The Official English Rugby Thread

[Niegs]

This isn't confined to Eng. As per debate with J2M, my contention is that rugby players are so over coached, the vast majority are incapable of "heads up rugby" i.e. playing what's in front of them rather than too pre-ordained patterns. Even the keewees suffer from it: look at what happens when BB is at FH.

When I see Cipriani talking about this sort of thing on twitter, it makes me think the likes of him and Quade Cooper were just too maverick for the robots around them (yet would have been killer a generation before or with the likes of a Fiji).

I remember when people were calling Dillyn Leyds the next Quade when he was in HS... but seems the SA system not only beat that out of him, they stuck him in the back three to make sure he was never in a position to try it. (In fairness to SA, while I haven't watched a ton of schoolboy rugby there, they always seem to have skinny, smaller lads playing exciting rugby in the backs ... they just don't seem to get picked past school)

[Torquemada 1420]

This isn't confined to Eng. As per debate with J2M, my contention is that rugby players are so over coached, the vast majority are incapable of "heads up rugby" i.e. playing what's in front of them rather than too pre-ordained patterns. Even the keewees suffer from it: look at what happens when BB is at FH.

When I see Cipriani talking about this sort of thing on twitter, it makes me think the likes of him and Quade Cooper were just too maverick for the robots around them (yet would have been killer a generation before or with the likes of a Fiji).

I remember when people were calling Dillyn Leyds the next Quade when he was in HS... but seems the SA system not only beat that out of him, they stuck him in the back three to make sure he was never in a position to try it. (In fairness to SA, while I haven't watched a ton of schoolboy rugby there, they always seem to have skinny, smaller lads playing exciting rugby in the backs ... they just don't seem to get picked past school)

I think you are right. Maybe the maverick is as much the inability of the robots as it is the failure of the maverick to rein it in when needed.

[Raggs]

Cips ran in a very strict structure with fixed running lines though. He'd make options from it, but it was a long way from a simple free for all of creativity.

There's room for 2-3 very creative players in a team I reckon, any more than that and you risk losing the structure that they require to be able to make solid plays from the options available.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Stolen from the interweb but still a goodie.

During the lead up to the Rugby World Cup the English team visited a local orphanage. “It was heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope” said Joe, age 6.

[Niegs]

I think Bennett has worked with the England camp in the past (a regime or two back, perhaps).

[sockwithaticket]

Stolen from the interweb but still a goodie.

During the lead up to the Rugby World Cup the English team visited a local orphanage. “It was heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope” said Joe, age 6.

I think that joke is older than the fictional child it features.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Stolen from the interweb but still a goodie.

During the lead up to the Rugby World Cup the English team visited a local orphanage. “It was heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope” said Joe, age 6.

I think that joke is older than the fictional child it features.

I know but I couldn’t help it.

[JM2K6]

I think Bennett has worked with the England camp in the past (a regime or two back, perhaps).

Nah, they're just not doing it hard enough! etc

[Hal Jordan]

I see Jones has blamed poor England results on the RFU not producing good players.

He is more averse to accountability than your average Tory Minister.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I see Jones has blamed poor England results on the RFU not producing good players.

He is more averse to accountability than your average Tory Minister.

There is a point in this. But what practically does he think they should do, and if it's a simple solution why not resolve it in your interest when you were being paid a lot of money to manage the players spat out of said system?

Does he want more training days with England, less matches with clubs, more RFU control over clubs, a hugely expanded youth system, a change in domestic reffing, faster surfaces, games played in warmer/dryer months (including shifting the 6N to later in the season), more focus on searching for athletic/skills talent...? Some of that is going to kick off something of a civil war, a lot of that might be nice but where is the money coming from?

So yes it'd be nice if we had better players, but it's akin to saying to Eddie it'd be nice had your England side played (better) rugby and refusing to consider any of the difficulties he'd claim exist

[Paddington Bear]

England don’t produce tonnes of world class players, but an effective coach and a consistent side/selection can achieve a hell of a lot

[sockwithaticket]

We should also consider that Eddie's nebulous judgment as to whether a player is a test match animal or not doesn't mean an awful lot as regards their quality or suitability for test rugby. We can also look at his treatment of incredibly promising players like Marchant - in and out of the side, mostly on the bench and out of position - and question whether they were being given the opportunity to show that they're good enough.

[el capitan]

To be fair I don't think Eddie is wrong, per se. It does go beyond whatever the current national team set up is.

