The Official English Rugby Thread

[Slick]

Monk - if you're here to talk English rugby in good faith then you're very welcome.

The custom is there because it is often hard to discuss your rugby without shitposters descending in exceptionally bad faith, particularly when the rugby involves England or English teams. So call it a safe space if you like, I'd see it more as the England 'clubhouse' on this bored. Like any clubhouse, away fans are most welcome but if they act like tits it's time to go home.

Excellent analogy

[SaintK]

Anyone know if the U20 matches are on TV?

iPlayer

Thanks

[charltom]

Why pretend those guys are the Saracens pack? Most of them are reserves or occasional starters at best - some of them have barely started a game this season. Even the capped internationals like Mawi, Pifeleti, and Christie are bench fodder.

Last time I checked, you still had Mako Vunipola (66 caps + 6 Lions caps) , Jamie George (73 caps + 4 Lions), Maro Itoje (63 caps + 6 Lions), Billy Vunipola (66 caps) in that pack starting most games, along with guys like Hugh Tizard, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl, Marco Riccioni, Theo McFarland. That is a huge amount of power and carrying ability.

How were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?

Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reason

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

[JM2K6]

How were they so dismantled by Edinburgh then, who are just 9th in the URC and demonstrated finishing "ability" commensurate with that position?

Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reason

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

Didn't watch either match so no, not really. Edinburgh pack from both matches looks tasty though - Schoeman, McInally, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Mata, Nel, Skinner, and I know Crosbie's the next big thing - add in the size of Kinghorn, Bennett, DvdM and Boffelli and it's a physical side. They'd be a top tier Premiership side.

The pack not getting on top is probably why they struggled to beat Edinburgh at home and lost away.

[Paddington Bear]

My main takeaways from the Edinburgh home game were that we shut down VdM very, very effectively and Ritchie completely lost his head with the ref. Otherwise was pretty evenly matched.

[charltom]

Before I respond, are you curious in a good faith discussion over how even superb teams can be deservedly beaten or are you here just to gloat for some reason

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

Didn't watch either match so no, not really. Edinburgh pack from both matches looks tasty though - Schoeman, McInally, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Mata, Nel, Skinner, and I know Crosbie's the next big thing - add in the size of Kinghorn, Bennett, DvdM and Boffelli and it's a physical side. They'd be a top tier Premiership side.

If only they more often looked like a top tier URC side...

[JM2K6]

Curious. All I've seen of Sarries this season has been the Edinburgh games and the pack hasn't looked as powerful as you suggested. Do you know why?

Didn't watch either match so no, not really. Edinburgh pack from both matches looks tasty though - Schoeman, McInally, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Mata, Nel, Skinner, and I know Crosbie's the next big thing - add in the size of Kinghorn, Bennett, DvdM and Boffelli and it's a physical side. They'd be a top tier Premiership side.

If only they more often looked like a top tier URC side...

Well, Leinster and Stormers are a cut above the rest, very hard for anyone to match those squads.

[Dogbert]

The Stormers who were well beaten by Glasgow - Those Stormers ?

[Kawazaki]

The NPR Sweaties are nearly as insufferable as the PR Bogtrotters.

[Dogbert]

Apologies - forgot this was the English Rugby Thread - Hugs and Kisses

[JM2K6]

The Stormers who were well beaten by Glasgow - Those Stormers ?

Yeah, they've got a magnificent squad. Current champions, I believe? But perhaps they're actually a bunch of no hopers on account of losing a match, sport is complicated like that

[Slick]

The NPR Sweaties are nearly as insufferable as the PR Bogtrotters.

Oh this post has brought back fond memories of you losing the plot after the Calcutta Cup game last year and infecting the Scottish thread for days with your bleating and childish foot stamping.

[JM2K6]

I remember that

[Simian]

The Stormers who were well beaten by Glasgow - Those Stormers ?

Yeah, they've got a magnificent squad. Current champions, I believe? But perhaps they're actually a bunch of no hopers on account of losing a match, sport is complicated like that

Indeed. and having been at the game, it was very clear all the crowd knew we'd beaten a top team. also the Glasgow players' response to the final whistle rather put into perspective the whole "Glasgow v Edinburgh is the big game of the season" argument.

