2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[fishfoodie]

Leinster
Toulouse
Stormers
LaR

Hard to disagree, although La Rochelle will need to up their game having nearly been turned over by Gloucester of all teams.

ROG will use that, performance, to beat the players for the next week, & give them the kick up the arse they need ..... which is a pity, because I'd hoped they'd sleepwalk into the next few games & get beaten as a result

[Sards]

Love how the Sharks are written off. Underdog status
Great weather in store for the game

[Uncle fester]

With only two French Quarter finalists compared to England’s three do we need to have a discussion about the crisis in the French game?

Depends how you define crisis.
- Your national side is the worst performing in the world relative to resources.
- You don't have a single player who would make a world 2nd XV best, let alone the 1st.
- Your Ux performances don't suggest much is coming through to alter that.
- 2 of your clubs have folded, one of them arguably your one with the best history in Europe.
- Serious questions over the long term viability of many of the others.
- Your 2nd tier offers nothing to replace them.
- Your attendances wouldn't trouble the 2nd division of football.

Yep
Twat, utter twat

Some excellent points there. You should bait Torq more often.

[SaintK]

Depends how you define crisis.
- Your national side is the worst performing in the world relative to resources.
- You don't have a single player who would make a world 2nd XV best, let alone the 1st.
- Your Ux performances don't suggest much is coming through to alter that.
- 2 of your clubs have folded, one of them arguably your one with the best history in Europe.
- Serious questions over the long term viability of many of the others.
- Your 2nd tier offers nothing to replace them.
- Your attendances wouldn't trouble the 2nd division of football.

Yep
Twat, utter twat

Some excellent points there. You should bait Torq more often.

Don't disagree with a lot of them to be honest
Just think he posts like a complete one-eyed twat..............particularly in regard to referees

[Uncle fester]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

[laurent]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

Finally you admit it.

Annoyed I am unable to fly in for the AIL Final ...

[OomStruisbaai]

Leinster
Toulouse
Stormers
LaR

I am not that confident about the Stormers. Will be a bonus if they beat Exeter Chiefs.

I am with Sards. Will be massive for SA Rugby if the $hark$ knock out Toulouse. its like a mini Bok vs France WC knockout game.

[Simian]

Leinster
Toulouse
Stormers
LaR

I am not that confident about the Stormers. Will be a bonus if they beat Exeter Chiefs.

I am with Sards. Will be massive for SA Rugby if the $hark$ knock out Toulouse. its like a mini Bok vs France WC knockout game.

Yeah, Exeter stormers could be really tight

[Torquemada 1420]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

[Sards]

Leinster
Toulouse
Stormers
LaR

I am not that confident about the Stormers. Will be a bonus if they beat Exeter Chiefs.

I am with Sards. Will be massive for SA Rugby if the $hark$ knock out Toulouse. its like a mini Bok vs France WC knockout game.

Best thing it's 16 max , 8 minimum clear skies so it will beg for running rugby. Big ask to knock over Toulouse and then Leinster. Away. Stormers have a very easy route. It's about which side of the draw you were placed. Not about positioning

[OomStruisbaai]

Leinster
Toulouse
Stormers
LaR

I am not that confident about the Stormers. Will be a bonus if they beat Exeter Chiefs.

I am with Sards. Will be massive for SA Rugby if the $hark$ knock out Toulouse. its like a mini Bok vs France WC knockout game.

Yeah, Exeter stormers could be really tight

If the Stormers play their running game they should be fine. Once the kicking start I get pissed off. They have that tendency playing up north. Their defense have been excellent all year.

I watched the Exeter game yesterday. They show great character to pull it through in the end. Thats champion material.

[Lobby]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

[Sandstorm]

Anyone got a working stream for Stormers v Quins please?

https://www.vipbox.lc/stormers-vs-harlequins-4-live

Cheers for the persistent malware bro. Laptop is fucked today.

[sockwithaticket]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

I thought it was a reasonable decision. Since the 'level of force/degree of danger' mitigations came in we've seen refs give a lot of yellows for incidents that really should have been reds and were reds 18 months ago. The problem for Brace here is other officials not wanting to issue reds rather than his being harsh.

[Torquemada 1420]

Anyone got a working stream for Stormers v Quins please?

https://www.vipbox.lc/stormers-vs-harlequins-4-live

Cheers for the persistent malware bro. Laptop is fucked today.

Never go near vipbox. If you use fbstream
https://tm.fbstream.tv/stream/rugby
in Firefox with the correct add ons:
- ublock origin
- privacy badger
- https everywhere
it works most of the time with only the occasional reload or switch required.

vipbox won't let you load if you use any blockers and no way would I let it run unchecked.

