The Official English Rugby Thread

[Ovals]

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

I hope the RFU start playing hardball with PRL for the next Agreement which is due in 2024. If PRL want to keep the ban on foreign based players, they need to give the England manager free rein on who is picked for ENgland squads.

[Ovals]

I'm still finding it very odd how comprehensively our Forwards were beaten up. They looked leaden footed and there seemed to be a total lack of energy.

The French side didn't manshame the Italians or the Scots up front - both sides that we, at least, matched for physicality in the forwards. In fact it was our forwards that did the business against Italy.

There's just something that doesn't entirely add up - especially after a fallow week which should have seen our players at their freshest..............

[sockwithaticket]

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

I really, really want to see if he can make the step up (ideally in a white shirt, the Scots are sniffing around...). Like you say, he's a great defender, especially for his size, but he also runs great lines and has good hands. Seems at home in either centre position too.

[sockwithaticket]

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

I hope the RFU start playing hardball with PRL for the next Agreement which is due in 2024. If PRL want to keep the ban on foreign based players, they need to give the England manager free rein on who is picked for ENgland squads.

Tbh I suspect that this has more to do with who Borthwick perceives to be the better player for what he wants to do rather than any restrictions around how many players can be picked for the squad. So far Dingwall's been sent back to Saints every week, which suggested there wasn't much interest in using him this tournament even before bringing Porter in instead.

[Paddington Bear]

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday
2) Sarries did exactly the same vs Edinburgh pre-Christmas, and him and Ritchie ended up losing their heads. So we know English players can do it.

Likewise have written off the French game but we could and absolutely should have beaten Scotland, given the position we got ourselves into.

I'm still finding it very odd how comprehensively our Forwards were beaten up. They looked leaden footed and there seemed to be a total lack of energy.

The French side didn't manshame the Italians or the Scots up front - both sides that we, at least, matched for physicality in the forwards. In fact it was our forwards that did the business against Italy.

There's just something that doesn't entirely add up - especially after a fallow week which should have seen our players at their freshest..............

It's a sickener isn't it. For all the 'its the whole system' stuff, Jack Willis plays with the majority of their team each week and was made to look appalling and well off the pace. Ludlam has been excellent against everyone else. Dombrandt probably has been found out but he is by no means normally done quite like that. Our scrum did pretty well also, so something very strange happened, this can't all just be put down to fitness/physicality. Maybe it is as simple as being punched in the face in the first minute or so and just reeling from there. Chasing the game from minute one only exacerbated it, and given France played with quick ball it was our guys who ended up shattered as well as shocked.

[Tichtheid]

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

[Ovals]

Just noticed that Dingwall, freshly minted Prem player of the month, has been ditched. Presumably in favour of the just back from injury Porter, which is a depressing window into selection philosophy.

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday
2) Sarries did exactly the same vs Edinburgh pre-Christmas, and him and Ritchie ended up losing their heads. So we know English players can do it.

Likewise have written off the French game but we could and absolutely should have beaten Scotland, given the position we got ourselves into.

I'm still finding it very odd how comprehensively our Forwards were beaten up. They looked leaden footed and there seemed to be a total lack of energy.

The French side didn't manshame the Italians or the Scots up front - both sides that we, at least, matched for physicality in the forwards. In fact it was our forwards that did the business against Italy.

There's just something that doesn't entirely add up - especially after a fallow week which should have seen our players at their freshest..............

It's a sickener isn't it. For all the 'its the whole system' stuff, Jack Willis plays with the majority of their team each week and was made to look appalling and well off the pace. Ludlam has been excellent against everyone else. Dombrandt probably has been found out but he is by no means normally done quite like that. Our scrum did pretty well also, so something very strange happened, this can't all just be put down to fitness/physicality. Maybe it is as simple as being punched in the face in the first minute or so and just reeling from there. Chasing the game from minute one only exacerbated it, and given France played with quick ball it was our guys who ended up shattered as well as shocked.

Thing is - they're still. very largely, our best players - so I don't want, or expect, there to be many changes. What I want to see is those players coming out against Ireland with a real fire in the bellies. Yes, we're all but sure to lose, but they should be smashing everything in sight, making an absolute nuisance of themselves and putting up a huge fight.

[Paddington Bear]

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

These stats are IMO a little deceiving, in the same way Steward racks up tonnes of metres from full back. Yesterday VdM was used a lot but barely made a dent in Ireland's defence and was corralled well. Wings are better judged on impact than pure stats for me.

Doesn't change he sliced through us like a knife through butter (how many of those defenders beaten are English!) and his second finish was top drawer, it just pisses me off it happened against us when others are dealing with him a lot better and I saw an English side handle him well in person earlier this year.