I still would kick the staffers out the league if it was my plaything, mind

[Simian]

I remember that

same!

[JM2K6]

So, losing that was deeply fucking irritating.

What worked:

Picked a pack to carry, and they carried better and smarter than we've seen for a long time.
Malins' return was excellent
Chessum more than backed up his selection ahead of Ribbans
Cole made a big impact in the scrum which was the primary reason for his selection
Earl was lively off the bench, ditto Isiekwe
Dombrandt cut great lines and carried hard
Farrell put in a couple of huge hits and one really effective one that chopped down DVDM behind the line on a dangerous looking move
Ludlam looks much better at 6 than as the 7/8 we've tried him at before

What didn't:

Scrum largely struggled, lineout definitely struggled
Ben Curry didn't justify his selection ahead of Earl. Good at securing quick ball, but didn't threaten theirs and made too many errors
Farrell playing so much at 10
Farrell's goalkicking
Farrell's desire to smash Russell making him bite in on a covered player and causing heaps of issues, plus missing lots of tackles including DVDM for the second try
Dombrandt dropping a tough offload, an easy pass, and a very simple kickoff
Dombrandt, Marchant, and the others missing DVDM for first try
Mako being way off the pace when he came on
Earl giving away penalties for fun when he came on
Defensive attitude in general - even early on players were taking it easy on kick chases, not working hard enough to cover, putting in some half hearted tackles at times
Overplaying the attacking kicking game
Ben Youngs - appalling in every facet, including - excitingly - being all at sea in defence
Itoje can't justify the penalties if he's not bringing his 'A' game

On the whole I saw signs of life in that performance but the number one issue continues to be halfback options. You just can't keep picking Ben Youngs. He's dogshit. It's an absolute sham. Farrell and Smith can only work if Smith is allowed to actually play like a 10 and Farrell plays like a 12. If they're gonna play like this, just fucking pick Farrell and let Smith replace him after 60 minutes or something (it'll never happen while Farrell is captain, obviously).

I wasn't expecting a win or a sudden reversal in fortunes. Like, fuck, we're all pissed off the RFU didn't bin Eddie off a year ago, partly because we know there's so little time before the World Cup - no-one is seriously expecting us to be brilliant because we have a new coach. Seeing the same self-inflicted wounds coming from selection plus needless mistakes is deeply frustrating. Despite a more progressive selection than I expected from him, Borthwick is still after his first game suggesting he's as conservative as we feared. But there's 4 more matches to come to see how England evolve.

[Ovals]

So, losing that was deeply fucking irritating.

What worked:

Picked a pack to carry, and they carried better and smarter than we've seen for a long time.
Malins' return was excellent
Chessum more than backed up his selection ahead of Ribbans
Cole made a big impact in the scrum which was the primary reason for his selection
Earl was lively off the bench, ditto Isiekwe
Dombrandt cut great lines and carried hard
Farrell put in a couple of huge hits and one really effective one that chopped down DVDM behind the line on a dangerous looking move
Ludlam looks much better at 6 than as the 7/8 we've tried him at before

What didn't:

Scrum largely struggled, lineout definitely struggled
Ben Curry didn't justify his selection ahead of Earl. Good at securing quick ball, but didn't threaten theirs and made too many errors
Farrell playing so much at 10
Farrell's goalkicking
Farrell's desire to smash Russell making him bite in on a covered player and causing heaps of issues, plus missing lots of tackles including DVDM for the second try
Dombrandt dropping a tough offload, an easy pass, and a very simple kickoff
Dombrandt, Marchant, and the others missing DVDM for first try
Mako being way off the pace when he came on
Earl giving away penalties for fun when he came on
Defensive attitude in general - even early on players were taking it easy on kick chases, not working hard enough to cover, putting in some half hearted tackles at times
Overplaying the attacking kicking game
Ben Youngs - appalling in every facet, including - excitingly - being all at sea in defence
Itoje can't justify the penalties if he's not bringing his 'A' game

On the whole I saw signs of life in that performance but the number one issue continues to be halfback options. You just can't keep picking Ben Youngs. He's dogshit. It's an absolute sham. Farrell and Smith can only work if Smith is allowed to actually play like a 10 and Farrell plays like a 12. If they're gonna play like this, just fucking pick Farrell and let Smith replace him after 60 minutes or something (it'll never happen while Farrell is captain, obviously).

