2023 U20 world cup l'officielle

[PCPhil]

Funny hearing ref saying don't kick it. Wish the English scrummie had listened.

[petej]

The problem with subs in rugby is it encourages massive fat lumps who would become liabilities over a full 80.

[Margin__Walker]

Jesus this ref. You can't play the 9 like that

Fair play, France the better team and deserve to be in the final, but some of these calls.

[PCPhil]

should be a good final though. Might be a bit hackneyed but looks like the 2 countries with the best set ups producing the best young players. Funny that.

[OomStruisbaai]

Hugo Reus sound very afrikaans.

[petej]

Should get Timo on for Jegou who has been anonymous. Eng done a perfect job in nullifying Tuilagi who really looks more like an 8 against decent oppos than a lock.

Tuilagi should be told to go away and get in shape. You would be better with a real lock.

You are much better with a real lock.

[Torquemada 1420]

TFFT. Nobody outside their own camp will be unhappy to see these gobby, niggly English c**ts going out.

[Torquemada 1420]

Should get Timo on for Jegou who has been anonymous. Eng done a perfect job in nullifying Tuilagi who really looks more like an 8 against decent oppos than a lock.

Tuilagi should be told to go away and get in shape. You would be better with a real lock.

You are much better with a real lock.

I agree. Nouchi is a lock. Don't know why he was moved to flank after the 6N.

[JM2K6]

Cleaves <3

[JM2K6]

Very tight on the touchline there

[JM2K6]

Lmao this ref, why not just let them pull him straight down when he's in the air at the lineout, great way to end it.

England completely outperformed expectations for this tournament, so can't complain too much. A huge step up from recent 6N showings.

[Torquemada 1420]

[*]

Very tight on the touchline there

Out. Pity. Was a nice move again mixing fwds and backs.

Not sure why that challenge on Timo wasn't checked. Looked like contact to head.

[Torquemada 1420]

That's FIFTY you yappy c**ts.

[OomStruisbaai]

That's FIFTY you yappy c**ts.

[Kiwias]

What's with NZ in this tournament, just not very good squad or not much commitment to the age group in general?

Can't comment on their commitment but it really was men v boys when they came up against France. Playing with 14 men eventually told against Aus.

There were some outstanding tries and great play in the match vs Aus, by both sides.

[Torquemada 1420]

This is done. I missed the first half but sounded like we gave them a huge scare. Losing the physical battle this half though, which is not really a surprise given the sheer size of these guys, and France are making good decisions with the ball and running some good lines.

Harris has been so frustrating to watch whenever I've seen him play.

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

[Torquemada 1420]

I don't think the half backs are the main problem.

Nope. That has not helped but like I said, these conditions suit Eng. Fra's interpassing game is seriously floundering.

How so? England has some pretty slick hands in the first try.

Apologies. Missed this.

In answer, one swallow does not a Summer make. In 2 successive comps (6N and this), that kind of play has been a rarity from Eng whereas it's the norm for Fra. Further, that includes the Fre fwds whereas Eng fwd play has been all abut brute force.

[JM2K6]

This is done. I missed the first half but sounded like we gave them a huge scare. Losing the physical battle this half though, which is not really a surprise given the sheer size of these guys, and France are making good decisions with the ball and running some good lines.

Harris has been so frustrating to watch whenever I've seen him play.

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

In much the same way that... when you remove Atonio most French players are bigger than their counterparts? It's not just the pack, either.

And it shows on the field. Like it showed yesterday. It is what it is, and player weights are practically creative writing, so it's not like we can argue over pure data. If the roles were reversed I'd be thrilled with the physical disparity, because power is everything in rugby.

[Torquemada 1420]

This is done. I missed the first half but sounded like we gave them a huge scare. Losing the physical battle this half though, which is not really a surprise given the sheer size of these guys, and France are making good decisions with the ball and running some good lines.

Harris has been so frustrating to watch whenever I've seen him play.

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

In much the same way that... when you remove Atonio most French players are bigger than their counterparts? It's not just the pack, either.