[TheNatalShark]

Vipbox can be a ballache to get going

To be honest, the below for me has delivered great quality and consistency, and if it has ads they are well beaten by adblock. Doesn't always have smaller games like those involving Stormers though

https://tgo-tv.co/sports.php

[Torquemada 1420]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

I thought it was a reasonable decision. Since the 'level of force/degree of danger' mitigations came in we've seen refs give a lot of yellows for incidents that really should have been reds and were reds 18 months ago. The problem for Brace here is other officials not wanting to issue reds rather than his being harsh.

I've not found a clip yet. It just seemed to give rise to a lot of this
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/watch- ... 00662.html?

with even Baxter (who is one of the fairest guys out there) saying he thought it was harsh.

A couple of ironies
- I probably dislike MH more than I dislike Brace and so his efforts have not caused me to lose any sleep on this one
- I skipped the game because MH are rugby-cancer and Chiefs haven't been much better on the eye this season and yet it appears to have been something of a cracker!

[JM2K6]

It was "harsh" in that it could be argued down to yellow, but the facts are he went into a tackle upright and drove up, hitting someone flush in the head with his shoulder.

A significant number of refs would red card that.

[sockwithaticket]

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

I thought it was a reasonable decision. Since the 'level of force/degree of danger' mitigations came in we've seen refs give a lot of yellows for incidents that really should have been reds and were reds 18 months ago. The problem for Brace here is other officials not wanting to issue reds rather than his being harsh.

I've not found a clip yet. It just seemed to give rise to a lot of this
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/watch- ... 00662.html?

with even Baxter (who is one of the fairest guys out there) saying he thought it was harsh.

A couple of ironies
- I probably dislike MH more than I dislike Brace and so his efforts have not caused me to lose any sleep on this one
- I skipped the game because MH are rugby-cancer and Chiefs haven't been much better on the eye this season and yet it appears to have been something of a cracker!

Despite Mercer's protestations over the ref mic that he bent his knees, that didn't change his height appreciably and he was hitting up with his shoulder, so not a passive tackle, which made contact with Tshiunza's head. I don't really see what mitigation there is to make it anything other than a red. Pretty much exactly what Brace says.

I don't place much stock in what head coaches/DORs say around these cards tbh. They're a big part of the reason we're still seeing so many.

Cracker might be overdoing it, but it was certainly very compelling and tightly fought.

[CM11]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

[Uncle fester]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

Didn't see the game but confidently making statements about incidents that happened in that game...

[Torquemada 1420]

Vast majority of refs are cheats tbf, myself included.

We certainly deserve abuse via our dad's memorial page.

Anyone who was involved in taking to that an an approach to express anger at Brace should be ashamed.

As an aside, I don't understand why anybody exposes himself to meejuh like Tw*tter, let alone anyone in a public profile. You know exactly what you are going to get and the higher the profile, the more the extremists and nutterss.

I didn't see most of the game but by all accounts the red was yet another dismal decision by Brace against a Fre team.

Didn't see the game but confidently making statements about incidents that happened in that game...

Incident is singular. As in brain cell.

I assume you read absolutely no news reporting of any kind?

[Torquemada 1420]

Despite Mercer's protestations over the ref mic that he bent his knees, that didn't change his height appreciably and he was hitting up with his shoulder, so not a passive tackle, which made contact with Tshiunza's head. I don't really see what mitigation there is to make it anything other than a red. Pretty much exactly what Brace says.

I don't place much stock in what head coaches/DORs say around these cards tbh. They're a big part of the reason we're still seeing so many.

Cracker might be overdoing it, but it was certainly very compelling and tightly fought.

Thanks for posting time stamped link.

That's a very, very soft red for me. Still far too many inconsistencies in the way foul play is being reffed. It's not in the highlights so I can't return the favour but there was a ridiculously late hit on BB by Cane on Saturday that did not even draw a pen. In another game (can't recall which), a Fre ball carrier went so low, a head on head was almost unavoidable. Carrier was at least to blame but it seems if you have the ball in hand, you are now immune from any responsibility into contact.

I've not seen a media comment yet supporting the decision e.g.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/zach-mer ... -red-card/

{EDIT} I can barely find a comment supporting the decision

and even if everyone there is wrong, the game really does have a problem if its audience cannot understand how the most serious of decisions is reached. We all take it for granted that the laws make the rest of the game unfathomable!

[Torquemada 1420]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

The one upside of it for me

[JM2K6]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

[Simian]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

Dunno about ‘clear’, but I’d have thought this part of the mitigation considerations would have warranted some discussion: “late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact”. Probably this one too: An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust.