Youth development looks like it has declined compared to recent past, since they cut the funding and Ryan did a hatchet job on it.

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

The national team coach gets judged on his own performance. Jones was well past his sell by date and presided over scorched earth, whilst his replacement seems totally out of his depth and somehow managed to make things even worse. A competent coaching team could bring significant improvement with what's available to them. But the game needs comprehensive change from top to bottom, and the national team woes and useless coach shouldn't be used as a convenient scapegoat and shield against tackling that.

What you do, and how you do it, is another matter altogether.....

[SaintK]

To be fair I don't think Eddie is wrong, per se. It does go beyond whatever the current national team set up is.

Youth development looks like it has declined compared to recent past, since they cut the funding and Ryan did a hatchet job on it.

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

The national team coach gets judged on his own performance. Jones was well past his sell by date and presided over scorched earth, whilst his replacement seems totally out of his depth and somehow managed to make things even worse. A competent coaching team could bring significant improvement with what's available to them. But the game needs comprehensive change from top to bottom, and the national team woes and useless coach shouldn't be used as a convenient scapegoat and shield against tackling that.

What you do, and how you do it, is another matter altogether.....

Yep!!
Pretty good summary of where we are.
RFU also need a clear out at the top and certainly O'Shea should be shown the door.

[Margin__Walker]

Jonathan Fisher picks up a coaching gig with the Reds. Really good young coach and will be one to watch

[PCPhil]

England don’t produce tonnes of world class players, but an effective coach and a consistent side/selection can achieve a hell of a lot

Yes, we could maybe climb to 5th or 6th in the world occasionally.

[Ovals]

To be fair I don't think Eddie is wrong, per se. It does go beyond whatever the current national team set up is.

Youth development looks like it has declined compared to recent past, since they cut the funding and Ryan did a hatchet job on it.

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

The national team coach gets judged on his own performance. Jones was well past his sell by date and presided over scorched earth, whilst his replacement seems totally out of his depth and somehow managed to make things even worse. A competent coaching team could bring significant improvement with what's available to them. But the game needs comprehensive change from top to bottom, and the national team woes and useless coach shouldn't be used as a convenient scapegoat and shield against tackling that.

What you do, and how you do it, is another matter altogether.....

England were in the the top 2 U20s sides every year from 2013 to 2018 - We should have had a golden generation of talent at the National level over the last few years - and now.

[tc27]

To be fair I don't think Eddie is wrong, per se. It does go beyond whatever the current national team set up is.

Youth development looks like it has declined compared to recent past, since they cut the funding and Ryan did a hatchet job on it.

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

The national team coach gets judged on his own performance. Jones was well past his sell by date and presided over scorched earth, whilst his replacement seems totally out of his depth and somehow managed to make things even worse. A competent coaching team could bring significant improvement with what's available to them. But the game needs comprehensive change from top to bottom, and the national team woes and useless coach shouldn't be used as a convenient scapegoat and shield against tackling that.

What you do, and how you do it, is another matter altogether.....

I honestly think there is a very good England XV out there with the right coaches and gameplan

I think ironically it was EJs first 4 years before it all went to shit that proved this.

Also agree a decent England side selling out HQ allows the RFU to paper over the cracks and this is not a good thing.

[Brazil]

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

I don't entirely buy this, and think it puts too much emphasis on the "different level" theory of international rugby so beloved of spoofers like Eddie Jones. English teams may not win the European Cup but by and large there's always a few in the mix at the later stages. That they then inevitably lose to either La Rochelle or Toulouse, or whichever Irish team is dominant is true of all the other nations as well. The Premiership remains a tough competition that's very hard to win and in which there is competition throughout the whole division. Jones' excuse that the players are shit, to me just, looks like a cover for a bloke who didn't know how to handle the resources he had - players were repeatedly asked to play against the instincts that served them well week in week out and it fucked the national team. He never got over the 2019 final loss and kept trying a model that didn't work. What's galling is that Borthwick is repeating the mistake by insisting on the kicking dominant game and a forward game that the players he's selecting can't deliver. Whether he wakes up to that fact or just keeps insisting that the numbers can't lie remains to be seen.

Having talent spread thinly across so many teams doesn't help, and the damage that Dean Ryan evidently did to the youth pathway has clearly had a bad effect on the talent stream, but there's an awful lot that isn't the fault of structures or the system, and is simply coaches who are too dogmatic to change their ways because "kicking wins test rugby", and force it on players who are actually pretty good with ball in hand.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, the Prem compares pretty favourably to the URC over the last few seasons in terms of knock out representation. Even more so if you take Leinster out of the equation.