And it shows on the field. Like it showed yesterday. It is what it is, and player weights are practically creative writing, so it's not like we can argue over pure data. If the roles were reversed I'd be thrilled with the physical disparity, because power is everything in rugby.

Not sure I follow that. IIRC (accepting that all these stats are probably wrong), the Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre. Take out Tuiliagi and the differences were even more marked.

That's true at seniors too (and has been for a very long time despite the hackneyed myths purveyed by Eng speaking commentators). Atonio (when he starts) and Willemse are lumps but the backrows are pretty light/mobile: no equivalent of Billy Vunipola's mass probably since Picamoles. Usually, Fra has started with a pack lighter than most key opponents.

There is something I guess in the backs
- Dupont isn't big but is a freak.
- Ntamack is big guy for a FH although I'd question just how useful that is.
- Danty is a lump but most sides employ one at 12 anyway.
- Fickou and Penaud are big guys.Penaud definitely out of the norm for a wing. Time makes comparisons difficult but I think had he played in Lomu's era, he'd have been talked of in the same vein.
- Villiere is tiny and a freak at least as much so as Dupont although his sick absences have seen Dumortier in who is more like Penaud. Even Thomas is a much bigger guy than many suspect.
- Ramos isn't at all big but is another who is surprisingly strong.

So, ironically, Fra's power advantage is really in the backs. That is magnified by the happy stance that other than Danty (and the hapless Ntamack........), they all possess some other weapons from: pace, tackling, turnovers, kicking. Power (which isn't a guarantee with size) is too much in rugby**. What we are seeing with these last 3 Fre U20 RWC sides is pace and handling to go with it. I wasn't kidding earlier in the comp when I said they passed better than most of the NZ backs and that Timo was faster than anyone on the NZ side bar maybe Tangitau.

**Hence why I think SA are quite capable of simply steam rollering Fra and everyone else later this year.

[JM2K6]

Hilarious. The same old "monster Fre pack" nonsense trotted out again. The Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre (and it told in the scrums early on) and that discrepancy was even wider when you consider how Tuilagi distorted their average weight (in much the same way as Atonio does it for the seniors),

In much the same way that... when you remove Atonio most French players are bigger than their counterparts? It's not just the pack, either.

And it shows on the field. Like it showed yesterday. It is what it is, and player weights are practically creative writing, so it's not like we can argue over pure data. If the roles were reversed I'd be thrilled with the physical disparity, because power is everything in rugby.

Not sure I follow that. IIRC (accepting that all these stats are probably wrong), the Eng pack was significantly heavier than the Fre. Take out Tuiliagi and the differences were even more marked.

That's true at seniors too (and has been for a very long time despite the hackneyed myths purveyed by Eng speaking commentators). Atonio (when he starts) and Willemse are lumps but the backrows are pretty light/mobile: no equivalent of Billy Vunipola's mass probably since Picamoles. Usually, Fra has started with a pack lighter than most key opponents.

There is something I guess in the backs
- Dupont isn't big but is a freak.
- Ntamack is big guy for a FH although I'd question just how useful that is.
- Danty is a lump but most sides employ one at 12 anyway.
- Fickou and Penaud are big guys.Penaud definitely out of the norm for a wing. Time makes comparisons difficult but I think had he played in Lomu's era, he'd have been talked of in the same vein.
- Villiere is tiny and a freak at least as much so as Dupont although his sick absences have seen Dumortier in who is more like Penaud. Even Thomas is a much bigger guy than many suspect.
- Ramos isn't at all big but is another who is surprisingly strong.

So, ironically, Fra's power advantage is really in the backs. That is magnified by the happy stance that other than Danty (and the hapless Ntamack........), they all possess some other weapons from: pace, tackling, turnovers, kicking. Power (which isn't a guarantee with size) is too much in rugby**. What we are seeing with these last 3 Fre U20 RWC sides is pace and handling to go with it. I wasn't kidding earlier in the comp when I said they passed better than most of the NZ backs and that Timo was faster than anyone on the NZ side bar maybe Tangitau.

