Kicking off in Israel

[Uncle fester]

Before and after satellite photos.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... dApp_Other

[Raggs]

Video of the iron Dome working hard on a rocket barrage. It's supposed to target rockets that'll hit buildings rather than open ground, but with that volume of rockets it wouldn't surprise me if it gets overwhelmed.

[C69]

According to Hamas 50 Israeli hostages killed in the decimation of Gaza by the IDF

Will this make any difference to Israeli tactics if their actions directly lead to the death of the HAMAS prisoners?

Crazy shit going on.

I believe Israel is generally more reluctant to negotiate with terrorists than other countries so doubt if tactics will change, even if Hamas use women and children hostages as human shields. Not that you should belive the figures from Hamas, they are also adamant that they did not kill any civilians

lol it's as believable as Israel saying they aren't targetting civilians or collectively punishing Palestinain women and children and sick and infirmed.
Both sides have no rspect for human life and hopefully after this settles down the leaders will be at the Hague if they survive that is.

[Slick]

Obviously, a completely different scale of problem here, but didn't Israel release over 1000 Palestinian prisoners for just one IDF corporal after negotiations a decade or so ago?

They've definitely negotiated with terrorists for hostage release in the past. Clearly a problem of scale here though and hardened attitudes after October 7th though.

Yeah, it has been going on quietly for, and sometimes not so quietly, for years.

There is probably a huge amount of negotiation going on in the background, but it does almost seem to be the Israeli's have drawn a line in the sand, called Hamas' bluff, whatever you want to call it, and are out to show they won't bow down or be put off by hostage taking.

[Line6 HXFX]

Hawkeye: War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
Father Mulcahy: How do you figure that, Hawkeye?
Hawkeye: Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?
Father Mulcahy: Sinners, I believe.
Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them — little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.

[BnM]

Watching the news and I don't recall UNs rhetoric being like that when Ukraine was invaded. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just don't recall the focus on people and suffering, it was all on Putin.

[Calculon]

[Calculon]

According to Hamas 50 Israeli hostages killed in the decimation of Gaza by the IDF

Will this make any difference to Israeli tactics if their actions directly lead to the death of the HAMAS prisoners?

Crazy shit going on.

I believe Israel is generally more reluctant to negotiate with terrorists than other countries so doubt if tactics will change, even if Hamas use women and children hostages as human shields. Not that you should belive the figures from Hamas, they are also adamant that they did not kill any civilians

lol it's as believable as Israel saying they aren't targetting civilians or collectively punishing Palestinain women and children and sick and infirmed.
Both sides have no rspect for human life and hopefully after this settles down the leaders will be at the Hague if they survive that is.

Well if Israel had the same respect for human life as Hamas every single Palestinian would be tortured, burned alive, beheaded, raped, killed and they would be celebrating in the streets of Tel Aviv

[C69]

I believe Israel is generally more reluctant to negotiate with terrorists than other countries so doubt if tactics will change, even if Hamas use women and children hostages as human shields. Not that you should belive the figures from Hamas, they are also adamant that they did not kill any civilians

lol it's as believable as Israel saying they aren't targetting civilians or collectively punishing Palestinain women and children and sick and infirmed.
Both sides have no rspect for human life and hopefully after this settles down the leaders will be at the Hague if they survive that is.

Well if Israel had the same respect for human life as Hamas every single Palestinian would be tortured, burned alive, beheaded, raped, killed and they would be celebrating in the streets of Tel Aviv

Don't you agree that after the War has ended all atrocities and breaches of international law and possible war crimes shouldbe looked at?
Objectively it is clear both sides are lead by murderous bastards that need to be held to account for their actions.

[Line6 HXFX]

Only one side is the Invader. Occupier. Instigater, provocateur whipst one side is being held in an open air prison and starved. Only one side wants war because peace isn't profitable.

This isn't a "both sides" thing. It's a France under Nazi control, with the use of extermination camps thing.

