The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Blackmac]

This made me giggle

Just remember that you're a hypocritical cunt the next time you start bitching about any perceived advantage the Irish , because you lot just got an absolute gift !

We've all to a man criticised the act and the outcome, which is something you will rarely see from most of the Irish.

[clydecloggie]

Being devil's advocate, I could maybe (squints hard) see that the contact was not at full pelt, included an effort to wrap arms rather than a pure shoulder barge, and ended with both players on their feet over the ruck suggesting a relatively weak impact.

Effectively two weeks in the bin is still an incredibly lenient punishment for a player who has a previous ban for the exact same thing.

Good to see us upstanding Scots not forgetting our superior ethics and to a man saying the outcome is wrong despite the clear benefit to our team. Moral winners of Group B already, and the start of the competition is still a month away. Eat that with your tatties and biltong, green teams.

[Biffer]

Being devil's advocate, I could maybe (squints hard) see that the contact was not at full pelt, included an effort to wrap arms rather than a pure shoulder barge, and ended with both players on their feet over the ruck suggesting a relatively weak impact.

Effectively two weeks in the bin is still an incredibly lenient punishment for a player who has a previous ban for the exact same thing.

Good to see us upstanding Scots not forgetting our superior ethics and to a man saying the outcome is wrong despite the clear benefit to our team. Moral winners of Group B already, and the start of the competition is still a month away. Eat that with your tatties and biltong, green teams.

To be fair, being moral winners of a group that includes Ireland and South Africa isn't that high a bar.

[Wylie Coyote]

Scotland's men's team have just won gold at the youth Commonwealth Games 7s

Ya Bass

Also Ya Bass.

Lifts the gloom from our youth teams a bit

Managed to find the video - certainly looks like an away trip that needs to be added to the bucket list!

[dpedin]

If he can’t handle that type of pressure, he doesn’t deserve the shirt

Hendersons English partner in the Leicester 2nd row George Martin played for England against Wales on Saturday and he was massively underwhelming. I am not sure that being a Leicester regular is a guarantee for an international starting position. Martin seems to be to have a reputation that he barely deserves, he was outplayed by the Welsh pairing on Saturday. Whilst I believe Henderson is a better player than Martin I am not sure either are shoe-ins at international level yet although Henderson certainly has more potential.

I really fail to see how George Martin's performance for England in a warm up game is relevant to Cam Henderson being a big, athletic, and aggressive lock. If you want to critique my opinion of Henderson and his game, please do so highlighting his actual playing performances.

I'm fairly sure Henderson would start for Glasgow if he'd stayed and have more Scotland caps as a result. I'm also quite confident he'd start for Edinburgh these days because as said I think Skinner is 6/10 quality. Very good at getting around the pitch and calls a reliable lineout but lacks in my mind the impact of a good international lock in the contact.

I wasn't critiquing your opinion of Henderson, I think I actually suggested that he has potential to be the lock we need, what I was doing was suggesting that playing 2nd row for Leicester in the EPL isn't a reliable benchmark for deciding that 2nd row is a shoe in for international call up! I used Martin as an example of someone who has a great reputation in the EPL being outplayed by the Welsh 2nd row on Saturday. I think it is relevant to use the Martin case as an example of the big step up required between the EPL and international rugby against tier 1 teams. Reputations and being big, athletic and aggressive doesn't count for much if the player cant put in a performance on the pitch where everyone is big, athletic and aggressive. I can think of lots of players who were the next big thing who succeeded at league level but didn't have it at international level. Toonie has obviously decided that Henderson has potential and will likely become a regular Scotland player post RWC but at the moment he is behind the likes of Gray x 2, GC, Cummings and Skinner. I would agree with his assessment. I am less sure Martin will do the same for England!

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Being devil's advocate, I could maybe (squints hard) see that the contact was not at full pelt, included an effort to wrap arms rather than a pure shoulder barge, and ended with both players on their feet over the ruck suggesting a relatively weak impact.

Effectively two weeks in the bin is still an incredibly lenient punishment for a player who has a previous ban for the exact same thing.

