Welsh player strike

[GogLais]

Gatland agreeing to shift the team announcement to put pressure on the players not to strike is very scummy.

I was going to say it seems very odd. Are they expecting that enough players will break ranks? It must be bloody hard for those at the start of their international careers.

[Biffer]

Sorry for not being clearer - I was really meaning the WRU should be looking at the SRU approach and taking the best/working bits of it. Rather than seeking to emulate the IRFU model, which seems to have been their goal?

Yes, completely agree. That Glasgow now has a pretty sustainable pro rugby team and seemingly Cardiff and Swansea don't is pretty remarkable, and the authorities in Wales need to learn some lessons from it.

Interesting to break those attendance figures down a little - Quins rely on big occasions to up their average, two games at Twickenham accounted for nearly half their total attendance, it's a bit disappointing they don't manage to convert some of those fans into regulars at the Stoop. Saracens have similar but smaller effect with 40k in one game at Spurs (and given it's Sarries who knows how many of those were freebies). I'm not for a second saying these sales or attendances shouldn't count, more that it emphasises just how much bigger Leicester are week to week, game to game, than the rest (although I hadn't realised how good Bristol's crowds are, that's great to see).

Big games definitely a factor. With that said, it doesn't change my point around the relative success of the Prem. No side in 2000 could have contemplated these big games, and it's probably a decade since Sarries were giving tickets away for free to Wembley. So when Quins get 70,000+ over Christmas and Sarries get 40,000 at WHL in a month or so they're doing so on the back of paying customers for the Premiership product, a measure of success if ever there was one.
No disagreement that it is a shame that these numbers are 'soft', however I think that's the nature of the beast. For most people rugby is a day out a few times a year, and Quins clearly recognised that by emptying Clapham of blokes aged 22-35 for their 'big summer kick off'. Nothing wrong with taking their money.

Leicester always have been the anomaly and I'm fascinated as to why. Going to Welford Road has a different feel to any other ground in Britain I've been to, just a sense that this is a big side on a par with a football club rather than something else. Hard to describe. All the more interesting given the majority of their supporter base won't live in the city and they buck the general English trend of larger rugby club = shit and small football club.

Anyway, when are we replacing Wales with Georgia?

No disagreement from me, it's great to see big crowds (although I'm always sceptical of how many of the Sarries crowd were paying). We have a similar problem with soft numbers in Edinburgh, with 25,000 showing up to the Glasgow game at Christmas every year, and a few knockout European games getting big crowds (37,000 for a home QF v Toulouse in 2012).

I'm interested in why Leicester is so much of an outlier (albeit in a good way) myself - I lived in Nottingham for a couple of years and went to a lot of games at Welford Road while I was there. It's a really good ground to watch in and I liked the atmosphere. Leicester's football club did used to be pretty shit to be fair. It may be that they always viewed themselves as a regional team in many ways, and always drew supporters from all over the county. They can, and do, present themselves as a regional team.

[Biffer]

Gatland agreeing to shift the team announcement to put pressure on the players not to strike is very scummy.

I was going to say it seems very odd. Are they expecting that enough players will break ranks? It must be bloody hard for those at the start of their international careers.

I'm certain that it'll be all out if the do it. None of the squad will break ranks.

[GogLais]

Gatland agreeing to shift the team announcement to put pressure on the players not to strike is very scummy.

I was going to say it seems very odd. Are they expecting that enough players will break ranks? It must be bloody hard for those at the start of their international careers.

I'm certain that it'll be all out if the do it. None of the squad will break ranks.

That’s what I’d expect as well. It just makes the delay in naming the team seem pointless.

[sockwithaticket]

Sorry for not being clearer - I was really meaning the WRU should be looking at the SRU approach and taking the best/working bits of it. Rather than seeking to emulate the IRFU model, which seems to have been their goal?

Yes, completely agree. That Glasgow now has a pretty sustainable pro rugby team and seemingly Cardiff and Swansea don't is pretty remarkable, and the authorities in Wales need to learn some lessons from it.

