2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

2 red cards for the Saints , good job

On current form, Hastoy and Berdeu are both miles ahead of Ntamack.

[Marylandolorian]

+1


Glaws vs. Bordeaux for me now. Expect Leinster vs. Racing to result in a comfortable Leinster win.

Same, even with a win Bordeaux won’t qualify but it should be a nice game.

[JM2K6]

Good game, Quins worth the win.

I hope this brings some around to having the South African teams in the competition, the URC and Heine are the better for having them.

Nah, fuck em.

Damn right, it’s still the European Champions Cup isn’t it?

Exactly. Some of their teams play good rugby? Big whoop. The tournament format is stupid as fuck as a result, the travel is ridiculous, and it's stretching smaller squads far too far to expect them to play against these sides on top of all the other demands.

Just because they threw themselves out of their natural home of Super Rugby, doesn't mean we should destroy our own competition to invite them in while making life harder for ourselves.

Enjoyed today's win (and performance) but it's meaningless nonsense.

[OomStruisbaai]

Sharks got that important bonus point. Nearly got a second one.

I like the playing style of Quins. Nice to watch.

[OomStruisbaai]

Nah, fuck em.

Damn right, it’s still the European Champions Cup isn’t it?

Exactly. Some of their teams play good rugby? Big whoop. The tournament format is stupid as fuck as a result, the travel is ridiculous, and it's stretching smaller squads far too far to expect them to play against these sides on top of all the other demands.

Just because they threw themselves out of their natural home of Super Rugby, doesn't mean we should destroy our own competition to invite them in while making life harder for ourselves.

Enjoyed today's win (and performance) but it's meaningless nonsense.

South Africa should chuck the European Cups. We don't need this kak. Play URC and Currie Cup.

[_Os_]

I think that Quins win underlines the importance of home ground advantage and why it's unlikely any SA team will win it.

The Sharks performance was overall okay I thought, some areas need improvement but it wasn't so terrible that a similar performance couldn't have got a win on another day. Good match and well done Quins.

[JM2K6]

Sexton makes those cross kicks look so easy. Wish Marcus had that particular talent.

[OomStruisbaai]

I think that Quins win underlines the importance of home ground advantage and why it's unlikely any SA team will win it.

The Sharks performance was overall okay I thought, some areas need improvement but it wasn't so terrible that a similar performance couldn't have got a win on another day. Good match and well done Quins.

The travelling is shite. We should quit this European Leagues. It's low quality rugby coming from GPS and T14.

[Torquemada 1420]

Jalibert v Ntamack

[sockwithaticket]

Screamer of a counterattacking try by Bordeaux.

[JM2K6]

Gorgeous try by Leinster to end Racing's 15 minutes of giving a shit

[fishfoodie]

Sexton makes those cross kicks look so easy. Wish Marcus had that particular talent.

It's especially impressive doing it from that stands

[JM2K6]

Sexton makes those cross kicks look so easy. Wish Marcus had that particular talent.

It's especially impressive doing it from that stands

Hah, good spot. It's kinda mad how similar a phsyical style he has.

[ASMO]

Rapava Ruskin has everything, some superb distribution, worthy of Marcus Smith.

[JM2K6]

Sexton makes those cross kicks look so easy. Wish Marcus had that particular talent.

It's especially impressive doing it from that stands

Hah, good spot. It's kinda mad how similar a phsyical style he has.

Byrne also recognises my error and puts in an absolutely dogshit cross kick that leads to a yellow card against his team.

[_Os_]

Just because they threw themselves out of their natural home of Super Rugby

The Aussies always wanted us out of Super Rugby, the Kiwis always said that would be madness then they changed leadership and agreed with the Aussies. Then they both couldn't agree what structure Super Rugby should have without us and took lumps out of eachother.

No doubt Kiwis (but probably not Aussies because they're more happy we're gone) would disagree with that version of events. But it's a stretch to claim SA alone ended Super Rugby as it was.

There's also an argument that it's more "natural" SA is playing in Europe, it's the same time zone (always the Aussie argument for us not belonging in Super Rugby), before the Suez Canal SA was the half way point between Europe and Asia and that has left its mark in terms of trade and cultural links to Europe that still exists today. Multiple European countries are more important to SA in terms of trade than Nigeria or Egypt (the other two similar sized economies to SA in Africa), despite being further away. A quarter of the world's population will be African by 2050, they'll all be in the same time zone as Europe and closer to Europe on the map than any other comparable large population centre (South Asia and East Asia). A close engagement between Europe (who will still have the money) and Africa (who will have the people for the first time in history), seems inevitable to me, especially now China is undermining the reasons for Western investment into China. It's probably the fate of the two continents to be connected. Rugby could just be very far ahead of the curve.

