2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[OomStruisbaai]

Another red?

[ASMO]

In many ways, this year is highlighting that (probably Saracens excepted) the Premiership teams are really poor quality compared to the Saffer, French and URC teams. We are just not as good as we think we are, and this is being reflected in the national side. In reality how many top tier international standard players do England really have?

How to say you've not watched the French teams this season without watching the French teams this season...

The 9th best team in England with a weakened side getting gubbed by a top South African side says very little about the premiership.

Outside of Saracens - Tigers are 3 wins from 3, Exeter qualified with 2 from 3, Quins are 1 from 2 (that one being Paris St Germain - sorry, Racing 92), and the only actual disappointments / surprises have been Saints and Sale.

Lyon, Bordeaux, Racing, Castres, Clermont, Montpellier have played 16 matches in total and won 2. French sides really aren't showing us up this season.

French teams are clearly not interested that much in Europe, but when they are interested, they can compete with the best. Apart from Saracens, realisticly which other English team are going to be close to a semi final spot.

[ASMO]

Wonder how Les Kiss is going to try to excuse this.

[JM2K6]

Yep, another red. There's going to be a lot of crying about the laws - blame the coaches and the players. Stop doing the things that lead to massive head contact.

He had absolutely no need to do that. By the time he smashed the guy in the head, he didn't even have the ball.

[JM2K6]

In many ways, this year is highlighting that (probably Saracens excepted) the Premiership teams are really poor quality compared to the Saffer, French and URC teams. We are just not as good as we think we are, and this is being reflected in the national side. In reality how many top tier international standard players do England really have?

How to say you've not watched the French teams this season without watching the French teams this season...

The 9th best team in England with a weakened side getting gubbed by a top South African side says very little about the premiership.

Outside of Saracens - Tigers are 3 wins from 3, Exeter qualified with 2 from 3, Quins are 1 from 2 (that one being Paris St Germain - sorry, Racing 92), and the only actual disappointments / surprises have been Saints and Sale.

Lyon, Bordeaux, Racing, Castres, Clermont, Montpellier have played 16 matches in total and won 2. French sides really aren't showing us up this season.

French teams are clearly not interested that much in Europe, but when they are interested, they can compete with the best. Apart from Saracens, realisticly which other English team are going to be close to a semi final spot.

Leicester? They've done just as well as Saracens. Exeter have the personnel to trouble most teams.

The URC is regularly carried on the back of Leinster. Munster look okay and it's pleasing to see a welsh side be something other than cannon fodder, but this season is absolutely bizarre and I certainly wouldn't be using what's a fairly complex set of results and performances to be making wide ranging arguments about the quality of teams and international standard players in each league.

The French sides getting a pass from you despite most of them being dogshit in Europe kind of makes the point!

[JM2K6]

Bit of a dive from the Stormers 12 there!

[ASMO]

Yep, another red. There's going to be a lot of crying about the laws - blame the coaches and the players. Stop doing the things that lead to massive head contact.

He had absolutely no need to do that. By the time he smashed the guy in the head, he didn't even have the ball.

Maybe they need to make the bans far more punitive, and fine the clubs if they breach a predefined threshold.

[OomStruisbaai]

Was that a trip? Red it should be

[JM2K6]

Yep, another red. There's going to be a lot of crying about the laws - blame the coaches and the players. Stop doing the things that lead to massive head contact.

He had absolutely no need to do that. By the time he smashed the guy in the head, he didn't even have the ball.

Maybe they need to make the bans far more punitive, and fine the clubs if they breach a predefined threshold.

It's clear that there needs to be a concerted effort by world rugby to explain how things need to change, including how players should be behaving at rucks, how clean outs are supposed to be performed, and how they should be coached to do these things.

[JM2K6]

Was that a trip? Red it should be

No, it was a dive.

Also trips haven't been a red card for a very long time

[OomStruisbaai]

Ginga gets yellow.

[ASMO]

How to say you've not watched the French teams this season without watching the French teams this season...

The 9th best team in England with a weakened side getting gubbed by a top South African side says very little about the premiership.

Outside of Saracens - Tigers are 3 wins from 3, Exeter qualified with 2 from 3, Quins are 1 from 2 (that one being Paris St Germain - sorry, Racing 92), and the only actual disappointments / surprises have been Saints and Sale.

Lyon, Bordeaux, Racing, Castres, Clermont, Montpellier have played 16 matches in total and won 2. French sides really aren't showing us up this season.