[pjm1]

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

I agree with your final line. He's clearly an excellent club player, who can play a particular style of rugby very, very well.

The first line is a demonstration of the danger of stats... frequently don't tell the whole story. I don't know anyone who thought VDM had one of his better games and all of Scotland's back three were, for me, comprehensively outplayed by their Irish counterparts. VDM's poor effort to jump for a high ball near the end was nearly worthy of a place in our team.

To go back to the original point: there is something very wrong with our rugby at the moment. The France game, the points left on the board against Wales, the capitulation against Scotland (including VDM's solo effort) all adds up to an utter bag of shite. Looking more widely at the game in England, there is far too much fundamentally broken across the game for it to be a coincidence. We need a hard reset across the professional game in England.

[Paddington Bear]

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday
2) Sarries did exactly the same vs Edinburgh pre-Christmas, and him and Ritchie ended up losing their heads. So we know English players can do it.

Likewise have written off the French game but we could and absolutely should have beaten Scotland, given the position we got ourselves into.

I'm still finding it very odd how comprehensively our Forwards were beaten up. They looked leaden footed and there seemed to be a total lack of energy.

The French side didn't manshame the Italians or the Scots up front - both sides that we, at least, matched for physicality in the forwards. In fact it was our forwards that did the business against Italy.

There's just something that doesn't entirely add up - especially after a fallow week which should have seen our players at their freshest..............

It's a sickener isn't it. For all the 'its the whole system' stuff, Jack Willis plays with the majority of their team each week and was made to look appalling and well off the pace. Ludlam has been excellent against everyone else. Dombrandt probably has been found out but he is by no means normally done quite like that. Our scrum did pretty well also, so something very strange happened, this can't all just be put down to fitness/physicality. Maybe it is as simple as being punched in the face in the first minute or so and just reeling from there. Chasing the game from minute one only exacerbated it, and given France played with quick ball it was our guys who ended up shattered as well as shocked.

Thing is - they're still. very largely, our best players - so I don't want, or expect, there to be many changes. What I want to see is those players coming out against Ireland with a real fire in the bellies. Yes, we're all but sure to lose, but they should be smashing everything in sight, making an absolute nuisance of themselves and putting up a huge fight.

Definitely. One thing I'd be tempted to do this week is get someone into camp who was on the tour of hell. I'm thinking Josh Lewsey, Wilko is the obvious shout but christ knows what he's rambling on about half the time. If we can use it as a character building day then there's some positives to take going forward.

[Tichtheid]

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

These stats are IMO a little deceiving, in the same way Steward racks up tonnes of metres from full back. Yesterday VdM was used a lot but barely made a dent in Ireland's defence and was corralled well. Wings are better judged on impact than pure stats for me.

Doesn't change he sliced through us like a knife through butter (how many of those defenders beaten are English!) and his second finish was top drawer, it just pisses me off it happened against us when others are dealing with him a lot better and I saw an English side handle him well in person earlier this year.

I'll just get this in before the thread police arrive, he's only played 26 times for Scotland and three tests for the Lions, you have to have 30 caps to make the list of top test scorers, but at the moment he is on the same strike rate as Lomu, ahead of both Underwood and Habana.

I'm not for a minute suggesting he's in that league, but he is no bog standard club player. The Irish defence is terrific, they've conceded 5 tries in four games, the next best is France on 10 in four games. It was a fabulous tackle from Keenan that denied vdM yesterday.

It upsets some people to talk on specific team threads, so I'll happily carry this on elsewhere if you like.

[Kawazaki]

I'm still finding it very odd how comprehensively our Forwards were beaten up. They looked leaden footed and there seemed to be a total lack of energy.

The French side didn't manshame the Italians or the Scots up front - both sides that we, at least, matched for physicality in the forwards. In fact it was our forwards that did the business against Italy.

There's just something that doesn't entirely add up - especially after a fallow week which should have seen our players at their freshest..............

Unless they've been flogged.

[Paddington Bear]

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

These stats are IMO a little deceiving, in the same way Steward racks up tonnes of metres from full back. Yesterday VdM was used a lot but barely made a dent in Ireland's defence and was corralled well. Wings are better judged on impact than pure stats for me.

Doesn't change he sliced through us like a knife through butter (how many of those defenders beaten are English!) and his second finish was top drawer, it just pisses me off it happened against us when others are dealing with him a lot better and I saw an English side handle him well in person earlier this year.

I'll just get this in before the thread police arrive, he's only played 26 times for Scotland and three tests for the Lions, you have to have 30 caps to make the list of top test scorers, but at the moment he is on the same strike rate as Lomu, ahead of both Underwood and Habana.

