Kicking off in Israel

[C69]

You can't tell me they didn't chose that image accidentality.

Wow. Of all the imagery to use, they choose that one.

I am not aware of that imagery.
Can you please educate me.

[Sandstorm]

You can't tell me they didn't chose that image accidentality.

Wow. Of all the imagery to use, they choose that one.

I am not aware of that imagery.
Can you please educate me.

Hamas soldiers used them to cross the border on Saturday. Fairly inflammatory by BLMChicago…..

[C69]

Wow. Of all the imagery to use, they choose that one.

I am not aware of that imagery.
Can you please educate me.

Hamas soldiers used them to cross the border on Saturday. Fairly inflammatory by BLMChicago…..

Thanks

[sockwithaticket]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

[David in Gwent]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Some would suggest it's actually an advantage to portray yourself as decentralised.

[Sandstorm]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

[David in Gwent]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

The invasion was a tactical masterclass, you can only do that with disciplined men. They just really hate Jews.

[sockwithaticket]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

I was talking about BLMChicago using an image that you'd imagine wouldn't get past a more integrated leadership.

Although there are some of my fellow lefties who are apparently incapable of doing anything but offering full throated support to Palestine come what may, some of us definitely don't and others are at least pragmatic enough to know that that imagery is fucking terrible idea.

[Sandstorm]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

I was talking about BLMChicago using an image that you'd imagine wouldn't get past a more integrated leadership.

Although there are some of my fellow lefties who are apparently incapable of doing anything but offering full throated support to Palestine come what may, some of us definitely don't and others are at least pragmatic enough to know that that imagery is fucking terrible idea.

[C69]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

I was talking about BLMChicago using an image that you'd imagine wouldn't get past a more integrated leadership.

Although there are some of my fellow lefties who are apparently incapable of doing anything but offering full throated support to Palestine come what may, some of us definitely don't and others are at least pragmatic enough to know that that imagery is fucking terrible idea.

Support for the Palestinian people is not the same as support for HAMAS

[sockwithaticket]

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

I was talking about BLMChicago using an image that you'd imagine wouldn't get past a more integrated leadership.

Although there are some of my fellow lefties who are apparently incapable of doing anything but offering full throated support to Palestine come what may, some of us definitely don't and others are at least pragmatic enough to know that that imagery is fucking terrible idea.

Support for the Palestinian people is not the same as support for HAMAS

No it's not, but you know as well as I do that some of the discourse in the left around this isn't making that kind of distinction. A band I'm into retweeted this after it became clear that civillians were being kidnapped, raped and executed.

from atlanta to palestine and across the world, people on the underside of power who resist state violence and occupation will always be called terrorists.

Now, it's true that resistance movements do get branded whatever's convenient by those in power to try and demonise them, but this isn't one of those times. As we've been discussing to death, these latest actions by Hamas were not targetting the Israeli apparatus or representatives of state and will do nothing favourable for the Palestinian people. It's pure terror tactics.

I've seen plenty of similar commentary along the lines of 'what do you expect of a repressed people other than lashing out' and I do have sympathy for the idea of lashing out against the oppressor - we have seen in the past many instances of engaging the Israeli security forces through frustration rather than good judgement or specific tactical aim- but there are limits as to what can be excused by that and an obviously well planned terror operation falls outside them.

[petej]

One of the disadvantages of being a decentralised movement, local groups can do whatever they feel like and drag the umbrella name through the mud.

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

The invasion was a tactical masterclass, you can only do that with disciplined men. They just really hate Jews.

Bit early to say that and from whose perspective. If the aim was to force the Israelis out then I expect it will be a miserable failure.

[Lobby]

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

The invasion was a tactical masterclass, you can only do that with disciplined men. They just really hate Jews.

Bit early to say that and from whose perspective. If the aim was to force the Israelis out then I expect it will be a miserable failure.

I don't think that was the aim at all. The aim was to kill, maim and capture as many Israelis as possible to excite and delight their supporters, and to provoke the Israelis into a monstrous and destructive overreaction. From that perspective it has been very successful

[Sandstorm]

I don't think that was the aim at all. The aim was to kill, maim and capture as many Israelis as possible to excite and delight their supporters, and to provoke the Israelis into a monstrous and destructive overreaction. From that perspective it has been very successful

Indeed. I think the idea didn't come from within Gaza either. Someone else is pulling the strings and the civilian Palestinians are going to get hammered.

[assfly]

I agree that the planning and execution of the plan was strategically well done. Especially going under the radar of Israeli intelligence. I would love to find out how they did it.

As for the long-term objectives and the outcomes of the plan, I don't know what Hamas want to achieve. Of course they will get a massive retaliation from Israel and many more Palestinians will die than Israelis. After that, then what happens? They're stuck with an Israel that is going to to take an even harder stance against them, building of settlements will accelerate, conditions in Gaza will worsen, etc. And they will have lost a significant amount of goodwill based on their actions of the first few days.