Interesting to break those attendance figures down a little - Quins rely on big occasions to up their average, two games at Twickenham accounted for nearly half their total attendance, it's a bit disappointing they don't manage to convert some of those fans into regulars at the Stoop. Saracens have similar but smaller effect with 40k in one game at Spurs (and given it's Sarries who knows how many of those were freebies). I'm not for a second saying these sales or attendances shouldn't count, more that it emphasises just how much bigger Leicester are week to week, game to game, than the rest (although I hadn't realised how good Bristol's crowds are, that's great to see).

Big games definitely a factor. With that said, it doesn't change my point around the relative success of the Prem. No side in 2000 could have contemplated these big games, and it's probably a decade since Sarries were giving tickets away for free to Wembley. So when Quins get 70,000+ over Christmas and Sarries get 40,000 at WHL in a month or so they're doing so on the back of paying customers for the Premiership product, a measure of success if ever there was one.
No disagreement that it is a shame that these numbers are 'soft', however I think that's the nature of the beast. For most people rugby is a day out a few times a year, and Quins clearly recognised that by emptying Clapham of blokes aged 22-35 for their 'big summer kick off'. Nothing wrong with taking their money.

Leicester always have been the anomaly and I'm fascinated as to why. Going to Welford Road has a different feel to any other ground in Britain I've been to, just a sense that this is a big side on a par with a football club rather than something else. Hard to describe. All the more interesting given the majority of their supporter base won't live in the city and they buck the general English trend of larger rugby club = shit and small football club.

Anyway, when are we replacing Wales with Georgia?

No disagreement from me, it's great to see big crowds (although I'm always sceptical of how many of the Sarries crowd were paying). We have a similar problem with soft numbers in Edinburgh, with 25,000 showing up to the Glasgow game at Christmas every year, and a few knockout European games getting big crowds (37,000 for a home QF v Toulouse in 2012).

I'm interested in why Leicester is so much of an outlier (albeit in a good way) myself - I lived in Nottingham for a couple of years and went to a lot of games at Welford Road while I was there. It's a really good ground to watch in and I liked the atmosphere. Leicester's football club did used to be pretty shit to be fair. It may be that they always viewed themselves as a regional team in many ways, and always drew supporters from all over the county. They can, and do, present themselves as a regional team.

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

[SaintK]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

[sockwithaticket]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Before my time, but Birmingham & Solihull was a pretty decent club wasn't it?

[PornDog]

I have a lot of sympathy for the players' cause, and how much of a shit show the WRU seem to have created.

But, reading some of the articles online recently, you get the sense that pro rugby players have a sense of entitlement that because they are rugby players they deserve stability and job security. I get that rugby as an industry has more going for it than a steel plant or investment banking in terms of its benefits for wider society, but if demand for a product doesn't exist in other industries, then the industry adjusts and cuts its headcount.

One of my sons played for a Welsh Premier club in Wales. He could not believe the amount of money players got compared to the equivalent in Scotland, but he has also mentioned the sense of entitlement.

The amounts paid at that level inflated the salaries at the bottom of the pro level, and so on up the scale. As far as he could tell, the Welsh players at all levels absolutely believed that they were worth every penny, and if they got more than elsewhere, that was just because they were better.

That would explain where a lot of the money is going then I guess. I know it would be a pretty small amount on an individual basis, but how many players would that be that are getting paid to play 'amatuer' grade rugby and are not contributing their subs?

Don't get me wrong - the Aussie route where you had amateur subs financing the pro game is (was hopefully?) an even worse situation, but it that is just so wrong. If it becomes a battle between pro players vs 'amatuer' players (no doubt with their clubs' support), its hard to see how this is going to get resolved without completely blowing up!

[sockwithaticket]

Found this on reddit

The WRU takes in as much money as the IRFU. Why are its finances in chaos?

https://thecurrency.news/articles/11052 ... -in-chaos/

Looking at the state of Welsh rugby — players threatening to strike, empty club stadiums, empty club trophy cabinets, bad losses in the six nations, disgraced officials — I’ve often wondered: where did all the money go?

What I mean is, in most countries, the sport of professional rugby is underwritten by ticket sales from six home international matches each year.

Wales is blessed with the best stadium in rugby — the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. It’s got the best atmosphere. It’s also massive, with a 74,000 capacity (compared to 52,000 for Lansdowne Road). Wales fills it six times per year.