I'm not for a minute suggesting he's in that league, but he is no bog standard club player. The Irish defence is terrific, they've conceded 5 tries in four games, the next best is France on 10 in four games. It was a fabulous tackle from Keenan that denied vdM yesterday.

It upsets some people to talk on specific team threads, so I'll happily carry this on elsewhere if you like.

No need to worry about thread police at all.

VdM has a particular skill set in that he is freakishly strong for the pace he possesses. That makes him a very useful finisher and when he gets up a head of steam, well I'd rather you than me. We saw this at Twickenham where once from long distance he became very hard to stop after some poor initial defence, and later when he burrowed his way to the line to cap off what is a contender for try of the tournament. However, his wider skill set is limited and it is very possible to shut him down. Ireland did it, as you say they are as good as it gets in defence. But my point is I've seen Saracens do it, and half a dozen other club sides besides.

What I'm really getting at is that he is a one trick pony. A good trick but international defences ought to be able to deal with him and I'm very frustrated we couldn't. Similar principle as Jonny May. May had a period where he was looking freakishly quick with an eye for a moving ball and scored an absolute bucketful of tries, but counter that and you're left with a dumb rugby player and an average skill set, which is why he's doing OK for Gloucester two and a bit years on from his peak.

[SaintK]

I'm still finding it very odd how comprehensively our Forwards were beaten up. They looked leaden footed and there seemed to be a total lack of energy.

The French side didn't manshame the Italians or the Scots up front - both sides that we, at least, matched for physicality in the forwards. In fact it was our forwards that did the business against Italy.

There's just something that doesn't entirely add up - especially after a fallow week which should have seen our players at their freshest..............

Unless they've been flogged.

I was thinking that. The lack of energy from the first whistle was evident.

[inactionman]

Dingwall is deceptively strong, he doesn't look massive but I've seen him put in a good number of reducers. Not that I'd advocate a meathead but a good physical defence would be a decent thing for England to have, going on last few showings.

I've already written off the French game as a bad memory but I'm still wincing over the van der Merwe try, he's a powerful lad but he's not exactly ickle-levels of agility and no-one laid a glove.

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

I've seen him for Edinburgh and he's a fine player, but he's not particularity elusive and he should not be running past a host of players who flap arms at him.

[redderneck]

He'd be far more concerning an opponent if he were a better footballer. His defence doubles down on that failing.

[Ovals]

What has really fucked me off is:
1) Other teams have coped with him fine. Ireland made him look like a bog standard club player yesterday

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

I've seen him for Edinburgh and he's a fine player, but he's not particularity elusive and he should not be running past a host of players who flap arms at him.

I thought he proved quite a handful for the Irish defence - he and Jones were by far the biggest threats they possessed. He also seems to go looking for work and get involved more than most wingers.

[inactionman]

van der Merwe had the highest "defenders beaten" total yesterday, six. Lowe was next on three. He made 100m from ten carries (Lowe made 150m from ten)

van der Merwe also leads the totals in defenders beaten over the tournament so far, 27. Penaud is in second place on 23.

To describe him as a bog standard club player is, I think, a mistake

I've seen him for Edinburgh and he's a fine player, but he's not particularity elusive and he should not be running past a host of players who flap arms at him.

I thought he proved quite a handful for the Irish defence - he and Jones were by far the biggest threats they possessed. He also seems to go looking for work and get involved more than most wingers.

He's a powerful lad and he's a handful, but principally in terms of gainline successes or dominant collisions or whatever the phrase de jour is. We didn't even manage a collision.

I think he's a really good foil at club and international for (the sadly injured) Darcy Graham, VDM a very balanced runner with decent pace, especially for his size and strength, and picks decent lines but it's Graham who is the one you'd expect to jink past defences. It still felt like Matt Banahan running it in from halfway.

[Kawazaki]

Here's your players, pick your England XV to play Ireland...

[PCPhil]

Here's your players, pick your England XV to play Ireland...

Hang on. I’m printing it and seeing if I can find my old darts set.
On 6N form who would get in the Oirish team?

[inactionman]

Here's your players, pick your England XV to play Ireland...

Whose name is that I spy, at the very end of the list?

[sockwithaticket]

Here's your players, pick your England XV to play Ireland...

Whose name is that I spy, at the very end of the list?

Tbf this is the wider squad and Youngs has been excluded every time it's been trimmed down so far, same as the likes of Rodd and Murley.

[ASMO]

On a somewhat different note, really excellent interview with Tom youngs

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/64944364

[Hal Jordan]

Here's your players, pick your England XV to play Ireland...