French teams are clearly not interested that much in Europe, but when they are interested, they can compete with the best. Apart from Saracens, realisticly which other English team are going to be close to a semi final spot.

Leicester? They've done just as well as Saracens. Exeter have the personnel to trouble most teams.

The URC is regularly carried on the back of Leinster. Munster look okay and it's pleasing to see a welsh side be something other than cannon fodder, but this season is absolutely bizarre and I certainly wouldn't be using what's a fairly complex set of results and performances to be making wide ranging arguments about the quality of teams and international standard players in each league.

The French sides getting a pass from you despite most of them being dogshit in Europe kind of makes the point!

Not giving the French a pass at all, it is no secret that Europe is not a priority for them and they put out weaker teams until the knockout stages.

Why is it though that there has been 1 NH RWC winner in the history of the comp? It cannot be luck or coincidence, what is the point of difference between us and them? Not funding, we are far richer not numbers, we have more players, not resources, we have world class facilities, not talent, we have equally talented players,so what is it? It can only be structure.

[OomStruisbaai]

Stormers should clean their bench.

[sockwithaticket]

Every time i see a replay of the JOD assault (i use the word advisedly) the worse it looks. He knew exactly what he was doing, that was clearly a deliberate shot to the head. He has his eyes locked on Ribbans head and drove that shoulder into his head with force, he could have easily pulled out of that, there was plenty of time to pull out, but he chose not to.

Bolded the only bit I'd disagree with. I really don't think any* player ever does this, the fact it was aimed straight at his head is more JOD's stupidity/inaccuracy. However, he certainly deliberately tucked his arm, led with the shoulder and intended to deliver with force - I think in situation like this, regardless of whether there is head contact or not, the starting point should be a red card! Leading with the shoulder is incredibly common these days, going unpunished several times in each and every game. It needs stamping out sharpish!


*There's always an exception

Is there a clip of this?

In case I've fucked up linking the time stamp the incident starts at 2:06

[Torquemada 1420]

Another expert prediction by PR (also ignored): Newcastle by 3

[JM2K6]

Not giving the French a pass at all, it is no secret that Europe is not a priority for them and they put out weaker teams until the knockout stages.

Eh quite a few of their losses have been with strong teams, and often against teams missing a lot of players. It IS giving them a pass.

Why is it though that there has been 1 NH RWC winner in the history of the comp? It cannot be luck or coincidence, what is the point of difference between us and them? Not funding, we are far richer not numbers, we have more players, not resources, we have world class facilities, not talent, we have equally talented players,so what is it? It can only be structure.

This is getting wildly away from the original point about the URC & French being so superior to us. We are, after all, that 1 NH country that's won a world cup. Ireland's structure is superb and they've never even won a world cup knockout match. France lost one that could've gone either way with one or two different decisions. England shit the bed with their change in approach in 91 and had they stuck to their guns would've been favourites to win that one. Most world cups have been won by teams who've put together a team of generational talents.

Clearly it's a complicated question and there's a lot there to do with what each country does to prepare teams for international rugby and what our domestic game looks like.

The pressures on domestic club rugby in England are completely different to the pressures on domestic club rugby in New Zealand. The financial realities of the sport in both countries are completely different. The opportunites for young athletes look completely different. The availability of decent coaching and playing opportunities for kids in both countries look completely different (and not in England's favour, fwiw).

It doesn't matter how much money is in the game if running a rugby club is a financial disaster. English clubs paying attention to the salary cap cannot put together a team to the same standard of talent as the top French sides, Leinster, or the Super Rugby franchises. Rugby in this country is largely an amateur affair and it shows, and the top end is a large number of sides with a lot of history trying to make a fist of providing a professional game that brings in fans and viewers while also developing players for the international team. All of this against the background of being a minority sport compared to the behemoth that is Premiership football plus all the social and economic factors that prevent a lot of potentially superb players from ever joining the sport.

What I can say with great confidence is that the 9th place Premiership side getting gubbed by a Super Rugby team says absolutely fucking nothing about anything. What does the 9th best Saffer Super Rugby team look like? Oh, right - it doesn't. They don't have one.

[PornDog]

Every time i see a replay of the JOD assault (i use the word advisedly) the worse it looks. He knew exactly what he was doing, that was clearly a deliberate shot to the head. He has his eyes locked on Ribbans head and drove that shoulder into his head with force, he could have easily pulled out of that, there was plenty of time to pull out, but he chose not to.

