The Official English Rugby Thread

[Margin__Walker]

The draft system point is an interesting on as it's slightly more nuanced than originally reported when he was interviewed and mentioned it the other day. Given most academy intakes are 6 or 7 kids a year, having a draft after clubs have picked their top five U18s isn't a completely outlandish suggestion. Given that he does have a point about the inequality of some of the academy boundaries.

Clearly doesn't take into account the wishes of the kids in question though, so has big practical hurdles.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, interesting point about a draft and good to see a DoR actually vocalise that it's not easy to tell which teenagers are going to make it.

As we keep discussing, the player exodus thing is such a red herring. The French and Japanese clubs do not have an unlimited capacity for foreign players, in fact it's reducing all the time, so even if English players want to leave for more money, only a small number are actually going to get the opportunity to do so.

[Raggs]

I've been against a draft in the past, due to players having to move, but in the end, if combined with the idea of taking the top 5 for yourselves, then it probably gives those lower on the ladder a better chance of staying in the game if they can get a wider range of potential suitors. And if they aren't willing to move, then they just have to hope their own academy will pick them anyway, or go through another route (BUCS etc).

[Kawazaki]

It demonstrates how utterly fucking hopeless the Harlequins academy is if they have 22% of the top 100 rugby schools feeding into it. What the hell do they do with them, silver service waiters for the members bar?

[Happyhooker]

It demonstrates how utterly fucking hopeless the Harlequins academy is if they have 22% of the top 100 rugby schools feeding into it. What the hell do they do with them, silver service waiters for the members bar?

You mean players like Tizard????

[sockwithaticket]

Nick Evans not going to the World Cup with England apparently.

Tbh he's probably happier back at Quins, the national team doesn't have the ambition to make any real use of him and his ideas.

[SaintK]

Nick Evans not going to the World Cup with England apparently.

Tbh he's probably happier back at Quins, the national team doesn't have the ambition to make any real use of him and his ideas.

The team certainly didn't appear to during the 6N

[JM2K6]

Nick Evans not going to the World Cup with England apparently.

Tbh he's probably happier back at Quins, the national team doesn't have the ambition to make any real use of him and his ideas.

I think you can say he was a bit of a failed experiment from an outsider's perspective but Borthwick was obviously very keen. Obviously the RFU are taking the piss a bit if they think they can just borrow coaches whenever they want for as long as they want - if you want him that badly just sign him. Otherwise, it was advertised as being something just for the 6N and there's a huge difference between allowing someone to go work for England as it's a great opportunity and allowing that to destabilise the club.

[Kawazaki]

It demonstrates how utterly fucking hopeless the Harlequins academy is if they have 22% of the top 100 rugby schools feeding into it. What the hell do they do with them, silver service waiters for the members bar?

You mean players like Tizard????

Yeah, he's a real regular grunt off the prolific Quins academy production line isn't he? Replaced by a journeyman Wasp.

[JM2K6]

It demonstrates how utterly fucking hopeless the Harlequins academy is if they have 22% of the top 100 rugby schools feeding into it. What the hell do they do with them, silver service waiters for the members bar?

You mean players like Tizard????

Yeah, he's a real regular grunt off the prolific Quins academy production line isn't he? Replaced by a journeyman Wasp.

Who what

Quins have won two league titles with teams stuffed with academy graduates and have provided internationals on the regular for a long time now. Tizard is only now being replaced by Joe Launchbury, who very much isn't a journeyman, and his other recent academy graduate colleagues Lamb and Hammond have also stepped up in his absence to take their place alongside all the other homegrown players old and new, like Marler, Baxter, Collier, Wallace, Chisholm, Smith, Marchant, Lynagh, Murley, Riley, etc etc. It's great to see Quins sticking to their guns and continuing to promote academy talent

I know you have a pathological hatred of all things Quins but "Quins academy is utterly fucking hopeless" is genuinely hilarious.

[Kawazaki]

Quins have got 22% of the top 100 rugby schools in their catchment area.

What the Quins academy is churning out is dogshit quality given those resources.

[SaintK]

Quins have got 22% of the top 100 rugby schools in their catchment area.

What the Quins academy is churning out is dogshit quality given those resources.

You mean they have 8 more schools in their catchment area than Sarries and 6 more than L Irish?
All three clubs do well in producing players through that particular channel

[Kawazaki]

Quins have got 22% of the top 100 rugby schools in their catchment area.

What the Quins academy is churning out is dogshit quality given those resources.

You mean they have 8 more schools in their catchment area than Sarries and 6 more than L Irish?
All three clubs do well in producing players through that particular channel

More than 1 in 5 rugby schools in England is affiliated to Quins!