[David in Gwent]

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

The invasion was a tactical masterclass, you can only do that with disciplined men. They just really hate Jews.

Bit early to say that and from whose perspective. If the aim was to force the Israelis out then I expect it will be a miserable failure.

I linked a video about it earlier in the thread. I'm just talking about the first few hours of the Hamas operation, really remarkable.

The motorcycle squads, dressed as IDF was jaw dropping, as was dropping grenades onto watch towers and Comms stations via drones.

[Sandstorm]

building of settlements will accelerate

This one might slow down. Israel will pullback their people from the borders close to West Bank and Gaza and just introduce huge no-mans-land areas patrolled with tanks and F16s.
No-one will want to live near to Iron Wall when the Hamas soldiers can quickly attack them again.

[David in Gwent]

Hamas "Senior Management" can't really moan now, when their soldiers went ape-shit violent during the invasion last week. I don't see them as a very disciplined group of men.

I was talking about BLMChicago using an image that you'd imagine wouldn't get past a more integrated leadership.

Although there are some of my fellow lefties who are apparently incapable of doing anything but offering full throated support to Palestine come what may, some of us definitely don't and others are at least pragmatic enough to know that that imagery is fucking terrible idea.

Support for the Palestinian people is not the same as support for HAMAS

It's not, however, you have a issue where a certain percentage of Palestinian people do support Hamas so equally you can't absolve ALL Palestinian people of blame.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

building of settlements will accelerate

This one might slow down. Israel will pullback their people from the borders close to West Bank and Gaza and just introduce huge no-mans-land areas patrolled with tanks and F16s.
No-one will want to live near to Iron Wall when the Hamas soldiers can quickly attack them again.

Also both Israel and Saudi will want to revisit their recent talks. And Israel will know there are problems in making the situation harder for the Saudis

[David in Gwent]

I agree that the planning and execution of the plan was strategically well done. Especially going under the radar of Israeli intelligence. I would love to find out how they did it.

Pens, paper and face to face meetings, no tech whatsoever, no chatter, no key words, nothing.

2 men cut through the fence using a digger - then went in the motorbike squads, then went in the fast troop carriers (all dressed as IDF), then went in the motorised para-gliders at the same time the observation towers and comms stations were taken out by drones. They even kidnapped a fucking IDF major from an IDF patrol base in his fucking underpants.

They haven't shown you this yet as it's just humiliating.

I presume Mossad will eventually find out how they got the munitions for the drones (probably Ukraine) which managed to take out 6 tanks! and the people involved will be involved in a nasty yachting accident at some point in the future.

[BnM]

You can't tell me they didn't chose that image accidentality.

Wow. Of all the imagery to use, they choose that one.

I am not aware of that imagery.
Can you please educate me.

That's how they attacked the music festival. Clearly civilian target.

[assfly]

building of settlements will accelerate

This one might slow down. Israel will pullback their people from the borders close to West Bank and Gaza and just introduce huge no-mans-land areas patrolled with tanks and F16s.
No-one will want to live near to Iron Wall when the Hamas soldiers can quickly attack them again.

I didn't say anyone is going to live in the settlements! They may do it just to claim the land, there are many parts of Israel with empty buildings.
I suspect Israel are going to do some serious damage to Hamas in the coming weeks.

[Sandstorm]

building of settlements will accelerate

This one might slow down. Israel will pullback their people from the borders close to West Bank and Gaza and just introduce huge no-mans-land areas patrolled with tanks and F16s.
No-one will want to live near to Iron Wall when the Hamas soldiers can quickly attack them again.

I didn't say anyone is going to live in the settlements! They may do it just to claim the land, there are many parts of Israel with empty buildings.
I suspect Israel are going to do some serious damage to Hamas in the coming weeks.

Indeed

[C69]

Wow. Of all the imagery to use, they choose that one.

I am not aware of that imagery.
Can you please educate me.

That's how they attacked the music festival. Clearly civilian target.

It's certainly a fucking crass image.
Fucking morons

[assfly]

Slightly off topic, but wasn't there a thread many moons go about beautiful female IDF soldiers?

Asking for a friend.

[David in Gwent]

I agree that the planning and execution of the plan was strategically well done. Especially going under the radar of Israeli intelligence. I would love to find out how they did it.

Pens, paper and face to face meetings, no tech whatsoever, no chatter, no key words, nothing.

2 men cut through the fence using a digger - then went in the motorbike squads, then went in the fast troop carriers (all dressed as IDF), then went in the motorised para-gliders at the same time the observation towers and comms stations were taken out by drones. They even kidnapped a fucking IDF major from an IDF patrol base in his fucking underpants.

