Ireland v France match thread

[CM11]

It felt very classic of Irish wins, you get to the end and struggle to remember an attack the opposition had. If you can’t get the ball in the opposition’s half, you’re very rarely going to win games of rugby

Thing is, France had a decent amount of ball in our half but not a lot in our 22. We scrambled really well. The metres run from both sides is ridiculous, but it was fairly even, 687/649. Similar number of linebreaks. A lot more defenders beaten by France, more offloads. France actually played some beautiful rugby but didn't have the phase game to make it count.

[TheFrog]

One thing that hasn't been commented here and which I think is significant, is that Ireland have proven they have enough depth to lose key players and still win. This was my only question/doubt about their RWC prospects. They have answered in style yesterday.

In fact, it looks as if France were the team with depth issue, struggling to adjust to Danty's absence for example. Danty as been a cornerstone of French rugby last year, and our defense was designed to channel the opposition in his area where his big arms would do wonders at the rucks. In addition, his power on the gain line mobilized defenses and allowed us to create space elsewhere.

[C69]

Still amazing how the try was given even at the time it looked obviously in touch.

[CM11]

One thing that hasn't been commented here and which I think is significant, is that Ireland have proven they have enough depth to lose key players and still win. This was my only question/doubt about their RWC prospects. They have answered in style yesterday.

In fact, it looks as if France were the team with depth issue, struggling to adjust to Danty's absence for example. Danty as been a cornerstone of French rugby last year, and our defense was designed to channel the opposition in his area where his big arms would do wonders at the rucks. In addition, his power on the gain line mobilized defenses and allowed us to create space elsewhere.

Yup.

Delighted with the showing of the backups. You'd probably think that Doris and maybe Keenan have elevated themselves above the rest, maybe even above Sexton now, as our can't afford to lose them players though.

[CM11]

Still amazing how the try was given even at the time it looked obviously in touch.

You need to look at in motion to understand the doubt. If his foot didn't touch the ground, it brushed it millimeters above it but it's a question for the TMO, who has access to more technology to determine certainty.

No one would have batted an eyelid if it was disallowed. And would have been if Barnes asked try or not.

[TheFrog]

Still amazing how the try was given even at the time it looked obviously in touch.
[/img]

That image wasn't shown to the ref or the TMO. End of.
Doesn't change the outcome of the game. France saved another 3 tries in their in goal area. We were going backward with every green wave thrown at us.

[TheFrog]

One thing that hasn't been commented here and which I think is significant, is that Ireland have proven they have enough depth to lose key players and still win. This was my only question/doubt about their RWC prospects. They have answered in style yesterday.

In fact, it looks as if France were the team with depth issue, struggling to adjust to Danty's absence for example. Danty as been a cornerstone of French rugby last year, and our defense was designed to channel the opposition in his area where his big arms would do wonders at the rucks. In addition, his power on the gain line mobilized defenses and allowed us to create space elsewhere.

Yup.

Delighted with the showing of the backups. You'd probably think that Doris and maybe Keenan have elevated themselves above the rest, maybe even above Sexton now, as our can't afford to lose them players though.

Indeed, Doris and Keenan are the world best in their position, and so is VDF. Keenan played a huge part in how Ireland controlled France in the last 20 minutes of the game and killed any hope of a come back.

Don't know whether their being substituted could have a massive impact. When I think how much we missed Aldritt at his best, may be.

[CM11]

Still amazing how the try was given even at the time it looked obviously in touch.
[/img]

That image wasn't shown to the ref or the TMO. End of.
Doesn't change the outcome of the game. France saved another 3 tries in their in goal area. We were going backward with every green wave thrown at us.

I don't know what you mean by 'it wasn't shown to the TMO'. I've already pointed out yesterday that it's confirmed that the TMO has access to all angles and it's up to him to chose which ones he looks at.

Even that angle isn't conclusive when you look at it in motion and compare it to the others.

But it's very much a TMO error if it's an error. Nothing to do with 'what he was shown'.

[Duff Paddy]

One thing that hasn't been commented here and which I think is significant, is that Ireland have proven they have enough depth to lose key players and still win. This was my only question/doubt about their RWC prospects. They have answered in style yesterday.

In fact, it looks as if France were the team with depth issue, struggling to adjust to Danty's absence for example. Danty as been a cornerstone of French rugby last year, and our defense was designed to channel the opposition in his area where his big arms would do wonders at the rucks. In addition, his power on the gain line mobilized defenses and allowed us to create space elsewhere.

