2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[SaintK]

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

That all sounds pretty dodgy

Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

<Sorry Saint, have rearranged this to make it clearer>

It's dodgy as fuck! This was why many people strongly objected to moving the HQ from Dublin to Switzerland in the first place - even leaving aside the ludicrous insinuated accusation of some sort of pro Irish corruption - It was obvious that transparency would disappear completely.

I assume all of the participating Unions/Leagues would be party to all the details as they are the stakeholders, but given the overall lack on info that's probably done under NDAs. It's all gone very FIFA in its shadyness.


As for your second line, of course they will be getting SA TV monies (it might even rival the Welsh), but we've next to zero chance of finding out anything about it. (Actually, SA might prove to be a better source of leaks for this sort of info going forward - if that's not too bold to suggest)

Thanks for that!

[OomStruisbaai]

Summer rugby is a big success in South Africa

The introduction of “Summer Rugby” to South Africa for the first time featured local derbies in Durban and Cape Town on 23 December and 31 December, and with the coastal franchises under pressure to deliver a stadium spectacle that would be enough to lure fans from the beaches to the bleachers.

Both excelled as almost 100 000 fans attended these matches. Such was the positive response that the total of 95 538 fans made up the largest rugby audience of any country in the URC over that period.

URC boss

The benefit that we have had of the South African teams coming in – and hopefully it has been reciprocal – is the competition has got better, the more depth that we’ve got in everyone of our squads.

“What we’ve seen is teams like the Sharks not pick their best team and almost beat Leinster away from home. What we are starting to see is that when the best teams are out on the field, the competition is really top notch.

“What we’re seeing in the competition, the depth being created in each of the teams, that plays into the scenario we’ve always been trying to shoot for, is the ‘Any Given Sunday’ philosophy of depth in the competition and jeopardy from one game to another. Taking that forward into Europe has been very pleasant to see.

“What you are getting now is teams that have not had the run of results they’ve had in the league – say Ospreys and Scarlets winning away in places like Montpellier and Leicester. Scarlets have gone unbeaten in the group stages – we’ve seen that as well with Cardiff putting a really good run together. When they are doing that in those two competitions, it can only be a good thing when they bring that back to their league form.

“That’s the thing I like in having the League plus Cup playing like it does, that you can pick up form – if you don’t have it in the league, or vice versa, there is still something to play for in any game. That is a great aspect of any great series of competitions.”

While there may have been some initial skepticism, Anayi believes that the SA franchises’ performances have changed that perception and will continue to do so in future.

“I knew, because I’ve been through this with the URC entry, once we had teams going down to South Africa – just follow their social media – they’re having a great time. As soon as they get home, they pass that positivity on. I knew that was going to come.

“You hope the South African teams will be competitive at home against any rival, but what we’ve seen is South African teams being very competitive away from home. Then you have aspects like Siya Kolisi and Eben Etzebeth staying behind for more than an hour to sign autographs at the Stoop, and that’s connecting.

“It underlines the fact it is no longer European – this is about Champions’ Cup rugby, pitting the best teams against the best and we are getting that. There is nobody in this world that can tell me the big four South African franchises don’t deserve their spot at the table.”

[Camroc2]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

Why do you think the Spivs moved the organisation from Dublin to Switzerland ?

[OomStruisbaai]

Who is Spivs?

[Tichtheid]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

[Biffer]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

[OomStruisbaai]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

I thought the English are spivs. But it is the France lot.

[Biffer]

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

I thought the English are spivs. But it is the France lot.

Some English, some French.

[Sards]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

This nonsense is going north now. You make out like the rest all of us are holding out begging bowls.

[Biffer]

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

This nonsense is going north now. You make out like the rest all of us are holding out begging bowls.

Not my intention there - just seen some of you guys typing things like $hark$, and thought it was a similar situation to folk coming along and chucking money at a club in England and France. Apologies if that's not the case.

[SaintK]

A spiv is a man, typically a flashy dresser, who makes a living by disreputable dealings. Came to England mainly from Scotland!

[Sards]

Not my intention there - just seen some of you guys typing things like $hark$, and thought it was a similar situation to folk coming along and chucking money at a club in England and France. Apologies if that's not the case.

It is the case. But it's nothing unusual. The Sharks had the proper structure in place for an investor to feel comfortable parting with their money. There are some real shitshows around I can assure you. But the only reason people are uncomfortable with it is because it's either above their pay grade and comprehension or they are insanely jealous.

Without googling. What animal is in the Stormers logo.

[Biffer]

Without googling. What animal is in the Stormers logo.

No idea

[Biffer]

Although the Scarlets have a dragon in their logo and the Dragons don't.

[Sards]

Without googling. What animal is in the Stormers logo.

No idea

The Sharks?

[Sards]

Although the Scarlets have a dragon in their logo and the Dragons don't.

[OomStruisbaai]

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

This nonsense is going north now. You make out like the rest all of us are holding out begging bowls.