They haven't shown you this yet as it's just humiliating.

I presume Mossad will eventually find out how they got the munitions for the drones (probably Ukraine) which managed to take out 6 tanks! and the people involved will be involved in a nasty yachting accident at some point in the future.

Ukraine gave Hamas drones. ? Your knickers are showing again Dave

Nope, I'm saying the munitions that the drones carried probably came from the Ukraine conflict.

[C69]

So the blockades mean that Gaza's only power plant has run out of fuel.
Dear fuck this is going to be a humanitarian disaster.
Israel upping their game here with electricity targeted. Benni true to his word it seems.
This seems a bit of collective punishment, what next water and fuel?

[Sandstorm]

Nope, I'm saying the munitions that the drones carried probably came from the Ukraine conflict.

Or Lebanon. Or Chile. Or Tatooine.
Anyone can make up shit.

[David in Gwent]

Nope, I'm saying the munitions that the drones carried probably came from the Ukraine conflict.

Or Lebanon. Or Chile. Or Tatooine.
Anyone can make up shit.

Not on ignore then?

These are specialised anti armour munitions - let's think for a moment where a lot of anti-armour munitions are available "off the back of a lorry" at the moment.

Hint, it's not fucking Chile

[Raggs]

So the blockades mean that Gaza's only power plant has run out of fuel.
Dear fuck this is going to be a humanitarian disaster.
Israel upping their game here with electricity targeted. Benni true to his word it seems.
This seems a bit of collective punishment, what next water and fuel?

Maybe their allies can send it through Egypt, and pressure Egypt to look after them, rather than the people they're at war with.

[Sandstorm]

Nope, I'm saying the munitions that the drones carried probably came from the Ukraine conflict.

Or Lebanon. Or Chile. Or Tatooine.
Anyone can make up shit.

Not on ignore then?

These are specialised anti armour munitions - let's think for a moment where a lot of anti-armour munitions are available "off the back of a lorry" at the moment.

I hate to buy into one of your numerous conspiracy theories,, but Zelensky did sack a large number of his army for corruption lately....but wasn't specific about what they did.

No wait, that was for inflating the price of eggs! As if Ukraine don't need those munitions to beat back the Russians instead. Loon.

[David in Gwent]

Or Lebanon. Or Chile. Or Tatooine.
Anyone can make up shit.

Not on ignore then?

These are specialised anti armour munitions - let's think for a moment where a lot of anti-armour munitions are available "off the back of a lorry" at the moment.

I hate to buy into one of your numerous conspiracy theories,, but Zelensky did sack a large number of his army for corruption lately....but wasn't specific about what they did.

No wait, that was for inflating the price of eggs! As if Ukraine don't need those munitions to beat back the Russians instead. Loon.

Why is it a conspiracy theory? if you need munitions and you don't really want to get an invoice or issue a PO go to where there are fuckloads of munitions and a state of war accounting procedure, ie, none. I'm actually feeling second hand embarrassment for you at this stage.

[C69]

So the blockades mean that Gaza's only power plant has run out of fuel.
Dear fuck this is going to be a humanitarian disaster.
Israel upping their game here with electricity targeted. Benni true to his word it seems.
This seems a bit of collective punishment, what next water and fuel?

Maybe their allies can send it through Egypt, and pressure Egypt to look after them, rather than the people they're at war with.

Maybe, however I believe that cutting food to a mass of civilian people is an act of barbarism and against international law
If both sides take an eye for an eye both sides will become blind.
A medieval type blockade is certainly a novel way to react to terrorism.

Apparently 500,000 people didn't get the rations from closed food distribution centres this week.


Tha said I can't see any Israeli leaders negotiating with such savages as the HAMAS leadership.

[Raggs]

So the blockades mean that Gaza's only power plant has run out of fuel.
Dear fuck this is going to be a humanitarian disaster.
Israel upping their game here with electricity targeted. Benni true to his word it seems.
This seems a bit of collective punishment, what next water and fuel?

Maybe their allies can send it through Egypt, and pressure Egypt to look after them, rather than the people they're at war with.

Maybe, however I believe that cutting food to a mass of civilian people is an act of barbarism and against international law
If both sides take an eye for an eye both sides will become blind.
A medieval type blockade is certainly a novel way to react to terrorism.

Apparently 500,000 people didn't get the rations from closed food distribution centres this week.


Tha said I can't see any Israeli leaders negotiating with such savages as the HAMAS leadership.

They aren't cutting food off. As pointed out, 40% of goods came through Egypt in June. I'm sure that can be increased given the circumstances.

Should Israel really be expected to continue to supply a country it's at war with, with supplies? A country who's current stance towards them is one of extermination, and barbarism?

If Israel was the only possible source, then sure, but they aren't.

[David in Gwent]

Maybe their allies can send it through Egypt, and pressure Egypt to look after them, rather than the people they're at war with.