We're all stakeholders in the England team. I think London Irish and Saracens academies are pulling their weight.

[SaintK]

Quins have got 22% of the top 100 rugby schools in their catchment area.

What the Quins academy is churning out is dogshit quality given those resources.

You mean they have 8 more schools in their catchment area than Sarries and 6 more than L Irish?
All three clubs do well in producing players through that particular channel

More than 1 in 5 rugby schools in England is affiliated to Quins!

We're all stakeholders in the England team. I think London Irish and Saracens academies are pulling their weight.

More interesting is that the three London Prem clubs hoover up academy prospects from over 50% of the top rugby schools if Lam's statement is correct.
I guess it's to do with population and demographics but it leaves Bath, Bristol and Glaws fighting over a smaller feeder area in the SW, Exeter in a low population region with very few feeder schools. Saints and Tigers have always had reasonably strong links with schools across the Midlands. Falcons and Sale are both out on a limb in their respective regions.
Probably just as well there is another feeder route through club rugby to the academies though I trhink the schools route still monopolises at age group international level

[JM2K6]

Quins have got 22% of the top 100 rugby schools in their catchment area.

What the Quins academy is churning out is dogshit quality given those resources.

What, loads of premiership first team players, title winners, and internationals?

Awful.

[JM2K6]

Quins have got 22% of the top 100 rugby schools in their catchment area.

What the Quins academy is churning out is dogshit quality given those resources.

You mean they have 8 more schools in their catchment area than Sarries and 6 more than L Irish?
All three clubs do well in producing players through that particular channel

More than 1 in 5 rugby schools in England is affiliated to Quins!

We're all stakeholders in the England team. I think London Irish and Saracens academies are pulling their weight.

This is going to be another delightful exhibition of the flexible nature of who you consider to be from the Saracens academy, isn't it.

Irish have a couple of great prospects at the moment but there's no contest between them and Quins for premiership and international production over the last decade or so.

[Kawazaki]

Quins have got 57% more rugby schools feeding their academy than Saracens have got. Don't kid yourself, it's pretty average fare that Quins have been churning out. Bang average in fact.

[JM2K6]

Uh huh, uh huh. Tell me again about how Irish are pulling their weight and Quins aren't

Also signing players from championship clubs and nicking them from other premiership academies doesn't allow you to claim them for your own academy just fyi

[inactionman]

Uh huh, uh huh. Tell me again about how Irish are pulling their weight and Quins aren't

Also signing players from championship clubs and nicking them from other premiership academies doesn't allow you to claim them for your own academy just fyi

That's Bath's trick, thank you very much.

Also, I'm not sure where Lam referred to top 100 rugby schools - just top 100 schools.

[JM2K6]

Uh huh, uh huh. Tell me again about how Irish are pulling their weight and Quins aren't

Also signing players from championship clubs and nicking them from other premiership academies doesn't allow you to claim them for your own academy just fyi

That's Bath's trick, thank you very much.

Also, I'm not sure where Lam referred to top 100 rugby schools - just top 100 schools.

To be clear it's not Irish I'm aiming that bit at. Toga likes to claim an awful lot of signings as Saracens academy.

Good spot on the language.

[Margin__Walker]

People often talk about LI historically good academy, but that's not really the case. They had a purple patch 15 years or so ago where a cohort of really good players came through over the course of two or three seasons when Hatley was heading it up. JM's right that you'd say Quins have historically pulled their weight a lot more.

After that though it was underfunded and unproductive for a long time. There were a lot of slow years where the senior team just wasn't being fed through the pathway in the way most other teams were. Think I looked and in either the first relegation season or subsequent Championship season 4 players in the senior squad came through the academy. This season it's 18. The turnaround has been huge and is pretty key to being sustainable and competitive going forward. A few things happened to help things along, with the pick up of additional territory into Middlesex and funding required to set up additional DPP branches. There's been huge continuity and vision behind the scenes since Kennedy became DoR, with Kidney continuing the support. Since 2016 they've won the Academy League title 3 times*.

The talk of the 100 best schools is interesting and there is definitely some inequality there, when compared to the likes of Bristol and Exeter. However, one place LI have made progress is the energy put into the ACE team as a pathway into pro rugby for state school kids. In a few of the last intakes, pushing 50% of players involved came through this route. You no longer have to rely on picking up a scholarship to a top private school to make it if you're not privately educated. Noticed that Quins have joined the ACE League with Gordons in the last few years. Will be interesting to see how productive that ends up being with a well populated catchment.


*Sort of. 2020 was shared as they drew the final with Leicester.

[JM2K6]

Irish are clearly doing well if you have reasonable expectations from academies, that they're there to turn promising young players into professional rugby players and first team options. It's a really exciting crop.

