but with Boff and Kinghorn on the park we have our first choice kicker starting plus our first choice stand off to call on if Savala gets injured.


We'll need to see serious improvement across the whole team to stand a chance on Sunday

[Tichtheid]

[weegie01]

Unavailable: Luke Crosbie, Matt Currie, Chris Dean, Wes Goosen, Darcy Graham, Damien Hoyland, James Lang, Stuart McInally, Ben Muncaster, Harry Paterson, Pierce Phillips, Duhan van der Merwe, Hamish Watson, Angus Williams.

I seen to be the only person who does not think Vellacott added anything when he came on against Zebre. The subs as a whole stepped up the pace, but Vellacott was no quicker than Shiel at getting the ball away, made no breaks and his box kicking was no better (disregarding the one Shiel put out on the full). So I am glad to see him starting again.

I'm less impressed with de Bruin starting. My scrummaging advisor, i.e. my ex TH son, does not rate him at all. Said son cannot get his head round why McCallum has not been picked up when de Bruin is getting starts. He is a long time chum of McCallum and is well aware that McCallum was never the fittest player around at Edinburgh and Glasgow. But he sorted himself out at Worcester, and became very decent indeed. Becoming a Dad has also helped. He thinks McCallum is being judged on his past rather than what he is capable of now.