Even before you get to the mitigations, I’d have thought the implied interpretation that there was a high degree of danger would have been debatable.

We’ve seen similar reds get downgraded in the premiership (Hislop’s one, for example) so I’ll be interested to see what happens next.

[JM2K6]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

Dunno about ‘clear’, but I’d have thought this part of the mitigation considerations would have warranted some discussion: “late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact”. Probably this one too: An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust.

Even before you get to the mitigations, I’d have thought the implied interpretation that there was a high degree of danger would have been debatable.

We’ve seen similar reds get downgraded in the premiership (Hislop’s one, for example) so I’ll be interested to see what happens next.

As someone whose instinct was that it was yellow I'm finding it hard to find any real mitigation beyond "it honestly didn't look that dangerous in real time", i.e. that the level of danger wasn't that high. The change in dynamics is minor - this isn't a case of a legal tackle attempt being turned into an illegal one by a big last second drop in height.

The time to adjust was before he went in high.

[Simian]

What's the clear mitigation?

Dunno about ‘clear’, but I’d have thought this part of the mitigation considerations would have warranted some discussion: “late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact”. Probably this one too: An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust.

Even before you get to the mitigations, I’d have thought the implied interpretation that there was a high degree of danger would have been debatable.

We’ve seen similar reds get downgraded in the premiership (Hislop’s one, for example) so I’ll be interested to see what happens next.

As someone whose instinct was that it was yellow I'm finding it hard to find any real mitigation beyond "it honestly didn't look that dangerous in real time", i.e. that the level of danger wasn't that high. The change in dynamics is minor - this isn't a case of a legal tackle attempt being turned into an illegal one by a big last second drop in height.

The time to adjust was before he went in high.

Yeah, I’m thinking along the same lines as you, I reckon (tho if it wasn’t high degree of danger that would mean it was a YC without any need to go to the mitigation, I think).

I agree that the time to adjust was much earlier (go lower to avoid risk, basically), but that’s really where I think there is potentially a case for taking the presence of the first tackler into account and their effect on the dynamics (he couldn’t really have gone any lower).

My point wasn’t really that there was a clear case for mitigation, more that I was surprised they didn’t seem to discuss any of those issues. Basically, I don’t think a red was really OTT (given the framework), but thought it was a bit more debatable than the officials did.

(I was pretty surprised the Hislop red in the Prem was downgraded to yellow after the fact)

[CM11]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

Low level of danger. He was standing still waiting to absorb the hit. The other tackler moved the position of the attacker's head into his shoulder.

Personally I think any opportunity to mitigate should be taken. It's why I'm in favour of the 20 min red card bin and the trial they've implemented in the SH.

[OomStruisbaai]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

Low level of danger. He was standing still waiting to absorb the hit. The other tackler moved the position of the attacker's head into his shoulder.

Personally I think any opportunity to mitigate should be taken. It's why I'm in favour of the 20 min red card bin and the trial they've implemented in the SH.

Even the TV had it wrong. They show the red card for Exeter and changed it afterwards.

Its pretty shite if you have the possession and the tackler goes high and the heads clash.

[sockwithaticket]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

Low level of danger. He was standing still waiting to absorb the hit. The other tackler moved the position of the attacker's head into his shoulder.

Personally I think any opportunity to mitigate should be taken. It's why I'm in favour of the 20 min red card bin and the trial they've implemented in the SH.

His feet may have been stationary, but he was hitting forward and up. Not low level of danger imo.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

https://www.vipbox.lc/stormers-vs-harlequins-4-live

Cheers for the persistent malware bro. Laptop is fucked today.

Never go near vipbox. If you use fbstream
https://tm.fbstream.tv/stream/rugby
in Firefox with the correct add ons:
- ublock origin
- privacy badger
- https everywhere
it works most of the time with only the occasional reload or switch required.

vipbox won't let you load if you use any blockers and no way would I let it run unchecked.

vipbox works fine with adblockers running. You have to enable javascript for two sites max usually.

[Morton]

Anyone got a working stream for Stormers v Quins please?

https://www.vipbox.lc/stormers-vs-harlequins-4-live

Cheers for the persistent malware bro. Laptop is fucked today.

Here in Germany there is streaming site called more than sports TV. It has been showing many Heineken cup games and is free. Quarter finals will be shown. You might need a VPN though and the commentary might be in German. During the week they are showing repeats of some of last weekend's games. Worth a try maybe as a last resort.

[PornDog]

Probably this one too: An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust.

Nah, calling bollox on that one. If we're being incredibly generous, his arm was at most at 45° angle (more like 30°) from his body. Now I don't think there is a definition for when a shoulder becomes a wrapped tackle, but for my money that's not enough (feel the hardness of your own shoulder at 45° vs 70° - big difference, in hardness and contact area).