Good to see us upstanding Scots not forgetting our superior ethics and to a man saying the outcome is wrong despite the clear benefit to our team. Moral winners of Group B already, and the start of the competition is still a month away. Eat that with your tatties and biltong, green teams.

Agree with all the Scots on the bored that he fully deserved the red card and ban, and that it's a very lenient sentence. A suspiciously convenient number of games off, much like Sexton's ban.

For once, the disciplinary committee might actually have been (almost) consistent: Juan Cruz Mallia was also given a 2 match ban for contacting the head of Grant Williams in the Arg vs SA game. Although Williams was knocked unconscious, ZF's collision with Bourgarit didn't even lead to an HIA. Mallia had a clean record while Fagerson clearly doesn't - maybe the previous record offset the difference in force/speed/danger?

[KingBlairhorn]

Hendersons English partner in the Leicester 2nd row George Martin played for England against Wales on Saturday and he was massively underwhelming. I am not sure that being a Leicester regular is a guarantee for an international starting position. Martin seems to be to have a reputation that he barely deserves, he was outplayed by the Welsh pairing on Saturday. Whilst I believe Henderson is a better player than Martin I am not sure either are shoe-ins at international level yet although Henderson certainly has more potential.

I really fail to see how George Martin's performance for England in a warm up game is relevant to Cam Henderson being a big, athletic, and aggressive lock. If you want to critique my opinion of Henderson and his game, please do so highlighting his actual playing performances.

I'm fairly sure Henderson would start for Glasgow if he'd stayed and have more Scotland caps as a result. I'm also quite confident he'd start for Edinburgh these days because as said I think Skinner is 6/10 quality. Very good at getting around the pitch and calls a reliable lineout but lacks in my mind the impact of a good international lock in the contact.

I wasn't critiquing your opinion of Henderson, I think I actually suggested that he has potential to be the lock we need, what I was doing was suggesting that playing 2nd row for Leicester in the EPL isn't a reliable benchmark for deciding that 2nd row is a shoe in for international call up! I used Martin as an example of someone who has a great reputation in the EPL being outplayed by the Welsh 2nd row on Saturday. I think it is relevant to use the Martin case as an example of the big step up required between the EPL and international rugby against tier 1 teams. Reputations and being big, athletic and aggressive doesn't count for much if the player cant put in a performance on the pitch where everyone is big, athletic and aggressive. I can think of lots of players who were the next big thing who succeeded at league level but didn't have it at international level. Toonie has obviously decided that Henderson has potential and will likely become a regular Scotland player post RWC but at the moment he is behind the likes of Gray x 2, GC, Cummings and Skinner. I would agree with his assessment. I am less sure Martin will do the same for England!

I made the exact same point further up so obviously agree with you. The Prem is a poor quality competition in which standing out does not sufficiently prove your credentials at international level. That's not to say that there are not many exceptional players in the competition but the original post that started this discussion said that it was surprising he wasn't picked as he looks good for Leicester. Looking good for Leicester is no longer enough.

[Slick]

Was out with the kids this morning and got chatting to one of the other dads who is a copper in Edinburgh. He was policing the game at Murrayfield last week and I joked that that must be an easy day.

Apparently not, he said it’s easily the worst job they get of it’s kind and all of them would much rather do football and actively try and get out of the rugby days.

He said it’s just stuffed with folk who have never been told “no” who routinely ignore anything they are asked to do and often become quite physical trying to get around them to go the way they want to go. Apparently footie fans know they score and just get on with it.

That was quite sobering, with no pun intended

[Jock42]

I'd like to jump on the Zander bandwagon. He's a lucky boy and I've no idea how that coaching incentive will drill common sense into him. Also makes me concerned that his discipline is going to let them down v SA/Ireland.

[Biffer]

Was out with the kids this morning and got chatting to one of the other dads who is a copper in Edinburgh. He was policing the game at Murrayfield last week and I joked that that must be an easy day.

Apparently not, he said it’s easily the worst job they get of it’s kind and all of them would much rather do football and actively try and get out of the rugby days.

He said it’s just stuffed with folk who have never been told “no” who routinely ignore anything they are asked to do and often become quite physical trying to get around them to go the way they want to go. Apparently footie fans know they score and just get on with it.