It is all set up very nicely for the World Cup

France will be at home for that so they will be getting all of the marginal calls that day. I don’t think there’s much between the two teams, so home advantage would swing it.

[ASMO]

Apart from about 150kg of blubber, not sure what Antonio brings to the table, distincly average in the set piece, non existant in the loose and about 10 mins late to the defensive line.

[dob]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

Nah. Second half we got a few decisions but they got a few bits as well. Forward here knee on the ground there

McCloskey got away with one on our line. Definitely off his feet at one point of his turnover but Barnes rewarded him. This was after VDF was lying on the wrong side of the ruck slowing French ball a phase or 2 before.

There was also that nonsense pen for Murray getting hit in the air. Was bugger all in it imo.

But still, we were well worth our margin of victory.

I thought McCloskey latched onto the ball while on his feet, then dropped a knee as the carrier didn’t let go, then got back up. If there’d been a true hall release, he stays upright and wins the turnover.

[CM11]

Nah. Second half we got a few decisions but they got a few bits as well. Forward here knee on the ground there

McCloskey got away with one on our line. Definitely off his feet at one point of his turnover but Barnes rewarded him. This was after VDF was lying on the wrong side of the ruck slowing French ball a phase or 2 before.

There was also that nonsense pen for Murray getting hit in the air. Was bugger all in it imo.

But still, we were well worth our margin of victory.

I thought McCloskey latched onto the ball while on his feet, then dropped a knee as the carrier didn’t let go, then got back up. If there’d been a true hall release, he stays upright and wins the turnover.

Yep.

[dob]

Apart from about 150kg of blubber, not sure what Antonio brings to the table, distincly average in the set piece, non existant in the loose and about 10 mins late to the defensive line.

The same Ireland team found him incredibly hard to contain 12 months ago. Everyone has their off days.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

Barnes definitely gave the rub to Ireland but no complaints from me in respect of the result because it changed nothing. Unlike the cheating Brace.

In regards Porndog's accusation of Atonio deliberately engaging in foul play, frankly, bollox. Under Galthie/Edwards, all the Fre players know that compromising the team is curtains. Will bet Ramos is dropped next week simply for going of script. Atonio is too fat: he was down to walking before that incident and simply wasn't fit enough to tie his laces at that point. To be clear, again, I would have redded him. But it was down to his laughable fitness.

[Torquemada 1420]

Apart from about 150kg of blubber, not sure what Antonio brings to the table, distincly average in the set piece, non existant in the loose and about 10 mins late to the defensive line.

He's an anachronism. His type should have been consigned to the bin with professionalism but infinite subs allow jokes like him to make a career masquerading as "sports"men.

[Torquemada 1420]

One thing that hasn't been commented here and which I think is significant, is that Ireland have proven they have enough depth to lose key players and still win. This was my only question/doubt about their RWC prospects. They have answered in style yesterday.

In fact, it looks as if France were the team with depth issue, struggling to adjust to Danty's absence for example. Danty as been a cornerstone of French rugby last year, and our defense was designed to channel the opposition in his area where his big arms would do wonders at the rucks. In addition, his power on the gain line mobilized defenses and allowed us to create space elsewhere.

BECAUSE................ go on, you know you can get there..............because Ntamack so cripples the backline for pace and depth, the only way to get go forward is off crash balls. Hence why Moefana (who isn't an intl anyway) is an empty shirt in this set up.

[paddyor]

Re: France having peaked.

What we saw was that France struggled to prevent Irish possession. They could not find anyway to turn over the ball. Thst is one big change.

The other one is that France changed its tactics and try to play ball in hand, including attacking from our 22s. And we are clearly not there yet. So far, we had almost exclusively fed from turnovers or launched attacks from set piece in the opposition 22s. This time we tried to run the ball often and failed. Most of it was down to Ireland being very effective at slowing our ball. I would like to see the stats showing French rucks speed vs Ireland. For all the - deserved criticism - of Ntamack, a good attack starts with fast rucks.

There was clear intent to starve Ireland or possession from France. Right from the start they didn’t want Ireland getting off to a flyer like they did against wales. I think the point was more to draw the peno and take the 3 than bang in the tries. Willemse isn’t really the horse for that course imo(combined running of over 1200m) even if you just play him for 40 odd minutes

[TheFrog]

Nah. Second half we got a few decisions but they got a few bits as well. Forward here knee on the ground there

McCloskey got away with one on our line. Definitely off his feet at one point of his turnover but Barnes rewarded him. This was after VDF was lying on the wrong side of the ruck slowing French ball a phase or 2 before.

There was also that nonsense pen for Murray getting hit in the air. Was bugger all in it imo.

