The Scottish Politics Thread

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Tichtheid
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Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 pm

You can absolutely change my mind, post a link to an EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably.

Not “empathy”, not a 2018 report from someone at Edinburgh University, not an obscure French MP. A current EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably joining the EU.

50 MPs, MEPs support fast-track EU membership for independent Scotland
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-eur ... -scotland/



Scotland rejoining EU would be 'relatively speedy', says senior German MEP
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 69561.html
Biffer
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Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:31 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:25 pm So exactly as I said, utter bollocks and no serious EU politician backing it.

Seriously, those were incredibly weak links
They were the first three I got from a search, I'm just getting used to this board, I don't know how many links I can put in one post, the Word Press boards I used are limited to two or three, iirc

Herman Van Rompuy says Brexit 'has changed EU view of Scotland'


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-49690513

This is the second ex-president of the European Council talking favourably about Scotland joining the EU, they obviously can't say "no problem, jump on board"

If I'm wasting my time and there is absolutely nothing that will change you mind, no problem, I'll stop.
You can absolutely change my mind, post a link to an EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably.

Not “empathy”, not a 2018 report from someone at Edinburgh University, not an obscure French MP. A current EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably joining the EU.
The EU's head of representation in the UK good enough?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... ed-9798523
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
tc27
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Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:50 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:31 pm

They were the first three I got from a search, I'm just getting used to this board, I don't know how many links I can put in one post, the Word Press boards I used are limited to two or three, iirc

Herman Van Rompuy says Brexit 'has changed EU view of Scotland'


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-49690513

This is the second ex-president of the European Council talking favourably about Scotland joining the EU, they obviously can't say "no problem, jump on board"

If I'm wasting my time and there is absolutely nothing that will change you mind, no problem, I'll stop.
You can absolutely change my mind, post a link to an EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably.

Not “empathy”, not a 2018 report from someone at Edinburgh University, not an obscure French MP. A current EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably joining the EU.
The EU's head of representation in the UK good enough?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... ed-9798523
Interesting to read what she actually said:
She said: "I think, had Scotland achieved independence, there would be no reason why it would not be accepted into the normal accession process."

Minor was then asked if Scotland would be prioritised in the accession process to the EU if the country voted to quit the UK in the wake of Brexit.

She added: "I think, obviously, there are some things that would facilitate that process, namely that Scotland would at a previous point have been aligned with the European acquis.
Its pretty weak stuff.

'Some things that could facilitate progress'.

How many years off the wait time do you think this might account for...especially considering the alignment with EU acquis will start changing come January
The entire process, from application for membership to membership has typically taken about a decade, although some countries, notably Sweden, Finland, and Austria have been faster, taking only a few years. The process from application for association agreement through accession has taken far longer, as much as several decades (Turkey for example first applied for association in the 1950s and has yet to conclude accession negotiations).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargeme ... ew%20years.

Meanwhile the bigger things that would impede progress - namely to requirement to be a monetary sovereign with a central bank - are nowhere near being resolved.
Biffer
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As I’ve said earlier, I’m not necessarily convinced that full eu membership will be the most practical immediate route for an independent Scotland, it depends partially on the UK EU relationship. EFTA May be a better initial route given it allows for separate trade deals, giving us the ability to have our own trading arrangement with RUK. That’ll solidify one way or another over the next year or two.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:50 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:31 pm

They were the first three I got from a search, I'm just getting used to this board, I don't know how many links I can put in one post, the Word Press boards I used are limited to two or three, iirc

Herman Van Rompuy says Brexit 'has changed EU view of Scotland'


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-49690513

This is the second ex-president of the European Council talking favourably about Scotland joining the EU, they obviously can't say "no problem, jump on board"

If I'm wasting my time and there is absolutely nothing that will change you mind, no problem, I'll stop.
You can absolutely change my mind, post a link to an EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably.

Not “empathy”, not a 2018 report from someone at Edinburgh University, not an obscure French MP. A current EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably joining the EU.
The EU's head of representation in the UK good enough?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... ed-9798523
Sure, here’s a more serious interpretation of what she actually said https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... membership

Both from 3 1/2 years ago mind... ffs, this is desperate
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Tichtheid
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ffs, this is desperate
Yes it is, from you.

You were given several sources for Scotland being in a position to join the EU relatively easily, from academics, MPs MEPs and former presidents of the EU commission, two of them. These sources showed that there is will in Europe to accommodate a Scottish application for membership, should that be the way the people of Scotland choose to go.

They, the EU politicians, can't be seen to be involving themselves in the internal politics of UK - this is the same reason they couldn't step in when Madrid brutally clamped down on Catalan politicians and supporters - is this a difficult thing to understand? It really shouldn't be.


edit, having now read the Guardian article, it changes nothing, no one said membership of the EU would be automatic, unless there is a post that can be quoted, what was said, what I said, and that seems to have been the start of this was
There was the argument that Spain would veto Scottish membership, but that has faded, there was no real reason Scotland would have been denied membership, it was uncharted territory, in fact a "Fast Track" membership is being talked up now.

I've seen nothing to contradict my assertion that 'a "Fast Track" membership is being talked up now.. - now being in in the time since the referendum, nothing aside from slick continually shouting "bollocks"
Biffer
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Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:31 pm
Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:50 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 pm

You can absolutely change my mind, post a link to an EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably.

Not “empathy”, not a 2018 report from someone at Edinburgh University, not an obscure French MP. A current EU politician saying that Scotland could be fast tracked or looked on favourably joining the EU.
The EU's head of representation in the UK good enough?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... ed-9798523
Sure, here’s a more serious interpretation of what she actually said https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... membership

Both from 3 1/2 years ago mind... ffs, this is desperate
Quote from the article you link to -

Jacqueline Minor, the European commission’s head of representation in the UK, said Scotland would need to formally apply after leaving the UK, although it could be fast-tracked because it already complies with EU rules and regulations.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Dogbert
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Douglas Ross had his first real opportunity to do the right thing and stand up to Boris Johnson - not just for Scotland , but the whole of the UK , and he blew it

If he can't even get this right .....so much for the party of law and order

I know it's only from the Telegraph , and from a Former Foreign Secretary but it does state the case pretty succinctly

