2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[Chilli]

Ah yes the 24 hours spent on flights for an away game, at a casual 1.5k - 2 grand in Economy. Unless you want to spend actual days in the air.

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

If it so crap why are you wasting your time and energy on it. Just ignore the competition and focus your energy somewhere else.

Because my team are in it and it has a huge impact on our squad.

But in all honesty, despite the thousand matches available to watch, I have bothered to watch only a handful. The majority were decent to watch but felt largely pointless. My interest in the ever changing tournament has waned in recent years but absolutely nosedived this year. Now it feels like a fancier Premiership Cup, run as a financial and broadcasting exercise first and foremost with a schedule to ensure maximum ROI.

So you are moaning about watching a few decent rugby games?

[Chilli]

And to be clear - it doesn't matter what I personally feel, there's plenty of Quins fans who do care more about the tournament who are left unable to travel because of this insanity.

Unable to travel where?
I understand that not everyone has the time or capacity to travel to SA for a game or 2, but Glasgow, Paris, Manchester and Dublin are still easily reachable from Lo don.

[JM2K6]

I understand not wanting to read my posts but I must suggest you do so in order to follow what's happening before asking questions like that

[Torquemada 1420]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

ROG on Sat said he felt the comp was on its knees. You can see why so many of the Fre sides have gone back to the bad old days of not giving a sh*t. Although Toulouse are still putting in the full shift, Dupont came out and stated he categorically disagreed with the changes.

Mola Toulouse coach

"South Africans teams have turned things upside down," Mola told reporters.

"You may as well play them as they're here. I can't wait," he added.

In his interview, he said SA teams had raised the level of the comp. He did not say he was happy about it. The same Mola also complained last night that the bulk of the French teams exiting so early puts Toulouse at a massive disadvantage in the T14. He also pretty much implied they lost any chance by not finishing off Sale i.e. by finishing 2nd, they were going to play Leinster away and thus, end of the road.

[Torquemada 1420]

Stirring stuff. "May as well play them while they're here." Feel the enthusiasm.

See my subsequent post. And he did not say "I can't wait" but rather, that it was an exciting challenge.

[Chilli]

I understand not wanting to read my posts but I must suggest you do so in order to follow what's happening before asking questions like that

I do try avoid moaners.

Is there anything but moaning in your posts?

If so I'll take so time to have a quick scan through them.

[JM2K6]

I understand not wanting to read my posts but I must suggest you do so in order to follow what's happening before asking questions like that

I do try avoid moaners.

Is there anything but moaning in your posts?

If so I'll take so time to have a quick scan through them.

If you consider being critical in any way moaning then don't bother. Not understanding that Quins are playing a knockout game in Cape Town isn't helping you. Not understanding that the watchability of a game doesn't necesarily override whether there's any real tension, any meaning behind it, or anything beyond "pretty rugby look good" is a harder one to solve.

To put it another way, in a normal season, Quins' heartbreaking controversial loss to Racing 92 by a point should've left them clinging on by their fingertips and needing results to go their way to have any chance of making the knockout stages. Instead it's an irrelevance where Quins have comfortably qualified despite losing half their matches because only a couple of teams are knocked out, and the reward for comfortably qualifying is this get-fucked tie in Cape Town. The format stinks.

Those desperate last minute losing bonus points or epic wins that characterised some of the great European journeys for teams like Munster are made significantly less interesting when pretty much anyone qualifies anyway, and made even more daft when you parachute in teams that have no right to be involved. But I'm repeating myself now,.

[Jim Lahey]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

[Sandstorm]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

[Torquemada 1420]

You're missing the point. The tournament is worse off for not having travelling fans.

For me, that's not the worst aspect.
1) The genius of this comp in the early years was to pit different countries' sides against one another in each group. It was the international rivalry that elevated it. Who TF wants to play the same team you just played in your own league last week? That's what was the last nail in SOUP. It's no coincidence either that the worst finals have been the ones where both sides hailed from the same country: especially the all French affairs (not helped either by the stupidity of hosting these outside of the country).

2) The nature of the group stages meant you really needed to finish top of the group. This made most games precipitous for the serious contenders. Even the minnow games came down to who hammered them the most and so you could not even freewheel there.

3) And yes, the opportunity for travelling fans. Being in the UK, I've had a great time over the years going to places as varied as Ebbw Vale to Loftus Rd. An abiding memory will be of Clermont beating Sarries at Vicarage Rd but more of the Yellow Army making the place more like MM.

