2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[PornDog]

I think Ngatai is back fit, but hasn't played in a while. Him or Frawley maybe?

[CM11]

I think Ngatai is back fit, but hasn't played in a while. Him or Frawley maybe?

It's Ngatai.

[JM2K6]

So a hugely experienced top level player. Righto.

[PornDog]

You buying into the whole "everything is so unfair" narrative as well then?

[JM2K6]

You buying into the whole "everything is so unfair" narrative as well then?

No, I'm responding to the "will make the task a lot more difficult" post which made it sound like a disaster. Ngatai is a superb player with a load of Champions Cup experience.

I've always been clear that European rugby isn't and never has been a fair fight. Over the years various countries including England have been able to take advantage of that, and I don't give enough of a shit about the tournament to get upset about it. That goes double when English rugby can barely remain a going concern - worrying about the squads some teams can put together in other countries for a competition my club has little positive history in is at the bottom of the list for me.

[Tichtheid]

Professional team sport isn't fair, to the victor go the spoils etc. Success brings in extra money via prize money. It also attracts more coverage and exposure which brings in the better players and sponsorship etc.

When you have a team like Leinster underpinned by a schools system that looks like it rivals that in South Africa, it makes it all the easier.

It's not unfair, but it's not a level playing field either.

Just as an aside, and apopros of nowt, I seem to recall from the old New Year's Day sprints in Edinburgh, before Athletics went open they used to handicap professional races by having different starting points.

[sturginho]

Benetton Rugby
15 Matteo Minozzi (5)
14 Rhyno Smith (32)
13 Ignacio Brex (71)
12 Tommaso Menoncello (32)
11 Marcus Watson (14)
10 Tomas Albornoz (32)
9 Dewaldt Duvenage (c) (90)
8 Lorenzo Cannone (26)
7 Michele Lamaro (52)
6 Sebastian Negri (70)
5 Federico Ruzza (103)
4 Niccolò Cannone (60)
3 Simone Ferrari (93)
2 Siua Maile (13)
1 Nahuel Tetaz (29)

A disposizione: 16 Giacomo Nicotera (31), 17 Thomas Gallo (41), 18 Filippo Alongi (30), 19 Marco Lazzaroni (128), 20 Henry Time-Stowers (13), 21 Manuel Zuliani (46), 22 Alessandro Garbisi (29), 23 Jacob Umaga (15).

[OomStruisbaai]

Leinster player depth took a nose dive vs the Bulls. That team look below CC level.

[PornDog]

You buying into the whole "everything is so unfair" narrative as well then?

No, I'm responding to the "will make the task a lot more difficult" post which made it sound like a disaster. Ngatai is a superb player with a load of Champions Cup experience.

Fair enough, though there's no question that losing Henshaw is a loss, no matter who you're bringing in. The fact Ngatai hasn't played since January adds to that loss. So while I would absolutely agree that the task is made more difficult, maybe I wouldn't have added the "a lot" to the statement.

Professional team sport isn't fair, to the victor go the spoils etc. Success brings in extra money via prize money. It also attracts more coverage and exposure which brings in the better players and sponsorship etc.

When you have a team like Leinster underpinned by a schools system that looks like it rivals that in South Africa, it makes it all the easier.

It's not unfair, but it's not a level playing field either.

Just as an aside, and apopros of nowt, I seem to recall from the old New Year's Day sprints in Edinburgh, before Athletics went open they used to handicap professional races by having different starting points.

Success does most definitely bring more money, but Leinster's success amounts to one European title in 11 years. The Celtic/Magners/Pro whatever has hardly been a huge money generator (especially compared to the Premiership and Top14s income generating ability) - hence its yet another transformation into the URC, which Leinster again have not yet won.

While not meaning to undermine the great work done in the Leinster Schools system, I think it is also massively over stated and frankly used as an excuse to explain away failures in other teams/regions/provinces. If kids were coming out of it as 'ready made professionals' then our underage teams would be dominated by Leinster players (they're not - least not by much more than demographics would ordinarily suggest) and our underage teams would be wiping the floor with our rivals - instead of shipping huge losses to both England and France which our u18s recently did.

It also does a huge disservice to the development officers and coaches that take these promising young players and mould them into the players that come out of the other side of the Leinster production line. It is at this stage where the real difference is and where much fo the credit deserves to be placed. It is also the most easily replicable for other sides (as easy as getting great development officers and coaches is, that is).

The primary source of Leinster's 'unfair advantage' though has nothing to do with schools, home advantage or overall budget, but lies in the fact that we pay our players significantly less than what the top players earn elsewhere - so we can invest those funds in better squads. Including England payments Itoje and Farrell earn over £1M per year, while our very top players are earning around €650k.

Development. Coaching. Management.

Leinstertainment!




Lemsip.

[Tichtheid]

Professional team sport isn't fair, to the victor go the spoils etc. Success brings in extra money via prize money. It also attracts more coverage and exposure which brings in the better players and sponsorship etc.