Not my intention there - just seen some of you guys typing things like $hark$, and thought it was a similar situation to folk coming along and chucking money at a club in England and France. Apologies if that's not the case.

You are spot on with the $hark$.

[Sards]

And that is why Flyte and all the rest are not interested in dealing with the Western Cape.
Hulle dra nog die Osse wa op hulle skouers.

[OomStruisbaai]

$hark$ $piv$!

[Chilli]

A spiv is a man, typically a flashy dresser, who makes a living by disreputable dealings. Came to England mainly from Scotland!

I would have thought the Irish.

[Chilli]

A spiv is a man, typically a flashy dresser, who makes a living by disreputable dealings. Came to England mainly from Scotland!

In modern terms a spiv would wear a popper collar.

[Chilli]

$hark$ $piv$!

Net so.

[Chilli]

$hark$ $piv$ $ard$!

It all makes sense now

[Sards]

$hark$ $piv$ $ard$!

It all makes sense now

My dress code is T shirt ( mainly skull themed , I have loads ) , shorts and slops....I am known as the " Hippie " of the industry..........never , ever a Spiv.........dont have time for that and pity anyone that needs to follow a dress code.

The only sport I am involved in is the Cricket at my sons club....I sponsor them and get my logo on the shirts sleeve

[OomStruisbaai]

$hark$ $piv$ $ard$!

It all makes sense now

My dress code is T shirt ( mainly skull themed , I have loads ) , shorts and slops....I am known as the " Hippie " of the industry..........never , ever a Spiv.........dont have time for that and pity anyone that needs to follow a dress code.

The only sport I am involved in is the Cricket at my sons club....I sponsor them and get my logo on the shirts sleeve

Making dodgy sponsorship deals to get your son in the 1st team. Typical $piv.

[PornDog]

'Too complicated' - Champions Cup format needs focus, says URC chief
Martin Anayi is also a board member of EPCR.

EPCR BOARD MEMBER Martin Anayi says the format of the Heineken Champions Cup needs to be addressed, amid complaints from fans, media, players, and coaches again this season.

Anayi, who is also the CEO of the BKT United Rugby Championship, admits that it’s generally agreed that the current format of the Champions Cup is “too complicated.”

In its current guise, the competition involves 24 teams being split into two pools of 12 teams, with all clubs playing four pool-stage games against two of the other sides in their pool. Eight clubs qualify from each pool for the Round of 16, with quarter-finals, semi-finals and a final following.

Before the 2020/21 season, the Heineken Cup involved only 20 clubs who were split into five pools of four clubs, meaning they each had six pool games as they played each other home and away. The five clubs who topped each pool advanced straight into quarter-finals, along with the three highest-ranked runners-up.

Before the 2014/15 season, the Heineken Cup featured 24 clubs who were split into six pools of four, with everyone playing six pool games each. The six pool winners qualified for the quarter-finals along with the two highest-ranked runners-up.

While there have been calls for a return to that pre-2014/15 format, the issue now is that the Champions Cup is played out over eight match weekends rather than nine. It’s thought that the English and French clubs are particularly against adding another match weekend given their focus on their domestic leagues.

Whatever the solution, the calls for change have been growing recently and Anayi, who is part of the EPCR board, indicated that tournament organisers are considering the format.

“It’s generally accepted that the format is too complicated,” Anayi told the official BKT URC website.

“There is a desire from a lot of fans and media to go back to an easily understandable group stage, moving away from the two conference structure. People want simplicity with a group format that makes sense and is a lot clearer.

“At the heart of it, we have still got a very compelling competition, with some great rugby, we just need to focus on the format a bit more.”

Meanwhile, Anayi admitted that the URC still has lots of work to do to improve, despite the obvious growth since the introduction of the four leading South African sides.

Anayi pointed out that there remain clubs who struggle to be competitive.

He also indicated that qualification from the URC for the Champions Cup will return to meritocracy next season, moving away from the current model where each participating nation in the URC is guaranteed one qualifier into the Champions Cup regardless of their finishing position in the URC.

“We have still got a bit of a job to do with teams 16 to 14, potentially up to 13, in terms of are they as competitive as they can be,” said Anayi.

“There’s a lot to do commercially to make the game bigger and a lot to do to bring new fans into the grounds.

“By no means are we done. It’s not a finished article. It’s definitely a work in progress, but the building blocks are there more so than when it was the Pro12 or the Pro14.

“Next season, most likely we will go back to straight meritocracy, with the top eight going through to the Champions Cup.”

https://www.the42.ie/champions-cup-form ... 0-Jan2023/


Its not the complicated format that is the worst of it (though its really bad), its the 2/3rds qualify for the next round that's the single biggest issue.

[Sards]

It all makes sense now

My dress code is T shirt ( mainly skull themed , I have loads ) , shorts and slops....I am known as the " Hippie " of the industry..........never , ever a Spiv.........dont have time for that and pity anyone that needs to follow a dress code.