There's no shame in losing in the knockouts to the big French clubs and the collection of top players their millions of extra salary cap enable them to acquire.

The 'teams who kick most win' thing winds me up no end. it's such a dumb takeaway from that stat and shows the limitations of data focus above all else. I recall hearing that Borthwick was all about the data with Tiggers and I think you can maybe get away with that at domestic level, but players in the top tier international arena are just too good and too special to let you.

[Kawazaki]

Yeah, the Prem compares pretty favourably to the URC over the last few seasons in terms of knock out representation. Even more so if you take Leinster out of the equation.

There's no shame in losing in the knockouts to the big French clubs and the collection of top players their millions of extra salary cap enable them to acquire.

The 'teams who kick most win' thing winds me up no end. it's such a dumb takeaway from that stat and shows the limitations of data focus above all else. I recall hearing that Borthwick was all about the data with Tiggers and I think you can maybe get away with that at domestic level, but players in the top tier international arena are just too good and too special to let you.

If you ever want an example of how group-think kills innovation then look no further than Borthwick and the cabal of yes-men he has surrounded himself with. How the fuck Bill Sweeney has allowed all of this shite to happen on this watch and still get a 40% payrise for it will be written about in management fuckup MBAs for years.

[dpedin]

Yeah, the Prem compares pretty favourably to the URC over the last few seasons in terms of knock out representation. Even more so if you take Leinster out of the equation.

There's no shame in losing in the knockouts to the big French clubs and the collection of top players their millions of extra salary cap enable them to acquire.

The 'teams who kick most win' thing winds me up no end. it's such a dumb takeaway from that stat and shows the limitations of data focus above all else. I recall hearing that Borthwick was all about the data with Tiggers and I think you can maybe get away with that at domestic level, but players in the top tier international arena are just too good and too special to let you.

If you ever want an example of how group-think kills innovation then look no further than Borthwick and the cabal of yes-men he has surrounded himself with. How the fuck Bill Sweeney has allowed all of this shite to happen on this watch and still get a 40% payrise for it will be written about in management fuckup MBAs for years.

England have lots of really good young players and a cohort of experienced test players that should allow them to put together a strong international team. However poor coaching teams who persist in playing outdated rugby, select guys past their best and fail to develop young players in their best positions has meant a slow and sad demise of the English rugby team. The current team look to have lost all confidence in themselves and in the coaches. Borthwick looks out of his depth and I agree the group think seems to have prevented any challenge or recognition that the current plans aint working. A major reset is needed post RWC, it's too late to change anything now.

[Niegs]

To be fair I don't think Eddie is wrong, per se. It does go beyond whatever the current national team set up is.

Youth development looks like it has declined compared to recent past, since they cut the funding and Ryan did a hatchet job on it.

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

The national team coach gets judged on his own performance. Jones was well past his sell by date and presided over scorched earth, whilst his replacement seems totally out of his depth and somehow managed to make things even worse. A competent coaching team could bring significant improvement with what's available to them. But the game needs comprehensive change from top to bottom, and the national team woes and useless coach shouldn't be used as a convenient scapegoat and shield against tackling that.

What you do, and how you do it, is another matter altogether.....

England were in the the top 2 U20s sides every year from 2013 to 2018 - We should have had a golden generation of talent at the National level over the last few years - and now.

It really does suggest Ryan's reign of terror has hurt England with respect to talent ID and development, but I also wonder what's going on at clubs? Are Academies doing more gym / set piece / systems work than truly developing skills/awareness? If not the case, maybe senior sides are discouraging going off script / creativity and not giving the young lads enough chances to develop at the next level?

I haven't watched much schoolboy rugby recently, but the quality always looked good over the years in both the posh schools and the DPP programs. Good range of athletes, too. Lots of people responding to the tweet that quoted Eddie kept on about lack of comprehensive school representation/development, but at least one responded that Ireland is mostly private-school lads too, smaller player pool.

I'm no fan of Eddie, who irked me with selections and strategy, but a national setup is often limited by the quality of environment those players come from.

[JM2K6]

To be fair I don't think Eddie is wrong, per se. It does go beyond whatever the current national team set up is.

Youth development looks like it has declined compared to recent past, since they cut the funding and Ryan did a hatchet job on it.