That was quite sobering, with no pun intended

Doesn't surprise me. Some right privileged fucks at Murrayfield.

[Simian]

Was out with the kids this morning and got chatting to one of the other dads who is a copper in Edinburgh. He was policing the game at Murrayfield last week and I joked that that must be an easy day.

Apparently not, he said it’s easily the worst job they get of it’s kind and all of them would much rather do football and actively try and get out of the rugby days.

He said it’s just stuffed with folk who have never been told “no” who routinely ignore anything they are asked to do and often become quite physical trying to get around them to go the way they want to go. Apparently footie fans know they score and just get on with it.

That was quite sobering, with no pun intended

Doesn't surprise me. Some right privileged fucks at Murrayfield.

Doesn’t surprise me either. I’ve heard similar from guys I know who policed the sevens when it was at scotstoun. The behaviour of fans then has really made it impossible for Glasgow (rugby) to expand there.

[LenCohen]

Oh aye those cosy football matches where funnels of fencing have to be set up outside the stadium so that opposing fans don't come into contact with each other.

[Simian]

Oh aye those cosy football matches where funnels of fencing have to be set up outside the stadium so that opposing fans don't come into contact with each other.

You’re drawing a false equivalency. The point isn’t about whether or not funnels are or aren’t needed in the different games. It’s that football fans will typically be funnelled and many rugby fans won’t

[Simian]

My pin t more generally was that this idea that football fans engage in antisocial behaviour and rugby fans don’t is total crap. And, at least in Glasgow, rugby fans past behaviour has really hurt the development of pro rugby.

[Slick]

Oh aye those cosy football matches where funnels of fencing have to be set up outside the stadium so that opposing fans don't come into contact with each other.

You’re drawing a false equivalency. The point isn’t about whether or not funnels are or aren’t needed in the different games. It’s that football fans will typically be funnelled and many rugby fans won’t

Pretty much exactly the point he made

[Biffer]

My pin t more generally was that this idea that football fans engage in antisocial behaviour and rugby fans don’t is total crap. And, at least in Glasgow, rugby fans past behaviour has really hurt the development of pro rugby.

They engage in different types of antisocial behaviour. One is considered more acceptable by the press.

[Simian]

My pin t more generally was that this idea that football fans engage in antisocial behaviour and rugby fans don’t is total crap. And, at least in Glasgow, rugby fans past behaviour has really hurt the development of pro rugby.

They engage in different types of antisocial behaviour. One is considered more acceptable by the press.

Exactly my point. Instead of saying we’re ‘better’ can we try to be good?

[Simian]

My pin t more generally was that this idea that football fans engage in antisocial behaviour and rugby fans don’t is total crap. And, at least in Glasgow, rugby fans past behaviour has really hurt the development of pro rugby.

They engage in different types of antisocial behaviour. One is considered more acceptable by the press.

Yes: and this difference is why folk like OTB and IW say it’s a posh game played by lawyers and doctors.

[Simian]

Oh aye those cosy football matches where funnels of fencing have to be set up outside the stadium so that opposing fans don't come into contact with each other.

You’re drawing a false equivalency. The point isn’t about whether or not funnels are or aren’t needed in the different games. It’s that football fans will typically be funnelled and many rugby fans won’t

Pretty much exactly the point he made

Really? How so? My point was that fiolj at the football would get in their ‘funnel’. If they did That for rugby, folk wouldn’t? And they’d be pissy af about not getting in?

[Blackmac]

Was out with the kids this morning and got chatting to one of the other dads who is a copper in Edinburgh. He was policing the game at Murrayfield last week and I joked that that must be an easy day.

Apparently not, he said it’s easily the worst job they get of it’s kind and all of them would much rather do football and actively try and get out of the rugby days.

He said it’s just stuffed with folk who have never been told “no” who routinely ignore anything they are asked to do and often become quite physical trying to get around them to go the way they want to go. Apparently footie fans know they score and just get on with it.

That was quite sobering, with no pun intended

Doesn't surprise me. Some right privileged fucks at Murrayfield.

He is spot on though. Much the same as policing in more affluent areas. Full of arrogant pricks who think they have a god given right to behave any way they want.