What explains this disconnect? If the Millennium Stadium is full six times a year, why is Welsh rugby on its knees?

Different paths The big difference between Ireland and Wales is the way they manage and fund professional club rugby.

In Ireland at the beginning of the professional era, the IRFU decided its clubs were too small to be viable. So it elevated the provinces, which are wholly-owned arms of the IRFU. The IRFU funds the provinces directly, pays some players' salaries, and underwrites provinces' investments. Irish rugby has wholeheartedly bought into this setup. The fans, players and officials all have an interest in making it work.

Superficially, the WRU did something similar. It decided the old clubs were too small to be viable. It consolidated them into four regions.

The big difference is that the WRU didn't own the regions. It didn't control them, it wasn't responsible for their finances, and it didn't fund them heavily.

The Welsh regions never caught on. They weren't well enough funded to build great teams. Their teams weren't good enough to draw big crowds. In the critical early years of professionalism, when everything was up for grabs, they didn't win hearts and minds. A generation of Welsh kids didn't grow up dreaming of playing for them.

The following chart compares WRU and IRFU spending on the professional game plus spending on elite player development. Despite the WRU belatedly ramping up spending on professional rugby in last year, the proportionate gap in pro rugby funding between the two unions has grown in the last ten years.

The IRFU's spending on the pro game pays dividends in lots of ways: higher gates, more kids playing the game, more commercial revenue. One direct way it pays off is in higher competition revenue: prize money for succeeding in competitions. The Irish provinces now take in significantly more competition revenue than their Welsh counterparts.

Governance At this point it's worth talking about how the two unions are governed. In Ireland, clubs and schools nominate members to the provincial branches, and the branches nominate members of the IRFU committee.

In Wales, by contrast, the clubs feed into a regional district which — crucially — is distinct from the professional regions. The regional districts nominate members of the WRU board.

So in Ireland, the board is derived from the four provinces, which run the professional game. In Wales, the board is derived from the clubs, which are independent of the professional game.

So in Ireland, the top committee is dominated by representatives from professional clubs. In Wales, it's dominated by the amateur game.

The WRU's priorities If the WRU wasn't heavily funding professional rugby, where did it spend the money?

The WRU spends much more heavily than the IRFU on overheads. The IRFU spent €11.5 million on administration, marketing and support in 2022. Across the categories of business and administration, direct costs and hospitality costs, the WRU spent €28.6 million. On overheads and the amateur game, the WRU pent €23 million more than the IRFU last year. This is almost exactly the amount the IRFU outspent the WRU on the pro game.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualis ... n/11923704

https://public.flourish.studio/visualis ... n/12785198

It would be one thing if the WRU was a bit wasteful with its current spending. But the problems run deeper than that. Twenty years of loose spending have the WRU's balance sheet in bad shape. The WRU owes €24 million of secured bank debt. The IRFU's debt lives with the Lansdowne Road stadium, in a separate company jointly owned with the FAI.

The following chart compares the amount of equity, or net assets, held by the IRFU and WRU.

The Midas curse

The Millennium Stadium was a blessing and a curse for the WRU. They developed it at a cost of only €137 million, using lots of government funding and interest-free loans from fans. It came at the perfect time, right at the beginning of the professional era. Unlike the Scottish Rugby Union with Murrayfield stadium, the WRU wasn't saddled with heavy debts to pay for it.

Because the Millennium Stadium was such a cash cow, the WRU didn't come under any pressure to get its house in order. It could throw money at politically well-connected clubs and at the blazers. And even if the regions never took off, it didn't matter because the national team kept trucking along, drawing crowds to Cardiff.

But any company can only get by on its past investments for so long. The pro game in Wales has been chronically underfunded for decades now, and it's starting to show in the national team. Wales is currently ranked ninth in the world, and there's no sign of things turning around. And attendances have been falling in the Millennium Stadium.

Irish readers will find it hard not to be reminded of John Delaney's FAI. That organisation was managed in the interests of its hangers-on — the clubs, and their friends in blazers.