But still, we were well worth our margin of victory.

I thought McCloskey latched onto the ball while on his feet, then dropped a knee as the carrier didn’t let go, then got back up. If there’d been a true hall release, he stays upright and wins the turnover.

This often gets penalized, just like hands on the deck where the jackaller goes for the ball, tackled player holds on, jackaller loses balance in the effort of trying to lift and puts hands on ground. If the tackled player had let go, it would have been a turnover.

But I agree that on that ruck McCloskey was entitled to the ball on his first attempt.

It seems that refs tolerate holding on for a second or so

[TheFrog]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

Barnes definitely gave the rub to Ireland but no complaints from me in respect of the result because it changed nothing. Unlike the cheating Brace.

Don't agree. First half, I thought he was kind to France (remember he didn't see the right footage for the Lowe try). He did seem to compensate during the first 10-15 minutes of the second half when France had their tail up though, making harsh calls against France (like against Dumortier in the air) and ignoring a couple blatant acts of cynical play like, again, the obstruction on Dumortier

[TheFrog]

One thing that hasn't been commented here and which I think is significant, is that Ireland have proven they have enough depth to lose key players and still win. This was my only question/doubt about their RWC prospects. They have answered in style yesterday.

In fact, it looks as if France were the team with depth issue, struggling to adjust to Danty's absence for example. Danty as been a cornerstone of French rugby last year, and our defense was designed to channel the opposition in his area where his big arms would do wonders at the rucks. In addition, his power on the gain line mobilized defenses and allowed us to create space elsewhere.

BECAUSE................ go on, you know you can get there..............because Ntamack so cripples the backline for pace and depth, the only way to get go forward is off crash balls. Hence why Moefana (who isn't an intl anyway) is an empty shirt in this set up.

No team ever needs to concentrate defenses before finding space for the backs. They all rely on the odd exceptional genius who can create linebreaks out of thin air.

Have you watched Ireland play? Have you seen Sexton amazing pace and side step tearing apart the French defense, or McCloskey running into space from a first hand move thanks to an amazing Sexton pass?

Look at the tries again?

Keenan, comes off a ruck from a crash ball and exploit a space near the ruck.

Lowe, comes from a sequence attacking the midfield creating an overlap.

The third one was pick'n go

The fourth one a serie of crashball creating the overlap and an offload out of this world.

[PornDog]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

Barnes definitely gave the rub to Ireland but no complaints from me in respect of the result because it changed nothing. Unlike the cheating Brace.

In regards Porndog's accusation of Atonio deliberately engaging in foul play, frankly, bollox. Under Galthie/Edwards, all the Fre players know that compromising the team is curtains. Will bet Ramos is dropped next week simply for going of script. Atonio is too fat: he was down to walking before that incident and simply wasn't fit enough to tie his laces at that point. To be clear, again, I would have redded him. But it was down to his laughable fitness.

As I tried to make clear in my post, it's not an accusation against Atonio per se, it's against World Rugby for allowing that type of tackle to become so common place. It happens several times in pretty much every fucking game and its infuriating that there seems to be zero intent to do anything about it.

However, also to be clear, he tucked his arm and led with the shoulder. Thats an irrefutable objective fact of the collision. He wasn't caught by surprise, or wrong footed, he chose to do that. That is a deliberate act of foul play and should be treated accordingly. It has become so commonplace that people (fans and players alike) don't see it as the serious foul play that it is. The fact that huge numbers of other players also do it in every other game is not a reason to be lax with it, it is reason for urgent action to come down on it via a World Rugby directive.

I'm not asking for retroactive punishments (not even for Owen Farrell ) but if they can bring in a shot clock for penalties and lineouts mid season then they can finally outlaw (in practice instead of lip service) the fucking shoulder charge. Issue a directive and be done with it.

For what its worth, I'd also double all bans if it is judged that the player entered the contact area illegally in the first place. People talk about not being able to judge intent - well if they tucked their arm and led with the shoulder* then that is exactly that - intent to commit foul play.


* That is to differentiate it with say Liam Williams last week, who didn't intentionally lead with the shoulder but did fail to lower his height. That had no intent, though was still foul play (and a harsh YC in my view - that was genuinely with low force)

[TheFrog]

Talk of Atonio not getting low misses the point (he didn't of course and that's relevant, but it's not the starting point). The issue is that his arm was tucked and he led with the shoulder. And this was not once referred to by anyone - ref or commentator alike.

It was a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the force of the collision. I'm not trying to hang Atonio out to dry here because World Rugby has allowed this type of "tackle" to become almost ubiquitous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the level of force.