[C69]

Well Israel are certainly winning the propaganda war.
Lots of useful idiots lapping up this sort of shit it seems.

[Calculon]

lol it's as believable as Israel saying they aren't targetting civilians or collectively punishing Palestinain women and children and sick and infirmed.
Both sides have no rspect for human life and hopefully after this settles down the leaders will be at the Hague if they survive that is.

Well if Israel had the same respect for human life as Hamas every single Palestinian would be tortured, burned alive, beheaded, raped, killed and they would be celebrating in the streets of Tel Aviv

Don't you agree that after the War has ended all atrocities and breaches of international law and possible war crimes shouldbe looked at?
Objectively it is clear both sides are lead by murderous bastards that need to be held to account for their actions.

Yes, I do believe the Israeli courts should look into any war crime/atrocity. Afraid, I don't know anything about "international law". What does it's clauses say? Who uphelds and enforces it? Seems like fantasy to me. Hopefully the IDF can swiftly kill the baby beheaders. Any kind of public trail of hamas leaders is only going to lead to protests and riots from some Muslims, and thousands of idiotic comments on Twitter justifying their actions. Don't know enough about the current Israeli unity government but I doubt I would agree with you that they are a bunch of murderous bastards

[tc27]

Honestly think the UK government should not allow any more large scale 'ceasefire' marches.

Israel rightly doesn't give a fuck what these people think, the position of any foriegn government thats not the USA is irrelevant and they are a vehicle for blatant public expressions of anti semetism.

[C69]

Honestly think the UK government should not allow any more large scale 'ceasefire' marches.

Israel rightly doesn't give a fuck what these people think, the position of any foriegn government thats not the USA is irrelevant and they are a vehicle for blatant public expressions of anti semetism.

I am sure there is a degree of antisemitism at these protests.
However, how exactly do you propose to stop protests of this nature.
It's a slippery slope and no one will want to touch this with a barge pole for obvious reasons.
Would you ban this and allow the protests, albeit on a much smaller level of Israelis and Jews releasing balloons and chanting for the same release of the HAMAS hostages?
Good luck with that.


Islamophobic and antisemitic attacks are mushrooming atm.
There is a clear definition of antisemitism but not one for Islamophobic abuse apparently. Certainly on the local ITV news last night it was highlighted that this is an issue because police have no idea what to do about it, so it goes massively under reported and it was suggested ignored by the police.

[tc27]

You dont have to ban them just tell them they need to wait a while before the next one.

Dont need one every week.

[sturginho]

Honestly think the UK government should not allow any more large scale 'ceasefire' marches.

Israel rightly doesn't give a fuck what these people think, the position of any foriegn government thats not the USA is irrelevant and they are a vehicle for blatant public expressions of anti semetism.

I am sure there is a degree of antisemitism at these protests.
However, how exactly do you propose to stop protests of this nature.
It's a slippery slope and no one will want to touch this with a barge pole for obvious reasons.
Would you ban this and allow the protests, albeit on a much smaller level of Israelis and Jews releasing balloons and chanting for the same release of the HAMAS hostages?
Good luck with that.


Islamophobic and antisemitic attacks are mushrooming atm.
There is a clear definition of antisemitism but not one for Islamophobic abuse apparently. Certainly on the local ITV news last night it was highlighted that this is an issue because police have no idea what to do about it, so it goes massively under reported and it was suggested ignored by the police.

I think you'll find that Suella has already made it so we can ban protests

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You dont have to ban them just tell them they need to wait a while before the next one.

Dont need one every week.

What this could encourage is the notion of an immediate response to a situation. As in you don't even notify police you're having a protest.

Better it would seem to work with those wanting to protest than try to shut down protests, both to give a chance to vent, and to give the police a chance to plan

[Line6 HXFX]

Wonderful article here as to why protest is important.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... za-tragedy

Please Keep Marching.