[Sandstorm]

Found this on reddit

The WRU takes in as much money as the IRFU. Why are its finances in chaos?

https://thecurrency.news/articles/11052 ... -in-chaos/

The Midas curse

The Millennium Stadium was a blessing and a curse for the WRU. They developed it at a cost of only €137 million, using lots of government funding and interest-free loans from fans. It came at the perfect time, right at the beginning of the professional era. Unlike the Scottish Rugby Union with Murrayfield stadium, the WRU wasn't saddled with heavy debts to pay for it.

Because the Millennium Stadium was such a cash cow, the WRU didn't come under any pressure to get its house in order. It could throw money at politically well-connected clubs and at the blazers. And even if the regions never took off, it didn't matter because the national team kept trucking along, drawing crowds to Cardiff.

But any company can only get by on its past investments for so long. The pro game in Wales has been chronically underfunded for decades now, and it's starting to show in the national team. Wales is currently ranked ninth in the world, and there's no sign of things turning around. And attendances have been falling in the Millennium Stadium.

Irish readers will find it hard not to be reminded of John Delaney's FAI. That organisation was managed in the interests of its hangers-on — the clubs, and their friends in blazers.

See above from the article

[inactionman]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

[Biffer]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Yeah, late eighties - Brian Moore, Rob Andrew, Dusty Hare. Club didn't migrate to professionalism well though.

[inactionman]

Found this on reddit

The WRU takes in as much money as the IRFU. Why are its finances in chaos?

https://thecurrency.news/articles/11052 ... -in-chaos/

Looking at the state of Welsh rugby — players threatening to strike, empty club stadiums, empty club trophy cabinets, bad losses in the six nations, disgraced officials — I’ve often wondered: where did all the money go?

What I mean is, in most countries, the sport of professional rugby is underwritten by ticket sales from six home international matches each year.

Wales is blessed with the best stadium in rugby — the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. It’s got the best atmosphere. It’s also massive, with a 74,000 capacity (compared to 52,000 for Lansdowne Road). Wales fills it six times per year.

What explains this disconnect? If the Millennium Stadium is full six times a year, why is Welsh rugby on its knees?

Different paths The big difference between Ireland and Wales is the way they manage and fund professional club rugby.

In Ireland at the beginning of the professional era, the IRFU decided its clubs were too small to be viable. So it elevated the provinces, which are wholly-owned arms of the IRFU. The IRFU funds the provinces directly, pays some players' salaries, and underwrites provinces' investments. Irish rugby has wholeheartedly bought into this setup. The fans, players and officials all have an interest in making it work.

Superficially, the WRU did something similar. It decided the old clubs were too small to be viable. It consolidated them into four regions.

The big difference is that the WRU didn't own the regions. It didn't control them, it wasn't responsible for their finances, and it didn't fund them heavily.

The Welsh regions never caught on. They weren't well enough funded to build great teams. Their teams weren't good enough to draw big crowds. In the critical early years of professionalism, when everything was up for grabs, they didn't win hearts and minds. A generation of Welsh kids didn't grow up dreaming of playing for them.

The following chart compares WRU and IRFU spending on the professional game plus spending on elite player development. Despite the WRU belatedly ramping up spending on professional rugby in last year, the proportionate gap in pro rugby funding between the two unions has grown in the last ten years.

The IRFU's spending on the pro game pays dividends in lots of ways: higher gates, more kids playing the game, more commercial revenue. One direct way it pays off is in higher competition revenue: prize money for succeeding in competitions. The Irish provinces now take in significantly more competition revenue than their Welsh counterparts.

Governance At this point it's worth talking about how the two unions are governed. In Ireland, clubs and schools nominate members to the provincial branches, and the branches nominate members of the IRFU committee.

In Wales, by contrast, the clubs feed into a regional district which — crucially — is distinct from the professional regions. The regional districts nominate members of the WRU board.

So in Ireland, the board is derived from the four provinces, which run the professional game. In Wales, the board is derived from the clubs, which are independent of the professional game.

So in Ireland, the top committee is dominated by representatives from professional clubs. In Wales, it's dominated by the amateur game.

The WRU's priorities If the WRU wasn't heavily funding professional rugby, where did it spend the money?