Bolded the only bit I'd disagree with. I really don't think any* player ever does this, the fact it was aimed straight at his head is more JOD's stupidity/inaccuracy. However, he certainly deliberately tucked his arm, led with the shoulder and intended to deliver with force - I think in situation like this, regardless of whether there is head contact or not, the starting point should be a red card! Leading with the shoulder is incredibly common these days, going unpunished several times in each and every game. It needs stamping out sharpish!


*There's always an exception

Is there a clip of this?

Just as part of the highlights -

[JM2K6]

Haha, looks like Ben White was robbed of a try by the ref not knowing the laws. Nice.

[OomStruisbaai]

LExiles want to win the fight now. Stormers practice their defense

[JM2K6]

The Cunningham-South / Pearson partnership is going to be a lot of fun to watch in future

[JM2K6]

I will say I've been talking about Irish like they've copped an absolute hiding, but... they've conceded a penalty try that wasn't, had two players sent off (correctly), had a try not given thanks to the ref missing it, and the score is still only 28-14.

It's not exactly a humiliation.

[JM2K6]

Blind ref watches a player drop the ball over the line and gives the try immediately

[Torquemada 1420]

Lyon, Bordeaux, Racing, Castres, Clermont, Montpellier have played 16 matches in total and won 2. French sides really aren't showing us up this season.

All kinds of moving parts here methinks. In the early days of the supermercs (Paris, then RCT etc), their might was created by wealth. They simply bought success. El galacticos and so on. Finally, the FFR and LNR recognised this was killing Fra at intl level and the JIFF rules really have worked here: Fra has the best crop of players pretty much anyone can remember. However, the coaching remains of a particularly poor standard: it's no coincidence that LaR has been coached by foreigners.

Meantime, in this transition, some big names have failed to adapt. Badly. Most notably ASM and RCT. Toulouse and latterly Paris too but they hit rock bottom earlier and had no choice but to change. The only 3 teams to be worried about currently are Toulouse, LaR and Paris (and they are farting around with Europe).

Racing are the odd one out here. They've still chucked money around old style like Guazzini did but are undermined by having Bath-itis. LOU have blown their project due to mismanagement and UBB by player power eating the heart of the place from inside out. The rest are perma also rans to relegation battle perpetuals with only Bayonne punching above weight.

The Fre sides are pretty much where I expected them to be. I know some will be surprised by Racing and rugby-cancer Montpellier, but I am not with the latter playing stuff that a 1980s CC side would have considered backward.

{EDIT} Sorry. I guess what I am trying to say is there are a lot of decent players around but very few decent teams.

[JM2K6]

Well done Stormers. Nowhere near as impressive in the 2nd half - playing against 13 probably made them think the job was done - but still an excellent overall performance. It does raise some questions about their ruthlessness though.

[weegie01]

Yep, another red. There's going to be a lot of crying about the laws - blame the coaches and the players. Stop doing the things that lead to massive head contact.

He had absolutely no need to do that. By the time he smashed the guy in the head, he didn't even have the ball.

Maybe they need to make the bans far more punitive, and fine the clubs if they breach a predefined threshold.

There was an incident in the Castres game where the castres player came flying into the ruck and caught Jamie Ritchie head to head, knocking himslef out. Call me callous, but it should still have been a red for head on head.

[ASMO]

The pressures on domestic club rugby in England are completely different to the pressures on domestic club rugby in New Zealand. The financial realities of the sport in both countries are completely different. The opportunites for young athletes look completely different. The availability of decent coaching and playing opportunities for kids in both countries look completely different (and not in England's favour, fwiw).

It doesn't matter how much money is in the game if running a rugby club is a financial disaster. English clubs paying attention to the salary cap cannot put together a team to the same standard of talent as the top French sides, Leinster, or the Super Rugby franchises. Rugby in this country is largely an amateur affair and it shows, and the top end is a large number of sides with a lot of history trying to make a fist of providing a professional game that brings in fans and viewers while also developing players for the international team. All of this against the background of being a minority sport compared to the behemoth that is Premiership football plus all the social and economic factors that prevent a lot of potentially superb players from ever joining the sport.

But is that over analysing it? Serious question.

Having less teams a la NZ, SA, Australia meaning the quality is not so diluted could be the key here. Getting top quality players playing alongside other top quality players can only benefit everyone. Building combinations at club level. Having a highly talented player surrounded by journeymen cannot help their development in any way. Arundel for example wont flourish at a struggling team like Irish, put him in a team like Saracens, the sky is the limit.

[JM2K6]

Chalk up another defeat for a winless French side. Edinburgh win away at Castres.