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -exposed/

It will not have been easy for Geoffrey Cox, a Conservative MP and strong supporter of Brexit, to say that he could not back the proposals in the Internal Market Bill that the Government admits will breach international law. By all accounts he had protracted discussions with Downing Street before coming to his view that “it is unconscionable that this country, justly famous for its regard for the rule of law around the world, should act in such a way”.
He spoke with the experience and authority of a former attorney general. I have the different perspective of a former foreign secretary. But I come to the same conclusion. For this country to enact a law deliberately abrogating an international treaty even in “a specific and limited way”, as the Northern Ireland Secretary described it, would be a serious foreign policy error. It would have a lasting and damaging effect on our international reputation and standing, diminishing our ability to exert our influence and protect our interests.
In the four years I spent at the Foreign Office, I doubt there was a single day that I did not rely on international law – the body of treaties, conventions and agreements that we and other nations have signed over the years – in some shape or form. Every time we ask for consular access to a British national held in a foreign prison we are basing our argument on international law, as Dominic Raab has done in the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, held in Iran. Every day that we seek fair treatment for a British company with operations overseas against unfair taxation, or confiscation of assets, or discriminatory exclusion from a domestic market, we refer to international law.
When we send British naval ships through the South China Sea to maintain freedom of navigation despite Chinese claims, we are asserting such law. When RAF fighters see off Russian planes intruding into our airspace we are upholding it. When we designate parts of the South Atlantic and the Indian Ocean as Marine Protected Areas we are wholly reliant on it, since we could not possibly police such vast zones.
So international law is not some abstract concept that only comes up occasionally. It matters to British people every hour of every day. And we have always been in a strong position to make use of it because our forebears were among its principal architects. It was Britain’s leaders in the late nineteenth century who chose to settle disputes with the United States through legal proceedings rather than brute force, and then championed the role of the Permanent Court of Arbitration. British experts have been at the forefront of the work of the international legal institutions at The Hague, and all British governments have accepted as compulsory the jurisdiction of the modern International Court of Justice.

This is not just because we are an enlightened and broad-minded people. It happens to be massively in the interests of the United Kingdom to be a strong upholder of binding international rules. We are a country particularly exposed to risk around the world, with the greatest financial centre on earth, large trade flows and citizens who like to travel a great deal. More than most countries we need to know that laws are kept and debts are paid. Over the centuries, we have become so noted for our reliability and expertise that people all over the globe want to settle their disputes under English law. Such pre-eminence has heightened our influence and soft power even while our physical power in the world has diminished.
Yet the concept of international law has also, for Britain, reached far beyond even this day-to-day importance. It has provided the foundation and justification for some of our most momentous decisions as a nation. The declaration of war in 1914 was specifically to uphold a treaty commitment to Belgian neutrality, in contrast to the decision by Germany to regard that as “a scrap of paper”. The establishment of the Nuremberg trials in 1945 was, in the words of the prosecution, “to utilise international law to meet the greatest menace of our times – aggressive war”.
Successive Prime Ministers have justified their actions abroad on this basis. In 1982, Margaret Thatcher cited “international law must be upheld” as one of three guiding principles of her position on the Falklands. When Russia carried out the Salisbury poisonings on our soil two years ago, Theresa May asked for and received the support of other countries on the basis that it was “about the role of the Russian state in the development of chemical weapons, contrary to international law”. It is on a similar basis that the UK today objects to acts of aggression, such as the use of chemical weapons by Assad, or the breach of treaties, as seen in China’s recent actions in Hong Kong.
Against the background of this long tradition, it is no small thing for ministers to embark on purposefully and consciously seeking to disregard the international law embodied in the EU Withdrawal Treaty. Irrespective of their justification or the provisional nature of their intentions, this course of action is bound to undermine their authority in international relations and that of their successors.
That authority could be needed very soon. In the event of no deal being reached with the EU, the UK will have particular need of upholding global rules. If some EU members make it difficult for our exports, we will no doubt call to our aid the rules of the World Trade Organisation. And if the fishing boats of other countries intrude into our waters, we will rely on the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. All of this is international law, and to set the precedent of breaking it is a very bad idea indeed.
If the EU does not act in good faith over the Northern Ireland protocol, the best recourse is to use arbitration and proportionate measures as provided for in the agreement already signed and ratified. In that scenario, ministers would have a far more sympathetic parliament and supportive international opinion than if they seek unilaterally to override an agreement they entered into only last year.
Whenever I spoke as foreign secretary about the upholding of laws and treaties, to the UN or any errant state, I did so with the utter confidence that my country stood on solid ground. We undermine that ground at our peril.
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Northern Lights
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Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:16 pm
Northern Lights wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:59 pm
Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Because they won’t be used for political purposes at Westminster, no sire 😂😂.

One of the good things about the european system was the different categorisations of areas depending on economic development and other challenges areas faced, which allowed for different levels of funding. Surely a better approach would be to look at a proper cross governmental approach which starts to neuter some of the ability to act for short term political reasons and use a similar, but more detailed and localised categorisation?

Because with the criticism you made above, which can be turned round pretty much 180 at Westminster, it basically says you like this because you don’t like the SNP, not because you think it’s a better actual system. It seems it’s just about who’s in charge of it.
No I like this because the current system has been abused by the snp and I’m in favour of bypassing them because their decision making is highly suspect.

The lack of accountability in Scotland is a real problem, we have no upper house, second rate msp’s that vote like sheep with apparently no individual integrity.

This has led to disastrous escapades whether it’s the ferry fiasco or Prestwick or the arts money to combat the impact Covid that disappeared into a black hole the list goes on and on.

The Salmond inquiry has also turned into a farce with the obfuscation by the civil service and snp, we need to demand more.

Your complaints are unfounded because the powers don’t reside in Westminster so we don’t know how they will be exercised but you are already convinced that it will be bad, because you know the tories, thatcher etc etc
I think it's evident from my posts that I'm more than willing to criticise the SNP (although that doesn't mean I agree with every criticism you make, which seems to be criticism of everything).

But can't you see that the other side of the divide can very easily take the first couple of paragraphs you've typed there and say exactly the same about the tories at Westminster? That they've abused the current system (packing the Lords, proroguing Parliament, the abuse of the non tender system to grant contracts to tory donors - I'm not saying I agree that these are all correct, just that they are arguments which will be made, same as I don't agree with all the points you make but recognise they are arguments which will be made).

Can you really not see that? And if the answer is 'yes but I don't care what they think because they're SNP' then that is again the exact same attitude as the ubernats come out with, just reversed.

It'd be equally easy to make a list of complete shitshow from Westminster as well.

So why not try to look at a system that might at least partially prevent the partisanship affecting long term infrastructure spend?
TBH i dont see you critising the SNP, i think I've only really seen cloggie openly agreeing with the flaws that we have discussed on them, that's not having a go at you just my impression from your posts. I know i am viewed as being overly critical of them but that probably is as much to do with my dealings with them and the Scottish civil service which i find incredibly frustrating on a number of levels, equally i am probably blunter on here than i would be down the pub.