I wasn't expecting a win or a sudden reversal in fortunes. Like, fuck, we're all pissed off the RFU didn't bin Eddie off a year ago, partly because we know there's so little time before the World Cup - no-one is seriously expecting us to be brilliant because we have a new coach. Seeing the same self-inflicted wounds coming from selection plus needless mistakes is deeply frustrating. Despite a more progressive selection than I expected from him, Borthwick is still after his first game suggesting he's as conservative as we feared. But there's 4 more matches to come to see how England evolve.

I thought the front 5 went OK - secured lots of ball, carried and showed up well in attack - Genge was very good and I thought Sinkler had a good game. Set piece wasn't perfect but was serviceable. Where we lost it was the shambols in defence - getting outflanked regularly and also some yawning gaps opening up in the midfield. Our Backrow was very disappointing.

The attack went OK until we bought the replacements on at which point we seemed to go nowhere. Youngs was appalling when he came on.

[geordie_6]

Youngs genuinely seemed to be the main issue in attack when he came on. He brought his usual passing lottery and crabbing, and everything seemed to revert to type. Forwards who had been hitting lines at pace off of JVP became static carriers again, etc etc.

Defence was abysmal at times and gifted Scotland tries by biting in on covered players (Farrell?) or just piss poor first up tackling. Ben Curry did himself no favours and certainly didn't give an indication why he should be ahead of Earls.

There were positives without a doubt, but plenty to work on.

[Paddington Bear]

Hmm. I thought it was an entertaining game of rugby, and like a lot of our recent games against Scotland we are talking about very fine margins.

Positives:
- generally the pack carried with much more dynamism than they have done of late, JVP martialled them well
- ruck speed was drastically improved even when Youngs was on
- what a joke Malins was scapegoated last year. Touched the ball what four or five times? And scored twice. Great player
- Steward was solid
- Ludlam fully justified his call up
- we tried to play rugby and gave us something to watch and support, I am hoarse
- ref kept his whistle in his pocket, for both sides

Negatives:
- kicking. A lot of Smith, JVP and Youngs’ kicking was far too long, or a waste of possession and got us nowhere. I think one of the scottish posters said on Friday he’d be comfortable for England to play a kicking game as they’d run it back with interest, so it proved. And Faz’s goal kicking was wank again, two eminently kickable conversions and we’re circling for a dg at the end, may well have managed that
- line out shaky as anything which cost us opportunities. And like it has been three years running a Scots lineout move has knocked us off guard and led directly to a smash and grab try, very frustrating. We are a dumb, reactive side
- tackles. Aaaaaahhhhh. Plenty said on that already, VdM is a fine player but he really ought to have been down in midfield. Chase was all over the place and for much of the game there were huge gaps in a non-mutually supporting defence that Scotland generally failed to exploit. France and Ireland won’t be so profligate
- Curry isn’t a bad player but Earl is much better
- Youngs noticeably made us worse and killed the momentum we were building. I remain convinced with JVP on the pitch the Scottish back row is not able to effect a turnover at the end
- blame Faz, blame whatever but Smith is not showing international class and his tricks that find gaps in the Prem are not working. Drop one of them to the bench, for me Faz starts

Overall? Better than last year. There are signs of life and some sort of gameplan. Borthwick is no miracle worker and Scotland are a good side. These things happen. However this 6N is now a very hard road, we’re going to have to go to Cardiff and turn them over, and for any sort of success as a tournament we’re talking about beating France at home. Not impossible but not the percentage play. Real shame to yet again lose on the opening day and I think if you played that game 10 times we win 6 of them at least.

[Paddington Bear]

Should also add that Dombrandt dropping the kick off just after we’d gone 8 points up was an absolute coach killer, the kind of mistake he just doesn’t make for Quins and the kind of thing England do again and again and again. Maddening how much we struggle with the basics.

