World Rugby - We will upend the entire sport to prevent South Africa joining the 6Ns

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_Os_
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Dan54 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:49 pm There's no reason to force anyone into RC Os, the 6Ns and RC don't count towards qualifying as far as I can see, will just be the NH teams touring that will be where quaiifying is done. Don't know if I like it or not yet as haven't thought heavily on it.
The last time this came up in about 2021 there was a lot of talk of Japan joining the RC for the 2024 season. I'm very suspicious.

If the aim was to eventually including the 6N and RC into this forever tournament, then you wouldn't want the 6N format to change (tick that box), you would want the RC format to change. You would also want two pools of 6, I'm sure there were other formats that could've included more sides. There's no reason to maybe start promotion/relegation in 2030 unless you wanted Japan and Fiji to become regular test fixtures and get a free lunch like Italy.

I would have to Google those 2021-ish stories and reread it all. But if I had to guess SANZAAR is under pressure to include Tier 2 sides, in a way the 6N isn't/cannot. This is the outcome. The pressure is going to remain on the RC becoming something worse, which would be fine if SANZAAR countries were rolling in cash but err ...
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Guy Smiley
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There's a story reproduced from the SMH in Stuff today suggesting a change to the timing of the RC

link here

brought forward by SA and Argentina because their players are now all playing up north and can't always be available for SH duties....
Informed sources say the talks have stemmed from South Africa and Argentina rugby union chiefs approaching their Sanzaar partners – Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby – last year to ask for a major rethink of the Rugby Championship schedule, due to their players being unable to take a lengthy break in the year.

South Africa and Argentina teams were cut from Super Rugby during Covid-19, and five South African sides joined the Celtic-based United Rugby Championship. A majority of Springboks and Pumas players now play in European competitions.
this also has the 'bonus' of aligning more with the NH season, but...
However, swapping the Rugby Championship and Super Rugby order would likely be as divisive as it is radical.

It would require Australia and New Zealand to effectively agree to play tests cold, after a three-month break, against match-fit South Africans and Argentinians. Marketing and selling tickets to Test matches, at a time when most club rugby hasn’t started, would also be a big challenge.

It means Australian club competitions would rarely see Super Rugby players. New Zealand Rugby is also highly protective of the National Provincial Championship, which runs from August to October.
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OomStruisbaai
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Will be much easier if the Springboks join the 6 Nations.
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laurent
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No safa In 6 nations they can bugger of the hcup too.

And no silly world league as well

Tours are just fine as long as second tier get a better look in.
Biffer
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World rugby just don’t learn from the shitshow of southern hemisphere rugby do they? Australia and New Zealand have devalued their own product by playing each other three or sometimes for times a year, and now they want everyone else to do it too.

Yay, SH teams keep fucking everything up, let’s let them fuck NH rugby too. Arseholes.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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JM2K6
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OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:56 am Will be much easier if the Springboks join the 6 Nations.
Must hurt so much to see the lengths everyone else will go to just to keep you cunts out
Biffer
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JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 am
OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:56 am Will be much easier if the Springboks join the 6 Nations.
Must hurt so much to see the lengths everyone else will go to just to keep you cunts out
I have an objection to the title of the thread. More accurately it would be called ‘World Rugby tries to prevent South Africa from fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe’.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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OomStruisbaai
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Biffer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:24 am
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 am
OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:56 am Will be much easier if the Springboks join the 6 Nations.
Must hurt so much to see the lengths everyone else will go to just to keep you cunts out
I have an objection to the title of the thread. More accurately it would be called ‘World Rugby tries to prevent South Africa from fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe’.
Scotland will be fucked without their Saffers
Slick
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OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:49 am
Biffer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:24 am
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 am

