World Rugby kills world rugby

[Fonz]

Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

All of this, except for the last paragraph; Japan deserves more respect than Italy, at the very least.

But yes, playing Tier 1 teams for developmental purposes is highly overrated IMO. I think it MIGHT help for PR purposes — both for us (“we’re important!”) and you (because let’s face it, you can only get so excited about playing the same 10 teams for decades, plus rugby needs to convey the notion it’s growing) — but only that.

I think you hit the nail on the head in the second paragraph, except I’d offer that “higher level competition” isn’t even a necessary component; these guys just need continuity and familiarity. Rugby truly is a great team sport, that shit matters a lot.

[Biffer]

A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

Like the european nations cup, which is played every year, between tier 2 teams, has a lot of tight games, is available for free online?

How many of those games do you watch?

[PCPhil]

Looks half reasonable IMHO. Gives tier 2 regular comp with TV money that should allow them to pay home based players rather than watch the few waltz off to overseas contracts. Devil in the detail of course.

However, I realise I may be in the minority

Why is it always the Welsh who love these dumb ideas?

Dunno, glad I'm not Welsh though.

[sockwithaticket]

Devil’s advocate on this (I have not read the proposal in depth): doesn’t this essentially maintain the autumn status quo? Do tier 2 teams genuinely develop for having the odd autumn test against tier 1 sides? Portugal have almost never played a proper tier 1 side outside a world cup and looked pretty handy. Wouldn’t a genuine tier 2 competitive competition be better for them?

Fwiw the big issue with relegation here is that only Fiji, Japan, Italy and maybe Argentina can ever be relegated, for anyone else they’d change the format

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

All of this, except for the last paragraph; Japan deserves more respect than Italy, at the very least.

But yes, playing Tier 1 teams for developmental purposes is highly overrated IMO. I think it MIGHT help for PR purposes — both for us (“we’re important!”) and you (because let’s face it, you can only get so excited about playing the same 10 teams for decades, plus rugby needs to convey the notion it’s growing) — but only that.

I think you hit the nail on the head in the second paragraph, except I’d offer that “higher level competition” isn’t even a necessary component; these guys just need continuity and familiarity. Rugby truly is a great team sport, that shit matters a lot.

Italy shouldn't be there either, but being 6N members they were never going to be excluded. Japan had an amazing 2019 world cup and one great result at 2015. Outside of those tournaments their results have been worse than Italy's.

When I say higher level of competition, I mean higher than amateur or semi-pro that they would otherwise be playing. The simple thing of beng able to professionalise and focus on playing rugby to that extent means their level will rise pretty quickly compared to those who have to fit it in alongside other means of making a living.

[sockwithaticket]

However, I realise I may be in the minority

Why is it always the Welsh who love these dumb ideas?

Dunno, glad I'm not Welsh though.

I'd report that kind of slander to Zapp.

[PCPhil]

Why is it always the Welsh who love these dumb ideas?

Dunno, glad I'm not Welsh though.

I'd report that kind of slander to Zapp.

From my side I don't want to impune the ability of Welsh people to function in a modern, civilised society. Some of them can do things almost as well as English people.

[C69]

Racist cunts

[Sandstorm]

Racist cunts

You misheard him, he said "whales"

[JM2K6]

A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

Like the european nations cup, which is played every year, between tier 2 teams, has a lot of tight games, is available for free online?

How many of those games do you watch?

Right, no one would care about these beyond a short initial period.

[Simian]

A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

Like the european nations cup, which is played every year, between tier 2 teams, has a lot of tight games, is available for free online?

How many of those games do you watch?

Yup. The mismatch between the number of people who say they’d love to watch a competition among T2 sides and the number who actually watch the competitions that currently exist is pretty striking!

[laurent]

A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

Like the european nations cup, which is played every year, between tier 2 teams, has a lot of tight games, is available for free online?

How many of those games do you watch?

Yup. The mismatch between the number of people who say they’d love to watch a competition among T2 sides and the number who actually watch the competitions that currently exist is pretty striking!

I did watch Moldavia - Turkey this year

And a few others before (even Georgian games with Georgian commentary)

[Sandstorm]

A proper Tier 2 Test competition played on Thursday evenings and available free-to-air globally would generate loads of interest I reckon.

Like the european nations cup, which is played every year, between tier 2 teams, has a lot of tight games, is available for free online?

How many of those games do you watch?

Yup. The mismatch between the number of people who say they’d love to watch a competition among T2 sides and the number who actually watch the competitions that currently exist is pretty striking!

Well I had no idea this was the case! Advertise it FFS. This is a Rugby Board and we barely mention it.

[Biffer]

Like the european nations cup, which is played every year, between tier 2 teams, has a lot of tight games, is available for free online?

How many of those games do you watch?

Yup. The mismatch between the number of people who say they’d love to watch a competition among T2 sides and the number who actually watch the competitions that currently exist is pretty striking!

Well I had no idea this was the case! Advertise it FFS. This is a Rugby Board and we barely mention it.

What, like this you mean?
http://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php ... cdeaa53484

[Paddington Bear]

There’s a huge difference between something that’s packaged and marketed and something being available on youtube. Let’s assume Amazon are the tv rights behind this new league, if they show the odd t2 game at a good time I’d definitely watch. Watching through youtube is for pthe properly committed/desperate

[Biffer]

There’s a huge difference between something that’s packaged and marketed and something being available on youtube. Let’s assume Amazon are the tv rights behind this new league, if they show the odd t2 game at a good time I’d definitely watch. Watching through youtube is for pthe properly committed/desperate

They’re not interested in people watching the odd game.