Also I must register my increasing dislike for Huw Jones and his try a game vs England antics and his good looks and his exceptionally attractive wife and-

[KingBlairhorn]

If you’ll forgive the intrusion, I think you are all being quite hard on England (who isn’t after a loss though I suppose). The general consensus on the Scotland thread and also off the board with people I’ve talked to is:
a) England dominated territory and possession and looked after the ball exceptionally well. They had excellent structured possession for many phases and played the game in the right areas of the pitch. There did seem a concerted plan by Scotland not to compete too hard at the breakdown, nevertheless England absolutely bossed it there with Scotland really struggling to even slow ball let alone steal ball
b) England won the tactical kicking battle by a mile. Given Scotland have two of the best tactical kickers in the game in Hogg and Russell, that’s not to be sniffed at
c) Scotland made very very few unforced errors. Sometimes you simply come up against a team that has a very ‘on it’ day. With the exception of the very best teams (which Scotland aren’t), that won’t happen often. 9 times out of 10 I think that performance would have been enough for England.

Generally speaking I thought England looked threatening and coherent throughout the game. Given this was a completely new coaching ticket and a totally new gameplan, there is plenty to be enthused about for England. A few games and I think this team will be motoring and a different proposition from yesterday.

[Hal Jordan]

Should also add that Dombrandt dropping the kick off just after we’d gone 8 points up was an absolute coach killer, the kind of mistake he just doesn’t make for Quins and the kind of thing England do again and again and again. Maddening how much we struggle with the basics.

Also I must register my increasing dislike for Huw Jones and his try a game vs England antics and his good looks and his exceptionally attractive wife and-

Symptoms of our still malfunctioning set piece play. It was a terrible drop, but I am not sure he was supposed to catch it. Still not an excuse.

The lineout was garbage, too, screwed decent positions on a couple of occasions.

[Paddington Bear]

Should also add that Dombrandt dropping the kick off just after we’d gone 8 points up was an absolute coach killer, the kind of mistake he just doesn’t make for Quins and the kind of thing England do again and again and again. Maddening how much we struggle with the basics.

Also I must register my increasing dislike for Huw Jones and his try a game vs England antics and his good looks and his exceptionally attractive wife and-

Symptoms of our still malfunctioning set piece play. It was a terrible drop, but I am not sure he was supposed to catch it. Still not an excuse.

The lineout was garbage, too, screwed decent positions on a couple of occasions.

Over the 25ish years I’ve watched rugby, the English game from top to bottom has been typified by the kind of brain farts that see Dombrandt drop that, Youngs kick aimlessly etc. As you say may not have been meant for Dombrandt but that just proves my point that this is a wider issue than one player who tends not to make mistakes.
We maybe had a year or so hiatus around 2016 from it but to watch England is otherwise to watch stupid decision after stupid decision. There’s no doubt in my mind a side like Ireland in the same position would gave ended up winning by 15, and Wales would have held on for a win. Similarly those sides would both have won at Murrayfield last year after going ahead.
Watch any prem game and it’s the same, I’m convinced there’s something cultural in English rugby that encourages this.

[JM2K6]

With all the respect, I'm not sure the calculus works in Farrell's favour if we're looking at what worked and what didn't for both players who got plenty of time at 10 yesterday.

[Prembore]

Real shame to yet again lose on the opening day and I think if you played that game 10 times we win 6 of them at least.

As I stand watching my tee shot sail hundreds of yards down the middle of the fairway, I try to forget that my first attempt went out of bounds. Luckily I get a second chance.

[Paddington Bear]

With all the respect, I'm not sure the calculus works in Farrell's favour if we're looking at what worked and what didn't for both players who got plenty of time at 10 yesterday.

They don’t work together, pick one. Borthwick and Evans clearly agree with this but felt forced by circumstances. Time to bin off the experiment

[JM2K6]

With all the respect, I'm not sure the calculus works in Farrell's favour if we're looking at what worked and what didn't for both players who got plenty of time at 10 yesterday.

They don’t work together, pick one. Borthwick and Evans clearly agree with this but felt forced by circumstances. Time to bin off the experiment

Yes. My point was more about how both players are judged for yesterday's performance.

However, we both know that if Farrell is picked at ten, he'll never be substituted for Smith, and instead be moved to centre. So that's a wash. Whatever the fix is, it absolutely has to allow for a ten who can run the show no matter who it is.