Must hurt so much to see the lengths everyone else will go to just to keep you cunts out
I have an objection to the title of the thread. More accurately it would be called ‘World Rugby tries to prevent South Africa from fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe’.
Scotland will be fucked without their Saffers
They all seem like good lads, not real Saffers
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Yr Alban
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PornDog wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 am
Northern hemisphere sides will play three southern opponents away from home in the July window, bringing to an end the traditional summer tours of two or three Tests against one host country.
Image
Typical. Scotland got ourselves back to a standard where NZ saw us as credible opposition - first Covid ruined our first away game there in decades, and now they’re getting rid of tours altogether. Shiny.
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Yr Alban
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OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:49 am
Biffer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:24 am
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 am

Must hurt so much to see the lengths everyone else will go to just to keep you cunts out
I have an objection to the title of the thread. More accurately it would be called ‘World Rugby tries to prevent South Africa from fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe’.
Scotland will be fucked without their Saffers
Our Saffers are Scots now :D
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
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OomStruisbaai
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Yr Alban wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:10 am
OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:49 am
Biffer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:24 am

I have an objection to the title of the thread. More accurately it would be called ‘World Rugby tries to prevent South Africa from fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe’.
Scotland will be fucked without their Saffers
Our Saffers are Scots now :D
According to Biffer South Africa fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe. The irony of being a Scotsman. He should thank South Africa for giving them world class players.
Big D
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What would happen if say the half the teams told World Rugby to fuck off?
Rhubarb & Custard
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Big D wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:22 pm What would happen if say the half the teams told World Rugby to fuck off?
Half of which teams?

The proposal stands starkly against the future interests of tier 2 and tier 3 nations, if 100% of them told the IRB to do one it'd likely make no difference. If we're just talking about tier 1, and that's often the case, then who are the key stakeholders?
_Os_
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Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:31 am There's a story reproduced from the SMH in Stuff today suggesting a change to the timing of the RC

link here

brought forward by SA and Argentina because their players are now all playing up north and can't always be available for SH duties....
Informed sources say the talks have stemmed from South Africa and Argentina rugby union chiefs approaching their Sanzaar partners – Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby – last year to ask for a major rethink of the Rugby Championship schedule, due to their players being unable to take a lengthy break in the year.

South Africa and Argentina teams were cut from Super Rugby during Covid-19, and five South African sides joined the Celtic-based United Rugby Championship. A majority of Springboks and Pumas players now play in European competitions.
this also has the 'bonus' of aligning more with the NH season, but...
However, swapping the Rugby Championship and Super Rugby order would likely be as divisive as it is radical.

It would require Australia and New Zealand to effectively agree to play tests cold, after a three-month break, against match-fit South Africans and Argentinians. Marketing and selling tickets to Test matches, at a time when most club rugby hasn’t started, would also be a big challenge.

It means Australian club competitions would rarely see Super Rugby players. New Zealand Rugby is also highly protective of the National Provincial Championship, which runs from August to October.
The Argies have a serious issue since losing Super Rugby and now have no high standard domestic tier below test rugby. SA can use URC players (which SA has control over and can rest during the URC) more through the RC in its current window, and select Europe based players more through November when they'll be playing if the Boks don't select them anyway. In the RC last year usually half the Bok 23 were based in Europe or Japan. If needed SA can make any window work.

I would be weary about making any changes to the RC, it's what pays the bills. The main issue is that the Argies have no level below test rugby that can keep their players in Argentina. Super Rugby doesn't seem interested in travelling outside Australasia anymore, not enough potential provincial sides to make Europe worthwhile (they're definitely capable of 1, maybe 2), not enough commercial potential in CC/NPC participation even if they based themselves in SA/NZ.