Maybe, however I believe that cutting food to a mass of civilian people is an act of barbarism and against international law
If both sides take an eye for an eye both sides will become blind.
A medieval type blockade is certainly a novel way to react to terrorism.

Apparently 500,000 people didn't get the rations from closed food distribution centres this week.


Tha said I can't see any Israeli leaders negotiating with such savages as the HAMAS leadership.

Not a chance they will do anything but make shit of Gaza. It is burned into their psyche perceived lost chances to resist during WW2. No quarter will be given

You say that but in 2 weeks or 2 months, whatever it is the water and power will be turned back on and the whole process will start again until the next conflict and the next conflict after that.

[Big D]

Should Israel really be expected to continue to supply a country it's at war with, with supplies? A country who's current stance towards them is one of extermination, and barbarism?

If Israel was the only possible source, then sure, but they aren't.

Given Hamas openly want to obliterate Israel I wouldn't have blamed them for doing it sooner.

Saw this tweet from an old video.https://x.com/Kevin__McMahon/status/171 ... 62198?s=20

Must be uncomfortable for Jews when there are terrorist organisations out there who want you dead and it is supported by people all over the world.

[petej]

Pens, paper and face to face meetings, no tech whatsoever, no chatter, no key words, nothing.

2 men cut through the fence using a digger - then went in the motorbike squads, then went in the fast troop carriers (all dressed as IDF), then went in the motorised para-gliders at the same time the observation towers and comms stations were taken out by drones. They even kidnapped a fucking IDF major from an IDF patrol base in his fucking underpants.

They haven't shown you this yet as it's just humiliating.

I presume Mossad will eventually find out how they got the munitions for the drones (probably Ukraine) which managed to take out 6 tanks! and the people involved will be involved in a nasty yachting accident at some point in the future.

Ukraine gave Hamas drones. ? Your knickers are showing again Dave

Nope, I'm saying the munitions that the drones carried probably came from the Ukraine conflict.

You said Ukraine initially not Ukraine conflict which is very different. Of the two parties in that conflict one is far, far more corrupt (not that there isn't corruption in Ukraine).

[C69]

Maybe their allies can send it through Egypt, and pressure Egypt to look after them, rather than the people they're at war with.

Maybe, however I believe that cutting food to a mass of civilian people is an act of barbarism and against international law
If both sides take an eye for an eye both sides will become blind.
A medieval type blockade is certainly a novel way to react to terrorism.

Apparently 500,000 people didn't get the rations from closed food distribution centres this week.


Tha said I can't see any Israeli leaders negotiating with such savages as the HAMAS leadership.

They aren't cutting food off. As pointed out, 40% of goods came through Egypt in June. I'm sure that can be increased given the circumstances.

Should Israel really be expected to continue to supply a country it's at war with, with supplies? A country who's current stance towards them is one of extermination, and barbarism?

If Israel was the only possible source, then sure, but they aren't.

Sorry to be clear I was paraphrasing Josep Borrell EU foreign policy chief who stated the actions were a clear violation of international law.
He acknowledged like most people do that "Israel's actions were a direct consequence of what HAMAS did".

It's old Testament stuff, revenge and punishment of Gazans.

[Raggs]

Sorry to be clear I was paraphrasing Josep Borrell EU foreign policy chief who stated the actions were a clear violation of international law.
He acknowledged like most people do that "Israel's actions were a direct consequence of what HAMAS did".

It's old Testament stuff, revenge and punishment of Gazans.

I do wonder though. If there wasn't a border with Egypt, I'd absolutely agree with you. Even now I mostly agree. But over the past years Hamas have built hundreds of tunnels, complete with electricity, pipework etc. That infrastructure could surely have been put to the use of importing gas/fuel/water/electricity from Egypt. Even now they get a large portion of goods from Egypt (well, maybe not right now).

In short, why isn't Egypt in the dock for violating international law? Why is it Israel is violating international law by not supplying goods, but Egypt isn't?

[C69]

Sorry to be clear I was paraphrasing Josep Borrell EU foreign policy chief who stated the actions were a clear violation of international law.
He acknowledged like most people do that "Israel's actions were a direct consequence of what HAMAS did".

It's old Testament stuff, revenge and punishment of Gazans.

I do wonder though. If there wasn't a border with Egypt, I'd absolutely agree with you. Even now I mostly agree. But over the past years Hamas have built hundreds of tunnels, complete with electricity, pipework etc. That infrastructure could surely have been put to the use of importing gas/fuel/water/electricity from Egypt. Even now they get a large portion of goods from Egypt (well, maybe not right now).

In short, why isn't Egypt in the dock for violating international law? Why is it Israel is violating international law by not supplying goods, but Egypt isn't?

Ask the EU and the UN.