[Kawazaki]

If you’ll forgive the intrusion, I think you are all being quite hard on England (who isn’t after a loss though I suppose). The general consensus on the Scotland thread and also off the board with people I’ve talked to is:
a) England dominated territory and possession and looked after the ball exceptionally well. They had excellent structured possession for many phases and played the game in the right areas of the pitch. There did seem a concerted plan by Scotland not to compete too hard at the breakdown, nevertheless England absolutely bossed it there with Scotland really struggling to even slow ball let alone steal ball
b) England won the tactical kicking battle by a mile. Given Scotland have two of the best tactical kickers in the game in Hogg and Russell, that’s not to be sniffed at
c) Scotland made very very few unforced errors. Sometimes you simply come up against a team that has a very ‘on it’ day. With the exception of the very best teams (which Scotland aren’t), that won’t happen often. 9 times out of 10 I think that performance would have been enough for England.

Generally speaking I thought England looked threatening and coherent throughout the game. Given this was a completely new coaching ticket and a totally new gameplan, there is plenty to be enthused about for England. A few games and I think this team will be motoring and a different proposition from yesterday.

Pfft, we don't want any of that optimism and glass half full bullshit thank you very much.

[el capitan]

Hello hello. Long time lurker taking the plunge….. Advanced warning, this might be a long post.

Can’t say I found much encouragement out of that yesterday. Yeah we tried to move the ball a bit more at a faster tempo and some seem to be taking solace in that, but I still thought that it was an extremely messy, infuriating, and overall pretty low quality performance.

There remain so many holes in the team, individually and as a collective.

The front row are talented players, and make impacts and did some nice stuff in phases yesterday, but I think too many fans almost see Genge & Sinckler and the idea of what they could be rather than what plays out on the field. Scrum remains very shaky and they don’t do the nuts and bolts at times I feel. George suffered with the lineout issues, and doesn’t seem as good around the park these days. Mako is just a waste of a shirt these days. We’re back to Dan Cole….. All in all, needs to be better.

Chessum carried well, didn’t look a gun lineout option, should be persisted with. Itoje remains very subdued currently.

Ludlam did well in patches, including for one of the tries. Curry alright but too many errors including that bit of weak defending. Dombrandt should be persisted with but he was a real mixed bag, ran a couple of great lines in the buildup to tries, but way too many soft handling errors and lazy defending at times.

9 is the biggest problem amongst many. Youngs was awful and needs to be taken out the back and dealt with. I guess with any of the rookies you will have teething problems and they need a run to bed into test rugby but JvP seems a bit scatty, needs to cut down the amount of times he’s getting caught or fumbling about at the ruck, and has a bad tendency to get excited and kick in behind at awful moments. This England team needs some control from its scrum half.

This extends to 10/12. Like anyone I think Smith is a talented kid you want to watch, not sure though he translates well to test rugby and I suspect his style is a bit too chaotic and off the cuff for England as a test team especially. It works in patches but he’s usually far too loose and aimless in what he does. The biggest problem though is that he and Farrell can’t seem to co-exist effectively, this partnership needs to be fired into the sun. In any case, I still think Ford is the best option when he’s back fit – he isn’t perfect but in the last decade England’s attack looks more structured and better over many phases with him at 10 than any other option, and if Farrell is inked in then he knows how to co-exist and make it work.

Outside backs…. Well it’s been 20 years since I was district sprint champ as a kid, but I’d still back myself to outpace any of the options we're picking in 2022/23. Malins got a couple of tries, ok. Steward is class but lacks tope end speed and we do him no favours with combos we pick him alongside, and he’s got to make more of those last man tackles. OHC seemed overawed, just tip-toed indecisively into contact and got smashed most of the time. We haven't got enough weapons that teams fear.

I’ll try to wrap it up now, but collectively:

Set piece is dodgy in all areas.

Attack managed to create some fine tries, but too often lacks precision and structure.

Defence was slow, flimsy, and lacks intensity and way too many missed tackles.

We lack proper size and power, but we also lack frightening speed. That’s one for selection, but also development

A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

All in all, much work to do! One problem (Jones) has gone, a multitude many still remain and make us a pretty poor rugby team right now.

[mos_eisely_]

A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

I think a lot of the answer there is Eddie

[SaintK]

We weren't good at anything!!!