[Chilli]

I understand not wanting to read my posts but I must suggest you do so in order to follow what's happening before asking questions like that

I do try avoid moaners.

Is there anything but moaning in your posts?

If so I'll take so time to have a quick scan through them.

If you consider being critical in any way moaning then don't bother. Not understanding that Quins are playing a knockout game in Cape Town isn't helping you. Not understanding that the watchability of a game doesn't necesarily override whether there's any real tension, any meaning behind it, or anything beyond "pretty rugby look good" is a harder one to solve.

To put it another way, in a normal season, Quins' heartbreaking controversial loss to Racing 92 by a point should've left them clinging on by their fingertips and needing results to go their way to have any chance of making the knockout stages. Instead it's an irrelevance where Quins have comfortably qualified despite losing half their matches because only a couple of teams are knocked out, and the reward for comfortably qualifying is this get-fucked tie in Cape Town. The format stinks.

Those desperate last minute losing bonus points or epic wins that characterised some of the great European journeys for teams like Munster are made significantly less interesting when pretty much anyone qualifies anyway, and made even more daft when you parachute in teams that have no right to be involved. But I'm repeating myself now,.

Then don't watch the tournament. Do things which make you happy.

Quins play some fantastic rugby, I'd watch all their games if I supported them.

[OomStruisbaai]

I am living 180km from Cape Town but cant afford to watch it life. I will donate my left ball to watch the Stormers vs Quins match. It's going to be awesome running rugby from both teams.

[Torquemada 1420]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

[JM2K6]

Again I urge you to understand that being critical of how the tournament format devalues matches and causes issues for fans is not simply solved with "don't watch your team"

[OomStruisbaai]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

English is my 4th language but suppose he mean the format was great.

[Chilli]

Again I urge you to understand that being critical of how the tournament format devalues matches and causes issues for fans is not simply solved with "don't watch your team"

I understand that, but you are just going on and on about it.
Not much that you or I post on this site is going to change that.
Now let's put it behind us and enjoy some fantastic rugby.



I can't wait for South Africa to join the 6N. Just think of how good that will be

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

I wouldn't entirely rule out going to a game in Cape Town but the problem is that as a single guy, I'm much better suited to a lively weekend with a few friends - which I have done occasionally in the past for Euro games - than a full on holiday. For SA games the time as much as the cost make that difficult.

[Jim Lahey]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

I would agree.

But based on the evidence of the last 8 or 9 years, European Rugby is run by fuckheads,so it is unlikely that the obvious solution will be the one taken.

Therefore putting some competitive teams in at the expense of yhe likes of Bath/Dragons/Zebre is making the best of a bad situation.

[Brazil]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

I wouldn't entirely rule out going to a game in Cape Town but the problem is that as a single guy, I'm much better suited to a lively weekend with a few friends - which I have done occasionally in the past for Euro games - than a full on holiday. For SA games the time as much as the cost make that difficult.

A common pitfall in Lyon.

I should be going to the quarter final there later this year and am fully preparing to recreate the more excessive bits of La Grande Bouffe.

[JM2K6]

Again I urge you to understand that being critical of how the tournament format devalues matches and causes issues for fans is not simply solved with "don't watch your team"

I understand that, but you are just going on and on about it.
Not much that you or I post on this site is going to change that.
Now let's put it behind us and enjoy some fantastic rugby.



I can't wait for South Africa to join the 6N. Just think of how good that will be

"Why is this person I decided to engage with engaging with me" is a weird question to ask I guess.

[Slick]

Yeah but what does ROG know about what makes European rugby a success? Has he not spoken to some gutteral bellend from a shanty town at the bottom of the world?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

I wouldn't entirely rule out going to a game in Cape Town but the problem is that as a single guy, I'm much better suited to a lively weekend with a few friends - which I have done occasionally in the past for Euro games - than a full on holiday. For SA games the time as much as the cost make that difficult.

A common pitfall in Lyon.

I should be going to the quarter final there later this year and am fully preparing to recreate the more excessive bits of La Grande Bouffe.

I can recommend Les Loges for good food. Also Brasserie Georges which isn't fine dining in the same way but is quite an experience.

[Torquemada 1420]

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

It's Lyon. The self proclaimed gastro capital of France. Even if the local Costa isn't a Michelin Star, it's going to charge those prices to talk up the experience.

[PornDog]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

I would agree.

But based on the evidence of the last 8 or 9 years, European Rugby is run by fuckheads,so it is unlikely that the obvious solution will be the one taken.