Devolution is not working as well as it should, this is not just a go at the SNP who in my opinion are gaming the system to the max to further their one true aim to the detriment of the people of Scotland but the whole set-up of it, we really need an upper house which i am just spit-balling here could be the House of Lords as just a check on the legislation that is coming through. The HoL can be overruled if the Commons wants to but is a useful check on the bills coming through parliment. Before i go further i am highly critical of the tories under Boris, they are a shower of shite that do not resonate with me, however they are preferable to Corbyn. I hope Labour sort themselves out under Starmer but he is not exactly Mr Charismatic either but maybe a dull lawyer type is exactly what they need for now and we certainly could do with a lot more serious politicians than the clowns occupying both parliments at the moment.

There is a major issue at Holyrood with the lack of oversight which is why we get such shite bills coming forward, whether that is named person or the latest hate crime bill, the committee system simply isnt working and this is being compounded by the SNP MSP's voting for whatever Nicloa wants with no serious questioning if the proposed legislation is any good or not. The Salmond inquiry should now be deeply embarrassing for all with the levels of obfusication that is going on which neatly encapsulates the problems with Holyrood and the civil service at the moment.

I am pissed off the internal markets bill went through the first stage with such a large majority vote as it needs serious reform to deal with NI ramifications nevermind anything else. I am equally pissed off with them voting down a key amendment to the fisheries bill so Westminster with the tories or anyone else having as large a majority as they do stops the system working effectively.

These are absolutely fundamental flaws with our system and it is certainly getting tested to breaking point. I do understand the push for Indy Scotland because of the shitshow that we see eminating from Westminster, i 100% do but it has to been seen that the SNP are disenfranchised near 50% of Scots as well with the direction of travel they have been pulling us on. Democracy only works with the consent of the losing side, I certainly dont like the fact the SNP have been in power for as long as they have but i most definitely do accept their right to govern as they have won the popular vote and my view is the minority (as right as i may be when the rest of you are all wrong :razz: ).

So finally i would be happy for local authorities or others to be be to access funding that is denied to them from Holyrood, it would be a safety net for LA's and others who because they dont have a yellow badge can still get the cash they need for infrastructure projects and the like that will benefit the people in their area, there is a better chance of it going ahead to benefit us all if they have 2 avenues to get the cash from rather than being at the whim of just one.
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:36 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:31 pm
Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:50 pm

The EU's head of representation in the UK good enough?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... ed-9798523
Sure, here’s a more serious interpretation of what she actually said https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... membership

Both from 3 1/2 years ago mind... ffs, this is desperate
Quote from the article you link to -

Jacqueline Minor, the European commission’s head of representation in the UK, said Scotland would need to formally apply after leaving the UK, although it could be fast-tracked because it already complies with EU rules and regulations.
and another
Minor said the commission’s position on Scottish membership had not changed since the independence referendum in 2014, when it repeatedly said Scotland could not automatically take up separate membership just because it was part of an existing member state.

“The position in Scotland hasn’t changed,” Minor said. There is a clear process for any applicant country under article 49 of the European treaties. “That would also apply to Scotland. If Scotland became an independent country I think article 49 is the normal starting point,” she said.
It's also worth noting that she is not an elected official and here is a teaser from her job spec:
As Head of Representation, Minor is the European Commission's spokesperson in the UK. The head office of the UK Representation is based in London, co-ordinates the European Commission's activities in the UK and takes specific responsibility for England.
This doesn't even go into the currency requirements, which 6 years later we still have no idea about, the debt etc. I fully believe an independent Scotland would eventually join the EU but it would be a very, very long and painful process and any other interpretation at this stage is just fantasy.

It's this suspension of reality amongst intelligent independence supporters that makes it so hard to have a real conversation. If the boot were on the other foot and I was throwing you 3 1/2 year old articles from obscure civil servants, minor politicians from other EU countries or single academics you would rightly laugh me out of town, but you have to pretend that it is a sound argument.
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Northern Lights
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Nicola Sturgeon denies exploiting coronavirus test backlog
First minister says she ‘does not understand’ accusation
Mark McLaughlin
Wednesday September 16 2020, 12.01am, The Times
Nicola Sturgeon
Scottish National Party
Nicola Sturgeon said that she was still trying to understand what was going wrong with the testing system
Nicola Sturgeon said that she was still trying to understand what was going wrong with the testing system
ANDY BUCHANAN/PA
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Nicola Sturgeon has denied “playing politics” with coronavirus testing as UK ministers admitted that swabs would have to be rationed during shortages that are expected to last for weeks.

The first minister was accused by an unnamed source in the UK government of politicising the crisis after revealing on Monday that she had headed off attempts to limit testing at Scottish centres to clear the backlog.

Ms Sturgeon said that she “genuinely” failed to understand the accusation.

“We’ve got a UK-wide system and we’re working constructively together within that but if there are issues in it I think it’s better to try to be up front about those issues and talk about what we’re doing to resolve them,” she said. “That’s not playing politics, that’s just trying to make sure a system that is really crucially important for our fight against the virus is working as effectively as possible.

“Part of that is me, as first minister, trying to understand where the problems are so that I know what, if anything, the Scottish government can do more of to try to help resolve these issues. It’s that spirit of trying to find a partnership approach to resolving them that these discussions are taking place.”

Ms Sturgeon said that she had held “constructive” talks with Matt Hancock, the UK health secretary, and Baroness Harding of Winscombe, the Conservative peer who leads the English testing system, on Monday night “to seek assurances that Scotland will continue to get fair access to the UK-wide laboratory capacity”.

She sought the urgent talks after concerns that a backlog in test processing capacity was causing problems accurately reporting the Scottish results.

Problems are centred on the UK government’s Lighthouse Lab network, which includes a facility in Glasgow, and the first minister said that too many tests were not being processed quickly enough. There are concerns that some workers have waited up to a week for results.

“I have a concern about the capacity constraints right now with the UK-wide system and for Scotland in recent days,” Ms Sturgeon added.

Mr Hancock said yesterday that he would not “shirk from decisions about prioritisation” and had NHS patients and staff top of the list, followed by care homes. Plans are being drawn up to reserve lab capacity for these groups.

Mr Hancock hopes that asking people without symptoms not to use up testing capacity will help to ease the problem in the short term.

As MPs from all the main parties complained that their constituents were struggling to get tests, Mr Hancock accepted that there were “operational challenges” and blamed “a sharp rise in people coming forward for a test, including those who are not eligible”. In other developments:

• Hallowe’en celebrations, including guising, are hanging in the balance with a decision yet to be taken over whether restrictions will be lifted in time.

• Ms Sturgeon acknowledged that poorer children may lose out because home gatherings of more than two households are banned but more expensive events such as five-a-side football and bowling sessions can continue.

