Kicking off in Israel

[fishfoodie]

Enough about the Israelis... what do you think about the Palestinians?

I'm trying to avoid posting as much as possible. Right now, seeing as I had a brother in law held hostage in Beiri, thankfully rescued (his wife and young son thankfully managed to get out whilst the attack was happening). A good friends brother is still missing and has had no contact since the attack happened, and a friend of my wife has already learned that at least one of her mentally handicapped brothers has been murdered, another is missing, and her elderly mother has been kidnapped into Gaza, that perhaps my perspective isn't the most balanced at this time.

Jesus. This is madness.

Hoping you and all your loved ones stay safe.

Ditto.

Hopefully you get some positive news soon.

It sounds like some of the Gulf states want to earn some brownie points, by acting as intermediaries, especially to secure the hostages, that would be very helpful.

[Ymx]

Hamas armed wing threatens to kill captives if Israel continues attacks without warning
Reuters
October 9, 20236:34 PM GMT+1Updated 17 min ago



GAZA, Oct 9 (Reuters) - Hamas' armed wing said on Monday it will begin executing an Israeli civilian captive in return for any new Israeli bombing of civilian houses without pre-warning.

Hamas armed wing spokesman Abu Ubaida said they have been acting in accordance with Islamic instructions by keeping the Israeli captives safe and sound, blaming the intended move on Israel's stepped-up bombing and killing of civilians inside their homes in air strikes without warning them.

[Ymx]

I’m uncertain of the precedent on Hamas releasing people. But I’d hazard a guess that the best chance of survival for these hostages would be by quick overwhelming special forces attacks.

[Uncle fester]

The Druze were always the most interesting group to me.

They've been there, & in other countries in the area forever, & the Jews don't fuck with them at all. They serve in the IDF, & manage their own villages, & the Arabs don't fuck with them either, because if you do that, you just disappear. They don't get treated nearly as well on Jordan, or Syria, or Lebanon.

They made their peace with the Jews, & kept their traditions & never left their land. The muslims had shit leaders, & ran away in the face of jewish terrorism, & they've never been able to reclaim their land as a result.

The whole area is a hodgepodge of very different groups. Druze have always had an impact well in excess of their actual numbers. Very insular people, not unlike the conservative Jews in that.

So different to the homogenised West.

[Raggs]

The Druze were always the most interesting group to me.

They've been there, & in other countries in the area forever, & the Jews don't fuck with them at all. They serve in the IDF, & manage their own villages, & the Arabs don't fuck with them either, because if you do that, you just disappear. They don't get treated nearly as well on Jordan, or Syria, or Lebanon.

They made their peace with the Jews, & kept their traditions & never left their land. The muslims had shit leaders, & ran away in the face of jewish terrorism, & they've never been able to reclaim their land as a result.

The whole area is a hodgepodge of very different groups. Druze have always had an impact well in excess of their actual numbers. Very insular people, not unlike the conservative Jews in that.

So different to the homogenised West.

I feel a lot more comfortable wondering a around a druze village/town than I do an Orthodox religious one. Well, lot more is the wrong wording, I feel comfortable walking around one, and very uncomfortable walking around the other.

[David in Gwent]

I'm not buying that line. The people of Gaza knew something like this would happen. It's not as though Hamas didn't operate from people's homes, garages, hospitals and schools.

And what exactly do you expect them to do about it? You think Hamas give a shit about them? They have the power, the guns and the depravity to hold control.

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head, it’s a fucking terrorist organisation. The people there have absolutely no say.

On another point, do you think Hamas can quite believe the effectiveness of their operation? They surely couldn’t have expected this kind of “success”.

I take it you didn't see the poor oppressed Palestinians cheering and celebrating over that poor German girl being paraded on the back of a truck. Or were they dancing at gunpoint?

[Slick]

And what exactly do you expect them to do about it? You think Hamas give a shit about them? They have the power, the guns and the depravity to hold control.

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head, it’s a fucking terrorist organisation. The people there have absolutely no say.

On another point, do you think Hamas can quite believe the effectiveness of their operation? They surely couldn’t have expected this kind of “success”.

I take it you didn't see the poor oppressed Palestinians cheers and celebrating over that poor German girl?

Yes I did. I’ve also seen Israelis set up parties on hills to watch and cheer on missile strikes on civilians in Gaza. Cunts gonna cunt.

By the way, I’ve also seen pictures of dead babies in Gaza on C4 news a minute ago, is that OK?

[David in Gwent]

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head, it’s a fucking terrorist organisation. The people there have absolutely no say.

On another point, do you think Hamas can quite believe the effectiveness of their operation? They surely couldn’t have expected this kind of “success”.

I take it you didn't see the poor oppressed Palestinians cheers and celebrating over that poor German girl?

