The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

[Ovals]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.

No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.

There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.

In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.

[pjm1]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.

No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.

There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

Agreed. It seems to be an unloved position. It seems in England nowadays, People who get stuck at 12 are those who: (i) weren't fast enough to be further out in the back line; (ii) not good enough to be FH; (iii) not quite powerful enough to be moved to back row, hooker etc. I even see this sometimes locally in club rugby too (albeit that's not in England)...

[duke]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.

No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.

There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.

In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.

He's on the bench for Bath at Tigers tomorrow

[inactionman]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

Aye - he could have hands like feet and some kindly coach thought 'better stick you where that won't mater so much'. God knows, in the case of Barbeary, as I've still not seen him play live yet.

I've always thought 12 was a tricky position to fill, requiring powerful but agile running with distribution skills and having to defend quick backs and charging backrows. At least in the crappy schoolboy teams I played in, these tended to be pretty mutually exclusive skillsets - forwards were big buggers, back were speedy, 9 and 10s could pass and kick and shout at everyone.

[sockwithaticket]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing money was the cause, but lack of money now means the fix isn't to import so we're going to need to develop more 12s.

No idea why 12 seems so patchy, I think it's mostly just luck of the draw but there may have been youth or academy 12s who opted to move to 10 or 13 or even into back row, given perceived paucity there.

There is a part of me that thinks we haven't made enough of home-grown 12s - Devoto and Eastmond at Bath both ultimately tripped each other up career-wise, and I still can't fathom how 12T couldn't establish himself as an England regular given his talent. We've had quite a few imports in the England team itself - Hape, Te'o - which haven't been ideal (although I'll admit I can't recall if they were inside or outside centres, I tend to try to blank out that era)

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.

In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.

Sorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.

Ben EARL

Keith EARLS

Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.

[Raggs]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

Aye - he could have hands like feet and some kindly coach thought 'better stick you where that won't mater so much'. God knows, in the case of Barbeary, as I've still not seen him play live yet.

I've always thought 12 was a tricky position to fill, requiring powerful but agile running with distribution skills and having to defend quick backs and charging backrows. At least in the crappy schoolboy teams I played in, these tended to be pretty mutually exclusive skillsets - forwards were big buggers, back were speedy, 9 and 10s could pass and kick and shout at everyone.

He was started in the forwards, front row I believe, dominated it, so a forward thinking coach put him in the backrow to develop more running skills, then same reason to move him to twelve to work on his hands and kicking (he's not bad at kicking), but at school he still threw into the lineout to keep that skill up. I suspect it was always viewed as upskilling a forward, than expecting him to have the pace to really become a high level 12.

[Kawazaki]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

Maybe if I spend a few weeks on research so I can find another 20 examples for you. Don't you worry.

[Ovals]

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.

In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.

Sorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.

Ben EARL

Keith EARLS

Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.

You need to get out more.

[Brazil]

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.

In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.

Sorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.

Ben EARL

Keith EARLS

Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "S" it's the Book of Revelation
As Revealed to St John the Divine.
See also Mary Hopkin - She must despair!
But you've got a shit arm and that's a bad tattoo

Half Man Half Biscuit - Shit Arm, Bad Tattoo

[JM2K6]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

Maybe if I spend a few weeks on research so I can find another 20 examples for you. Don't you worry.

I'm not going to discourage you from doing some research, that sounds very useful. I just am aware that you get a bee in your bonnet over things like this based on very little information (see also Ayoola Erinle, or "Cadan Murley should've been forced to play scrumhalf") and some perceived lack of personnel in certain positions at the top level of the game. The fact is, there's hundreds of kids at that age playing in every position, and making these decisions based on what we see as the failings of the top level is madness. Making these decisions off the back of a highlight reel is even sillier. It's not immediately obvious that Barbeary should've been playing 12. Especially as he apparently [according to Raggs, who probably knows this better than the rest of us ] only briefly played 12 as a way to improve his skills, making the entire whinge not only silly but based on a falsehood.

Could Ben Earl have been a good 12? Yeah, probably! He's an absolutely fantastic back row, though, and in fairness I don't think I've seen much in the way of a passing game from him. Could Sam Simmonds have been a good 12? Maybe! Would he be as good as being the European Player of the Year as an 8? Probably not!

[JM2K6]

I don't think it's 'luck of the draw', that might explain one or two seasons but this is endemic, chronic. I remember reading that Barbeary was an inside centre up to the age of 16 - there are YT vids of him running through everyone at age grade rugby playing there. A coach watched that and thought, 'you know what we'll do, we'll move that big lad into the front row'. It's criminal.