The WRU spends much more heavily than the IRFU on overheads. The IRFU spent €11.5 million on administration, marketing and support in 2022. Across the categories of business and administration, direct costs and hospitality costs, the WRU spent €28.6 million. On overheads and the amateur game, the WRU pent €23 million more than the IRFU last year. This is almost exactly the amount the IRFU outspent the WRU on the pro game.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualis ... n/11923704

https://public.flourish.studio/visualis ... n/12785198

It would be one thing if the WRU was a bit wasteful with its current spending. But the problems run deeper than that. Twenty years of loose spending have the WRU's balance sheet in bad shape. The WRU owes €24 million of secured bank debt. The IRFU's debt lives with the Lansdowne Road stadium, in a separate company jointly owned with the FAI.

The following chart compares the amount of equity, or net assets, held by the IRFU and WRU.

The Midas curse

The Millennium Stadium was a blessing and a curse for the WRU. They developed it at a cost of only €137 million, using lots of government funding and interest-free loans from fans. It came at the perfect time, right at the beginning of the professional era. Unlike the Scottish Rugby Union with Murrayfield stadium, the WRU wasn't saddled with heavy debts to pay for it.

Because the Millennium Stadium was such a cash cow, the WRU didn't come under any pressure to get its house in order. It could throw money at politically well-connected clubs and at the blazers. And even if the regions never took off, it didn't matter because the national team kept trucking along, drawing crowds to Cardiff.

But any company can only get by on its past investments for so long. The pro game in Wales has been chronically underfunded for decades now, and it's starting to show in the national team. Wales is currently ranked ninth in the world, and there's no sign of things turning around. And attendances have been falling in the Millennium Stadium.

Irish readers will find it hard not to be reminded of John Delaney's FAI. That organisation was managed in the interests of its hangers-on — the clubs, and their friends in blazers.

I think there's something in the way the regions were decided - the provinces in Ireland had an clear and distinct historical identity, I'm not sure either of Swansea or Neath (or, more importantly, their fans) really bought into an identity of Swansea and Neath. Or Cardiff and Pontypridd, or any other blend of teams.

A lot of the Welsh approach seems cobbled together, but - recognising the need to only have 4 or so professional teams- I'm not sure I can clearly see how else they could consolidate. The Irish Provincial teams - if I follow this correctly - already existed, and already had IRFU control. The Welsh needed to essentially push the merge of privately held ventures with no clear affinity of any given team to the merged region. It's a harder ask.

I'd think the RFU would also have struggled with this, if it needed to go to a regional model. (God knows they struggle with everything else)

[inactionman]

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Yeah, late eighties - Brian Moore, Rob Andrew, Dusty Hare. Club didn't migrate to professionalism well though.

Would that be just before the Garforth/Cockers/Rowntree front row? I'd have thought a match involving Brian Moore and Cockerill would be interesting, to put it mildly

(trying to work out the source of my Father-in-Law's ire over all things Leicester Rugby, although it's fair to say that grudges don't necessarily have to make much sense in sport)

[SaintK]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Before my time, but Birmingham & Solihull was a pretty decent club wasn't it?

Yes, but they overeached themselves during the professional era and went bust in about 2010 when playing in the Championship
Think there have been several more financial meltdowns and I think they've started yet again at the bottom of the league pyramid at level 10
A salutory lesson to all over-ambitious clubs

[tabascoboy]

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Before my time, but Birmingham & Solihull was a pretty decent club wasn't it?

Yes, but they overeached themselves during the professional era and went bust in about 2010 when playing in the Championship
Think there have been several more financial meltdowns and I think they've started yet again at the bottom of the league pyramid at level 10
A salutory lesson to all over-ambitious clubs

They were in National League 2 (South) with my local team a few years ago and then went bust (again?). And were they "Pertemps Bees" for a time?

[SaintK]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Yes they were there or thereabouts at that time. Never had the ground/stadium the others had and had some major financial difficulties they managed to survive. Don't think they've ever been out of the Championship.