Yes I did. I’ve also seen Israelis set up parties on hills to watch and cheer on missile strikes on civilians in Gaza. Cunts gonna cunt.

By the way, I’ve also seen pictures of dead babies in Gaza on C4 news a minute ago, is that OK?

I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are cunts on both sides, obviously, however, you minimising the behaviour of Gazans is naive, at best,

[Slick]

I take it you didn't see the poor oppressed Palestinians cheers and celebrating over that poor German girl?

Yes I did. I’ve also seen Israelis set up parties on hills to watch and cheer on missile strikes on civilians in Gaza. Cunts gonna cunt.

By the way, I’ve also seen pictures of dead babies in Gaza on C4 news a minute ago, is that OK?

I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are cunts on both sides, obviously, however, you minimising the behaviour of Gazans is naive, at best,

I’m not minimising anything you twat. I’m saying that not every Palestinian is a psychopathic murderer which is what you seem to be promoting in your black and white anti thought world

[David in Gwent]

Yes I did. I’ve also seen Israelis set up parties on hills to watch and cheer on missile strikes on civilians in Gaza. Cunts gonna cunt.

By the way, I’ve also seen pictures of dead babies in Gaza on C4 news a minute ago, is that OK?

I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are cunts on both sides, obviously, however, you minimising the behaviour of Gazans is naive, at best,

I’m not minimising anything you twat. I’m saying that not every Palestinian is a psychopathic murderer which is what you seem to be promoting in your black and white anti thought world

Bollocks - apparently all of the civilians have got guns to their heads according to you - classic minimising - and no where did I suggest they were all murderers, but yeah, you make shit up if you want too.

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head

[Uncle fester]

The Druze were always the most interesting group to me.

They've been there, & in other countries in the area forever, & the Jews don't fuck with them at all. They serve in the IDF, & manage their own villages, & the Arabs don't fuck with them either, because if you do that, you just disappear. They don't get treated nearly as well on Jordan, or Syria, or Lebanon.

They made their peace with the Jews, & kept their traditions & never left their land. The muslims had shit leaders, & ran away in the face of jewish terrorism, & they've never been able to reclaim their land as a result.

The whole area is a hodgepodge of very different groups. Druze have always had an impact well in excess of their actual numbers. Very insular people, not unlike the conservative Jews in that.

So different to the homogenised West.

I feel a lot more comfortable wondering a around a druze village/town than I do an Orthodox religious one. Well, lot more is the wrong wording, I feel comfortable walking around one, and very uncomfortable walking around the other.

Yeah they are creepy mofos.

[Slick]

I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are cunts on both sides, obviously, however, you minimising the behaviour of Gazans is naive, at best,

I’m not minimising anything you twat. I’m saying that not every Palestinian is a psychopathic murderer which is what you seem to be promoting in your black and white anti thought world

Bollocks - apparently all of the civilians have got guns to their heads according to you - classic minimising - and no where did I suggest they were all murderers, but yeah, you make shit up if you want too.

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head

Just go and read your conspiracy websites and leave the adults alone

[fishfoodie]

I’m not minimising anything you twat. I’m saying that not every Palestinian is a psychopathic murderer which is what you seem to be promoting in your black and white anti thought world

Bollocks - apparently all of the civilians have got guns to their heads according to you - classic minimising - and no where did I suggest they were all murderers, but yeah, you make shit up if you want too.

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head

Just go and read your conspiracy websites and leave the adults alone

Somewhere there is a care assistant bunking off

[David in Gwent]

I’m not minimising anything you twat. I’m saying that not every Palestinian is a psychopathic murderer which is what you seem to be promoting in your black and white anti thought world

Bollocks - apparently all of the civilians have got guns to their heads according to you - classic minimising - and no where did I suggest they were all murderers, but yeah, you make shit up if you want too.

Yup, I’ve seen this a lot - “why haven’t the Palestinians got rid of Hamas etc”. Because if they say or do anything they get a bullet in the back of the head

Just go and read your conspiracy websites and leave the adults alone

The people who spat on that girl in the back of that truck would take equal pleasure spitting on you if they had the chance.. But yeah, conspiracy theories.

[Ymx]

I think there’s times to be more balanced/neutral, but after a murderous rampage on civilians, I’d say anyone waving a Palestine flag on the back of this has to be a fvcking cvnt.

I’ve not seen Palestinian mutilated civilian bodies being paraded around by Israelis. And I’ve certainly not seen people waving Israeli flags across the world immediately after such an event. That would be equally fvcking sick.

[Ymx]

In this country

[David in Gwent]

Where is that?

[TB63]

Cwmbran..

[David in Gwent]

I wonder which country in Europe will get the first terrorist attack because sure as shit it's going to happen.

[Ymx]

Where is that?