PLUS - he clearly twists his body entering into the actual contact, meaning instead of being directly to his side his arm goes back and shoulder goes forward, negating what little benefit that even 45° brought to the collision in the first place. He leads with his shoulder. That's an act of foul play and more than any other single aspect of the collision (well besides the actual head contact), means its was correct to be a red card.


More than any individual player, this is a consistent failing fo coaches, and by extension, a failure by World Rubgy to properly communicate HOW NOT TO FUCKING TACKLE SOMEONE!!

Players are doing these stupid things more from instinct than actual deliberate thought, because this stupidity hasn't been coached out of them yet. World Rugby needs to step up and start doing instructional videos like they did with the "forward pass" "momentum" clarifications a few years ago.

Don't stick your fucking shoulder into someone, let alone their head!

[Torquemada 1420]

Cheers for the persistent malware bro. Laptop is fucked today.

Never go near vipbox. If you use fbstream
https://tm.fbstream.tv/stream/rugby
in Firefox with the correct add ons:
- ublock origin
- privacy badger
- https everywhere
it works most of the time with only the occasional reload or switch required.

vipbox won't let you load if you use any blockers and no way would I let it run unchecked.

vipbox works fine with adblockers running. You have to enable javascript for two sites max usually.

Yup: and running jscript falls into my category of not fine!

[Torquemada 1420]

https://www.vipbox.lc/stormers-vs-harlequins-4-live

Cheers for the persistent malware bro. Laptop is fucked today.

Here in Germany there is streaming site called more than sports TV. It has been showing many Heineken cup games and is free. Quarter finals will be shown. You might need a VPN though and the commentary might be in German. During the week they are showing repeats of some of last weekend's games. Worth a try maybe as a last resort.

Cheers

[Simian]

Probably this one too: An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust.

Nah, calling bollox on that one. If we're being incredibly generous, his arm was at most at 45° angle (more like 30°) from his body. Now I don't think there is a definition for when a shoulder becomes a wrapped tackle, but for my money that's not enough (feel the hardness of your own shoulder at 45° vs 70° - big difference, in hardness and contact area).

PLUS - he clearly twists his body entering into the actual contact, meaning instead of being directly to his side his arm goes back and shoulder goes forward, negating what little benefit that even 45° brought to the collision in the first place. He leads with his shoulder. That's an act of foul play and more than any other single aspect of the collision (well besides the actual head contact), means its was correct to be a red card.


More than any individual player, this is a consistent failing fo coaches, and by extension, a failure by World Rubgy to properly communicate HOW NOT TO FUCKING TACKLE SOMEONE!!

Players are doing these stupid things more from instinct than actual deliberate thought, because this stupidity hasn't been coached out of them yet. World Rugby needs to step up and start doing instructional videos like they did with the "forward pass" "momentum" clarifications a few years ago.

Don't stick your fucking shoulder into someone, let alone their head!

I mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.

but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?

[OomStruisbaai]

[OomStruisbaai]

Leinster Rugby
v
Leicester Tigers

Friday 7 April 2023 20:00 Heineken Champions Cup Quarter Finals Aviva Stadium Ref: Nika Amashukeli (Georgia) Assis Ref 1: Pierre Brousset (France) Assis Ref 2: Tual Trainini (France) TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)

Stade Toulousain
v
Cell C Sharks

Saturday 8 April 2023 16:00 Heineken Champions Cup Quarter Finals Stade Ernest Wallon Ref: Karl Dickson (England) Assis Ref 1: Christophe Ridley (England) Assis Ref 2: Jonathan Healy (England) TMO: Tom Foley (England)

Exeter Chiefs
v
DHL Stormers

Saturday 8 April 2023 17:30 Heineken Champions Cup Quarter Finals Sandy Park Ref: Mathieu Raynal (France) Assis Ref 1: Ludovic Cayre (France) Assis Ref 2: Jonathan Gasnier (France) TMO: Thomas Charabas (France)

Stade Rochelais
v
Saracens

Sunday 9 April 2023 16:00 Heineken Champions Cup Quarter Finals Stade Marcel Deflandre Ref: Andrew Brace (Ireland) Assis Ref 1: Frank Murphy (Ireland) Assis Ref 2: Chris Busby (Ireland) TMO: Joy Neville (Ireland)

[Kawazaki]

It was "harsh" in that it could be argued down to yellow, but the facts are he went into a tackle upright and drove up, hitting someone flush in the head with his shoulder.

A significant number of refs would red card that.

Pearce didn't in the Sarries v Quins match did he.