Cheers for the detail Torq - I certainly did think it would be more complicated than "ah, they just don't care".

I'm sure Racing will put on a show at home and I don't think a half fit Marcus Smith and the Quins walking wounded will challenge them.

[Jock42]

Yep, another red. There's going to be a lot of crying about the laws - blame the coaches and the players. Stop doing the things that lead to massive head contact.

He had absolutely no need to do that. By the time he smashed the guy in the head, he didn't even have the ball.

Maybe they need to make the bans far more punitive, and fine the clubs if they breach a predefined threshold.

There was an incident in the Castres game where the castres player came flying into the ruck and caught Jamie Ritchie head to head, knocking himslef out. Call me callous, but it should still have been a red for head on head.

Did that not happen to Geoff Cross v Wales?

[ASMO]

Chalk up another defeat for a winless French side. Edinburgh win away at Castres.

Cheers for the detail Torq - I certainly did think it would be more complicated than "ah, they just don't care".

I'm sure Racing will put on a show at home and I don't think a half fit Marcus Smith and the Quins walking wounded will challenge them.

It will be interesting if scab does include Smith in his squad, Ford hasnt played anything either so i guess Farrell is fav for the 10 spot, but who is the backup?

[JM2K6]

The pressures on domestic club rugby in England are completely different to the pressures on domestic club rugby in New Zealand. The financial realities of the sport in both countries are completely different. The opportunites for young athletes look completely different. The availability of decent coaching and playing opportunities for kids in both countries look completely different (and not in England's favour, fwiw).

It doesn't matter how much money is in the game if running a rugby club is a financial disaster. English clubs paying attention to the salary cap cannot put together a team to the same standard of talent as the top French sides, Leinster, or the Super Rugby franchises. Rugby in this country is largely an amateur affair and it shows, and the top end is a large number of sides with a lot of history trying to make a fist of providing a professional game that brings in fans and viewers while also developing players for the international team. All of this against the background of being a minority sport compared to the behemoth that is Premiership football plus all the social and economic factors that prevent a lot of potentially superb players from ever joining the sport.

But is that over analysing it? Serious question.

Having less teams a la NZ, SA, Australia meaning the quality is not so diluted could be the key here. Getting top quality players playing alongside other top quality players can only benefit everyone. Building combinations at club level. Having a highly talented player surrounded by journeymen cannot help their development in any way. Arundel for example wont flourish at a struggling team like Irish, put him in a team like Saracens, the sky is the limit.

Is the health of a professional sport based entirely on whether the national side wins the most? Or is providing a good living to as many people as possible actually something that's being ignored here? You scratch the surface of NZ rugby and there's a semi-pro level with guys who can't make a living playing rugby. Is that healthy? NZ are dogshit at football, and rugby is their national obsession, with endless playing spaces available to any kid who wants to run around and a great pool of natural talent uniquely suited to rugby thanks to being a pacific island - why are we pretending it's an easy direct comparison?

I'm sure that English "franchises" would do better in Europe with concentrated talent. Is that all that matters here? Maybe Arundell would do better at Saracens and would be there in a franchise system. What about all the other talents who would find no space in those few teams? What keeps them in professional rugby in this country, given all the alternatives and other opportunities available to them? Why is killing off most of the historical sides in the country that are the reason why professional rugby has been any kind of success and have (in most cases) long standing ties to the local communities a preferred outcome?

I think our structure falls down at the championship level. Championship rugby teams are largely (but not completely) professional and some of them think they're Premiership sides who're just unlucky, but they're delusional. They get no fans, they would go bankrupt trying to pay Premiership wages, and they're basically a moribund version of professional rugby that has no real future and is not doing anything useful for The Structure. That's where I would focus any change - I would much rather they were an official feeder league for Premiership sides, aping the NZ system a little bit - but again that involves dramatically fucking with several businesses, hundreds of careers and livelihoods, etc etc.

Once again, no idea what any of that has to do with one of the worst Premiership teams losing to the URC champions.

[weegie01]

Maybe they need to make the bans far more punitive, and fine the clubs if they breach a predefined threshold.

There was an incident in the Castres game where the castres player came flying into the ruck and caught Jamie Ritchie head to head, knocking himslef out. Call me callous, but it should still have been a red for head on head.

Did that not happen to Geoff Cross v Wales?

Good point, it did indeed. The ref sent him but did not wave the card as I recall.

[JM2K6]

Chalk up another defeat for a winless French side. Edinburgh win away at Castres.