When you have a team like Leinster underpinned by a schools system that looks like it rivals that in South Africa, it makes it all the easier.

It's not unfair, but it's not a level playing field either.

Just as an aside, and apopros of nowt, I seem to recall from the old New Year's Day sprints in Edinburgh, before Athletics went open they used to handicap professional races by having different starting points.

Success does most definitely bring more money, but Leinster's success amounts to one European title in 11 years. The Celtic/Magners/Pro whatever has hardly been a huge money generator (especially compared to the Premiership and Top14s income generating ability) - hence its yet another transformation into the URC, which Leinster again have not yet won.

While not meaning to undermine the great work done in the Leinster Schools system, I think it is also massively over stated and frankly used as an excuse to explain away failures in other teams/regions/provinces. If kids were coming out of it as 'ready made professionals' then our underage teams would be dominated by Leinster players (they're not - least not by much more than demographics would ordinarily suggest) and our underage teams would be wiping the floor with our rivals - instead of shipping huge losses to both England and France which our u18s recently did.

It also does a huge disservice to the development officers and coaches that take these promising young players and mould them into the players that come out of the other side of the Leinster production line. It is at this stage where the real difference is and where much fo the credit deserves to be placed. It is also the most easily replicable for other sides (as easy as getting great development officers and coaches is, that is).

The primary source of Leinster's 'unfair advantage' though has nothing to do with schools, home advantage or overall budget, but lies in the fact that we pay our players significantly less than what the top players earn elsewhere - so we can invest those funds in better squads. Including England payments Itoje and Farrell earn over £1M per year, while our very top players are earning around €650k.

Development. Coaching. Management.

Leinstertainment!

When the good schools system is followed on by good development in the under 20s category it's a recipe for success and one Leinster have got right, but it doesn't diminish my point that it's not unfair, but neither is it a level playing field when there is that quality coming through. I took a squint at Leinster's wiki page and all 19 academy players have been capped internationally. That is a great system.

I'm not making any complaint here, the Leinster senior coaching ticket is very strong indeed and it doesn't surprise me in the least that they have replicated that down through the age groups.

[JM2K6]

You buying into the whole "everything is so unfair" narrative as well then?

No, I'm responding to the "will make the task a lot more difficult" post which made it sound like a disaster. Ngatai is a superb player with a load of Champions Cup experience.

Fair enough, though there's no question that losing Henshaw is a loss, no matter who you're bringing in. The fact Ngatai hasn't played since January adds to that loss. So while I would absolutely agree that the task is made more difficult, maybe I wouldn't have added the "a lot" to the statement.

[Uncle fester]

Must check the ERCC app to see what interesting stories they have for the weekend games...

[FalseBayFC]

I understand how Scotland might struggle but how does Wales not manage to do a Leinster?

[Torquemada 1420]

I understand how Scotland might struggle but how does Wales not manage to do a Leinster?

IRFU is pretty smart. WRFU is pretty dim and greedy to go with it.

[CM11]

I understand how Scotland might struggle but how does Wales not manage to do a Leinster?

IRFU is pretty smart. WRFU is pretty dim and greedy to go with it.

This sorta. IRFU controls all aspects of rugby in Ireland. WRU does not, in Wales.

[Tichtheid]

I also think that Ireland was ready-made for pro rugby. The provincial rivalry was already there, there was buy-in from the fans at that level from the off and they didn't have the drain of football.

At least that what it looked like from here.

[laurent]

I also think that Ireland was ready-made for pro rugby. The provincial rivalry was already there, there was buy-in from the fans at that level from the off and they didn't have the drain of football.

At least that what it looked like from here.

You kind of forget the Fact is football is the most played sport and then that Gaelic sports are also more important.

[Tichtheid]

I also think that Ireland was ready-made for pro rugby. The provincial rivalry was already there, there was buy-in from the fans at that level from the off and they didn't have the drain of football.

At least that what it looked like from here.

You kind of forget the Fact is football is the most played sport and then that Gaelic sports are also more important.

As far as I'm aware there is nowhere in Ireland that has over a hundred thousand fans going to two football clubs (or GAA) in one city every other week and another forty thousand going to another two clubs in the second biggest city, then over twenty thousand in the third biggest for one club and the same between two clubs in the fourth, like we have in Scotland, Those cities also have other football clubs that draw fans, plus there are the other towns that have pro clubs.

IIRC Cardiff and Swansea football clubs draw more supporters than their rugby equivalents. In Scotland the rugby fans are outnumbered by football at club level by a huge degree.

edit, also, isn't GAA a summer pastime?

second edit, I'm open to correction on this, but I think there are a fair number of Rangers and Celtic fans that travel over from Ireland for games in Glasgow, this isn't making a point, just something I remembered.

[PornDog]

Domestic soccer here isn't well supported, which is definitely a factor in the plus column for rugby, but it's not that big a plus. You have many thousands hopping on flights and ferries every weekend to go see the Premier League and participation numbers in Dublin alone would dwarf rugby nationwide.