I remember the first time I policed Murrayfield as a young cop, the event commander, who was a notorious hard nosed prick, decided that the canes attached to the flags were to be removed before people could get into the stadium as he considered them a potential weapon.

Our division was allocated controlling entry to the south stand and I remember standing at the turnstiles watching people buying the bloody things and thinking how ridiculous it was. Our Inspector thought the same and told us to ignore the order, which we did.

Just before the game started we left our posts and used to try and crowd into the entrance tunnels to watch the game. As Scotland scored their first points the south stand erupted in waving flags but there wasn't another flag to be seen in any other part of the stadium. The commander went batshit and each and every one of us was barred from policing the event again as if it was some sort of bloody privilege.

[SomersetJock]

After 24 hours to get over Zanders punishment I’ve decided I’m now happy with the outcome.

The pleasure I’ve gained from how pissed off some Irish fans are about it has outweighed how farcical I think it was

[Simian]

Who do we think are the four guys getting cut?

[I like neeps]

8

You’re drawing a false equivalency. The point isn’t about whether or not funnels are or aren’t needed in the different games. It’s that football fans will typically be funnelled and many rugby fans won’t

Pretty much exactly the point he made

Really? How so? My point was that fiolj at the football would get in their ‘funnel’. If they did That for rugby, folk wouldn’t? And they’d be pissy af about not getting in?

I've been in funnels twice with Aberdeen when at Ibrox but at every other stadium I've never been in one. I'd be pretty pissed off if it was funneled at murrayfield. What's the point? It's not going to kick off.

Not surprised to hear drunk wealthier folk on a piss up are rowdier than football fans. Rugby is expensive, an event, and more linked to booze than football nowadays. Most football matches are a non event.

[charltom]

Who do we think are the four guys getting cut?

Dobie, McInally*, Crosbie**, Sebastian***

* but could easily be Ashman or Cherry, even though they'd be my top two
** I'd keep him but suspect GT will keep Bayliss
*** or Walker; but does he stay in because he can play both sides?

Would these guys not travel as emergency back-up anyway, or is that not allowed?

[Big D]

Who do we think are the four guys getting cut?

Is it 4 or 5? Is Christie still with the squad?

Walker
Rambo
Watson (but it will be Crosbie or Bayliss)
Dobie

[Slick]

You’re drawing a false equivalency. The point isn’t about whether or not funnels are or aren’t needed in the different games. It’s that football fans will typically be funnelled and many rugby fans won’t

Pretty much exactly the point he made

Really? How so? My point was that fiolj at the football would get in their ‘funnel’. If they did That for rugby, folk wouldn’t? And they’d be pissy af about not getting in?

I’m agreeing with you. That’s what the guy said

[clydecloggie]

Who do we think are the four guys getting cut?

The two guys who will get injured in the next two matches + the two in whose position no injuries occurred out of Walker, McInally, Bayliss, Dobie.

[Simian]

Who do we think are the four guys getting cut?

Is it 4 or 5? Is Christie still with the squad?

Walker
Rambo
Watson (but it will be Crosbie or Bayliss)
Dobie

It’s four, I think (Bayliss replaced Christie, who had an arm injury).

That looks about right to me. I think it’s probably tight between Rambo and Ashman tho. I’m with too on the Watson v Crosbie/Bayliss call too.

[Simian]

Who do we think are the four guys getting cut?

The two guys who will get injured in the next two matches + the two in whose position no injuries occurred out of Walker, McInally, Bayliss, Dobie.

I certainly wouldn’t bet against that happening!

[Slick]

As an aside, saw Mark Watson at the Fringe last night and it was one of the best shows I’ve seen in years, highly recommend

[Tichtheid]

As an aside, saw Mark Watson at the Fringe last night and it was one of the best shows I’ve seen in years, highly recommend

Darge is funnier.

[Slick]

Full team it is then!

Edit: Actually no Darcy.

No room for Watson even on the bench is interesting.

[Simian]

Scotland team to play France in Summer Nations Series at Stade Geoffroy-Guichard, Saint Etienne on Saturday 12 August 2023, kick-off 8.05pm (UK time) – live on Prime Video.

15. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) 45 caps
14. Kyle Steyn (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps
13. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 37 caps
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) 17 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 29 caps

10. Finn Russell (Bath Rugby) – Vice-Captain – 70 caps
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 62 caps

1. Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 22 caps
2. George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 36 caps
3. WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 54 caps
4. Richie Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 74 caps
5. Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – Vice-captain – 63 caps
6. Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – Captain – 41 caps
7. Rory Darge (Glasgow Warriors) 9 caps
8. Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps

Replacements

16. Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) 48 caps
17. Rory Sutherland (unattached) 24 caps
18. Javan Sebastian (Edinburgh Rugby) 4 caps
19. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 27 caps
20. Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 26 caps
21. Josh Bayliss (Bath Rugby) 4 caps
22. George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 21 caps
23. Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps

[Tichtheid]

It's interesting that GT mentioned that Bayliss can play in the backline if necessary (he also said Dempsey can), that could well mean that Crosbie's goose is cooked. Graham and Fagerson jnr are obviously being rested. Kinghorn still covering 10

[KingBlairhorn]

I think Toonie is showing his hand here for the Ireland and SA games. With the exception of Darcy for Steyn that’s the 23. Kinghorn is the replacement 10 if required. Smith can also play wing if needed and Horne can play wing and (in case of emergency break glass) 10. The 6-2 split gives more forward grunt and the flexible backs give enough positional flexibility to muddle through.

Watson not making the cut I think, and it’s probably justified.

[KingBlairhorn]

I think Toonie is showing his hand here for the Ireland and SA games. With the exception of Darcy for Steyn that’s the 23. Kinghorn is the replacement 10 if required. Smith can also play wing if needed and Horne can play wing and (in case of emergency break glass) 10. The 6-2 split gives more forward grunt and the flexible backs give enough positional flexibility to muddle through.

Watson not making the cut I think, and it’s probably justified.

Forgot about White, if he’s fit he’ll start and of course Z Fagerson will come back in. Matt Fagerson *might* bench but I don’t think so, Skinner and Baylis offer that bit more flexibility. I’d personally rather Fagerson but there you go.

[Slick]

It's interesting that GT mentioned that Bayliss can play in the backline if necessary (he also said Dempsey can), that could well mean that Crosbie's goose is cooked. Graham and Fagerson jnr are obviously being rested. Kinghorn still covering 10

Good point, I'd missed Healy not being on the bench.

Just to be clear, did you mean "backline" or across the backrow?

[Tichtheid]

It's interesting that GT mentioned that Bayliss can play in the backline if necessary (he also said Dempsey can), that could well mean that Crosbie's goose is cooked. Graham and Fagerson jnr are obviously being rested. Kinghorn still covering 10

Good point, I'd missed Healy not being on the bench.

Just to be clear, did you mean "backline" or across the backrow?

Toonie said backline, it's a justification for the 6/2 split I suppose

[Big D]

Looks like Walker and Dobie will definitely be cut. Hooker and back row still potentially open to debate.

I'm not keen on the idea of Kinghorn covering 10 from 15 to be honest. He's the best 15 and should be playing there. He's at his fluent best at 15 and takes one of our best runners away from our wide options in game.

His goal kicking isn't good enough either and Horne might not be on the pitch to counter. Actually on that thought, he potentially should be kicking at goal on Saturday. He's not kicked in a game for months.

[Slick]

Looks like Walker and Dobie will definitely be cut. Hooker and back row still potentially open to debate.

I'm not keen on the idea of Kinghorn covering 10 from 15 to be honest. He's the best 15 and should be playing there. He's at his fluent best at 15 and takes one of our best runners away from our wide options in game.

His goal kicking isn't good enough either and Horne might not be on the pitch to counter. Actually on that thought, he potentially should be kicking at goal on Saturday. He's not kicked in a game for months.

I agree. He's been fucked around over the last two years but with Hogg retiring this is the opportunity to let him nail down a position. He seems like the type of player who needs a bit of love and security, and is our most naturally gifted player (yes I include Finn) so let him focus on that without all the noise of being considered a 10.