• Police representatives have criticised the “abject failure” to hand out protective kit for officers and derided some of the Covid-19 guidelines as “laughable”.

• Infection rates among the middle-aged in England have reached the same level that people in their twenties saw two weeks ago, with hospitalisations doubling in the past ten days.

The number of Covid-19 patients in Scottish hospitals has been downgraded by 82 per cent after a change in how they are recorded.

Ms Sturgeon said: “From now on, we will only count patients who first test positive for Covid during their current stay in hospital, or in the two weeks before their admission. In addition, we will stop classifying them as Covid patients for statistical purposes after 28 days in hospital, or 28 days after the date of their positive test, whichever is later.”

This caused the figure to shrink from 262 to 48 yesterday. Ms Sturgeon said that the “more narrow but more accurate measurement” would mean that the rise in cases could be better tracked.

The changes follow an audit commissioned by the Scottish government. The previous tally, which has been used since the start of the crisis, had become less accurate over time because it was including “lots of patients” who had previously tested positive but had since recovered and were in hospital for unrelated reasons, Ms Sturgeon said. It had also skewed Scotland’s position compared with other parts of the UK.

She warned that the measure would not be perfect because some Covid-19 hospital stays were longer than 28 days.

Professor Linda Bauld, an expert in public health at Edinburgh University, said: “What this tells us is that, overwhelmingly, the people who have been occupying hospital beds have been people who have had Covid in the past and gone back into hospital for other things.”
Interesting article on the whole but the bit i do find most interesting is the change in the recording of hospital admissions, i agree with the change even if it will skew comparative numbers as it is more accurate. The NHS isnt under any sort of strain, not even close but yet we have seen a large increase in restrictions whether locally (around Glasgow) and nationally with the rule of 6. We really could do with a more positive response on how we are going to live with this virus as contrary to Sturgeon and Devi Sridhar elimination is not practical or possible.
tc27
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Dogbert wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm As an aside to the Brexit shit Sandwich

Had to get my daughter Covid tested yesterday ( Fever 101 - New continuous Cough ) - on the website at 07:30 , slot booked for 09:30 at Aberdeen Airport - results back 22:30 same day via txt / email ) - she was negative

Listening to the radio this morning - quite a number of people calling in to say they could not get a test in England - who then drove to their nearest their nearest testing site ,but without a booked slot - they were then told by the people at the site to book using an Aberdeen Postcode - to get the QR code - which the site down in England then used

Would that then be counted in the Scotland testing totals ?
I asked someone about this.

Apparently areas with higher R rates get priority.

Image
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Northern Lights
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tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:44 am
Dogbert wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm As an aside to the Brexit shit Sandwich

Had to get my daughter Covid tested yesterday ( Fever 101 - New continuous Cough ) - on the website at 07:30 , slot booked for 09:30 at Aberdeen Airport - results back 22:30 same day via txt / email ) - she was negative

Listening to the radio this morning - quite a number of people calling in to say they could not get a test in England - who then drove to their nearest their nearest testing site ,but without a booked slot - they were then told by the people at the site to book using an Aberdeen Postcode - to get the QR code - which the site down in England then used

Would that then be counted in the Scotland testing totals ?
I asked someone about this.

Apparently areas with higher R rates get priority.

Image
Lumping all of Scotland together is silly, the R rate around Glasgow will be high, up North not many cases so will be low.
tc27
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Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm As I’ve said earlier, I’m not necessarily convinced that full eu membership will be the most practical immediate route for an independent Scotland, it depends partially on the UK EU relationship. EFTA May be a better initial route given it allows for separate trade deals, giving us the ability to have our own trading arrangement with RUK. That’ll solidify one way or another over the next year or two.

As trade with the EEA/EU accounts for only 15% of Scottish exports whats the big rush? EFTA/EEA would allow a customs union with the rUK but would still require a full regulatory border and has pretty much the same disruptive effect.

Cynically I would suggest the SNP realise quick EU membership is impossible and EFTA brings little actual benefits but as its the No/Remain voters who are pushing 'yes' responses over 50% in polls they will keep teasing it for a while longer.
tc27
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Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:51 am
tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:44 am
Dogbert wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:29 pm As an aside to the Brexit shit Sandwich

Had to get my daughter Covid tested yesterday ( Fever 101 - New continuous Cough ) - on the website at 07:30 , slot booked for 09:30 at Aberdeen Airport - results back 22:30 same day via txt / email ) - she was negative

Listening to the radio this morning - quite a number of people calling in to say they could not get a test in England - who then drove to their nearest their nearest testing site ,but without a booked slot - they were then told by the people at the site to book using an Aberdeen Postcode - to get the QR code - which the site down in England then used

Would that then be counted in the Scotland testing totals ?
I asked someone about this.

Apparently areas with higher R rates get priority.

Image
Lumping all of Scotland together is silly, the R rate around Glasgow will be high, up North not many cases so will be low.
The population/landmass equation is very different in Scotland to England which I think has all kinds of secondary effects. But yes agree lumping Scotland together in one region is not helpful.
Biffer
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tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 am
Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm As I’ve said earlier, I’m not necessarily convinced that full eu membership will be the most practical immediate route for an independent Scotland, it depends partially on the UK EU relationship. EFTA May be a better initial route given it allows for separate trade deals, giving us the ability to have our own trading arrangement with RUK. That’ll solidify one way or another over the next year or two.

As trade with the EEA/EU accounts for only 15% of Scottish exports whats the big rush? EFTA/EEA would allow a customs union with the rUK but would still require a full regulatory border and has pretty much the same disruptive effect.

Cynically I would suggest the SNP realise quick EU membership is impossible and EFTA brings little actual benefits but as its the No/Remain voters who are pushing 'yes' responses over 50% in polls they will keep teasing it for a while longer.
As I said, the best position for an indy Scotland will become more clear in the next couple of years. Unlike you, I'm not going to decide a particular approach is the right one now.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
tc27
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Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:13 am
tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 am
Biffer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm As I’ve said earlier, I’m not necessarily convinced that full eu membership will be the most practical immediate route for an independent Scotland, it depends partially on the UK EU relationship. EFTA May be a better initial route given it allows for separate trade deals, giving us the ability to have our own trading arrangement with RUK. That’ll solidify one way or another over the next year or two.

As trade with the EEA/EU accounts for only 15% of Scottish exports whats the big rush? EFTA/EEA would allow a customs union with the rUK but would still require a full regulatory border and has pretty much the same disruptive effect.

Cynically I would suggest the SNP realise quick EU membership is impossible and EFTA brings little actual benefits but as its the No/Remain voters who are pushing 'yes' responses over 50% in polls they will keep teasing it for a while longer.
As I said, the best position for an indy Scotland will become more clear in the next couple of years. Unlike you, I'm not going to decide a particular approach is the right one now.