[fishfoodie]

A lot of the Welsh approach seems cobbled together, but - recognising the need to only have 4 or so professional teams- I'm not sure I can clearly see how else they could consolidate. The Irish Provincial teams - if I follow this correctly - already existed, and already had IRFU control. The Welsh needed to essentially push the merge of privately held ventures with no clear affinity of any given team to the merged region. It's a harder ask.

I'd think the RFU would also have struggled with this, if it needed to go to a regional model. (God knows they struggle with everything else)

Yep, & it was always the level just below International, that all club players aspired to; hence it was Munster that beat the ABs, & not Garryowen, or Shannon, or Cork Con

[dkm57]

Really sad what's happening just now. From a neutral standpoint it's like watching with shock and horror at a trainwreck as it develops, in superslowmo.

[fishfoodie]

Really sad what's happening just now. From a neutral standpoint it's like watching with shock and horror at a trainwreck as it develops, in superslowmo.

Does anyone know what's Wales worse score in a Test Match ?

Having players attending meetings all week, instead of focusing on the match can't be helpful, even if they weren't already playing shite; so it wouldn't shock me if England put fifty points on them.

[GogLais]

Really sad what's happening just now. From a neutral standpoint it's like watching with shock and horror at a trainwreck as it develops, in superslowmo.

Does anyone know what's Wales worse score in a Test Match ?

Having players attending meetings all week, instead of focusing on the match can't be helpful, even if they weren't already playing shite; so it wouldn't shock me if England put fifty points on them.

96-13 ish against SA in the mid 90s probably.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Really sad what's happening just now. From a neutral standpoint it's like watching with shock and horror at a trainwreck as it develops, in superslowmo.

Does anyone know what's Wales worse score in a Test Match ?

Having players attending meetings all week, instead of focusing on the match can't be helpful, even if they weren't already playing shite; so it wouldn't shock me if England put fifty points on them.

Historically teams spared Gats training weeks go on to perform pretty decently

[Benny The Ball]

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Yeah, late eighties - Brian Moore, Rob Andrew, Dusty Hare. Club didn't migrate to professionalism well though.

Would that be just before the Garforth/Cockers/Rowntree front row? I'd have thought a match involving Brian Moore and Cockerill would be interesting, to put it mildly

(trying to work out the source of my Father-in-Law's ire over all things Leicester Rugby, although it's fair to say that grudges don't necessarily have to make much sense in sport)

Nicked by Dean Richards at some time ?

[pjm1]

Really sad what's happening just now. From a neutral standpoint it's like watching with shock and horror at a trainwreck as it develops, in superslowmo.

Does anyone know what's Wales worse score in a Test Match ?

Having players attending meetings all week, instead of focusing on the match can't be helpful, even if they weren't already playing shite; so it wouldn't shock me if England put fifty points on them.

Fortunately they're playing England. Who'll have their dander up after a riveting win against a malfunctioning Italy (at least in the first half). I can actually see Wales winning this even if they turn up at the last minute without a clue who is in the 23, and having been on a bender on Friday night.

[Paddington Bear]

Two most likely results Saturday are, IMHO:
1) England squeeze out a cold Wales much like we did to Italy
2) a pumped up Wales win by 8-10

[Jim Lahey]

Cocks on the blocks.

1) Will there be a resolution to the saga tomorrow?
2) If not, will the Welsh players have the bollocks to strike?

I'm going for no on both counts.

[Biffer]

Cocks on the blocks.

1) Will there be a resolution to the saga tomorrow?
2) If not, will the Welsh players have the bollocks to strike?

I'm going for no on both counts.

I’d agree with that

Edit - with the addition of Gatland being portrayed as some kind of peacemaker when in reality it’s more like emotional blackmail.

[Benny The Ball]

As a natural pessimist, I can definitely see England losing. I can see Wales being fired up rather than caught cold

[Biffer]

Really sad what's happening just now. From a neutral standpoint it's like watching with shock and horror at a trainwreck as it develops, in superslowmo.

Does anyone know what's Wales worse score in a Test Match ?

Having players attending meetings all week, instead of focusing on the match can't be helpful, even if they weren't already playing shite; so it wouldn't shock me if England put fifty points on them.

96-13 ish against SA in the mid 90s probably.

Just as well Wales don’t have any good teams in their RWC group.