**Hence why I think SA are quite capable of simply steam rollering Fra and everyone else later this year.

I believe I am correct in saying that Danty is the biggest back in the 6N by some way. And yes, my point is more than just about the pack, but I'm not on board with the idea that the French pack is only big because of a couple of players. I will say the last time this got discussed with a claim that (for example) Aldritt was one of the smaller back rowers in the 6N, I pointed out he's a real unit and was comfortably one of the largest 8s in the tournament. He plays like it, too - mobile for sure, but also very, very physical in a way that smaller 8s just can't bring. Instead of repeating all that discussion you and I had I'll just link you to it: https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.ph ... tt#p198947 so you can see where I'm coming from wrt the senior French side and what I'm basing it on.

Anyway, I'm on much less solid ground when it comes to the U20s because I only watched half of the England/France game and was struck by the difference in size and physicality. This will have been influenced by the substitutes as well. It wasn't just Tuilagi. However I will not claim great knowledge of the U20s on either side and don't have as much of a dog in the fight.

[Torquemada 1420]

I believe I am correct in saying that Danty is the biggest back in the 6N by some way. And yes, my point is more than just about the pack, but I'm not on board with the idea that the French pack is only big because of a couple of players. I will say the last time this got discussed with a claim that (for example) Aldritt was one of the smaller back rowers in the 6N, I pointed out he's a real unit and was comfortably one of the largest 8s in the tournament. He plays like it, too - mobile for sure, but also very, very physical in a way that smaller 8s just can't bring. Instead of repeating all that discussion you and I had I'll just link you to it: https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.ph ... tt#p198947 so you can see where I'm coming from wrt the senior French side and what I'm basing it on.

Anyway, I'm on much less solid ground when it comes to the U20s because I only watched half of the England/France game and was struck by the difference in size and physicality. This will have been influenced by the substitutes as well. It wasn't just Tuilagi. However I will not claim great knowledge of the U20s on either side and don't have as much of a dog in the fight.

I can believe that re Danty.
This would be affirmation bias but, for example,
https://www.ruck.co.uk/ranked-the-super ... round-one/
(funny how deceptive things can be: I'd never have had Hill down as a full sized troll).

As you say, journo stats for player weights can probably taken with a pinch of salt. If I had hours on my hands, I might have gone to the Union sites just to see what their stats had for the seniors.

Re the U20s
- as per posts, Eng starting pack was much heavier
- I don't have the impression the backs in this Fre lot were large. A quick glance at some of the key ones this comp and in the 6N

> Depoortere : 87kg
> Paul Costes 85kg
> Bielle-Biarrey (now with seniors) : 79kg
> Mael Moustin: 90kg
> Theo Attisogbe (whom I'd have incorrectly guessed as the largest!): 79kg
> Mathis Ferte is a midget (as is Carbonneau: it must be a Brive thing which is why they went down) and must weigh less than I do
> Emilien Gailleton (now with seniors) : 89kg
> Baptiste Jauneau: 81kg


Compare that with your Quins express merchant Cleaves who is touted at 95kg.

[Sards]

Paul de Villiers the only Saffer worth a mention. The rest are kak. White dog shite.

It's about time he did something.

And I am sorry but his decision making was Kak. That's what cost the game. I wanted to poesklap him at times

[OomStruisbaai]

Paul de Villiers the only Saffer worth a mention. The rest are kak. White dog shite.

It's about time he did something.

And I am sorry but his decision making was Kak. That's what cost the game. I wanted to poesklap him at times

Sards this years u20s wasnt good. Our problem (SH) however is deeper then this team. The coach have this group only for two weeks to prepare and they are playing against the NH teams who played together now for a year. Many of Italy and Ireland u20s played in the URC.

[Raggs]

I believe I am correct in saying that Danty is the biggest back in the 6N by some way. And yes, my point is more than just about the pack, but I'm not on board with the idea that the French pack is only big because of a couple of players. I will say the last time this got discussed with a claim that (for example) Aldritt was one of the smaller back rowers in the 6N, I pointed out he's a real unit and was comfortably one of the largest 8s in the tournament. He plays like it, too - mobile for sure, but also very, very physical in a way that smaller 8s just can't bring. Instead of repeating all that discussion you and I had I'll just link you to it: https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.ph ... tt#p198947 so you can see where I'm coming from wrt the senior French side and what I'm basing it on.