Well...If I was on your side I would stay as vague as possible for as long as possible...the choices over currency, trade and security are all pretty dire so no need to make people confront them now.
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tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:13 am
tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 am


As trade with the EEA/EU accounts for only 15% of Scottish exports whats the big rush? EFTA/EEA would allow a customs union with the rUK but would still require a full regulatory border and has pretty much the same disruptive effect.

Cynically I would suggest the SNP realise quick EU membership is impossible and EFTA brings little actual benefits but as its the No/Remain voters who are pushing 'yes' responses over 50% in polls they will keep teasing it for a while longer.
As I said, the best position for an indy Scotland will become more clear in the next couple of years. Unlike you, I'm not going to decide a particular approach is the right one now.

Well...If I was on your side I would stay as vague as possible for as long as possible...the choices over currency, trade and security are all pretty dire so no need to make people confront them now.
EFTA doesnt allow Freedom of Movement either which I personally think is what most Scots would actually want from the EU, that is what will make the ordinary man on the street feel more European which is in stark contrast to the Brexiteers which is probably what drove the biggest reason for the Leave vote. So to my mind it would likely be all-in on EU membership as opposed to the halfway house of EFTA.

Be interested on what the jocks think on this though.
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Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:22 am
tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:13 am

As I said, the best position for an indy Scotland will become more clear in the next couple of years. Unlike you, I'm not going to decide a particular approach is the right one now.

Well...If I was on your side I would stay as vague as possible for as long as possible...the choices over currency, trade and security are all pretty dire so no need to make people confront them now.
EFTA doesnt allow Freedom of Movement either which I personally think is what most Scots would actually want from the EU, that is what will make the ordinary man on the street feel more European which is in stark contrast to the Brexiteers which is probably what drove the biggest reason for the Leave vote. So to my mind it would likely be all-in on EU membership as opposed to the halfway house of EFTA.

Be interested on what the jocks think on this though.
EFTA / EEA allows freedom of movement

https://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Northern Lights
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Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 am
Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:22 am
tc27 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am


Well...If I was on your side I would stay as vague as possible for as long as possible...the choices over currency, trade and security are all pretty dire so no need to make people confront them now.
EFTA doesnt allow Freedom of Movement either which I personally think is what most Scots would actually want from the EU, that is what will make the ordinary man on the street feel more European which is in stark contrast to the Brexiteers which is probably what drove the biggest reason for the Leave vote. So to my mind it would likely be all-in on EU membership as opposed to the halfway house of EFTA.

Be interested on what the jocks think on this though.
EFTA / EEA allows freedom of movement

https://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons
Hmm must have got that wrong, apologies, i was sure for some reason that was one of the key differences to full EU membership
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Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:40 am
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 am
Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:22 am

EFTA doesnt allow Freedom of Movement either which I personally think is what most Scots would actually want from the EU, that is what will make the ordinary man on the street feel more European which is in stark contrast to the Brexiteers which is probably what drove the biggest reason for the Leave vote. So to my mind it would likely be all-in on EU membership as opposed to the halfway house of EFTA.

Be interested on what the jocks think on this though.
EFTA / EEA allows freedom of movement

https://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons
Hmm must have got that wrong, apologies, i was sure for some reason that was one of the key differences to full EU membership
It covers quite a lot more than people think - Social security, recognition of professional qualifications, European Health Insurance Card for example. But as pointed out above, it doesn't include a customs union - which leaves Scotland free to agree a customs union with the RUK.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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In other Scottish political news, Embra Uni and Hume...

Here is Massie's comment piece on it which I of course am in agreement with, personally reckon Embra Uni have fucked up on this one, hey ho I'm sure someone will disagree such is the intersting fabric of life.
A rigged reckoning with history is pointless
The self-abasement of Edinburgh University shows the futility of only judging our past through contemporary mores
Alex Massie
Monday September 14 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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Revolutionary zeal is always the precursor to absurdity for it is in the nature of such things that all perspective must, in time, be ceded to the madness of the moment. A corrective, however useful or even necessary it may initially be, eventually overreaches itself so thoroughly that it tarnishes the cause it first thought to advance.

And so, in September 2020, the University of Edinburgh did decree that the David Hume Tower, the tallest building on its central campus if not, perhaps, the most architecturally distinguished, would no longer be named in honour of Scotland’s most distinguished philosopher. Hume must fall, for he was guilty of thinking incorrectly, failing to anticipate that his views on race — to wit, the opinion that, as he put it in a footnote to his essay Of National Characters, “I am apt to suspect the negroes . . . to be naturally inferior to the whites” — might one day be considered appalling. Which, of course, they are. To us. But what of it?

This decision, an interim one, “has been taken because of the sensitivities around asking students to use a building named after the 18th-century philosopher whose comments on matters of race, though not uncommon at the time, rightly cause distress today”. Well, we have been here before, for this is the new spirit of the age. Strictly speaking, Hume has not been “cancelled” for, apart from other considerations, his books remain available in the university library and his place on the curriculum is, for now at any rate, still secure. Nevertheless, a gesture must be made and a signal sent. Hume won’t be the last of the guilty men.

It is hardly a matter of astonishment that a man born in 1711 held views that could be considered “problematic” in 2020. “Philosopher out of touch with public opinion 250 years after his death” is hardly news. If the standard applied to Hume was taken more generally, we would be required to eliminate every statue and every building, honouring every person born before our time. Not a single 18th-century man or even 18th-century woman could survive such a test unscathed. We would be denying our own history.

So what tests might be applied? The best, I think, has been suggested by Sunder Katwala, director of the think tank British Future. He recommends a straightforward series of questions: what is this person best known for? What is their principal achievement? What is actually being recognised by their memorialisation? Answer those questions and most of these fabricated controversies melt away.

Hence in the case of Edward Colston, the Bristol slaver unceremoniously torn from his pedestal in June, this was easily answered: Colston’s statue may have been erected in honour of his municipal philanthropy, but that generosity was in turn dependent upon the fruits of the slave trade. It seems reasonable to think the iniquity of slavery trumps the value of Colston’s generosity.

By contrast, Winston Churchill may have been, indeed was, a racist but no sane person thinks this the most germane fact of his life and career. These views, like his other shortcomings, may be thought blemishes but hardly the full picture. Remember them, for sure, but cancelling Churchill becomes a spectacular example of missing the wood for the trees.

This is true of ostensibly trickier cases too. Thus Henry Dundas, 1st Viscount Melville, who voted for the gradual abolition of slavery, is condemned for failing to support its abolition in the right way. The Melville monument in Edinburgh’s St Andrew Square was paid for by sailors and former members of the Royal Navy, commemorating Dundas’s service as first lord of the admiralty (and secretary of war) during the Napoleonic wars; service, you might think, which justifies some memorial. Instead, however, we are encouraged to judge the past, and find it wanting, as a binary matter, not as it was lived and in the round.