It's a good theory - big lads getting pigeon holed as Forwards. Guys like Earls and Simmonds could well have made good centres. Its probably a combination of factors of which that could be one.

In better news, Barbeary is now back in training and expected to be in action this month. Might be too late for him to push for an England WC place, given the competition for Backrow places.

Sorry, it's a little thing, but it's driving me nuts.

Ben EARL

Keith EARLS

Same thing happens with Dan Cole, people are always tossing an 's' onto his name, making me think we've suddenly started talking about Kiwi hooker Dane Coles.

Ironically, Dane Coles would've made an excellent 12

[shaggy]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

[Kawazaki]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

Maybe if I spend a few weeks on research so I can find another 20 examples for you. Don't you worry.

I'm not going to discourage you from doing some research, that sounds very useful. I just am aware that you get a bee in your bonnet over things like this based on very little information (see also Ayoola Erinle, or "Cadan Murley should've been forced to play scrumhalf") and some perceived lack of personnel in certain positions at the top level of the game. The fact is, there's hundreds of kids at that age playing in every position, and making these decisions based on what we see as the failings of the top level is madness. Making these decisions off the back of a highlight reel is even sillier. It's not immediately obvious that Barbeary should've been playing 12. Especially as he apparently [according to Raggs, who probably knows this better than the rest of us ] only briefly played 12 as a way to improve his skills, making the entire whinge not only silly but based on a falsehood.

Could Ben Earl have been a good 12? Yeah, probably! He's an absolutely fantastic back row, though, and in fairness I don't think I've seen much in the way of a passing game from him. Could Sam Simmonds have been a good 12? Maybe! Would he be as good as being the European Player of the Year as an 8? Probably not!

Hyperbole - it's just hyperbole.

I do think many players (like Murley) are missing a trick when they are coming through as young players though. There has been a gaping hole at 12 in the English developmental pipelines for years, decades. In fact, since Will Carling made his debut in 1988 - 35 years ago - you could make a case for saying that Greenwood is the only other English-born 12 that has truly been a top player in that position. If you are an ambitious fast, powerful English three-quarter then ask to play inside centre!

[Raggs]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

[Kawazaki]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Not really. An inside-centre really doesn't need to know how to win a tail ball in a lineout.

[Joost]

You can tell what a developmental issue it’s been since Greenwood by the number of poaches, league converts (and poached league converts) who’ve played there, without much success:

Henry Paul
Shontayne Hape
Sam Burgess
Farrell Snr
Joel Tompkins
Kyle Eastmond
Brad Barritt
Riki Flutey (probably the best ball-playing 12 we’ve had since Greenwood )

Think we could get a lot better at shifting sizeable wannabe 10s there and making the most of their skill set - we should have done a lot better with 12T and surely could’ve done more to keep guys like Cameron Redpath and (left field) Josh Matevesi

[Tichtheid]

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Not really. An inside-centre really doesn't need to know how to win a tail ball in a lineout.

Glasgow have successfully deployed Stafford McDowall in the lineout in recent weeks - he's taken a lot of 5m ball which has resulted in tries for the hooker - though to be fair he's an outside centre and he's taken the ball jumping at 2.


I'm flitting between Glasgow and Brizzle, Bristol are hitting their straps, at last.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'm flitting between Glasgow and Brizzle, Bristol are hitting their straps, at last.

Stains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!

[Oxbow]

I'm flitting between Glasgow and Brizzle, Bristol are hitting their straps, at last.

Stains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!

Turned it off a long time ago, it was obvious early on that Bad Saints had turned up.

[SaintK]

I'm flitting between Glasgow and Brizzle, Bristol are hitting their straps, at last.

Stains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!

Turned it off a long time ago, it was obvious early on that Bad Saints had turned up.

Coward
I made it to the end

[Oxbow]

Stains flitting between a facsimile of a rugby side and mannequins!

Turned it off a long time ago, it was obvious early on that Bad Saints had turned up.

Coward
I made it to the end

You're a better man than I am. Just saw that Saints have shipped over 500 points this season. Think it's fair to say defence is not a strong point.

[shaggy]

Far be it for me to disagree with someone who knows Barbeary's development so well, but perhaps the Youtube highlights of some schoolboy runs aren't enough of a counter-argument to whatever the coaches saw in real life over a period of time and not for 3 minutes and 37 seconds in 1080p

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Yes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.

[JM2K6]

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Yes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.

Is he quick enough?

[Raggs]

It will, and is, continuing to happen. Colleague’s son is a beast of a 12, 14 years old just joined a prem academy. He is 6’4” and 17.5 stone and is playing 2 years up. Just been moved to No.8.