And if it was on Amazon, their other games wouldn’t be available elsewhere. So they’d have even less coverage than previously.

I can’t believe the naive way people seem to think the folk behind this have any interest in developing rugby.

[Paddington Bear]

There’s a huge difference between something that’s packaged and marketed and something being available on youtube. Let’s assume Amazon are the tv rights behind this new league, if they show the odd t2 game at a good time I’d definitely watch. Watching through youtube is for pthe properly committed/desperate

They’re not interested in people watching the odd game.

And if it was on Amazon, their other games wouldn’t be available elsewhere. So they’d have even less coverage than previously.

I can’t believe the naive way people seem to think the folk behind this have any interest in developing rugby.

I don’t, I just think it’s bollocks to pretend the odd autumn game is developing t2 rugby

[PCPhil]

There’s a huge difference between something that’s packaged and marketed and something being available on youtube. Let’s assume Amazon are the tv rights behind this new league, if they show the odd t2 game at a good time I’d definitely watch. Watching through youtube is for pthe properly committed/desperate

They’re not interested in people watching the odd game.

And if it was on Amazon, their other games wouldn’t be available elsewhere. So they’d have even less coverage than previously.

I can’t believe the naive way people seem to think the folk behind this have any interest in developing rugby.

I don’t, I just think it’s bollocks to pretend the odd autumn game is developing t2 rugby

[Fonz]

I actually agree with this. Tier 2 nations competing against closely matched countries, improving together is better for them than getting smashed by the upper eschelons of tier 1.

It's the Super Rugby America and Rugby Europe Super Cup enabling some of the South American and European players to play at a higher level week in week out and to professionalise that will have done more for them than occasional beastings by teams who are closing in on 30 years of official professionalism.


Japan are very, very fortunate to be included in the tier 1 competition and predict that they'll be the whipping boys.

All of this, except for the last paragraph; Japan deserves more respect than Italy, at the very least.

But yes, playing Tier 1 teams for developmental purposes is highly overrated IMO. I think it MIGHT help for PR purposes — both for us (“we’re important!”) and you (because let’s face it, you can only get so excited about playing the same 10 teams for decades, plus rugby needs to convey the notion it’s growing) — but only that.

I think you hit the nail on the head in the second paragraph, except I’d offer that “higher level competition” isn’t even a necessary component; these guys just need continuity and familiarity. Rugby truly is a great team sport, that shit matters a lot.

Italy shouldn't be there either, but being 6N members they were never going to be excluded. Japan had an amazing 2019 world cup and one great result at 2015. Outside of those tournaments their results have been worse than Italy's.

When I say higher level of competition, I mean higher than amateur or semi-pro that they would otherwise be playing. The simple thing of beng able to professionalise and focus on playing rugby to that extent means their level will rise pretty quickly compared to those who have to fit it in alongside other means of making a living.

Well, Japan also did better this year too, making it not only three RWCs in a row superior to Italy’s (in fact, all superior to ANY Italian RWC campaign ever), but the three most recent…Italy is also the only team involved that’s never made a QF. But I don’t really have an issue with the notion all these sides are Tier 1. Even among the original 5N+Tri-Nations there’s some stratification.

As for the level of competition, my point was moreso that the minnows have something of a leveler in that many of the emerging nations in those comps you name have very few pro (or pro-ish) sides, such that all their top players may be spread on as few as one or two teams…like 2/3rds of the Uruguayan team play for Peñarol, for instance. So it’s not just that pro environment, but building a team (as such) by nurturing that core group in that environment, which is a model we’re seeing in a lot of emerging nations. But I digress.

[goeagles]

Some thoughts re: T2 vs T2 competition and T2 vs T1 competition

T2 nations can't just wait around complaining. We need to build genuine competitions. REC (formerly ENC) is great in Europe but needs more focus on building crowds, playing in quality stadia and engaging sponsors. They should also consider hosting a European Championship in Lions years. Invite the 6N teams and if they don't want to come, that's on them. Promote it as the Rugby Euros for sponsors and fans whether they come or not. The Americas 6N also needs to come back, although politics may prevent that.

As far as T1 matchups go, the T2 teams need it to test themselves occasionally but they also need it to attract players at the top level. A couple good examples of where something is seriously wrong with international rugby are the cases of Anton Segner and Fabian Holland. Segner is German and Holland is Dutch. Both went down to NZ towards the end of their high school years and now are aiming to be All Blacks. Part of that is the allure of the ABs brand but part of that is that they are elite players who want to test themselves against elite competition. Germany and the Netherlands don't get that type of competition so it's understandable from the player point of view, but from the view of the international game it's a travesty. You don't see Mkhitaryan playing for Italy or Haaland for England just because their country's international teams are poor. However, this is where a 24 team RWC helps to some extent. The draw of playing in a RWC against top teams is a draw for players and you find some heritage players sticking their hands up who otherwise might not. While most of Portugal was homegrown, there were also some key players from France with Portuguese ancestry, namely Samuel Marques. I'd expect some players to come out of the woodwork for various nations who now have a chance to qualify in a 24 team RWC, particularly for the Dutch, and maybe Holland will turn up if he doesn't become an AB.

Lastly, the one place where it's totally reasonable to demand more inclusion is at the age grade levels. I can understand the arguments against changing the 6N at senior level, but the U20 6N is not some sacred cow. Georgia routinely beat 6N sides at that level and Spain and Portugal can be reasonably competitive there too (Spain just finished above Scotland in the U20 Trophy and will be in the U20 Championship next year).