[JM2K6]

Just because they threw themselves out of their natural home of Super Rugby

The Aussies always wanted us out of Super Rugby, the Kiwis always said that would be madness then they changed leadership and agreed with the Aussies. Then they both couldn't agree what structure Super Rugby should have without us and took lumps out of eachother.

No doubt Kiwis (but probably not Aussies because they're more happy we're gone) would disagree with that version of events. But it's a stretch to claim SA alone ended Super Rugby as it was.

There's also an argument that it's more "natural" SA is playing in Europe, it's the same time zone (always the Aussie argument for us not belonging in Super Rugby), before the Suez Canal SA was the half way point between Europe and Asia and that has left its mark in terms of trade and cultural links to Europe that still exists today. Multiple European countries are more important to SA in terms of trade than Nigeria or Egypt (the other two similar sized economies to SA in Africa), despite being further away. A quarter of the world's population will be African by 2050, they'll all be in the same time zone as Europe and closer to Europe on the map than any other comparable large population centre (South Asia and East Asia). A close engagement between Europe (who will still have the money) and Africa (who will have the people for the first time in history), seems inevitable to me, especially now China is undermining the reasons for Western investment into China. It's probably the fate of the two continents to be connected. Rugby could just be very far ahead of the curve.

I admit to being a little bit economical with the truth there. I appreciate the Super Rugby saga was far more complex than that.

I would argue that the natural home is the one you have all the history with - and in rugby, that's with the Kiwis and Aussies. Timezone is not the argument here. European rugby places a premium on being a spectator sport and the vast distances the Saffer sides add are a big blow to that; why not stay in the tournament where everyone has the same issue and it's consistent?

I would also argue that too much fucking with the format has badly damaged Super Rugby and The Rugby Championship. So I definitely don't see the value in such a massive change to the European format to accomodate non-European teams, who stand to benefit far more from it than we do.

[Torquemada 1420]

Just because they threw themselves out of their natural home of Super Rugby

It was never a natural home. Geographically, time zone and even style of rugby means SA always had far more in common than Europe. I;m not saying that this justifies their inclusion now: just that I think you are wrong on this point.

[JM2K6]

Disagree on the style. SA rugby had a lot in common with the Kiwis back in the day, and for a period all 3 3N sides were playing a type of rugby largely alien to NH sides (also in terms of quality, tbf).

Geographically, they're miles away mate. Durban is like 13,000 km from Twickenham. Not exactly Italy are they

[Torquemada 1420]

Bordeaux's discipline is dire.

[sockwithaticket]

Blatant one handed slap down preventing a break into the 22 and Frank Murphy has to be nudged by his TMO into giving more than a penalty. Bordeaux down to 13 for a bit, can Glaws actually do something with their territory and possession?

Edit - no, they flub the lineout. Twice.

[OomStruisbaai]

Just because they threw themselves out of their natural home of Super Rugby

The Aussies always wanted us out of Super Rugby, the Kiwis always said that would be madness then they changed leadership and agreed with the Aussies. Then they both couldn't agree what structure Super Rugby should have without us and took lumps out of eachother.

No doubt Kiwis (but probably not Aussies because they're more happy we're gone) would disagree with that version of events. But it's a stretch to claim SA alone ended Super Rugby as it was.

There's also an argument that it's more "natural" SA is playing in Europe, it's the same time zone (always the Aussie argument for us not belonging in Super Rugby), before the Suez Canal SA was the half way point between Europe and Asia and that has left its mark in terms of trade and cultural links to Europe that still exists today. Multiple European countries are more important to SA in terms of trade than Nigeria or Egypt (the other two similar sized economies to SA in Africa), despite being further away. A quarter of the world's population will be African by 2050, they'll all be in the same time zone as Europe and closer to Europe on the map than any other comparable large population centre (South Asia and East Asia). A close engagement between Europe (who will still have the money) and Africa (who will have the people for the first time in history), seems inevitable to me, especially now China is undermining the reasons for Western investment into China. It's probably the fate of the two continents to be connected. Rugby could just be very far ahead of the curve.

I admit to being a little bit economical with the truth there. I appreciate the Super Rugby saga was far more complex than that.