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Yes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.

At 14 and that size he'd obviously be a beast, how's his vision in attack, how's his tactical kicking game? How fast is he turning? How big are his parents?

EDIT - JMK at 14 and that size he's probably one of the quicker ones on the pitch, but his speed now is probably a long way from reflective of what it'll be as an adult (unless he's already putting in quick adult times, which he may be).

Further edit, all the way up, in theory he's only been playing positions for max a couple of seasons.

[Kawazaki]

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Yes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.

At 14 and that size he'd obviously be a beast, how's his vision in attack, how's his tactical kicking game? How fast is he turning? How big are his parents?

EDIT - JMK at 14 and that size he's probably one of the quicker ones on the pitch, but his speed now is probably a long way from reflective of what it'll be as an adult (unless he's already putting in quick adult times, which he may be).

Further edit, all the way up, in theory he's only been playing positions for max a couple of seasons.

I bet you sound exactly like the coaches on the pathways.

[shaggy]

Has he always played in the backs? If so, getting involved in the forwards is a good chance to develop skills in the same way that moving Barbeary to 12 did.

Yes, an IC all way up. Real shame, he is a beast who loves both the defense and attack.

At 14 and that size he'd obviously be a beast, how's his vision in attack, how's his tactical kicking game? How fast is he turning? How big are his parents?

EDIT - JMK at 14 and that size he's probably one of the quicker ones on the pitch, but his speed now is probably a long way from reflective of what it'll be as an adult (unless he's already putting in quick adult times, which he may be).

Further edit, all the way up, in theory he's only been playing positions for max a couple of seasons.

Not seen him play but from what I hear he has speed. His dad is lock material, his grandfather even taller so maybe it is the right thing to do when you look at his genes!

[Margin__Walker]

I tend to think that for the most part the pathway coaches know what they were doing.

Barbeary played centre as a schoolboy. Cool, but I remember him playing Under 18 for England and he was genuinely the best player on the pitch as a forward.

England age grade teams over the past decade have had players looking genuinely promising at 12. Johnny Williams, Ojomoh, Redpath, Butler, Cokanasiga off the top of my head. None of them were really squad filler in those teams, they were players people talked of with potential. For whatever reason none of them kicked on (for England at least). You go through fallow periods in positions (like at 9 too). It happens, and I really don't think it's because pathway coaches are mindlessly funnelling talent into the pack.

[sockwithaticket]

Achtung, Kawazaki. In case you don't feel sufficiently riled at the moment Spencer has just absolutely done Youngs to score in the Bath - Tigers game.

[Paddington Bear]

Any danger of Bath making a game of this?

[Paddington Bear]

Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement

[sockwithaticket]

Barbeary looking badly injured about 9 minutes into his comeback

Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement

It should be imposed on him really. The choice to retire was 2 or 3 concussions ago.

[sockwithaticket]

Will Stuart kneed in the head by his own fullback, not going to do England's tighthead depth any favours.

[Paddington Bear]

Barbeary looking badly injured about 9 minutes into his comeback

Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement

It should be imposed on him really. The choice to retire was 2 or 3 concussions ago.

Yeah I think that’s fair. Tragic on both a human basis and from a rugby one - the man was on a path to finishing his career rivalling Hill/Back/Lol in an England shirt IMO

[Paddington Bear]

Obviously its Dickson but the maul on the ground rule is just comic. The ball is clearly available, and a Leicester player is allowed to manoeuvre himself over the ball to win a scrum

[sockwithaticket]

Barbeary looking badly injured about 9 minutes into his comeback

Underhill appears to have been sparked out again. A man who really ought to be considering retirement

It should be imposed on him really. The choice to retire was 2 or 3 concussions ago.

Yeah I think that’s fair. Tragic on both a human basis and from a rugby one - the man was on a path to finishing his career rivalling Hill/Back/Lol in an England shirt IMO

His highlight moments definitely pointed towards that sort of ceiling, just doesn't have the body for it. When it's not concussion it's some other physical ailment.

If the call is made he can join Will Fraser, Jack Clifford and Tom Rees on the 'promising young 7s with careers cut unfairly short through injury' bench.

[sockwithaticket]

You'd think Tigers are home and hosed now.

Shame they took Montoya off, it would've been funny to see him complete an abnormal hooker hattrick by running in a third try out wide.

[sockwithaticket]

Dallaglio really needs to be put out to pasture as a commentator.

[Paddington Bear]

That’s an absolutely outrageous try

[sockwithaticket]

Hint of the forward about Care's offload, but you've gotta let stuff like that stand. Chief's being blitzed so far.