Kensington High St, London according to the comments

[Guy Smiley]

I think there’s times to be more balanced/neutral, but after a murderous rampage on civilians, I’d say anyone waving a Palestine flag on the back of this has to be a fvcking cvnt.

I’ve not seen Palestinian mutilated civilian bodies being paraded around by Israelis. And I’ve certainly not seen people waving Israeli flags across the world immediately after such an event. That would be equally fvcking sick.

I'm sure you'll post a photo of it though, right?

[David in Gwent]

Where is that?

Kensington High St, London according to the comments

Thanks, didn't recognise it.

[goeagles]

I think there’s times to be more balanced/neutral, but after a murderous rampage on civilians, I’d say anyone waving a Palestine flag on the back of this has to be a fvcking cvnt.

I’ve not seen Palestinian mutilated civilian bodies being paraded around by Israelis. And I’ve certainly not seen people waving Israeli flags across the world immediately after such an event. That would be equally fvcking sick.

Thank you.

[petej]

I wonder which country in Europe will get the first terrorist attack because sure as shit it's going to happen.

What do you mean by first. Follow the money back to the oil rich gulf states as always. Nothing new. The same scum who bought erling haaland bought a shitload of these weapons for hamas.

[David in Gwent]

I wonder which country in Europe will get the first terrorist attack because sure as shit it's going to happen.

What do you mean by first. Follow the money back to the oil rich gulf states as always. Nothing new. The same scum who bought erling haaland bought a shitload of these weapons for hamas.

I mean the first since the War started at the weekend.

Celtic football fans on Saturday gone:

[Hugo]

Does the peace work that was undertaken in Northern Ireland provide any sort of template that can be used in the Middle East?

Or is the Israel/Palestine conflict a significantly more complicated situation where no comparison could possibly apply?

[Hugo]

. Terrorism also exists because of extreme beliefs in all kinds of subjects and NOT just because political policy and diplomacy fails.

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

It does.

Religious extremism doesn't need to rely the support of the masses, it's just takes a few individuals. Tell a few individuals that something happened and that the only response is to kill the people responsible, it's nothing to do with poverty and nothing to do with what they can lose, it's to do with manipulation, ideology and the fact that people have the ability to be downright evil.

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

[David in Gwent]

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

It does.

Religious extremism doesn't need to rely the support of the masses, it's just takes a few individuals. Tell a few individuals that something happened and that the only response is to kill the people responsible, it's nothing to do with poverty and nothing to do with what they can lose, it's to do with manipulation, ideology and the fact that people have the ability to be downright evil.

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

What do you mean by "with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?"

[David in Gwent]

Does the peace work that was undertaken in Northern Ireland provide any sort of template that can be used in the Middle East?

Or is the Israel/Palestine conflict a significantly more complicated situation where no comparison could possibly apply?

The UVF or the IRA never wrote a charter promising to cleanse the other from existence as Hamas did with Israel, so yeah, a bit different.

[fishfoodie]

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

It does.

Religious extremism doesn't need to rely the support of the masses, it's just takes a few individuals. Tell a few individuals that something happened and that the only response is to kill the people responsible, it's nothing to do with poverty and nothing to do with what they can lose, it's to do with manipulation, ideology and the fact that people have the ability to be downright evil.

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

Not really.

They used to do surveys of peoples attitudes to the paramilitaries during the Irish troubles, & there was very rarely what you'd call "support", for those who wanted to use violence to achieve their aims, in fact I pretty sure that the majority always favored non-violent means.

Actual support used to ebb & flow with the various atrocities, but the hard line support that never wavered in supporting violence first was < 10%*

The majority might support the overall aims, but disagreed with the means, & they would never actively support them, but they preferred to turn a blind eye.

On your other question; I don't think there's much chance of a peace settlement, but maybe they can take away from the Irish peace process, its that there has to keep being a dialog, & both sides need to hope for brave souls like Alex Reid, & Harold Good to offer themselves as go betweens.

* I can't remember the actual figures, but I think the figure was always single digit support

[petej]

It does.

Religious extremism doesn't need to rely the support of the masses, it's just takes a few individuals. Tell a few individuals that something happened and that the only response is to kill the people responsible, it's nothing to do with poverty and nothing to do with what they can lose, it's to do with manipulation, ideology and the fact that people have the ability to be downright evil.

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

Not really.

They used to do surveys of peoples attitudes to the paramilitaries during the Irish troubles, & there was very rarely what you'd call "support", for those who wanted to use violence to achieve their aims, in fact I pretty sure that the majority always favored non-violent means.

Actual support used to ebb & flow with the various atrocities, but the hard line support that never wavered in supporting violence first was < 10%*

The majority might support the overall aims, but disagreed with the means, & they would never actively support them, but they preferred to turn a blind eye.