Therefore putting some competitive teams in at the expense of yhe likes of Bath/Dragons/Zebre is making the best of a bad situation.

Yep, pretty much this for me as well.

Current comp is a steaming pile of shit, but (amazingly) having the Saffas in it actually makes it slightly less shite than it has been.

Would not object to kicking them out again mind you if we can get back to a proper competition.

[_Os_]

Ah yes the 24 hours spent on flights for an away game, at a casual 1.5k - 2 grand in Economy. Unless you want to spend actual days in the air.

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

I think Joe was maybe referring to the players, that's how I read it, not away fans (which aren't really a thing in SA).

I can't see anyone/many going to SA for a knockout game as I've posted previously. But your numbers aren't accurate, I found return tickets on SkyScanner from London to CT covering Friday 31st March/Saturday 1st April/Sunday 2nd April for under £800, and on at least one of the flights it's 13-ish hours. Sure it means taking a few days off work flying out midweek, but it's half the numbers you're posting. You can get return tickets from the UK to SA under £500 (but not covering these dates from what I can see), £2k is way out.

The equation changes a bit with non-knockout fixtures if someone basically wants to go on holiday and see their team too, as it can be planned more in advance. If anyone is spending the money, they're far better off spending it on two weeks rather than a weekend.

I also checked SkyScanner before posting those figures, Os. Unless you're willing to accept insane amounts of time travelling - i.e. closer to 24 hours per flight rather than for the whole trip with loads of stops, the absolute minimum figure for direct flights is £2,215. Because we don't know what day it's going to be, this is flying out Thursday and flying back Monday fwiw.

If you're willing to push that to 16hrs out and 14:30 back - over 30 hours of flying and stop overs - you can get it down to £1217. Big woop.

This is a bit academic, because we both agree almost no one is going to go for a weekend to SA from Europe (it would be a stupid thing to do). But I'm really not sure how you're using SkyScanner to get those numbers. Why would anyone subject themselves to something like a London > Amsterdam > Dubai > Addis > Joburg > CT route over 30+ hours (or some variation of that) when if they were going to do this, they could just travel late Tuesday or Wednesday instead, have an easier journey and pay less?

Leave on Tuesday March 28th (KLM 14 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 19 hour, 1 stop). £790.
Leave on Tuesday March 28th 8.25pm UK time (KLM 24 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 25 hour, 1 stop). £798.
Leave Tuesday March 28th 9pm UK time (Air Ethiopia, 16 hour flight 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Air Ethiopia 27 hour, 1 stop). £755.
Leave on Wednesday March 29th 6.;25pm UK time (Kenya Airways 26 hour flight, 1 stop), return Monday 3rd April (Kenya Airways, 27 hour flight, 2 stops). £720.

I do think it becomes more viable in league fixtures (ie in the URC) if someone wants to go on holiday in SA and watch their team too, it is possible to get return tickets to SA under £500 if the stay is longer. The US recently overtook the UK as SA's biggest source of foreign tourists (cannot remember if that was by value or numbers), but it's not like there are only £1.5k to £2k return tickets from the UK to SA as you posted, if that was the case the tourism numbers from the UK to SA wouldn't be what they are.

[Torquemada 1420]

I would agree.

But based on the evidence of the last 8 or 9 years, European Rugby is run by fuckheads,so it is unlikely that the obvious solution will be the one taken.

Therefore putting some competitive teams in at the expense of yhe likes of Bath/Dragons/Zebre is making the best of a bad situation.

Based on the state of the Premiership, development of the smaller nations, the crisis in regards head injuries, the corruption in France............ well, everything I guess.

[JM2K6]

I think Joe was maybe referring to the players, that's how I read it, not away fans (which aren't really a thing in SA).

I can't see anyone/many going to SA for a knockout game as I've posted previously. But your numbers aren't accurate, I found return tickets on SkyScanner from London to CT covering Friday 31st March/Saturday 1st April/Sunday 2nd April for under £800, and on at least one of the flights it's 13-ish hours. Sure it means taking a few days off work flying out midweek, but it's half the numbers you're posting. You can get return tickets from the UK to SA under £500 (but not covering these dates from what I can see), £2k is way out.

The equation changes a bit with non-knockout fixtures if someone basically wants to go on holiday and see their team too, as it can be planned more in advance. If anyone is spending the money, they're far better off spending it on two weeks rather than a weekend.