Anyway, I'm on much less solid ground when it comes to the U20s because I only watched half of the England/France game and was struck by the difference in size and physicality. This will have been influenced by the substitutes as well. It wasn't just Tuilagi. However I will not claim great knowledge of the U20s on either side and don't have as much of a dog in the fight.

I can believe that re Danty.
This would be affirmation bias but, for example,
https://www.ruck.co.uk/ranked-the-super ... round-one/
(funny how deceptive things can be: I'd never have had Hill down as a full sized troll).

As you say, journo stats for player weights can probably taken with a pinch of salt. If I had hours on my hands, I might have gone to the Union sites just to see what their stats had for the seniors.

Re the U20s
- as per posts, Eng starting pack was much heavier
- I don't have the impression the backs in this Fre lot were large. A quick glance at some of the key ones this comp and in the 6N

> Depoortere : 87kg
> Paul Costes 85kg
> Bielle-Biarrey (now with seniors) : 79kg
> Mael Moustin: 90kg
> Theo Attisogbe (whom I'd have incorrectly guessed as the largest!): 79kg
> Mathis Ferte is a midget (as is Carbonneau: it must be a Brive thing which is why they went down) and must weigh less than I do
> Emilien Gailleton (now with seniors) : 89kg
> Baptiste Jauneau: 81kg


Compare that with your Quins express merchant Cleaves who is touted at 95kg.

The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

[Torquemada 1420]

The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

I'm not in disagreement but remember this debate has repeatedly arisen because I get annoyed every time Anglo commentators trot out the lazy line (excuse) of "monster Fre packs" when, according to the data available to us, that has not been true for more than a decade. At best then, we don't know what the data is (or the likes of you and I believe it to be unreliable). Regardless, the commentators are stereotyping and obviously can't be arsed to look at the numbers they are presenting us on their own screens or dig deeper and question those numbers.

[Raggs]

The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

I'm not in disagreement but remember this debate has repeatedly arisen because I get annoyed every time Anglo commentators trot out the lazy line (excuse) of "monster Fre packs" when, according to the data available to us, that has not been true for more than a decade. At best then, we don't know what the data is (or the likes of you and I believe it to be unreliable). Regardless, the commentators are stereotyping and obviously can't be arsed to look at the numbers they are presenting us on their own screens or dig deeper and question those numbers.

When I hear monstrous pack, I tend to think more in terms of carrying ability, and scrummaging power, rather than sheer weight. Plenty of your players are absolute units when it comes to smashing it up effectively. I said on twitter that your u20s seem similar to the seniors, once they get a line break with a good carry, players just flood through in support and tend to turn the break into either massive meters gained, or a try. Really effective support play. NZ had a phase of similar play a while back, where after getting the initial linebreak, they were unstoppable due to the masses of support on hand.

England for instance, seem to have some monstrous carriers in the pack, but we fail to support the linebreaks effectively most the time, and end up getting turned over. We're so busy trying to play fast and wide, that we don't support the actual fast bit of the play, and then when it does come off, we kick it away anyway :(.

[Torquemada 1420]

The weights they give are a nonsense though in my mind. Sale Sharks have Hill down at 112kg. Personally, I really struggle to believe that someone who's 201cm, in a physical position and with a decent size frame, is only 112kg. Your telling me he's lost 20kg?

Then the claim that CJ stander is the heaviest guy who played for ireland in 2021? Porter and Furlong must be heavier than him, sorry.

It's like in 2019, when apparently SA were down as being lighter than literally everyone. When you're playing 3 players over 2m tall in a pack, and then the likes of Vermuelan, there's no way that's the case.

I'm not in disagreement but remember this debate has repeatedly arisen because I get annoyed every time Anglo commentators trot out the lazy line (excuse) of "monster Fre packs" when, according to the data available to us, that has not been true for more than a decade. At best then, we don't know what the data is (or the likes of you and I believe it to be unreliable). Regardless, the commentators are stereotyping and obviously can't be arsed to look at the numbers they are presenting us on their own screens or dig deeper and question those numbers.