Not all shoulder contacts are necessarily like that, but where it is, a deliberate tuck, the starting point no matter the contact area or amount of force, should be a yellow card. If its with high force, again regardless of contact area, it should be upgraded to red. They are just far too dangerous and far too common. World Rugby is asleep at the wheel.

If someone is tripped we'd all be calling for a yellow, but a shoulder is much much more dangerous than a trip. It's crazy this has been allowed to become so common.

Look, I don't disagree that 90% of the refs would have given him a red card there, because there was a shoulder to a head.

Now, when you tackle, you have to hit with your shoulder. The only case you don't do that is a chase tackle.

Otherwise, when you engage into a tackle, you hit with the shoulder. Trying to use just the arms will leave you with a dislocated limb (unless again you allow the attacker to run pass you and tackle from the side or behind, and still, from the side, you will engage your shoulder).

[Torquemada 1420]

No team ever needs to concentrate defenses before finding space for the backs. They all rely on the odd exceptional genius who can create linebreaks out of thin air.

Have you watched Ireland play? Have you seen Sexton amazing pace and side step tearing apart the French defense, or McCloskey running into space from a first hand move thanks to an amazing Sexton pass?

Look at the tries again?

Keenan, comes off a ruck from a crash ball and exploit a space near the ruck.

Lowe, comes from a sequence attacking the midfield creating an overlap.

The third one was pick'n go

The fourth one a serie of crashball creating the overlap and an offload out of this world.

That reads like witness testimony for the prosecution............ against Ntamack. If a 37 year old geriatric can do it, what's Ntamack's excuse?

Gaps round the rucks: you can lay the blame in lots of places. Atonio for being a lard arse. Willemse for looking as slow as Atonio at the moment. Alldritt looking exhausted simply singing the Marseillaise. Ollivon being a mile of his best (although I don't think he missed a tackle yesterday).

[Torquemada 1420]

If someone is tripped we'd all be calling for a yellow, but a shoulder is much much more dangerous than a trip.

Tell that to Stuart Abbott or Alexis Palisson.

[PornDog]

Talk of Atonio not getting low misses the point (he didn't of course and that's relevant, but it's not the starting point). The issue is that his arm was tucked and he led with the shoulder. And this was not once referred to by anyone - ref or commentator alike.

It was a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the force of the collision. I'm not trying to hang Atonio out to dry here because World Rugby has allowed this type of "tackle" to become almost ubiquitous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the level of force.

Not all shoulder contacts are necessarily like that, but where it is, a deliberate tuck, the starting point no matter the contact area or amount of force, should be a yellow card. If its with high force, again regardless of contact area, it should be upgraded to red. They are just far too dangerous and far too common. World Rugby is asleep at the wheel.

If someone is tripped we'd all be calling for a yellow, but a shoulder is much much more dangerous than a trip. It's crazy this has been allowed to become so common.

Look, I don't disagree that 90% of the refs would have given him a red card there, because there was a shoulder to a head.

Now, when you tackle, you have to hit with your shoulder. The only case you don't do that is a chase tackle.

Otherwise, when you engage into a tackle, you hit with the shoulder. Trying to use just the arms will leave you with a dislocated limb (unless again you allow the attacker to run pass you and tackle from the side or behind, and still, from the side, you will engage your shoulder).

When you tuck your arm AND lead with the shoulder you are increasing the 'hardness' of the contact point and reducing the area of the contact point - greatly increasing the localised force. Think of getting hit with a hammer versus a cushion - extreme comparison of course but its the same principal.

When the arm is raised your shoulder is indeed still making contact, but that shoulder has a great deal more muscle up over the hard boney point compared to when the arm is tucked. This is why it's illegal. It's why it has always been illegal.

It used to be as shocking for a fan to see it as a trip is now, but for some bizarre fucking ineptitude of World Rugby it has now become commonplace.

[Torquemada 1420]

It used to be as shocking for a fan to see it as a trip is now, but for some bizarre fucking ineptitude of World Rugby it has now become commonplace.

And it used to be a straight red. Rightly so.

[TheFrog]

No team ever needs to concentrate defenses before finding space for the backs. They all rely on the odd exceptional genius who can create linebreaks out of thin air.

Have you watched Ireland play? Have you seen Sexton amazing pace and side step tearing apart the French defense, or McCloskey running into space from a first hand move thanks to an amazing Sexton pass?

Look at the tries again?

Keenan, comes off a ruck from a crash ball and exploit a space near the ruck.

Lowe, comes from a sequence attacking the midfield creating an overlap.