Some won't like me saying it, but I don't think the domestic setup is working that well either, certainly in terms of preparing players for the top international level. In some positions we continually struggle to develop options, whilst players that come in seem ill equipped for the rigours/standards/consistencies/intensity demanded at this level, before we even get to the physical or technical skill attributes. Certainly for me if you compare that against other nations.

The national team coach gets judged on his own performance. Jones was well past his sell by date and presided over scorched earth, whilst his replacement seems totally out of his depth and somehow managed to make things even worse. A competent coaching team could bring significant improvement with what's available to them. But the game needs comprehensive change from top to bottom, and the national team woes and useless coach shouldn't be used as a convenient scapegoat and shield against tackling that.

What you do, and how you do it, is another matter altogether.....

England were in the the top 2 U20s sides every year from 2013 to 2018 - We should have had a golden generation of talent at the National level over the last few years - and now.

It really does suggest Ryan's reign of terror has hurt England with respect to talent ID and development, but I also wonder what's going on at clubs? Are Academies doing more gym / set piece / systems work than truly developing skills/awareness? If not the case, maybe senior sides are discouraging going off script / creativity and not giving the young lads enough chances to develop at the next level?

I haven't watched much schoolboy rugby recently, but the quality always looked good over the years in both the posh schools and the DPP programs. Good range of athletes, too. Lots of people responding to the tweet that quoted Eddie kept on about lack of comprehensive school representation/development, but at least one responded that Ireland is mostly private-school lads too, smaller player pool.

I'm no fan of Eddie, who irked me with selections and strategy, but a national setup is often limited by the quality of environment those players come from.

Think you've ignored a lot of what's being said here. English rugby has, to my eye, never had a more consistent flow of excellent young players breaking into Premiership rugby. And that flow of players has largely been coached and encouraged to play a fast skills-based game where risks are taken and rewards duly reaped. Does that lose to teams with absolute behemoths at club level, or sides that are basically international teams masquerading as club sides? Yes. Do England have ready access to those behemoths? No. So we should stop fucking pretending that we do and work out what these very talented players are best at and what gets the best out of them, and do that instead.

Spoiler: it's also a lot more fun for the players to be involved in. Enthusiastic rugby players play good rugby.

[lemonhead]

Yeah, the Prem compares pretty favourably to the URC over the last few seasons in terms of knock out representation. Even more so if you take Leinster out of the equation.

There's no shame in losing in the knockouts to the big French clubs and the collection of top players their millions of extra salary cap enable them to acquire.

The 'teams who kick most win' thing winds me up no end. it's such a dumb takeaway from that stat and shows the limitations of data focus above all else. I recall hearing that Borthwick was all about the data with Tiggers and I think you can maybe get away with that at domestic level, but players in the top tier international arena are just too good and too special to let you.

If you ever want an example of how group-think kills innovation then look no further than Borthwick and the cabal of yes-men he has surrounded himself with. How the fuck Bill Sweeney has allowed all of this shite to happen on this watch and still get a 40% payrise for it will be written about in management fuckup MBAs for years.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -world-cup

Timeline and pretty grim reading in places

[SaintK]

Yeah, the Prem compares pretty favourably to the URC over the last few seasons in terms of knock out representation. Even more so if you take Leinster out of the equation.

There's no shame in losing in the knockouts to the big French clubs and the collection of top players their millions of extra salary cap enable them to acquire.

The 'teams who kick most win' thing winds me up no end. it's such a dumb takeaway from that stat and shows the limitations of data focus above all else. I recall hearing that Borthwick was all about the data with Tiggers and I think you can maybe get away with that at domestic level, but players in the top tier international arena are just too good and too special to let you.

If you ever want an example of how group-think kills innovation then look no further than Borthwick and the cabal of yes-men he has surrounded himself with. How the fuck Bill Sweeney has allowed all of this shite to happen on this watch and still get a 40% payrise for it will be written about in management fuckup MBAs for years.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -world-cup

Timeline and pretty grim reading in places

Sweeney would have been forced out months ago if the RFU were listed business!

The RFU council’s refusal to allow him to appoint an independent adviser to oversee governance reforms was tantamount to a show of no confidence and he is feeling the heat for the timing of his decision to sack Jones given results ever since. Supporters are making their feelings clear – it is unprecedented for so many seats to be empty as was the case against Fiji – and if England fail to advance from their pool in France there will be no alternative but to fall on his sword. It would make sense, wouldn’t it?

[JM2K6]

Yeah, the Prem compares pretty favourably to the URC over the last few seasons in terms of knock out representation. Even more so if you take Leinster out of the equation.