“I’ve been frank from day one in saying there’s a lot of work to do,” Borthwick said. “When I looked at the team in the autumn, when I measured the team and got all the data for the team, we weren’t good at anything. It was as frank as that. So we are trying to build some strengths in this team and some bits we are pleased about and some bits we are disappointed about. My job is to make sure we get some improvements next week.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... anything

[JM2K6]

I don't disagree with the sentiment but the phrase "when I measured the team and got all the data for the team" is oddball as fuck. More Peter Moores than anything else.

[Paddington Bear]

England head coach Steve Borthwick has delivered a damning indictment of the squad he inherited from Eddie Jones, claiming his data demonstrates they “weren’t good at anything”.

After suffering a 29-23 Calcutta Cup defeat to Scotland in his first game in charge, Borthwick said it will take time to address underlying issues following Jones' sacking in December.

England, who have lost four of their last six matches at Twickenham, will drop behind Scotland to sixth in World Rugby’s latest rankings, and Borthwick said: “We know we’ve got a lot of work to do, I’ve been frank from day one in saying there’s a lot of work to do. When I looked at the team in the autumn, when I measured the team and got all the data, we weren’t good at anything. It was as frank as that.”

Borthwick worked as an assistant coach under Jones with both Japan and England when they reached the World Cup final and were ranked as the No 1 side in the world. Yet after Borthwick departed to join Leicester following the 2020 Six Nations title triumph, England’s decline has been precipitous.

They have won just four Six Nations matches in three years, with two of those coming against Italy. Under Jones, England were in the bottom three of tier-one countries for tries scored, defenders beaten, lineout steals and tackle success.

Borthwick highlighted the scrum - where England were ranked 11th in the world last year with an 85 per cent success rate - and the breakdown as key areas where they have been left behind by other nations.

“There’s multiple areas that we have tried to change,” Borthwick said. “I think you saw some improvement in the scrum [on Saturday] which I was pleased about because it has been ranked as the worst scrum in tier one rugby. I think we saw some improvements in the attack and speed of ball and we tried to improve the breakdown where I think England were ranked the ninth quickest, so one of the slowest in tier one. I think we saw some improvement in that regard.

“I’ve asked [the players] to do some things differently and they’ve committed wholeheartedly to that over the last 11 days. We saw improvement in a lot of areas. Some areas didn’t go so well and we need to make sure we get those addressed. Some take longer than others. We are trying to rebuild the set piece here. That takes time.”

The decline of the English set piece has been acutely felt by the squad with hooker Jamie George insisting it is up to the players to bring a fear factor back to the scrum and maul.

“That's very tough and that has to change,” George said. “We're all very, very ambitious people. We want to take England rugby back to the top and we're aware it hasn't been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn't. Eddie took the brunt of it in terms of losing his job. But at the same time, we were the people on the field. So we have to take accountability for it, too.”

Borthwick was encouraged by England’s response to going behind in the first half to Huw Jones’ well-worked try and Duhan van der Merwe’s wonder score, with Max Malins crossing twice. Ellis Genge’s try gave England a 20-12 advantage but Ben White and Van der Merwe took advantage of some suspect defending to ensure Scotland won back-to-back wins at Twickenham for the first time. Nevertheless, Borthwick believes that England have taken a step in the right direction.

“One thing I have got to do here is get the players to believe in themselves and get the players to bring their strengths to the pitch,” Borthwick said. “Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don’t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard today.

“I’d seen a habit with the team of conceding points early and not being able to respond to it. We conceded points today and the biggest thing I was looking at was the response. I thought the response was magnificent.”

Fly half Marcus Smith is among those who seemingly felt liberated by the change of backroom staff with his club coach Nick Evans on secondment from Harlequins to England.

“Being able to work with Snap [Evans] at this level is brilliant,” Smith said. “I felt myself out there. I got my hands on the ball but it just wasn’t enough. I’ll go back to the drawing board and work on it.

“We've got weapons. It's my job to try and find the best way to shoot our weapons and I'm still learning. I'll keep working on that and one day we'll get it. I think we're trying to shock ourselves as to how fast we can play, how much pressure we can put on the opposition and on ourselves to play at this speed. It's going to take time. I thought it was a much better performance than we showed in the autumn.”