We all know that the England u20s kids - supposedly the best of the young players in the country - often don't really make it, so pretending that being a good schoolkid means you should be an international star is silly.

[inactionman]

People often talk about LI historically good academy, but that's not really the case. They had a purple patch 15 years or so ago where a cohort of really good players came through over the course of two or three seasons when Hatley was heading it up. JM's right that you'd say Quins have historically pulled their weight a lot more.

After that though it was underfunded and unproductive for a long time. There were a lot of slow years where the senior team just wasn't being fed through the pathway in the way most other teams were. Think I looked and in either the first relegation season or subsequent Championship season 4 players in the senior squad came through the academy. This season it's 18. The turnaround has been huge and is pretty key to being sustainable and competitive going forward. A few things happened to help things along, with the pick up of additional territory into Middlesex and funding required to set up additional DPP branches. There's been huge continuity and vision behind the scenes since Kennedy became DoR, with Kidney continuing the support. Since 2016 they've won the Academy League title 3 times*.

The talk of the 100 best schools is interesting and there is definitely some inequality there, when compared to the likes of Bristol and Exeter. However, one place LI have made progress is the energy put into the ACE team as a pathway into pro rugby for state school kids. In a few of the last intakes, pushing 50% of players involved came through this route. You no longer have to rely on picking up a scholarship to a top private school to make it if you're not privately educated. Noticed that Quins have joined the ACE League with Gordons in the last few years. Will be interesting to see how productive that ends up being with a well populated catchment.


*Sort of. 2020 was shared as they drew the final with Leicester.

Bath are getting active in this as well - working with Beechen Cliff under the ACE programme. Of the relatively recent academy players, Miles Reid, Orlando Bailey, Tom De Glanville and Gabriel Hamer-Webb went there, and going back a few years I think the Burns brothers did as well.

Am I right in saying it's only one school for the club under ACE?

[inactionman]

Probably worth noting Anthony Watson and JJ are ultimately products of LI's academy - I think Hatley moved over to Bath about the time they signed.

[Margin__Walker]

Not sure. I've got a feeling there's a club with two, or at least one did have two at some point.

Bath also put a lot of effort into the ACE team. Beechen Cliff are always up there and have plenty of players making the step up after.

[sockwithaticket]

People often talk about LI historically good academy, but that's not really the case. They had a purple patch 15 years or so ago where a cohort of really good players came through over the course of two or three seasons when Hatley was heading it up. JM's right that you'd say Quins have historically pulled their weight a lot more.

After that though it was underfunded and unproductive for a long time. There were a lot of slow years where the senior team just wasn't being fed through the pathway in the way most other teams were. Think I looked and in either the first relegation season or subsequent Championship season 4 players in the senior squad came through the academy. This season it's 18. The turnaround has been huge and is pretty key to being sustainable and competitive going forward. A few things happened to help things along, with the pick up of additional territory into Middlesex and funding required to set up additional DPP branches. There's been huge continuity and vision behind the scenes since Kennedy became DoR, with Kidney continuing the support. Since 2016 they've won the Academy League title 3 times*.

The talk of the 100 best schools is interesting and there is definitely some inequality there, when compared to the likes of Bristol and Exeter. However, one place LI have made progress is the energy put into the ACE team as a pathway into pro rugby for state school kids. In a few of the last intakes, pushing 50% of players involved came through this route. You no longer have to rely on picking up a scholarship to a top private school to make it if you're not privately educated. Noticed that Quins have joined the ACE League with Gordons in the last few years. Will be interesting to see how productive that ends up being with a well populated catchment.


*Sort of. 2020 was shared as they drew the final with Leicester.

Given the way the Irish provincial set ups seem to work, that makes sense. The outsider impression is that they're very keen on hoovering up local talent and promoting local rugby identity. Kidney having been deeply involved at school level over there is probably an ideal man to keep backing an academy focused approach. it's one thing to have a productive academy and another to actually utilise the talent available. Tigers obviously had their years of squandering promising young players by barely playing them and seeing them move on as a result, most notably with Ford and Twelvetrees.

[Kawazaki]

Uh huh, uh huh. Tell me again about how Irish are pulling their weight and Quins aren't

Also signing players from championship clubs and nicking them from other premiership academies doesn't allow you to claim them for your own academy just fyi

That's Bath's trick, thank you very much.

Also, I'm not sure where Lam referred to top 100 rugby schools - just top 100 schools.

To be clear it's not Irish I'm aiming that bit at. Toga likes to claim an awful lot of signings as Saracens academy.

Good spot on the language.

ex-Saracens academy players in the senior squad.