The only sport I am involved in is the Cricket at my sons club....I sponsor them and get my logo on the shirts sleeve

Making dodgy sponsorship deals to get your son in the 1st team. Typical $piv.

My youngest actually. At Sunningdale. My youngest needs no help. He has everything laid out for him. He must just take his opportunities. He bowls fast and hard. Last practice he hurt 3 boys with his bowling. Even the better batsmen dont like facing him. . His batting is hard and aggressive. He deals in boundaries. He is a very strong lad. My eldest had no help from me. It's all his own hard work. I just pay for his external coaching

[Biffer]

If you want to stick to the same number of weekends and qualifiers, with low risk of losing big names, which is obviously what the spivs want. Then just do eight groups of three, one team from each league, home and away top two qualify. Far from ideal but at least understandable to the passing fan.

I'd prefer the groups of four, but it appears there's resistance to that.

[Ovals]

If you want to stick to the same number of weekends and qualifiers, with low risk of losing big names, which is obviously what the spivs want. Then just do eight groups of three, one team from each league, home and away top two qualify. Far from ideal but at least understandable to the passing fan.

I'd prefer the groups of four, but it appears there's resistance to that.

I think 8 teams from the English Premiership is too many, probably too many from France as well. If they go back to groups of 4 there'll be loads of dead rubbers after the fist couple of rounds.

[charltom]

If you want to stick to the same number of weekends and qualifiers, with low risk of losing big names, which is obviously what the spivs want. Then just do eight groups of three, one team from each league, home and away top two qualify. Far from ideal but at least understandable to the passing fan.

I'd prefer the groups of four, but it appears there's resistance to that.

I think 8 teams from the English Premiership is too many, probably too many from France as well. If they go back to groups of 4 there'll be loads of dead rubbers after the fist couple of rounds.

Four groups of six, with two from each league. All teams to play against the four in their group that are not in their league, either home or away (two of each).

If it weren't for needing to avoid dead rubbers, 2 from each group to go through would be ideal. But instead 4 go through... either (i) all to R16 as now (the only change therefore is the perceived fairness of round 1), or top 2 to QFs and 3rd/4th to a Plate comp, with 5th dropping down to Challenge Cup.

Plate comp can have meaning by its winner (along with the CC winner) gaining pre-qualification for the following year's CC).

Then qualification can be top 7 from each league, CC and Plate winners if not qualified via league, and the remaining slots going to 8th place teams (in order according to number of teams in the league, so URC then Top 14 then Premiership).

[OomStruisbaai]

Look like going back to the old format.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... xt-season/

[Sandstorm]

Look like going back to the old format.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... xt-season/

Poms will still whinge about it.

[Ovals]

Look like going back to the old format.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... xt-season/

Poms will still whinge about it.

Doesn't matter what the format is, we aren't likely to make a big impact in the latter stages of the tournament - the salary cap will really start to bite next season, as old contracts come to an end and teams are unable keep all their big names. Most of our sides will just be Bonus Point fodder - especially if we're still allocated 8 slots.

[JM2K6]

Us: point out the problems with the format.
Saffers: HURR WHINGING POMS WE ARE EXPERTS ON THIS TOURNAMENT WE'VE JUST NOTICED
Players, coaches, supporters: Huge amounts of complaints about the format
EPCR: acknowledges and proposes changes
Saffers: Graciously acknowledge that the "whinging poms" were actually in line with everyone else, and obviously correct

I think that's how it's gone

[Ovals]

Us: point out the problems with the format.
Saffers: HURR WHINGING POMS WE ARE EXPERTS ON THIS TOURNAMENT WE'VE JUST NOTICED
Players, coaches, supporters: Huge amounts of complaints about the format
EPCR: acknowledges and proposes changes
Saffers: Graciously acknowledge that the "whinging poms" were actually in line with everyone else, and obviously correct

I think that's how it's gone

[average joe]

You tedious troll, no Saffa was defending the format on here and you know it.

[Ovals]

If, as suggested, the qualification from the URC is now going to be just the top 8 - the Welsh sides will have to pull their finger out to get a side in the next Champions cup. And, Benneton are well placed to qualify.

[Tichtheid]

There are also calls for a return to the original schedule in the season, when the pool stages were held in two weekends in October, December and January. This season the pool matches started in December.

That's not going to happen next season, what with the RWC final being on 28th of October. Euro matches in October would severely disadvantage Edinburgh

[Biffer]

You tedious troll, no Saffa was defending the format on here and you know it.

Nothing in his post said they were.

[Biffer]

There are also calls for a return to the original schedule in the season, when the pool stages were held in two weekends in October, December and January. This season the pool matches started in December.

That's not going to happen next season, what with the RWC final being on 28th of October. Euro matches in October would severely disadvantage Edinburgh

Previous World Cups the Heineken Cup matches were November, December and January.