Borthwick claims he was given hospital pass... the stats prove him right
Like Lord Voldemort, Eddie Jones has quickly assumed the role of he who must not be named around Twickenham.

Jones has been whitewashed from the board of media coverage inside the Twickenham press room, but an even more pointed critique of his legacy came from his successor Steve Borthwick during his post-match analysis of the 29-23 defeat to Scotland.

Not once was Jones namechecked by Borthwick but when he stated that England “weren’t good at anything” last year there is no second guessing the inference that he received a hospital pass. Even the fabled new coach bounce will only take England so far when they are working from such a low base.

The stats provided by Opta bear out Borthwick’s thesis. England were near the bottom of the pile for nearly every metric among Tier One countries in 2022, perhaps most painfully in scrum (11th) and tackle (10th) success. Behind every great England side have been a ferocious set piece and defence but somewhere along the line this got forgotten in Jones obsession with jam tomorrow.

Hooker Jamie George grimaced when mention of England’s scrum being ranked bottom among tier-one nations was put to him. “That's tough, that's tough, very, very tough and that has to change,” George said. “We're all very, very ambitious people. We want to take England rugby back to the top and we're aware that it hasn't been good enough and especially in the autumn, it wasn't.”

Of course, Borthwick was always going to draw a line in the sand with the past regime. His low Cumbrain accent was broadcast on the PA system around Twickenham before the game in a clear attempt to announce the start of a new era after the Dark Lord.

Steve Borthwick during England's warm-up - Steve Borthwick's damning verdict on Eddie Jones' England: Not good at anything
Improving England's poor scrum and tackle numbers is a key task for Borthwick CREDIT: David Rogers/Getty Images
Yet it is still striking that Borthwick was prepared to criticise the legacy bequeathed to him by his predecessor. No coach is more closely associated with Borthwick’s career than Jones, whom employed him as an assistant coach with Japan and then England. Whenever Jones needed a backer in the court of public opinion then Borthwick was always willing to mount an often lonely case for the defence.

But now that bond appears to be fraying with Borthwick also suggesting that the players lacked self-belief and confidence under Jones. “One thing I have got to do here is get the players to believe in themselves and get the players to bring their strengths to the pitch,” Borthwick said. “Get them to play to the best of themselves, which I don’t think we have seen them do for a while. I think you saw an improvement in that regard today.

“I’d seen a habit with the team of conceding points early and not being able to respond to it. We conceded points today and the biggest thing I was looking at was the response. I thought the response was magnificent.”

That response was led by Max Malins who scored a pair of first-half tries which showcased the quick ruck speed that attack coach Nick Evans had prioritised. Fly half Marcus Smith spoke of playing at a “tempo that’s a shock to us and therefore a shock to defend” and the speed of England’s play was the most striking difference in the performances from the autumn.

Smith also suggested that he felt liberated by the change of backroom staff with his club coach Evans on secondment from Harlequins to England. “Being able to work with Snap (Evans) at this level is brilliant,” Smith said. “I felt myself out there. I got my hands on the ball but it just wasn’t enough. I’ll go back to the drawing board and work on it. We've got weapons. It's my job to try and find the best way to shoot our weapons and I'm still learning. I thought it was a much better performance than we showed in the autumn.”

That pace was not always matched by accuracy. Scotland, led by two stunning scores by Duhan van der Merwe, were far more clinical with their chances in sealing back-to-back victories at Twickenham for the first time.

Of greater concern for Borthwick and new defence coach Kevin Sinfield was the number of missed tackles - 25 in all. Several of those came on Van der Merwe but both his tries came as a result of a poor kick chase. “Inexcusable” according to George.

There will be no excuses, however, when Italy come to Twickenham on Sunday with their tails up after pushing France all the way in Rome.