On your other question; I don't think there's much chance of a peace settlement, but maybe they can take away from the Irish peace process, its that there has to keep being a dialog, & both sides need to hope for brave souls like Alex Reid, & Harold Good to offer themselves as go betweens.

* I can't remember the actual figures, but I think the figure was always single digit support

I might be wrong but you also had two states in the UK and Ireland both wanting peace plus USA and EU (being in the EU allowed for some fudging with the details) as guarantors. Even with that some 20+ years later there are still a small set of morons trying to restart it. You also have the weakening of religious influence outside of NI.

[BnM]

state of it

[Slick]

state of it

Is this seriously from today? If so, that’s absolutely appalling

[David in Gwent]

You should listen to the spiel given by the bloke from Pakistan.

Seriously, fuck those guys.

[fishfoodie]

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

Not really.

They used to do surveys of peoples attitudes to the paramilitaries during the Irish troubles, & there was very rarely what you'd call "support", for those who wanted to use violence to achieve their aims, in fact I pretty sure that the majority always favored non-violent means.

Actual support used to ebb & flow with the various atrocities, but the hard line support that never wavered in supporting violence first was < 10%*

The majority might support the overall aims, but disagreed with the means, & they would never actively support them, but they preferred to turn a blind eye.

On your other question; I don't think there's much chance of a peace settlement, but maybe they can take away from the Irish peace process, its that there has to keep being a dialog, & both sides need to hope for brave souls like Alex Reid, & Harold Good to offer themselves as go betweens.

* I can't remember the actual figures, but I think the figure was always single digit support

I might be wrong but you also had two states in the UK and Ireland both wanting peace plus USA and EU (being in the EU allowed for some fudging with the details) as guarantors. Even with that some 20+ years later there are still a small set of morons trying to restart it. You also have the weakening of religious influence outside of NI.

Yeah, the Nation states were all looking for a non-violent solution, & the 3rd parties fucking around, stirring things up was, more or less, eliminated with the fall of the USSR. The only caveat is that the internal politics in the UK Parties did fuck up progress, as to even suggest having talks with the IRA was politically unacceptable. In Majors case, because he was in coalition with the UUP, he couldn't engage with SF during their ceasefire, & lost the opportunity that Blair was able to grasp, because he was beholden to a bunch of cunts.

This is one of the biggest issues for Israel; their politics have more fractures than anything else, & to get into Government you have to make deals with the people who believe in the religious bullshit that has taken the region to this point.

The religious aspect in NI was always overstated. I always used to say to Yanks, that it wasn't the reason, it was just a simple way of identifying the sides.

If you want a justification just look at the composition of SF; they're all fucking Trots !

[David in Gwent]

I would suggest that one of the biggest issues for Israel is that they can only lose once not that they have some grubby politicians.

To even compare the current situation to the Troubles is just plain ridiculous.

[BnM]

And there it is.

[Paddington Bear]

Does the peace work that was undertaken in Northern Ireland provide any sort of template that can be used in the Middle East?

Or is the Israel/Palestine conflict a significantly more complicated situation where no comparison could possibly apply?

At the risk of being accused of minimising The Troubles, more people have probably died in Israel/Palestine since Saturday than did over c.30 years in NI. The IRA never massacred 200+ people in cold blood in a morning and the RAF never carpet bombed Derry.

This is before you look at the much lower levels of cultural ties, the fact Hamas etc have more significant foreign backing and that both sides have a much more justified feeling of existential threat. I’m not convinced there’s much to copy over.

Sadly the model over a longer span for resolving ethnic conflicts like this does IMO generally end with one side being kicked out the area/forcibly assimilated. Hamas are pretty explicit about this, mainstream Israeli opinion is more circumspect on this point but I can’t imagine behind closed doors they’d be the same.

[Hugo]

It does.

Religious extremism doesn't need to rely the support of the masses, it's just takes a few individuals. Tell a few individuals that something happened and that the only response is to kill the people responsible, it's nothing to do with poverty and nothing to do with what they can lose, it's to do with manipulation, ideology and the fact that people have the ability to be downright evil.

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

What do you mean by "with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?"

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/wes ... n-children

^ From over a month ago. 2023 has been the deadliest year for Palestinian children being killed by Israeli military/police. Most parents and communities are going to respond when their kids are being killed by the state.

[David in Gwent]

By their nature extremists are nutters obviously but surely they are operating from some base of broad support and with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?

What do you mean by "with some legitimacy attached to their grievances?"

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/wes ... n-children

^ From over a month ago. 2023 has been the deadliest year for Palestinian children being killed by Israeli military/police. Most parents and communities are going to respond when their kids are being killed by the state.

It's a sad loss of life but if it was my 17 year old "child" I'd make sure they weren't attacking military personnel, knowing that those military personnel could potentially open fire.