I also checked SkyScanner before posting those figures, Os. Unless you're willing to accept insane amounts of time travelling - i.e. closer to 24 hours per flight rather than for the whole trip with loads of stops, the absolute minimum figure for direct flights is £2,215. Because we don't know what day it's going to be, this is flying out Thursday and flying back Monday fwiw.

If you're willing to push that to 16hrs out and 14:30 back - over 30 hours of flying and stop overs - you can get it down to £1217. Big woop.

This is a bit academic, because we both agree almost no one is going to go for a weekend to SA from Europe (it would be a stupid thing to do). But I'm really not sure how you're using SkyScanner to get those numbers. Why would anyone subject themselves to something like a London > Amsterdam > Dubai > Addis > Joburg > CT route over 30+ hours (or some variation of that) when if they were going to do this, they could just travel late Tuesday or Wednesday instead, have an easier journey and pay less?

Leave on Tuesday March 28th (KLM 14 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 19 hour, 1 stop). £790.
Leave on Tuesday March 28th 8.25pm UK time (KLM 24 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 25 hour, 1 stop). £798.
Leave Tuesday March 28th 9pm UK time (Air Ethiopia, 16 hour flight 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Air Ethiopia 27 hour, 1 stop). £755.
Leave on Wednesday March 29th 6.;25pm UK time (Kenya Airways 26 hour flight, 1 stop), return Monday 3rd April (Kenya Airways, 27 hour flight, 2 stops). £720.

I do think it becomes more viable in league fixtures (ie in the URC) if someone wants to go on holiday in SA and watch their team too, it is possible to get return tickets to SA under £500 if the stay is longer. The US recently overtook the UK as SA's biggest source of foreign tourists (cannot remember if that was by value or numbers), but it's not like there are only £1.5k to £2k return tickets from the UK to SA as you posted, if that was the case the tourism numbers from the UK to SA wouldn't be what they are.

To be clear OS, the over 30 hours was "in total". Not per flight. And I gave you the dates I was looking at as examples, so perhaps it is cheaper on those days. I do not pretend to be a travel agent - I literally just checked Skyscanner and laughed.

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

[_Os_]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

[Sandstorm]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

The airlines have noticed there is Rugby in SA on 31 March and have jacked up the flight prices from UK.
Also it's autumn in SA and the number of flights has halved by then.

[JM2K6]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

2k is less than the cost of the cheapest direct flights for the day before and the day after the range of dates for the match. I don't think that's "way out".

Yes, if you're willing to slum it and take twice as long in the air, you can get it cheaper. Probably super cheap if you take a boat.

[sockwithaticket]

Potentially significant issue coming up. EPCR's rules say that a player must be contracted to a club for 3 months to play. Bristol just had 5 points deducted over this in the Challenge Cup.

Tom Cruse was signed by Edinburgh on a short term deal in November that's apparently ended as he's just joined up with Saints 'til the end of the season. Now there's no specific date on the reports I've seen, so maybe he'll stay on at Edinbrugh long enough for this not to matter, but if someone has fucked up all the admin around it then the round of 16 fixtures could be subject to some change.

[_Os_]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

2k is less than the cost of the cheapest direct flights for the day before and the day after the range of dates for the match. I don't think that's "way out".

Yes, if you're willing to slum it and take twice as long in the air, you can get it cheaper. Probably super cheap if you take a boat.

I hope you don't test software this way. "Sir would you like the circa £500 to £750 return ticket where you spend around 10 hours more travelling with a stop, or the faster flight with no stop that costs £2k?", the sensible answer is not "everyone goes for the direct flight of £2k, the most expensive ticket, and if they're mad enough to undertake this journey for a single weekend robotically refuses to go one day earlier to reduce the cost". Having a stop sometimes means you can walk around for a bit, it can make it easier.

If I'm taking the boat you're taking a privately hired jet to prove that £1.5k to £2k is an entirely normal and reasonable amount to pay aren't you? I'm sure some people do take the private jet, but ...

[weegie01]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

Travel issues, fair enough. But what have the Saffa sides got to do with the format? It would be 8 from the URC either way, just now some are SA sides. That clearly introduces travel issues but I do not believe it has changed the format of the tournament. As far as I can see the format is the same as it was last year with no SA sides, unless I am missing something.

[JM2K6]

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

2k is less than the cost of the cheapest direct flights for the day before and the day after the range of dates for the match. I don't think that's "way out".

Yes, if you're willing to slum it and take twice as long in the air, you can get it cheaper. Probably super cheap if you take a boat.