[Paddington Bear]

Let's assume rebuilding this side is likely to take most of the 6N (and hope that we hold off Italy and Wales).
Something that's been worrying me for a while is this pattern:
Scotland (h) - blow an 8 point lead, turnover in the Scotland 22 in what turned out to be the last play (not a grip at this game in particular but refs let time bleed off in the last 10 - the penalty was given at 79:30 which given the way the game is refereed was the last play)
NZ (h) - fail to try and take a win after a comeback (against 14 men)
Argentina (h) - Winning at half time, don't even offer a squeak of overturning the one point deficit at the end
France (a) - Five points down with 20 to play, end up not in a contest
Ireland (h) - 15-15 with 15 minutes to play, then blown away (albeit down to 14 men)
Wales (h) - damn near blow a massive lead despite Wales having offered absolutely nothing
Scotland (a) - blow a lead, fail to get close to scoring at the death to nick it

So what we're seeing is:
1) England seem to lack the fitness to go the distance, and
2) England lack the ability to win close games, particularly when it requires execution under pressure.

Coaching doesn't help with this, but our key players generally come from three clubs - Sarries, Quins and Leicester. All three you back to hold a lead, and all three you back to go down the pitch and score when they really need to in the last 10. Hard to lay at the feet of anyone but the decision makers on the pitch.

I'm concerned this is going to become a mental block - winning is a habit and we are well out of it, a side with more belief and more coherence 1) wouldn't have blown the 8 point lead, but 2) would have scored at the end to nick it. We're more than good enough to stick in games, but our opponents seem much more adept at harnessing the winning habit.

[Simian]

Dawson makes exactly the same point in his piece on the BBC site.

[Paddington Bear]

Dawson makes exactly the same point in his piece on the BBC site.

That's devastating, might delete the post

[Simian]

Dawson makes exactly the same point in his piece on the BBC site.

That's devastating, might delete the post

Lol

Even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day and all that!

[el capitan]

A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

I think a lot of the answer there is Eddie

Totally accept that the regime & environment they were coming into was a massive factor and an inhibitor, but it goes way beyond that for me.

Just seems the last few years that the players we tout for "pace" or "power" come in and look bang average at these USP's. Of course test rugby is going to be a step up and a player is going to need time to find his feet, but from what I watch those who do come in don't really exhibit outstanding attributes and find it a shock to get to the required intensity and precision/consistency/error-free demands of performance.

Bedford are my team so I comment on the Prem as an outside observer. Whilst it's a competitive, close, entertaining league I'd question if it's great quality - Euro results across the board are hardly great are they - and does the development job in equipping players with the skills and standards for the top level.

[Raggs]

Now I watched after a game of my own, and a pint or two in, but from what I saw, we sort of went OK in the pack. Itoje made some OK carry attempts, Chessum was busy. Didn't see much from George, and Ben is not Tom. Assuming Willis now is training full time with England, I'd look to bring him in onto the bench for a good run out, and start Earl? When is Tom back?

OHC didn't seem to get much opportunity, Malins was very good in what I saw. Farrell did his usual defensive mess ups, but he ran some nice lines (held the defence really well allowing Marcus's cross field), not sure I saw much from Marchant, but not much bad either?

[sockwithaticket]

A discussion for another day, but too many players are coming in from the Prem and looking not ready for the test arena. The spotlight needs to be on why this is….

I think a lot of the answer there is Eddie

Totally accept that the regime & environment they were coming into was a massive factor and an inhibitor, but it goes way beyond that for me.

Just seems the last few years that the players we tout for "pace" or "power" come in and look bang average at these USP's. Of course test rugby is going to be a step up and a player is going to need time to find his feet, but from what I watch those who do come in don't really exhibit outstanding attributes and find it a shock to get to the required intensity and precision/consistency/error-free demands of performance.

Bedford are my team so I comment on the Prem as an outside observer. Whilst it's a competitive, close, entertaining league I'd question if it's great quality - Euro results across the board are hardly great are they - and does the development job in equipping players with the skills and standards for the top level.

LIke who? Beause I can't think of many fresh players who've been brought in for those qualities. More often than not it felt like honest toilers were preferred while those with the x-factor were mostly ignored or given 10 minutes here and there eg. Porter over Marchant.

It's also much easier for new players to come in and thrive if they're dropped into a winning team (or at least a functional one...). Ideally you'd also be drip-feeding players in one or two at a time and whether it be injuries or the whims of the departed dear leader we often seemed to be dropping in quite a few inexperienced players and dealing with constantly changing combinations, particularly in the backline.

That's not to say it's all on Eddie, but we've seen some of our players go well for the Lions and for their teams in Europe so I'm not convinced that their attributes simpy aren't as good as we think their Prem form suggests.