There is a showiness to this that is dispiriting. The young are entitled to their simplicity but adults — if there remain any — at the University of Edinburgh might think there little need to endorse the comforts of certainty in this fashion. Indeed, the moderating of such convictions might be thought one of the points of a university education. The world is a complicated place.

There is, I am afraid, a Year Zero brusqueness to these demands for “cancellation” or “decolonising” the curriculum. The past is an embarrassing place, populated by “problematic” people. If we abolish it, we may start afresh. Salting history makes a desert of it, however, and even the young could be expected to appreciate that just as they judge their forebears so they will in turn be judged themselves. Humanity has not yet reached a state of such perfection as to be deemed irreproachable by generations to come. Even today’s super-woke will one day be found wanting.

As for the university, one can only suspect its authorities felt the need to put on a performance. Lacking other subjects for atonement, they settled for Hume. A gesture was plainly deemed necessary, if only to prove the university’s willingness to prostrate itself before fashionable absurdity. This is craven, masochistic and thus entirely to be expected.

It is not even obvious that the university buckled in the face of overwhelming pressure to do something about its “problem”. A petition demanding the tower be renamed attracted fewer than 2,000 signatures. It could, I suspect, have been ignored. The university chose otherwise and we may surmise it did so because, at some level, it wished to make a performance of its own abasement. Only by doing so could it purge itself. Having done so, it breathes the sweet air of liberation.

In which light, and if only to highlight still further the absurdity of this sorry rigmarole, we might ponder the manner in which the petition initially suggested the tower might be renamed to honour Julius Nyerere, the Edinburgh graduate who became the first president of Tanzania. Alas, Nyerere was found to have held uncompromising views on homosexuality (and what you might deem a problematic attitude to multi-party democracy) and so that notion was quietly binned. You don’t have to find that funny, but I think it helps.

A reckoning with our own history might be useful but not if it is so thoroughly rigged as to ensure no figures from the past can ever pass it. Because, in the end, the real struggle is to remember history as it really was, not to pretend it can only be measured or judged by contemporary mores. You would think, or at least hope, that a university might appreciate that.
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The David Hume Tower thing is incredibly dumb.
Biffer
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Lord Keen, the Advocate General (main Govt law officer in Scotland) looks to resign over the Internal Market bill, it appears there are efforts being made to persuade him otherwise

And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 pm Lord Keen, the Advocate General (main Govt law officer in Scotland) looks to resign over the Internal Market bill, it appears there are efforts being made to persuade him otherwise

I sat next to him at a Burns Supper last year in London. Top chap and didn't hold back on his views on UKG and SG.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Biffer
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Slick wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 pm Lord Keen, the Advocate General (main Govt law officer in Scotland) looks to resign over the Internal Market bill, it appears there are efforts being made to persuade him otherwise

I sat next to him at a Burns Supper last year in London. Top chap and didn't hold back on his views on UKG and SG.
I'd heard that. Another casualty of Cummings scooping all the good, dedicated, competent people out of his way?

Edit - I hadn't heard about your Burns Supper. I'd heard he is a good chap whose fundamental focus is the law.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:48 pm
Slick wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 pm Lord Keen, the Advocate General (main Govt law officer in Scotland) looks to resign over the Internal Market bill, it appears there are efforts being made to persuade him otherwise

I sat next to him at a Burns Supper last year in London. Top chap and didn't hold back on his views on UKG and SG.
I'd heard that. Another casualty of Cummings scooping all the good, dedicated, competent people out of his way?

Edit - I hadn't heard about your Burns Supper. I'd heard he is a good chap whose fundamental focus is the law.
Haha, that would have been weird. That’s definitely the impression I got of him. He was very keen to help where he could on my work, which he certainly didn’t need to say, but I haven’t called that in as yet
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Biffer
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Slick wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:06 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:48 pm
Slick wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm

I sat next to him at a Burns Supper last year in London. Top chap and didn't hold back on his views on UKG and SG.
I'd heard that. Another casualty of Cummings scooping all the good, dedicated, competent people out of his way?

Edit - I hadn't heard about your Burns Supper. I'd heard he is a good chap whose fundamental focus is the law.
Haha, that would have been weird. That’s definitely the impression I got of him. He was very keen to help where he could on my work, which he certainly didn’t need to say, but I haven’t called that in as yet
Looks like he might have some time on his hands shortly
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Northern Lights
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Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:07 pm
Slick wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:06 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:48 pm

I'd heard that. Another casualty of Cummings scooping all the good, dedicated, competent people out of his way?

Edit - I hadn't heard about your Burns Supper. I'd heard he is a good chap whose fundamental focus is the law.
Haha, that would have been weird. That’s definitely the impression I got of him. He was very keen to help where he could on my work, which he certainly didn’t need to say, but I haven’t called that in as yet
Looks like he might have some time on his hands shortly
Now confirmed, he’s gone, resignation accepted
tc27
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Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 am
Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:40 am
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 am

EFTA / EEA allows freedom of movement

https://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons
Hmm must have got that wrong, apologies, i was sure for some reason that was one of the key differences to full EU membership
It covers quite a lot more than people think - Social security, recognition of professional qualifications, European Health Insurance Card for example. But as pointed out above, it doesn't include a customs union - which leaves Scotland free to agree a customs union with the RUK.
A customs union only covers tariffs.

There would still need to be significant border infrastructure to inspect goods, agriculture and animal transport.

Scottish firms selling FS to the rUK (a significant onshore tax base) would have to relocate.
Biffer
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tc27 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 am
Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:40 am

Hmm must have got that wrong, apologies, i was sure for some reason that was one of the key differences to full EU membership
It covers quite a lot more than people think - Social security, recognition of professional qualifications, European Health Insurance Card for example. But as pointed out above, it doesn't include a customs union - which leaves Scotland free to agree a customs union with the RUK.
A customs union only covers tariffs.

There would still need to be significant border infrastructure to inspect goods, agriculture and animal transport.

Scottish firms selling FS to the rUK (a significant onshore tax base) would have to relocate.
Unless of course you reach agreement that it doesn't need that.

And let's wait and see what the state of UK FS markets are after we've left the EU shall we?
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Biffer
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Instead of NL's series of politically neutral Times articles, let's have one from that bastion of Scottish Independence, the Financial Times

https://www.ft.com/content/53af9378-e1c ... pe=blocked



Opinion Scottish independence
Boris Johnson’s Brexit plan will break the UK union
The insistence that England must decide what Scotland eats is a gift to the independence movement
PHILIP STEPHENS
Boris Johnson’s readiness to tear up the UK’s reputation for honest dealing by rewriting the EU withdrawal deal has grabbed the headlines. The news, though, is worse. Legislation to create a post-Brexit single market across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland shows equal contempt for the UK's constitutional settlement. By asserting unassailable English supremacy, the prime minister is inviting Scotland to leave the union. 