[GogLais]

As a natural pessimist, I can definitely see England losing. I can see Wales being fired up rather than caught cold

Get away, the lot of you!

[pjm1]

As a natural pessimist, I can definitely see England losing. I can see Wales being fired up rather than caught cold

Yeah - what's the chance our team end up being more distracted by this than the Welsh team?! And with France & Ireland to come, this could end up being a horrible run in to the end of the 6N (following a horrible start!) Borthwick then gets the boot and the only coach available for hire is Pivac...

[spike]

It's a rugby mad region tbf and for the longest time they'd only really had Saints or Tigers as Premiership options.

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Beeston. Yes there was lots of local rivalry between Notts and Leicester sides.

[Benny The Ball]

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Beeston. Yes there was lots of local rivalry between Notts and Leicester sides.

Indeed, I played in a fair few of them

[Benny The Ball]

As a natural pessimist, I can definitely see England losing. I can see Wales being fired up rather than caught cold

Yeah - what's the chance our team end up being more distracted by this than the Welsh team?! And with France & Ireland to come, this could end up being a horrible run in to the end of the 6N (following a horrible start!) Borthwick then gets the boot and the only coach available for hire is Pivac...

. Now that’s a whole new level of pessimism

[Paddington Bear]

Cocks on the blocks.

1) Will there be a resolution to the saga tomorrow?
2) If not, will the Welsh players have the bollocks to strike?

I'm going for no on both counts.

I think the WRU will fold like a cheap suit on anything they are physically able to fold on. They can’t afford not to play Saturday and the players know that.

With that said, I doubt the players will get everything but will get enough to look churlish if they don’t play.

[inactionman]

Way before pro rugby started, when I first started following Saints in the early 1970's you also had Coventry as part of the Midlands rugby triangle.
Almost as competetive as the Glaws, Bath and Bristol triangle in the South West!

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Beeston. Yes there was lots of local rivalry between Notts and Leicester sides.

Think he only went with any regularity after they moved down south of the city, thought they left Beeston a good while ago?

He was a cricket playing forest fan so not sure where his antipathy for Leicester came from.

[spike]

Are/were Nottingham ever at the top level?

I vaguely recall a few Leicester players would go there for some experience, so maybe not - suggest they were a level down.

My late Father in Law went down to watch Nottingham at West Bridgford on a fair few occasions, he always seemed to enjoy it, but had an almost visceral dislike of Leicester. I took him to the 45-0 demolition of Leicester -their record defeat in the league - at the Rec in 2014 and made his year.

Beeston. Yes there was lots of local rivalry between Notts and Leicester sides.

Think he only went with any regularity after they moved down south of the city, thought they left Beeston a good while ago?

He was a cricket playing forest fan so not sure where his antipathy for Leicester came from.

Ha, I didn't know that, I left Nottingham in 1983, before the leagues came in.

[clydecloggie]

The Welsh cobbling together four professional sides out of nothing closely echoes the Scottish attempt at constructing a viable pro team in the Borders. The Reivers played in the early days of the Celtic league, but it soon became clear that the good people of Melrose and Galashiels had no interest whatsoever in rooting for players from the next town. Probably thanks to the Murrayfield debt, the SRU closed the team down when it had to and avoided a situation the WRU now finds itself in.

Having said that, Scotland missed the boat of professional high-performance for close to 20 years (in no small part down to the amateur blazer brigade that ran the SRU, was fiercely opposed to any form of remuneration for players including them having to pay for their own replacement jerseys, and was generally clueless about professional sports) while the Welsh had some great success in that time.

I sincerely hope Wales are not at the start of their own 20 years of misery induced by poor governance.

[Tichtheid]

The SRU spent £21M on pro rugby last year, that was over the two teams, we are good payers apparently, but Wales will be looking at at double that expenditure with the four sides, having said that, isn't there private ownership, at least in part, of three of the sides?

The SRU are competitive payers at the top end, but become less competitive the lower down the talent scale you go.

From what you've said you know pro players, are we not competitive at the lower level across the board, or just with the likes of Ireland?

[Jim Lahey]

Any taffs got an inside scoop on today's meeting?