Can I pick all 36 at once to give us a chance?

[Oxbow]

Here's your players, pick your England XV to play Ireland...

Can I pick all 36 at once to give us a chance?

Youngs would still manage to pass straight into touch.

[Paddington Bear]

I hope I’m wrong but I feel a Youngs recall in my waters…

[sockwithaticket]

I hope I’m wrong but I feel a Youngs recall in my waters…

He did score a try at the weekend...

[sockwithaticket]

Jack Willis has apparently signed a season extension with Toulouse with an option for another after that.

Obviously would love for him to come back to the Prem, but after the experience he's just had with Wasps, not to mention his two serious, long term injuries, it's hard to begrudge him the wages and stability of a Top14 powerhouse team.

In other random news apparently there are rumours that Dave Walder has left Newcastle with immediate effect. Odd time of the season for a head coach to go.

[Margin__Walker]

Jack Willis has apparently signed a season extension with Toulouse with an option for another after that.

Obviously would love for him to come back to the Prem, but after the experience he's just had with Wasps, not to mention his two serious, long term injuries, it's hard to begrudge him the wages and stability of a Top14 powerhouse team.

In other random news apparently there are rumours that Dave Walder has left Newcastle with immediate effect. Odd time of the season for a head coach to go.

That's a Jake exclusive and seems to be on the money, although not announced.

Davison also left for Saints with immediate effect today with Heffernan coming in on loan. Tough spot for Newcastle as they are struggling on the pitch and seem to be cutting costs at the same time (likes of McGuigan also leaving mid season). Will take some clever recruitment and coaching for them to compete next season.

[Oxbow]

Davison is a direct replacement for Ehren Painter, who's gone to Exeter. Had big hopes for Painter, huge lump who's very good in the scrum, but he never really pushed on elsewhere. Exeter could have got themselves a very good player if they can improve other aspects of his game.

[sockwithaticket]

Jack Willis has apparently signed a season extension with Toulouse with an option for another after that.

Obviously would love for him to come back to the Prem, but after the experience he's just had with Wasps, not to mention his two serious, long term injuries, it's hard to begrudge him the wages and stability of a Top14 powerhouse team.

In other random news apparently there are rumours that Dave Walder has left Newcastle with immediate effect. Odd time of the season for a head coach to go.

That's a Jake exclusive and seems to be on the money, although not announced.

Davison also left for Saints with immediate effect today with Heffernan coming in on loan. Tough spot for Newcastle as they are struggling on the pitch and seem to be cutting costs at the same time (likes of McGuigan also leaving mid season). Will take some clever recruitment and coaching for them to compete next season.

People in the game always say Falcons already spend significantly under the cap. Whoever they can get to replace Walder has a hell of a job on their hands if the expectation is to keep them a Premiership outfit if there's even less money to put towards players and some of the best ones are already being offloaded. Carreras still needs a semblance of a team around him to keep scoring tries.

[sockwithaticket]

Davison is a direct replacement for Ehren Painter, who's gone to Exeter. Had big hopes for Painter, huge lump who's very good in the scrum, but he never really pushed on elsewhere. Exeter could have got themselves a very good player if they can improve other aspects of his game.

Certainly with the way things are currently, Saints have the better end of that.

[Margin__Walker]

People in the game always say Falcons already spend significantly under the cap. Whoever they can get to replace Walder has a hell of a job on their hands if the expectation is to keep them a Premiership outfit if there's even less money to put towards players and some of the best ones are already being offloaded. Carreras still needs a semblance of a team around him to keep scoring tries.

Yeah, they make no secret of the fact that they try to be sensible with expenditure and operate below the cap. Absolutely makes sense, but you don't start a season and offload several first choice players during it, if you can help it. Hopefully they find a way to stabilise things.

[SaintK]

Davison is a direct replacement for Ehren Painter, who's gone to Exeter. Had big hopes for Painter, huge lump who's very good in the scrum, but he never really pushed on elsewhere. Exeter could have got themselves a very good player if they can improve other aspects of his game.

Shame as he is a big old unit though never looked very conditioned!

[JM2K6]

Exeter love a fat fuck of a tighthead.

[Joost]

Exeter love a fat fuck of a tighthead.

Wonder which sh!t Exeter forwards haircut he’ll end up with!

[Joost]

England squad cut to 30, at least Youngs isn’t there!

[SaintK]

England squad cut to 30, at least Youngs isn’t there!

Chessum our injured George Martin called up

[Slick]

I’ve seen a few people picking Chessum at 6 for this weekend, does he play there much?

[Ovals]

I’ve seen a few people picking Chessum at 6 for this weekend, does he play there much?

He's gone - injured in Training !!