There is a burgeoning school of thought, in Whitehall and Westminster as well as Edinburgh, that says Brexit has made Scottish independence inevitable. The sweep of history, the story runs, will conclude that the matter was settled as soon as England voted to leave the EU and Scotland to remain. The frayed bonds of the union were cut beyond repair.

There is something to be said for the long view. The Anglo-Scottish union of 1707 was a contingent agreement. Mr Johnson’s remark this year that there is “no such thing” as a border between the two nations was a measure of indifference as well as ignorance. Scotland did not give up its border or its nationhood — nor its distinct legal and educational systems. 


The union was about collaboration abroad. Scotland secured access to the emerging British empire, and England to talented entrepreneurs, engineers and administrators. With empire long gone, Brexit has put an end to any notion of a joint enterprise beyond British shores. Instead, Scotland is presented with a choice: if it sticks with England, it cuts itself off from Europe. The referendum vote to leave the EU was bad enough. The threat to defy international law on the way to a no-deal Brexit risks leaving Scotland isolated on the edge of its own continent.

Historical determinists point also to the sharp contrast in political culture and temperament revealed by Covid-19. The performance of the two nations in curbing the spread has not been that different; the styles have been miles apart. The cautious, open approach of Nicola Sturgeon’s Scottish National party administration has sat alongside a strategy in Downing Street most kindly described as shambolic bluster.

At this point — with Ms Sturgeon demanding a rerun of the 2014 independence poll and the opinion polls showing a solidifying majority of Scots in favour of independence — a reliably pro-union government at Westminster would be declaring that nothing is preordained. England and Scotland have both been enriched by their partnership. 

History is written by human agency. Brexit, such a government would continue, can be the occasion for a new settlement between the four constituent parts of the union. Power reclaimed from Brussels will be distributed to every corner of the UK.

Mr Johnson has taken the opposite course. Publicly he declares himself a unionist; privately, Whitehall officials report, he is heard to scorn Scotland as “too leftwing” — spending money raised from English taxpayers on lavish welfare. The prejudice is reflected in the legislation now before parliament to create a UK single market.

Beyond the controversial clauses that would renege on provisions in the withdrawal agreement to keep an open border in Ireland, the essential purpose of the new law is to tighten England’s grip over the rest of the UK. 

Decisions over food and environment norms, labour law and industrial standards hitherto shared with Brussels will belong solely to Westminster. Powers over health and education held by the Scottish and Welsh parliaments and Northern Ireland assembly will be diluted. Westminster will decide whether to scrap the animal husbandry rules that presently bar imports of American chlorinated chicken.


A common set of rules is certainly needed to allow the UK market to operate freely. Yet there is no reason why the other nations of the union should be barred a say in negotiating trade deals and the setting of standards, or that UK-wide norms must exclude a measure of national discretion. But no, English MPs at Westminster will decide what Scotland eats. 

In truth, the legislation — as bluntly condemned by a pro-union government in Wales as by Ms Sturgeon — is a gift to Scottish nationalism, proof that centrist Scotland is now a prisoner of rightwing English Conservativism.

Mr Johnson’s response to criticism of this English-fits-all approach is to insist he will simply block independence. Even if, as the polls suggest, the Scottish Nationalists win a mandate in next year’s Edinburgh elections, he will prevent a referendum. If that fails, there is a back-up plan. Scottish voters will again be told that their reliance on fiscal transfers from England mean they cannot afford independence.

Both approaches serve the nationalists: the first by legitimising the SNP charge that England is locking Scotland into a state of vassalage; the second by displaying a condescending contempt calculated to energise nationalists. Of course, independence would bring severe economic challenges. But if there was a lesson from the Brexit vote in 2016 it was that identity trumps economics.

Whatever the outcome of the present furore over lawbreaking, Brexit has also weakened the bonds between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The strains on the union, though, start with the balance between Westminster and Edinburgh. Break-up may not be preordained, but none looks so determined as Mr Johnson to force Scotland’s hand.

philip.stephens@ft.com
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tc27
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Biffer wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:07 pm
tc27 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 pm
Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 am

It covers quite a lot more than people think - Social security, recognition of professional qualifications, European Health Insurance Card for example. But as pointed out above, it doesn't include a customs union - which leaves Scotland free to agree a customs union with the RUK.
A customs union only covers tariffs.

There would still need to be significant border infrastructure to inspect goods, agriculture and animal transport.

Scottish firms selling FS to the rUK (a significant onshore tax base) would have to relocate.
Unless of course you reach agreement that it doesn't need that.

And let's wait and see what the state of UK FS markets are after we've left the EU shall we?
Actually its pretty binary - such an agreement would be a single market with the rUK which would preclude the EEA or EU. You cannot straggle two legal orders at once. At some point you (in the meaning if the SNP and its outriders) will need to meaningfully answer these questions.

Your deflection on UK FS is interesting....as bad as the lose of Euro clearing might be for the city (although the EU have given up trying to force it out of London until at least 2022 - one of many delays I suspect) most of the services do not rely on the EU single market and Brexit does not mean they will lose the BoE at a lender of last resort.

Neither apply to FS in Scotland with independence.
Biffer
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So most financial services don't rely on a single market, so London FS won't be badly affected by leaving the EU. But Scottish FS would have to relocate if they weren't in the UK single market. Don't you see the double standard there?

Those Swiss FS companies will be moving soon I imagine.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
tc27
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Biffer wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm So most financial services don't rely on a single market, so London FS won't be badly affected by leaving the EU. But Scottish FS would have to relocate if they weren't in the UK single market. Don't you see the double standard there?

Those Swiss FS companies will be moving soon I imagine.

Well if they are selling 'domestic products' into the rUK market as most FS outside London does they will have to relocate at least the substantive part of the their business.

But the real issue is the lack of a credible lender of last resort:

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchang ... ency-union

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/publications/sc ... rt-options

Remember we are talking about 15% of Scotland economy.
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Northern Lights wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:29 am In other Scottish political news, Embra Uni and Hume...

Here is Massie's comment piece on it which I of course am in agreement with, personally reckon Embra Uni have fucked up on this one, hey ho I'm sure someone will disagree such is the intersting fabric of life.
A rigged reckoning with history is pointless
The self-abasement of Edinburgh University shows the futility of only judging our past through contemporary mores
Alex Massie
Monday September 14 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
Share
Save
Revolutionary zeal is always the precursor to absurdity for it is in the nature of such things that all perspective must, in time, be ceded to the madness of the moment. A corrective, however useful or even necessary it may initially be, eventually overreaches itself so thoroughly that it tarnishes the cause it first thought to advance.