I would argue that the natural home is the one you have all the history with - and in rugby, that's with the Kiwis and Aussies. Timezone is not the argument here. European rugby places a premium on being a spectator sport and the vast distances the Saffer sides add are a big blow to that; why not stay in the tournament where everyone has the same issue and it's consistent?

I would also argue that too much fucking with the format has badly damaged Super Rugby and The Rugby Championship. So I definitely don't see the value in such a massive change to the European format to accomodate non-European teams, who stand to benefit far more from it than we do.

We benefit vokol. In fact until 2025 it cost us R400 million with no TV revenue. That's the price Saru pay to get us in the competitions.

So climb off your vokken high horse. We do you a favor until 2025.

[JM2K6]

We benefit vokol. In fact until 2025 it cost us R400 million with no TV revenue. That's the price Saru pay to get us in the competitions.

So climb off your vokken high horse. We do you a favor until 2025.

We're doing you the favour of having a competition to play in to expose your teams to rugby outside of your own borders. And probably the favour of allowing some of those players to pick up proper contracts as a result of the exposure. You're doing us no favours at all - we don't benefit at all from this. It's a negative to have to play against SA sides in this tournament.

Leinster making heavy weather of things so far.

[ASMO]

Gloicester just rubbish, nearly as rubbish as Frank Murphy. What is it with ex pro players being most of the worst referees

[sockwithaticket]

Gloucester giving a clinic on how to squander a two man advantage.

[Torquemada 1420]

Disagree on the style. SA rugby had a lot in common with the Kiwis back in the day, and for a period all 3 3N sides were playing a type of rugby largely alien to NH sides (also in terms of quality, tbf).

Geographically, they're miles away mate. Durban is like 13,000 km from Twickenham. Not exactly Italy are they

You claiming SA played attractive rugby? When? Note, we are talking club rugby here, not intl.

Durban is still closer to Paris than Wellington but it's more the impact of jetlag over timezones that was the killer for SA sides.

[sockwithaticket]

Gloicester just rubbish, nearly as rubbish as Frank Murphy. What is it with ex pro players being most of the worst referees

They get fast tracked by their unions before they've honed their craft in lower leagues.

[sockwithaticket]

Disagree on the style. SA rugby had a lot in common with the Kiwis back in the day, and for a period all 3 3N sides were playing a type of rugby largely alien to NH sides (also in terms of quality, tbf).

Geographically, they're miles away mate. Durban is like 13,000 km from Twickenham. Not exactly Italy are they

You claiming SA played attractive rugby? When? Note, we are talking club rugby here, not intl.

Durban is still closer to Paris than Wellington but it's more the impact of jetlag over timezones that was the killer for SA sides.

I dimly remember seeing some nice stuff from the Stormers on the TV in our school gym back in 05/06

[JM2K6]

I'm claiming that before NZ played the fancy shit they were a brutal breakdown-focused team (that NH sides were decades behind on) with an excellent kicking game, i.e. immediately prior to Dan Carter and for a long time before that too, which is quite a bit of the history of the sport. Even after that the NZ forwards and SA forwards were often the best in the business with a similar attitude to the single most important aspect of the game.

And I don't give a shit about the jetlag for SA sides - everyone in Soup & 3N/RC was in the same boat and everyone was able to plan a tour that took it into account. Vastly different to having to fly out to SA for one match.

[OomStruisbaai]

We benefit vokol. In fact until 2025 it cost us R400 million with no TV revenue. That's the price Saru pay to get us in the competitions.

So climb off your vokken high horse. We do you a favor until 2025.

We're doing you the favour of having a competition to play in to expose your teams to rugby outside of your own borders. And probably the favour of allowing some of those players to pick up proper contracts as a result of the exposure. You're doing us no favours at all - we don't benefit at all from this. It's a negative to have to play against SA sides in this tournament.

Leinster making heavy weather of things so far.

Ja the biggest negative when you lost. I understand where you coming from

[Torquemada 1420]

Gloicester just rubbish, nearly as rubbish as Frank Murphy. What is it with ex pro players being most of the worst referees

Disagree. Murphy is a good ref. Never had any complaints with him officiating game involving Fre sides where, unlike too many others, there is no bias. What has he got wrong today?

[sockwithaticket]

Gloicester just rubbish, nearly as rubbish as Frank Murphy. What is it with ex pro players being most of the worst referees

Disagree. Murphy is a good ref. Never had any complaints with him officiating game involving Fre sides where, unlike too many others, there is no bias. What has he got wrong today?

He was looking right at a ruck where a Bordeaux player made veyr forceful head on head contact with Varney. That's almost certainly going to be cited, looks very ugly on replay.