Cheers for the detail Torq - I certainly did think it would be more complicated than "ah, they just don't care".

I'm sure Racing will put on a show at home and I don't think a half fit Marcus Smith and the Quins walking wounded will challenge them.

It will be interesting if scab does include Smith in his squad, Ford hasnt played anything either so i guess Farrell is fav for the 10 spot, but who is the backup?

I wouldn't be surprised if Fin Smith got a shout as cover, but I think there's no real risk of anyone who isn't part of the main 3 actually getting into a squad. I think as England fans the best we can hope for is for Farrell to start (and not finish) until Ford/Smith are considered match fit enough to play.

[weegie01]

Not the thread for it, but one of the issues for England (and France) to me is that they have only one national side. Which means that there is less international income relative to the playing base compared to Scotland, Wales and Ireland (I have no idea about the SH).

I am pretty sure the RFU makes more off international rugby than the others, but it has to spread that money much farther so its impact on rugby as a whole in England is less.

This is based on no analysis whatsoever, but it is the impression I get.

[Paddington Bear]

Irish should be commended for the fight they put up.

Really bored of explaining away red cards. The second one in particular was one of the dumbest pieces of rugby I’ve seen in a while. It is better to allow the oppo one phase of clean ball than lose a player, are these players truly thick?

[JM2K6]

For Christ's sake. Dallaglio is really uninformed. No, there isn't a good balance to the Quins back row with Kenningham and Evans, because Kenningham has been injured for a while and we're starting Luke Wallace. No, Quins haven't been losing recently because of the conditions, we've been losing because we've been putting out vastly weakened teams thanks to a run of injuries, our centres have been out of form, and our discipline has been poor.

Nice to see a few starting to return, Lewies (club captain) was looking like injury retirement territory, and of course Smith is a huge upgrade but it's a big ask given he's not played a minute since the AIs

[sockwithaticket]

BT laying it on thick about the attacking capabilities of these two sides, so expect an error-strewn scrumfest.

[OomStruisbaai]

Well done Stormers. Nowhere near as impressive in the 2nd half - playing against 13 probably made them think the job was done - but still an excellent overall performance. It does raise some questions about their ruthlessness though.

Cheers Boet. Credit to LI to never stop playing. Disappointed 2nd half by the Stormers. They should never stop playing running rugby. Look like they decided to give LI all the possession and then defend them and waiting for mistakes.

Expect our Boks will get their last run against Clermont and try to get as high as possible on the log. The 3 teams above them is still unbeaten.

[JM2K6]

Not the thread for it, but one of the issues for England (and France) to me is that they have only one national side. Which means that there is less international income relative to the playing base compared to Scotland, Wales and Ireland (I have no idea about the SH).

I am pretty sure the RFU makes more off international rugby than the others, but it has to spread that money much farther so its impact on rugby as a whole in England is less.

This is based on no analysis whatsoever, but it is the impression I get.

That's a really good point. Although I suppose the counter argument is that as they're individual businesses, a lot of the cost of maintaining professional rugby is on the shoulders of the clubs, not the RFU.

It's a weird and wide-ranging argument though that always requires too many assumptions and too many strongly held priors. For example, Australia's historical record at world cups is amazing. But they last won a world cup 24 years ago. Their Super Rugby sides recently lost something like 80 matches in a row against NZ teams. The Rugby Championship has existed since 2012, and they've won it once. Lumping everything into NH vs SH or Premiership vs URC v Top 14 or whatever ignores that the picture of domestic and international teams for each country is a complicated one.

Interesting start to this game - Racing draw first blood. Some mad offloads already.

[OomStruisbaai]

Gelant putting the 13 in for the try for Racing

[JM2K6]

Well done Stormers. Nowhere near as impressive in the 2nd half - playing against 13 probably made them think the job was done - but still an excellent overall performance. It does raise some questions about their ruthlessness though.

Cheers Boet. Credit to LI to never stop playing. Disappointed 2nd half by the Stormers. They should never stop playing running rugby. Look like they decided to give LI all the possession and then defend them and waiting for mistakes.

Expect our Boks will get their last run against Clermont and try to get as high as possible on the log. The 3 teams above them is still unbeaten.

While obviously I don't want the SA sides in the competition, I won't pretend some of them aren't playing excellent rugby. It's not the boring 10 man stuff I think some people expected, but the attacking quality and desire to stress their skills has surprised me. I mean it as a compliment, but some of these teams play more like NZ teams than anything else.