The third one was pick'n go

The fourth one a serie of crashball creating the overlap and an offload out of this world.

That reads like witness testimony for the prosecution............ against Ntamack. If a 37 year old geriatric can do it, what's Ntamack's excuse?

Gaps round the rucks: you can lay the blame in lots of places. Atonio for being a lard arse. Willemse for looking as slow as Atonio at the moment. Alldritt looking exhausted simply singing the Marseillaise. Ollivon being a mile of his best (although I don't think he missed a tackle yesterday).

Because Sexton gets fast ball, before the defense has had time to scramble back into position.

[Torquemada 1420]

Because Sexton gets fast ball, before the defense has had time to scramble back into position.

Got it. It's Dupont who is the weak link.

He only speeds the ball up when Jalibert comes on.

[TheFrog]

Because Sexton gets fast ball, before the defense has had time to scramble back into position.

Got it. It's Dupont who is the weak link.

He only speeds the ball up when Jalibert comes on.

Are you doing this on purpose?

[GogLais]

Talk of Atonio not getting low misses the point (he didn't of course and that's relevant, but it's not the starting point). The issue is that his arm was tucked and he led with the shoulder. And this was not once referred to by anyone - ref or commentator alike.

It was a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the force of the collision. I'm not trying to hang Atonio out to dry here because World Rugby has allowed this type of "tackle" to become almost ubiquitous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the level of force.

Not all shoulder contacts are necessarily like that, but where it is, a deliberate tuck, the starting point no matter the contact area or amount of force, should be a yellow card. If its with high force, again regardless of contact area, it should be upgraded to red. They are just far too dangerous and far too common. World Rugby is asleep at the wheel.

If someone is tripped we'd all be calling for a yellow, but a shoulder is much much more dangerous than a trip. It's crazy this has been allowed to become so common.

I thought Barnes had a good game overall but his “not a high degree of danger” for that incident was baffling - it doesn’t get much more dangerous than a 6’4 20 stone monster shouldering you in the head

Should discussions between the officials not be public? I ask because once Barnes says that it’s hard for the other officials to debate it with him other than by veiled hints. Announce the reason for the decision after the discussion by all means.

[C69]

Still amazing how the try was given even at the time it looked obviously in touch.

You need to look at in motion to understand the doubt. If his foot didn't touch the ground, it brushed it millimeters above it but it's a question for the TMO, who has access to more technology to determine certainty.

No one would have batted an eyelid if it was disallowed. And would have been if Barnes asked try or not.

I looked at it in motion live and thought it was an outrageously bad call.
As a neutral Barnes ruined the match

[CM11]

Barnes wasn't the TMO and he got the grounding right.

[dob]

Because Sexton gets fast ball, before the defense has had time to scramble back into position.

Got it. It's Dupont who is the weak link.

He only speeds the ball up when Jalibert comes on.

Had I only realized Torq was here all along, I would’ve quit real PR years ago.

[CM11]

Also, there were only 15 penalties and 26 setpieces. Over 1200 combined metres run. Over 50 defenders beaten. And so on. It was a fantastic match that Barnes had very little to do with. Couple of marginal calls for either side but apart from that he let it flow, communicated clearly and did his best not to be part of the match.

[earl the beaver]

Halfway through watching the match as I missed it yesterday, the Antonio yellow is such an awful decision.

[CM11]

Honestly, I'm happy with it. More and more I'm in favor of punishing the player, not team.

[Torquemada 1420]

Because Sexton gets fast ball, before the defense has had time to scramble back into position.

Got it. It's Dupont who is the weak link.

He only speeds the ball up when Jalibert comes on.

Had I only realized Torq was here all along, I would’ve quit real PR years ago.

I'm flattered.

Who are you?

[earl the beaver]

Honestly, I'm happy with it. More and more I'm in favor of punishing the player, not team.

Nah, the red is a deterrent, you have to enforce it.

[CM11]

Honestly, I'm happy with it. More and more I'm in favor of punishing the player, not team.

Nah, the red is a deterrent, you have to enforce it.

You can still punish the player as a deterrent. Leave them off. It stlll harms the team somewhat, especially early in the game.

[Winnie]

Nah, the red is a deterrent, you have to enforce it.

You can still punish the player as a deterrent. Leave them off. It stlll harms the team somewhat, especially early in the game.

That is a weird concept. It's a team game. The team are meant to be harmed. That's the very heart of team sports and anyway if you didn't harm the team you could send bruisers out to maim people in the big matches and not face any meaningful consequence.

As you have made here your new home Ever Ready, how have you been keeping?