A potential upside of a March/April/May window for the RC is it would make Pumas/Boks/Wallabies/ABs less attractive to foreign clubs, as they would miss club rugby rounds before the June playoffs/finals. That could also mean players quit test rugby though, which again may actually hurt the Pumas the most. So I'm not sure moving the window helps things.
_Os_
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Biffer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:24 am
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 am
OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:56 am Will be much easier if the Springboks join the 6 Nations.
Must hurt so much to see the lengths everyone else will go to just to keep you cunts out
I have an objection to the title of the thread. More accurately it would be called ‘World Rugby tries to prevent South Africa from fucking the entire world of rugby sideways and bankrupting unions all over the globe’.
The title is a troll by Mr.Bear.

The actual issue is World Rugby wants the sport to "grow". So where does Japan end up? Japan asked to join the RC and 6N (obviously the 6N idea immediately died and is now forgotten, but it did happen). If the RC tanks rugby will actually shrink, SANZAAR cannot run the show without money (telling that Super Rugby in its current form does not include any Japanese sides, despite the Aussies being really keen on the idea in previously, which hints at NZ calling the shots in Super Rugby now).

So where does Japan go?
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:27 pm Half of which teams?

The proposal stands starkly against the future interests of tier 2 and tier 3 nations, if 100% of them told the IRB to do one it'd likely make no difference. If we're just talking about tier 1, and that's often the case, then who are the key stakeholders?
Which shows why "growing the game" is actually nonsense. At the elite level it really means "playing the 5N/3N sides", which starts turning everything into a world cup. If including Tier 2 and 3 sides was commercially viable, they would simply have their own viable tournaments. Japan would play in an Asian tournament with Asian sides and it would be commercially viable and a decent standard. But that's not the case, World Rugby funds all the Tier 2/3 comps using RWC money, because there's very limited interest and money outside the 5N/3N. So World Rugby then tries to square the circle by pressuring the 5N/3N.

The logical endpoint for "growing the game", is a 6N for Europe with promotion and relegation and a 6 team RC for the rest of the world with promotion relegation. Which I suspect would mean World Rugby money having to support SA/NZ/Aus/Arg, fucked if I'm getting up in the middle of the night to watch USA v Japan (countries hugely richer than SA, that will have both hosted a RWC more recently than SA, where if there was any real interest they wouldn't need our help) in a non-RWC match.
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Guy Smiley
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_Os_ wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:16 pm

The actual issue is World Rugby wants the sport to "grow". So where does Japan end up? Japan asked to join the RC and 6N (obviously the 6N idea immediately died and is now forgotten, but it did happen). If the RC tanks rugby will actually shrink, SANZAAR cannot run the show without money (telling that Super Rugby in its current form does not include any Japanese sides, despite the Aussies being really keen on the idea in previously, which hints at NZ calling the shots in Super Rugby now).

So where does Japan go?
The issue with Super rugby I see is that Covid and travel restrictions rammed home the message to the unions that their globe straddling, conference embracing engineered finals model was obsolete and unworkable...

no-one kicked anyone out. While borders were closed in Australia and NZ, those two countries held their own domestic comps involving their Super rugby sides. RA even reanimated the corpse of the Force after stabbing the poor thing to death with whatever they could find for years.

The SA teams had been talking for years about going to Europe and they went.

In the aftermath, NZR and RA were left with a choice in how they rebuilt a viable comp and that has turned into an endless dickswinging exercise led by Robinson in NZ who manages to make wiping his arse look too difficult, and Maclennan in Aus who seems to belong to that cohort of Sydneysiders whose delusions of grandeur regarding their incestuous little rugby shitpile is measured by how abusive they can be towards NZ and NZers in the name of having a good time on the harbour. The fact that NZ generated a substantial broadcast rights deal on its own and RA only managed to scrape up some left over chicken feed has rankled deeply and much of the posturing out of Sydney is resentment driven.

They're both wankers and the current Super Rugby format, with a hyperbolic 'Super' super round featuring all games held in Melbourne FFS to try and present a quivering lower lip to the sporting juggernaut that is the start of the AFL and NRL seasons IN Australia is a shiny testament to the small minded battle for territorial ego strut they've got the whole shitfight locked into.