I hope you don't test software this way. "Sir would you like the circa £500 to £750 return ticket where you spend around 10 hours more travelling with a stop, or the faster flight with no stop that costs £2k?", the sensible answer is not "everyone goes for the direct flight over £2k, the most expensive ticket, and if they're mad enough to undertake this journey for a single weekend robotically refuses to go one day earlier to reduce the cost". Having a stop sometimes means you can walk around for a bit, it can make it easier.

If I'm taking the boat you're taking a privately hired jet to prove that £1.5k to £2k is an entirely normal and reasonable amount to pay aren't you? I'm sure some people do take the private jet, but ...

What are you even trying to argue here, Os? That looking at the cost of an economy class direct flight isn't "fair"? Why not? A 12 hour flight is already a big ask. A 24 hour one is a huge commitment and essentially requires you to take a lot of time off. It's only a couple of months away and we still don't know what day the actual match will be - the lack of the ability to do this on a whim for a reasonable cost is part of the point!

Like I said, you can get cheaper flights using the dates I provided - because this is a comparison to the trips you'd take in Europe - the cheapest on Skyscanner is £782 return with 3 stops on the flight out and 2 stops on the flight back, an utterly miserable journey.

If the answer is "actually, the dates you chose are just super expensive for whatever reason, if you look back a few days and forward a few days it's a bit cheaper" then that's fine, I really don't care that much to do a forensic investigation of ticket costs to that extent. You know what's even cheaper? Not going.

(A more Os-reasonable one avoiding those oddly expensive days. Fly out Tuesday 28th March. Fly back Thursday 6th April. Cheapest direct flights, £1222. Still absurd. Cheapest 1-stop flights come to £800, for a crazy route. £700 gets you the cheapest possible flights, with 21hrs and 18hrs15 as your flight times. lol.)

[JM2K6]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

Travel issues, fair enough. But what have the Saffa sides got to do with the format? It would be 8 from the URC either way, just now some are SA sides. That clearly introduces travel issues but I do not believe it has changed the format of the tournament. As far as I can see the format is the same as it was last year with no SA sides, unless I am missing something.

The original intent was for last season's stupid format to just be a COVID thing, where everything was a desparate attempt to make some money from live rugby (hence the two-legged knockout stages, etc). There's no such excuse this season and the Saffer sides have been used to keep the idiotic pool format that no-one wanted, only now there's home advantage for the round of 16 as it's not a two-legged one, so you get teams having to travel halfway across the world for a winner-takes-all knockout game.

In other words, it was shit last year too, but there was a good excuse and it was meant to be temporary.

[_Os_]

What are you even trying to argue here, Os?

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

[JM2K6]

What are you even trying to argue here, Os?

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

Okay. I accept that you wouldn't pay that. But someone trying to get to SA on a flight short enough to make it so they don't have to take a lot of holiday at relatively short notice is gong to be paying a lot more than the £500 you seem to think is the level.

There are people who follow sports teams who are actually willing to travel long distance for a long time to basically spend a weekend somewhere! But they don't do it if it also costs them a shit ton of money.

[Chilli]

Oh my God but all some of them do is complain.

[JM2K6]

If you don't like the

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disucssion

you can just not

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[OomStruisbaai]

Weekend Heineken Champions Cup results

Leicester Tigers 26 Ospreys 27
Lyon 31 Vodacom Bulls 7
Northampton Saints 13 LaRochelle 31
Bordeaux-Begles 17 Gloucester 26
Leinster 36 Racing 92 10
Exeter Chiefs 40 Castres 3
DHL Stormers 30 ASM Clermont Auvergne 16
Ulster 22 Sale Sharks 11
Montpellier 21 London Irish 21
Toulouse 20 Munster 16
Edinburgh 20 Saracens 14

Round of 16 fixtures (to be played 31 March/1 and 2 April, time TBC)

Saracens v Ospreys
Cell C Sharks v Munster
DHL Stormers v Harlequins
Toulouse v Vodacom Bulls
LaRochelle v Gloucester
Leicester Tigers v Edinburgh
Exeter Chiefs v Montpellier
Leinster v Ulster

SA Challenge Cup results

Dragons 25 Emirates Lions 30
Toyota Cheetahs 9 Pau 6

Challenge Cup round of 16

Toulon v Toyota Cheetahs
Scarlets v Brive
Benetton v Connacht
Glasgow v Dragons
Stade Francais v Lyon
Emirates Lions v Racing 92
Bristol Bears v ASM Clermont Auvergne
Cardiff v Sale Sharks