There's no shame in losing in the knockouts to the big French clubs and the collection of top players their millions of extra salary cap enable them to acquire.

The 'teams who kick most win' thing winds me up no end. it's such a dumb takeaway from that stat and shows the limitations of data focus above all else. I recall hearing that Borthwick was all about the data with Tiggers and I think you can maybe get away with that at domestic level, but players in the top tier international arena are just too good and too special to let you.

If you ever want an example of how group-think kills innovation then look no further than Borthwick and the cabal of yes-men he has surrounded himself with. How the fuck Bill Sweeney has allowed all of this shite to happen on this watch and still get a 40% payrise for it will be written about in management fuckup MBAs for years.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -world-cup

Timeline and pretty grim reading in places

Read that last night. It's the most clear headed review of the situation I've seen so far.

[Niegs]

Mental number of call-ups here!

Emboldened, too, proclaiming a “New England” after victories over the USA and Canada in July 2021 with a youthful squad, captained by Lewis Ludlow who won his first two caps and was not picked again. Indeed by now, Premiership clubs had grown tired of Jones’s capricious ways. Directors of rugby were at the mercy of his selectorial whims – in his seven years he picked almost 200 players in training squads – and their public relief at Borthwick’s appointment said everything about how relations had soured. One director of rugby was known to be furious at having to repeatedly pick up the pieces whenever Jones selected one of his youngsters only to cast them off within weeks.

[Sinkers]

And yet the immediate reaction would be that he made so few changes to the actual competition squad, kept a lot of dross and rejected a lot of young talent after a few days stint with the training squad.

[sockwithaticket]

Every single training squad had some fresh picks you'd never see again. A supreme waste of time.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Every single training squad had some fresh picks you'd never see again. A supreme waste of time.

It felt more like trying to actively damage their prospects.

If Borthwick can get England to merely play tedious, unsuccessful rugby without ruining players that will be a step up.

[JM2K6]

Lawes missed the cap ceremony because he was "sore" from the training the day before.

What the fuck are they doing?

[sockwithaticket]

Flogging the players is something that's easy and tangible to do. When in doubt, work hard. Then work even harder. Cue mutual back slapping about how no other team can possibly be working harder than us. Don't worry about coming up with a game plan that's even remotely challenging because Hard Work™ will see you through.

Of course it could also be that in Lawes case specifically we're just seeing another sign that his body is barely holding itself together and he's probably going to get broken again at some point in the pool stages.

[Cartman]

Was watching old games this weekend and one was from 2010, England vs ABs
Youngs played, so did Lawes and Cole (with hair!)
Was weird to see them in such an old game, although Sam Whitelock also played, but in his case he has been, and still is, consistently at top of the tree in his position
Those English players not so much

[Hal Jordan]

Who were the wingers?

[Cartman]

Ashton and Cueto

[Hal Jordan]

Ashton and Cueto

Cueto. Fucking hell.

What is it with England hanging on to wingers who are years past their sell.by date?

Treat them like NFL running backs. Flog the shit out of them.for 4-7 years, then dump them for a new one the second that age or injury have any impact at all.

[Gumboot]

Cipriani was a pea-hearted flake of a player. A prodigious attacking talent, sure, but I lost all respect for him after his 2011-12 stint with the Rebels, when week after week he produced some of the most gutless defensive efforts I've ever seen from a professional player. He often didn't even pretend to be interested in tackling, but was sure bloody animated about expecting his teammates to plug the gaps. Then there was all his disrespectful off the field bollocks. No idea why anyone would be interested in anything he has to say in his autobiography. Or why a never-was like him thinks his playing career even warrants a feckin' autobiography. The most over-hyped player since Orange Gav.

[Niegs]

Some positive chatter from the community game! (he's got a few more posts on it in a thread)

[tc27]

Cipriani was a pea-hearted flake of a player. A prodigious attacking talent, sure, but I lost all respect for him after his 2011-12 stint with the Rebels, when week after week he produced some of the most gutless defensive efforts I've ever seen from a professional player. He often didn't even pretend to be interested in tackling, but was sure bloody animated about expecting his teammates to plug the gaps. Then there was all his disrespectful off the field bollocks. No idea why anyone would be interested in anything he has to say in his autobiography. Or why a never-was like him thinks his playing career even warrants a feckin' autobiography. The most over-hyped player since Orange Gav.

Thought his comments on the infamous Denver training camp were interesting. Didn't need to know he was having threesomes on the reg though