Gaa though is the big one - it's akin to soccer in England, or rugby in the South of France or NZ - it's in the lifeblood of communities big and small. It is also one of the reasons that the provinces are so well established in the national psyche, which has helped people to relate more easily to the rugby equivalents.

[laurent]

Domestic soccer here isn't well supported, which is definitely a factor in the plus column for rugby, but it's not that big a plus. You have many thousands hoping on flights and ferries every weekend to go see the Premier League and participation numbers in Dublin alone would dwarf rugby nationwide.

Gaa though is the big one - it's akin to soccer in England, or rugby in the South of France or NZ - it's in the lifeblood of communities big and small. It is also one of the reasons that the provinces are so well established in the national psyche, which has helped people to relate more easily to he rugby equivalents.

Don't exagerate rugby in South west. there are more people going to TFC games than to the Stade Toulousain .

Rugby is only the 4th team sport practiced in France. French are really big into team sport.
Football is top with 1 902 000 basketball is second with 423 500 handball third 341 000 and rugby 4th 317 900.

to be noted that apart from basket ball the other 2 have multiple World championships title. (basketball is getting closer)

[JM2K6]

I understand how Scotland might struggle but how does Wales not manage to do a Leinster?

More impacted by a vampiric English government. A much smaller, poorer, and less organised country than Ireland. And I'd hazard a guess and say that the game's roots as a working class community game has made it less attractive for investment. I also doubt the excellent Leinster schools system could be easily replicated.

[JM2K6]

Toulouse having no luck so far - Barnes giving them nothing at the breakdown and already lost a midfielder to injury

[Torquemada 1420]

Toulouse having no luck so far - Barnes giving them nothing at the breakdown and already lost a midfielder to injury

He's killed Toulouse there. Lost track of how many turnovers other refs would have awarded whereas Barnes is allowing all sorts of late and illegal entries by Leinster to keep hold of the ball. Would like to have seen that one on Willis earlier on closer inspection.

On another note, my broken record issue with Ramos: every now and again he has a total mental implosion and goes all Poitrenaud and as I keep pointing out, you don't want that in a RWC (or a game like this).

No idea why they didn't just bring Retiere on and dump him on the wing. In some ways, Dupont is a better FH than Ntamack but Graou is a really mediocre SH. That ends this game.

[JM2K6]

Not Barnes' fault but an invented neck roll gives Leinster possession and they score again. This is almost over.

[Torquemada 1420]

LMAO, Barnes awards a turnover breakdown pen.......... to Leinster.

[GogLais]

Well if it weren’t raining I’d go and sort out my paviors.

[JM2K6]

I think he's dropped that but I'm not sure there's any angle that can rule it out. Honestly think he's shanked that but they give anything these days

[JM2K6]

Glad they found the right angle. Anyone else's picture breaking up or just mine? :(

[Torquemada 1420]

I think he's dropped that but I'm not sure there's any angle that can rule it out. Honestly think he's shanked that but they give anything these days

Was about to say 2 issues: touch and separation but Barnes made it impossible to overrule. TF for the TMO doing his job.

[C69]

Feck me this game has been ruined by dodgy officiating.
the French are being feck over, some may say yet again.

[Torquemada 1420]

What did I say about Graou?

[JM2K6]

Probably the funniest try you'll see this season. Unfortunately it also shows the huge impact of Dupont having to play 10, his replacement is half the player

[sockwithaticket]

Thank goodness for the TMO. It looked clearly not a try from the other angles too, but Barnes' question almost screwed Toulouse.

[Torquemada 1420]

Feck me this game has been ruined by dodgy officiating.
the French are being feck over, some may say yet again.

In the week, Mola tried to suck up to Barnes by shouting what a great ref he was

[JM2K6]

Feck me this game has been ruined by dodgy officiating.
the French are being feck over, some may say yet again.

In the week, Mola tried to suck up to Barnes by shouting what a great ref he was

Just so we're clear, you know C69 is deliberately baiting you, yeah?

[Torquemada 1420]

FM Ntamack, what was the point of that kick?

[GogLais]

I also think that Ireland was ready-made for pro rugby. The provincial rivalry was already there, there was buy-in from the fans at that level from the off and they didn't have the drain of football.

At least that what it looked like from here.

Ok, I’m not from South Wales so I don’t have the close connection with a local team but the regions have been around for twenty years now.

[Torquemada 1420]

Feck me this game has been ruined by dodgy officiating.
the French are being feck over, some may say yet again.

In the week, Mola tried to suck up to Barnes by shouting what a great ref he was

Just so we're clear, you know C69 is deliberately baiting you, yeah?

Water off the proverbial duck.

Arnold has had hands likes tits so far.

[Torquemada 1420]

32 mins and 1st pen to Toulouse? Not quite up to Owen's record of 70+ minutes in favour of an Irish team.

[Torquemada 1420]

Toulouse score despite Graou doing just about everything wrong at every phase in the build up!