There are mutterings about Japan joining an expanded RC. There is still a possibility the club scene in Japan could be drawn into Super rugby somehow and the clubs have shifted their strategies around hiring overseas players so that short, single season contracts are no longer available and contracted players must commit to two years at least... they are definitely looking to improve their domestic product.

Where NZ could have gone with this before getting locked into the shitfight with RA was out into the Pacific. The money from the Silverlight deal could help fund an expansion that includes Japan and the Island teams with en eye on the Western seaboard of the Americas. That looks unlikely while they're embroiled in a shitty abusive relationship with Australia.

As for Argentina... the South American nations do hold a comp and there is a definite appetite for rugby there. Instead of forcing this fiasco of a Global League Wankfest onto everyone, WR could be providing pathways for that comp to develop and provide a serious support for Argentina's need to retain players. I would prefer to see a SH comp that brings all of those teams into the frame or even better, a Pacific comp.
_Os_
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Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:56 pm The issue with Super rugby I see is that Covid and travel restrictions rammed home the message to the unions that their globe straddling, conference embracing engineered finals model was obsolete and unworkable...

no-one kicked anyone out. While borders were closed in Australia and NZ, those two countries held their own domestic comps involving their Super rugby sides. RA even reanimated the corpse of the Force after stabbing the poor thing to death with whatever they could find for years.

The SA teams had been talking for years about going to Europe and they went.

In the aftermath, NZR and RA were left with a choice in how they rebuilt a viable comp and that has turned into an endless dickswinging exercise led by Robinson in NZ who manages to make wiping his arse look too difficult, and Maclennan in Aus who seems to belong to that cohort of Sydneysiders whose delusions of grandeur regarding their incestuous little rugby shitpile is measured by how abusive they can be towards NZ and NZers in the name of having a good time on the harbour. The fact that NZ generated a substantial broadcast rights deal on its own and RA only managed to scrape up some left over chicken feed has rankled deeply and much of the posturing out of Sydney is resentment driven.

They're both wankers and the current Super Rugby format, with a hyperbolic 'Super' super round featuring all games held in Melbourne FFS to try and present a quivering lower lip to the sporting juggernaut that is the start of the AFL and NRL seasons IN Australia is a shiny testament to the small minded battle for territorial ego strut they've got the whole shitfight locked into.

There are mutterings about Japan joining an expanded RC. There is still a possibility the club scene in Japan could be drawn into Super rugby somehow and the clubs have shifted their strategies around hiring overseas players so that short, single season contracts are no longer available and contracted players must commit to two years at least... they are definitely looking to improve their domestic product.

Where NZ could have gone with this before getting locked into the shitfight with RA was out into the Pacific. The money from the Silverlight deal could help fund an expansion that includes Japan and the Island teams with en eye on the Western seaboard of the Americas. That looks unlikely while they're embroiled in a shitty abusive relationship with Australia.

As for Argentina... the South American nations do hold a comp and there is a definite appetite for rugby there. Instead of forcing this fiasco of a Global League Wankfest onto everyone, WR could be providing pathways for that comp to develop and provide a serious support for Argentina's need to retain players. I would prefer to see a SH comp that brings all of those teams into the frame or even better, a Pacific comp.
Thanks for the update. It's unbelievable the Aussies are still up to all their bullshit. The room is emptying of people and they're continuing to Aussie. I always felt SARU got blamed for a lot, purely because they were the only ones prepared to say either "hold up that is total bullshit" or "hold up if you're getting that we are too". I guess NZRU is forced to do that job now.

Super Rugby went the way it did for 2 reasons:

1. The Aussies had no domestic comp, this led to them importing heaps of parochial bullshit into Super Rugby. Basically they wanted to inject an Aussie domestic comp into Super Rugby, and then use Super Rugby to go after other Aussie sport markets. This is where the demand for derby matches (home and away games between teams from the same nation) and more teams came from. But SARU could hardly sit back as that undermined CC (it meant there was a full strength CC with half the teams in Super Rugby, whilst the CC had all the teams but wasn't full strength), so SARU demanded more sides in reaction. The "weakness" of SA sides was overblown too, the Kings (our 6th side) against all Aussie sides were W4/L4/D1.