When I hear monstrous pack, I tend to think more in terms of carrying ability, and scrummaging power, rather than sheer weight. Plenty of your players are absolute units when it comes to smashing it up effectively. I said on twitter that your u20s seem similar to the seniors, once they get a line break with a good carry, players just flood through in support and tend to turn the break into either massive meters gained, or a try. Really effective support play. NZ had a phase of similar play a while back, where after getting the initial linebreak, they were unstoppable due to the masses of support on hand.

England for instance, seem to have some monstrous carriers in the pack, but we fail to support the linebreaks effectively most the time, and end up getting turned over. We're so busy trying to play fast and wide, that we don't support the actual fast bit of the play, and then when it does come off, we kick it away anyway :(.

You are being rational. The commentators are clearly referring to size. They use words like "monster" (as opposed to monstrous: a subtle but important diff), "huge", "giant" etc. The funny bit is their continued presumption that the way to to beat Fre teams is "move them around" and "tire them out". The reality is under Galthie/Edwards, the Fre fitness issue is fading and in some instances like LaR (...it was Leinster who faded), ROG has them fitter than many other European teams. Anyway, the nonsense of infinite subs renders tiring the lardies out meaningless.

[Torquemada 1420]

La composition du XV de France U20 : 15. Ferté ; 14. Drouet, 13. Depoortère, 12. Costes, 11. Attissogbé ; 10. Reus, 9. Jauneau ; 7. Jegou, 8. Gazzotti, 6. Nouchi (cap.) ; 5. Tuilagi, 4. Auradou ; 3. Affane, 2. Jouvin, 1. Penverne.

Les remplaçants : 16. Lacombre, 17. Julien, 18. Duchene, 19. Liufau, 20. Castro-Ferreira, 21. Carbonneau, 22. Mathiron, 23. Mondinat.

La composition de l'Irlande : 15. McErlean ; 14. Osborne, 13. Gavin, 12. Devine, 11. Nicholson ; 10. Prendergast, 9. Gunne ; 8. Gleeson, 7.Quinn, 6. McNabney ; 5. O'Tighearnaigh, 4. Mangan ; 3. Foxe, 2. G. McCarthy (cap), 1. P. McCarthy.

Les remplaçants : 16. Clein, 17. Hadden, 18. Barrett, 19. Irvine, 20. O'Connell, 21. Cawley, 22. Lynch, 23. Berman.
L'arbitre :

M. Schneider (Argentine) officiera pour cette finale. Il avait notamment arbitré les Français lors de leur victoire face à la Nouvelle-Zélande.

[Tichtheid]

They use words like "monster" (as opposed to monstrous: a subtle but important diff), "huge", "giant" etc.

Torq, are you French French or French Something Else?

I only ask because that shows a very strong understanding of a second language.

[Kiwias]

Italy vs Japan

[OomStruisbaai]

I am in Paarl today , moved all the games to Athlone and Stellenbosch. Bliksems.

[C69]

Actually the YouTube thing won't work in Spain. Shite. Vipbox I suppose

S4C ON IPLAYER?
VPN

[Torquemada 1420]

They use words like "monster" (as opposed to monstrous: a subtle but important diff), "huge", "giant" etc.

Torq, are you French French or French Something Else?

I only ask because that shows a very strong understanding of a second language.

French is mother's side. Having been in Eng since the 70s, I've gone native.

[PCPhil]

Wales Aus game is on S4C and even they cant get a decent stream

[C69]

Appalling Welsh defence

Try to yellows

[Torquemada 1420]

Wales Aus game is on S4C and even they cant get a decent stream

https://tm.fbstream.tv/live/stream/wale ... -u20-fb-1/

[C69]

The young OZ prop looks like the most Aussie of people.
Yellow hair terrible mustache and a pathetic mullet

[Deepsouth]

This Welsh team

[C69]

This Welsh team

They have been beaten like a ginger step child

[Torquemada 1420]

This Welsh team

Welsh rugby is in a very, very dark hole.