And so, in September 2020, the University of Edinburgh did decree that the David Hume Tower, the tallest building on its central campus if not, perhaps, the most architecturally distinguished, would no longer be named in honour of Scotland’s most distinguished philosopher. Hume must fall, for he was guilty of thinking incorrectly, failing to anticipate that his views on race — to wit, the opinion that, as he put it in a footnote to his essay Of National Characters, “I am apt to suspect the negroes . . . to be naturally inferior to the whites” — might one day be considered appalling. Which, of course, they are. To us. But what of it?

This decision, an interim one, “has been taken because of the sensitivities around asking students to use a building named after the 18th-century philosopher whose comments on matters of race, though not uncommon at the time, rightly cause distress today”. Well, we have been here before, for this is the new spirit of the age. Strictly speaking, Hume has not been “cancelled” for, apart from other considerations, his books remain available in the university library and his place on the curriculum is, for now at any rate, still secure. Nevertheless, a gesture must be made and a signal sent. Hume won’t be the last of the guilty men.

It is hardly a matter of astonishment that a man born in 1711 held views that could be considered “problematic” in 2020. “Philosopher out of touch with public opinion 250 years after his death” is hardly news. If the standard applied to Hume was taken more generally, we would be required to eliminate every statue and every building, honouring every person born before our time. Not a single 18th-century man or even 18th-century woman could survive such a test unscathed. We would be denying our own history.

So what tests might be applied? The best, I think, has been suggested by Sunder Katwala, director of the think tank British Future. He recommends a straightforward series of questions: what is this person best known for? What is their principal achievement? What is actually being recognised by their memorialisation? Answer those questions and most of these fabricated controversies melt away.

Hence in the case of Edward Colston, the Bristol slaver unceremoniously torn from his pedestal in June, this was easily answered: Colston’s statue may have been erected in honour of his municipal philanthropy, but that generosity was in turn dependent upon the fruits of the slave trade. It seems reasonable to think the iniquity of slavery trumps the value of Colston’s generosity.

By contrast, Winston Churchill may have been, indeed was, a racist but no sane person thinks this the most germane fact of his life and career. These views, like his other shortcomings, may be thought blemishes but hardly the full picture. Remember them, for sure, but cancelling Churchill becomes a spectacular example of missing the wood for the trees.

This is true of ostensibly trickier cases too. Thus Henry Dundas, 1st Viscount Melville, who voted for the gradual abolition of slavery, is condemned for failing to support its abolition in the right way. The Melville monument in Edinburgh’s St Andrew Square was paid for by sailors and former members of the Royal Navy, commemorating Dundas’s service as first lord of the admiralty (and secretary of war) during the Napoleonic wars; service, you might think, which justifies some memorial. Instead, however, we are encouraged to judge the past, and find it wanting, as a binary matter, not as it was lived and in the round.

There is a showiness to this that is dispiriting. The young are entitled to their simplicity but adults — if there remain any — at the University of Edinburgh might think there little need to endorse the comforts of certainty in this fashion. Indeed, the moderating of such convictions might be thought one of the points of a university education. The world is a complicated place.

There is, I am afraid, a Year Zero brusqueness to these demands for “cancellation” or “decolonising” the curriculum. The past is an embarrassing place, populated by “problematic” people. If we abolish it, we may start afresh. Salting history makes a desert of it, however, and even the young could be expected to appreciate that just as they judge their forebears so they will in turn be judged themselves. Humanity has not yet reached a state of such perfection as to be deemed irreproachable by generations to come. Even today’s super-woke will one day be found wanting.

As for the university, one can only suspect its authorities felt the need to put on a performance. Lacking other subjects for atonement, they settled for Hume. A gesture was plainly deemed necessary, if only to prove the university’s willingness to prostrate itself before fashionable absurdity. This is craven, masochistic and thus entirely to be expected.

It is not even obvious that the university buckled in the face of overwhelming pressure to do something about its “problem”. A petition demanding the tower be renamed attracted fewer than 2,000 signatures. It could, I suspect, have been ignored. The university chose otherwise and we may surmise it did so because, at some level, it wished to make a performance of its own abasement. Only by doing so could it purge itself. Having done so, it breathes the sweet air of liberation.

In which light, and if only to highlight still further the absurdity of this sorry rigmarole, we might ponder the manner in which the petition initially suggested the tower might be renamed to honour Julius Nyerere, the Edinburgh graduate who became the first president of Tanzania. Alas, Nyerere was found to have held uncompromising views on homosexuality (and what you might deem a problematic attitude to multi-party democracy) and so that notion was quietly binned. You don’t have to find that funny, but I think it helps.

A reckoning with our own history might be useful but not if it is so thoroughly rigged as to ensure no figures from the past can ever pass it. Because, in the end, the real struggle is to remember history as it really was, not to pretend it can only be measured or judged by contemporary mores. You would think, or at least hope, that a university might appreciate that.
Wasn't Hume's schtick that decisions were driven by emotion rather than reason? He'd probably feel validated by this.

As many might know I'm fine with names and statues change. I don't agree that it is a rigged decision. We could investigate why Hume was by today's standards racist when society back then wasn't. Or we could consider if the reason society back then was racist was because the economists, industry capitans, politicians, jurists, and enlightened philosophers were all racist and so prejudice was not thought about at all. And as we know their theories on race are without shreds of evidence. So we're they the geniuses we presume they were.
I like neeps
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Reading the New Statesman and the editor asks once you have crossed the bridge to support independence why would you return?

Very eloquently put and the key question for No.
Slick
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This has got me wondering. The position of most PM’s has been that they don’t want to be the one in charge if the union breaks up and be forever remembered by history as the one who broke it. But is Boris’ lust to be forever remembered big enough for him to actually want to be that person?
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
TheNatalShark
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Slick wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:45 am This has got me wondering. The position of most PM’s has been that they don’t want to be the one in charge if the union breaks up and be forever remembered by history as the one who broke it. But is Boris’ lust to be forever remembered big enough for him to actually want to be that person?
That's a lot of work. It's difficult to be remembered as King of the World when some of your subjects successfully revolt. As much as he really doesn't give two figs of the plebs outside of middle England and London, his legacy won't be as grand as saviour of England vs branded Britain.

Do you think if we unveiled a statue of him "getting Brexit done" in Westminster he would fuck off?

God knows what comes next but put some decorative stakes around parliament and we may weed out the worst running for the job.
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