SARU started exploring other options when all these expansions motivated by the Aussies not having a domestic comp, ended up in Super Rugby going from 18 teams to 15, with SA reduced to 4 sides. Which was less than SA had during Super 14, SARU was pushed back to its Super 12 position (it's 2005 position!). Based on results and what each side was bringing to the table (and giving up by being at the table at all), it didn't seem right at all that SA had 4 out of 15 sides. SARU's bluff was called when that happened, that was when SARU started giving up and when the Cheetahs and Kings were added to Pro14.

2. Expansion was bodged. There were all sorts of random demands that didn't make sense (usually from the Aussies) that went into the format. To me the no brainer option was something like 3 conferences (an Aussie and Japanese conference/NZ conference/SA and Arg conference), they all play only within their conference to determine who qualifies for a Super Rugby round. Something like this was proposed by SARU at one point, but was shot down because the SA and Arg conference would have more teams and so start earlier (to complete their games at the same time as the other conferences). Basically the Aussies demanded the tournament all start at the same time, so they could watch derby matches in SA they say they don't watch. I suspect it was really about the Aussies not wanting a domestic comp (which is what they would've had), they want somehow to leech off NZ to beat other Aussie sports (it's madness but that's what their actions point to). So instead we had the clown car of 4 conferences and inter conference games, which formed a combined log (when no side played all other sides on the log), SA having two conferences including a Japanese side on the other side of the world (who the Aussies demand be included, but refused to have in their conference).


My preferred option was Super Rugby not ending, but there ended up being no way to reach a sensible outcome. I think SA has to make the best of the URC now.
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OomStruisbaai
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The URC move was a brave one from SARU. It's a much better competition then S100. It cost SARU a lot of money until 2025 but it was the right one.

Much better format plus there is the European competitions above the URC level.

Ad the CC and Varsity Cup and it all have benefits for SA and world rugby. Developing rugby players coming through our excellent schoolboy structures.

At top level, Springboks playing in either Japan or in the same competitions.
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Dan54
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_Os_ wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:28 am
Dan54 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:49 pm There's no reason to force anyone into RC Os, the 6Ns and RC don't count towards qualifying as far as I can see, will just be the NH teams touring that will be where quaiifying is done. Don't know if I like it or not yet as haven't thought heavily on it.
The last time this came up in about 2021 there was a lot of talk of Japan joining the RC for the 2024 season. I'm very suspicious.

If the aim was to eventually including the 6N and RC into this forever tournament, then you wouldn't want the 6N format to change (tick that box), you would want the RC format to change. You would also want two pools of 6, I'm sure there were other formats that could've included more sides. There's no reason to maybe start promotion/relegation in 2030 unless you wanted Japan and Fiji to become regular test fixtures and get a free lunch like Italy.

I would have to Google those 2021-ish stories and reread it all. But if I had to guess SANZAAR is under pressure to include Tier 2 sides, in a way the 6N isn't/cannot. This is the outcome. The pressure is going to remain on the RC becoming something worse, which would be fine if SANZAAR countries were rolling in cash but err ...
Yep mate reason I say no need to force any change ( I don't mind them coming in) is the RC or 6N have nothing to do with qualification, reason they can plan for promotion relegation, as 'free lunch' teams can still play in various comps without it effecting this idea. It's good keep everything seperate.
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Guy Smiley
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An update to my earlier post regarding Argentinian players heading north... there is a comp set up that started this year, Super Rugby Americas...

a 7 team franchise team set up that includes 2 teams from Argentina playing teams from Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Brazil and the US. This is its first year.
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