[JM2K6]

for club stuff in particular, watch Crusaders v Sharks at Twickenham from ages ago and tell me which NH sides were playing like the Sharks. Or watch the Stormers from 7-10 years ago. Or watch the Lions side that got to the final, who played like no NH side I could think of at the time (Quins might have an argument about that now, along with a couple of others). But the key word here is "club". English clubs are not Saffer provincial sides, and it's mad to pretend they are anything alike. Better for a provincial franchise to be in a provincial franchise tournament.

[JM2K6]

We benefit vokol. In fact until 2025 it cost us R400 million with no TV revenue. That's the price Saru pay to get us in the competitions.

So climb off your vokken high horse. We do you a favor until 2025.

We're doing you the favour of having a competition to play in to expose your teams to rugby outside of your own borders. And probably the favour of allowing some of those players to pick up proper contracts as a result of the exposure. You're doing us no favours at all - we don't benefit at all from this. It's a negative to have to play against SA sides in this tournament.

Leinster making heavy weather of things so far.

Ja the biggest negative when you lost. I understand where you coming from

I don't know if you're insulting me or actually agreeing with me. We definitely have lost out by adding the SA franchises - meanwhile it solves a problem for SA.

If you mean "when you lost" as meaning "on the pitch", my team beat the all-star Sharks today quite comfortably so that clearly does not make a difference.

[_Os_]

I would argue that the natural home is the one you have all the history with - and in rugby, that's with the Kiwis and Aussies. Timezone is not the argument here. European rugby places a premium on being a spectator sport and the vast distances the Saffer sides add are a big blow to that; why not stay in the tournament where everyone has the same issue and it's consistent?

I don't really disagree, but it's not our choice alone if we're in Super Rugby. SA fans are entirely over Super Rugby now from what I hear and read, as I said the cultural links to Europe in SA aren't insignificant (and it's not just a white thing, a lot of country closely follows English football), average people just know a lot more about the UK or other European countries than they do about African countries outside Southern Africa. I'm not passing judgement on that, I'm just saying it's a fact. It's turned out to be really easy for SA fans to switch from Super Rugby to watching SA teams in European competitions.

I would also argue that too much fucking with the format has badly damaged Super Rugby and The Rugby Championship. So I definitely don't see the value in such a massive change to the European format to accomodate non-European teams, who stand to benefit far more from it than we do.

I don't think it's true we're adding nothing, or SA teams wouldn't be there. I could agree that it was unknown what if anything SA teams would add, and it's still to be determined though.

I'm starting to think the English have replaced the Aussies with the demands we be removed from the competition.

[OomStruisbaai]

for club stuff in particular, watch Crusaders v Sharks at Twickenham from ages ago and tell me which NH sides were playing like the Sharks. Or watch the Stormers from 7-10 years ago. Or watch the Lions side that got to the final, who played like no NH side I could think of at the time (Quins might have an argument about that now, along with a couple of others). But the key word here is "club". English clubs are not Saffer provincial sides, and it's mad to pretend they are anything alike. Better for a provincial franchise to be in a provincial franchise tournament.

Something like the Irish?

[ASMO]

Gloicester just rubbish, nearly as rubbish as Frank Murphy. What is it with ex pro players being most of the worst referees

Disagree. Murphy is a good ref. Never had any complaints with him officiating game involving Fre sides where, unlike too many others, there is no bias. What has he got wrong today?

He was looking right at a ruck where a Bordeaux player made veyr forceful head on head contact with Varney. That's almost certainly going to be cited, looks very ugly on replay.

A blatant deliberate knock on that the TMO had to talk him into giving a card for.

[Tichtheid]

I'm starting to think the English have replaced the Aussies with the demands we be removed from the competition.

You'll get used to the English moaning their faces off about the Heineken Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

Gloicester just rubbish, nearly as rubbish as Frank Murphy. What is it with ex pro players being most of the worst referees

Disagree. Murphy is a good ref. Never had any complaints with him officiating game involving Fre sides where, unlike too many others, there is no bias. What has he got wrong today?

He was looking right at a ruck where a Bordeaux player made veyr forceful head on head contact with Varney. That's almost certainly going to be cited, looks very ugly on replay.

Missed that. I'm flitting between games. Surely the TMO should have picked it up though? WTF else have they got to do?

[Torquemada 1420]

A blatant deliberate knock on that the TMO had to talk him into giving a card for.

Nah. He hadn't seen that angle and corrected his decision immediately he had. Good reffing for me.