Earl*
Isiekwe*
Itoje*
George*
Tompkins*
Wray
Farrell*
Goode*
Pifeleti*
Dan
Adams-Hale
Christie*
Malins*
Vunipola Manu
Segun
Crean
Boon
Knight
Stonham
Morris
Hallett
Harris

[JM2K6]

Good to see you've given up on Mako and Taylor!

22 for Quins, btw.

[Margin__Walker]

Given the way the Irish provincial set ups seem to work, that makes sense. The outsider impression is that they're very keen on hoovering up local talent and promoting local rugby identity. Kidney having been deeply involved at school level over there is probably an ideal man to keep backing an academy focused approach. it's one thing to have a productive academy and another to actually utilise the talent available. Tigers obviously had their years of squandering promising young players by barely playing them and seeing them move on as a result, most notably with Ford and Twelvetrees.

Yeah, Kidney has been a really good figurehead for it and bought into the importance. It's about getting to a place now where someone like OHC leaves and it's not ideal, but it's ultimately okay. You've got talent working through behind him all the time. When guys like JJ and Watson left in the past, there was no one. It was completely barren for a long time after that crop. You can't hope to be competitive if you are having to bring all of your players in from elsewhere.

[Kawazaki]

Good to see you've given up on Mako and Taylor!

22 for Quins, btw.

Both were kids when they joined, both uncapped of course and both spent their entire senior careers with the club. Plenty of other players have joined Saracens as very young uncapped players and gone on to be very good capped players.

I didn't realise that Quins had such a huge advantage over all the other clubs with regards to their academy catchment.

[JM2K6]

Good to see you've given up on Mako and Taylor!

22 for Quins, btw.

Both were kids when they joined, both uncapped of course and both spent their entire senior careers with the club. Plenty of other players have joined Saracens as very young uncapped players and gone on to be very good capped players.

I didn't realise that Quins had such a huge advantage over all the other clubs with regards to their academy catchment.

Kids from other teams who went straight into pro contracts.

Have we even worked out what top schools means in this context? If it's academic schools then lol. And given how well some teams in other parts of the country do academy wise it's very clear that the schools are hardly the be all and end all of young talent.

But it's also clear that Quins have done a fine job with their academy and they've been lauded for over a decade for how well they've turned young talent into excellent first team premiership players and internationals. Saracens have done similar and I'm sure their recent comparative dry spell will come to an end soon. Irish, as pointed out to you by actual fans, have not had the same output but I'm very excited by their prospects, assuming they can stay afloat long enough to see this crop hit their stride.

[Deveron Boy]

RFU want Nick Evans for RwC but not full time (felix Jones currently with South Africa doing post World Cup) Quins have said full time gone or not at all which I think is perfectly reasonable

[Torquemada 1420]

Genge remains a liability with his discipline. Not sure how that's not red.

[sockwithaticket]

Genge remains a liability with his discipline. Not sure how that's not red.

Because Pearce doesn't like giving them.

I know it's probably not going to happen because it allows refs who don't to give reds to give yellows instead, but this force/level of danger aspect of the framework has to go.

[inactionman]

Bath take lead against Glaws with bonus point try.

Wonderhill now on, and slipped the offload to Tom Dunn for the try.

Hill and Underhill look a very decent combination.

[Torquemada 1420]

Genge remains a liability with his discipline. Not sure how that's not red.

Because Pearce doesn't like giving them.

I know it's probably not going to happen because it allows refs who don't to give reds to give yellows instead, but this force/level of danger aspect of the framework has to go.

Not even clear how force wasn't anything other than high end either!

[inactionman]

Bath take lead against Glaws with bonus point try.

Wonderhill now on, and slipped the offload to Tom Dunn for the try.

Hill and Underhill look a very decent combination.

And Underhill goes over.

Lawrence looking very good as well - such a tidy blend of pace, power, nous and hands.

Bath 33 - 24 Glaws

[inactionman]

..and Piers Francis comes on and gets a yellow for taking Carreras out in the air.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit tired of defending teams swarming in front of the catcher, trying to interrupt the challenging player. Francis needs to be more careful, but it's asking for trouble.

Rees-Zammit really doesn't do much other than run fast. Gets the ball out wide against a 14-man Bath defence and gets bundled into touch.

[Torquemada 1420]

..and Piers Francis comes on and gets a yellow for taking Carreras out in the air.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit tired of defending teams swarming in front of the catcher, trying to interrupt the challenging player. Francis needs to be more careful, but it's asking for trouble.

Rees-Zammit really doesn't do much other than run fast. Gets the ball out wide against a 14-man Bath defence and gets bundled into touch.

Has to be the most tackle shy player in intl rugby at present.

[inactionman]

Weird match from Carreras, looks so skilful but missed a dolly penalty at the end which would have got a losing bonus point.