As I wake up this weekend, I will be in an unfamiliar place: sheltering with dozens of other people in a relative’s home. Hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza find themselves in a similar position.

My siblings and I have moved four times already since the war started three long weeks ago – first, from our home in the north of Gaza to go and stay with our grandparents because the airstrikes were too close. We had to move again after a few days because the bombing got closer still. Entire families were being wiped out every night. We were then told to move to the south. Yet when we did, we were attacked and bombed on the very road we were told to take to safety. It’s fair to say that nowhere is really safe from the bombs. Not even the hospitals and schools.


This weekend, I will look outside to see smoke rising from the latest bombings. There will be people on the street injured and maimed. And the sounds of families mourning their dead will only be interrupted by the buzzing of military drones and fighter jets overhead. There are no olives on the trees – only burnt branches. There are no birds in the sky. For they, too, have been driven away.

We are used to living under a military siege. I would go so far as to say we’ve become used to the misery of war. But this time it feels different. This time the sheer terror being unleashed upon us feels more savage than ever before. This is confirmed in the death toll. Everybody has lost somebody they know and love. In my case, it was my beloved friends Mimana Jarada and Abraham Saidam. It is at times like this that we feel helpless and hopeless, as if our cries cannot be heard and our resilience is in vain. The weight of the cruelty of the world becomes too much.

However, there is one thing that has recently given me hope in the face of the tragedy that has become our lives here in Gaza. It is the pictures of hundreds of thousands of people standing up for us and protesting in our name – demonstrations held in the streets of cities across the world, from Algiers and Istanbul to London and Washington DC. The kindness of strangers, often thousands of miles away: this pulls us out of that feeling of hopelessness. Seeing this, I cannot help my eyes filling with tears. It shows people care and our suffering is felt.

These scenes of support and solidarity really restore our hope. Seeing people of all ages and from all communities descend on the streets of London last weekend proved that our cries were not in vain. We are heard. The world is watching. And our fellow humans are standing up for us by opposing this war.

‘We are not special. Be prepared,’ my mother-in-law tells me from Gaza. Then comes the terrible news

We are in dire need of hope right now. I cannot stress this enough. The situation is so difficult and we need a portion of hope every day. This is what your support gives us: enough hope to get through the long, painful and difficult day that will come tomorrow. So my message to those people of Britain – who will stand up for us yet again today by attending peaceful demonstrations held in London and other cities– is a simple word of thanks. You restore my faith in humanity – each time you march in our name and call for peace, each time you chant for a free Palestine and a better world, and with every sign, banner and flag that you wave in our support.

We are together. We march with you in our hearts and hopes. The people of Gaza are watching. We see this and we feel less alone. You give us hope for a better, fairer world.

Nowar Diab is a student from Gaza City. She is part of the We Are Not Numbers collective, which works with young Gazans to help improve their English language skills and tell their stories to the world

[Guy Smiley]

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only ... can-exist/

Recently, an Australian-Palestinian friend of mine was invited to appear on Australia’s national television network to discuss the situation in and around Gaza.1 His white interviewers posed all the usual questions: Can you defend what we’ve seen from Hamas militants? How has the Palestinian cause been helped by this violence? How can anyone defend the slaughter of young music lovers at a music festival? Do you defend Hamas? They probably expected a defensive reaction from him, but calmly, in his smooth Australian-accented English, my friend had already turned the interview on its head. “I want to know why I’m here today, and why I haven’t been here for the past year,” he said gently. By the eve of October 7, he pointed out, Israeli forces had already killed more than two hundred Palestinians in 2023. The siege in Gaza was more than sixteen years old, and Israel had been operating outside international law for seventy-five years. “Normal” in Palestine was a killing a day—yet a killing a day in a decades-old occupation was hardly news; it certainly wasn’t justification for a live interview on a national television network. Palestinians were being given the opportunity to speak now because the Western media suddenly cared, and they cared (“as we should care,” my friend added) because, this time, the victims included Israeli civilians. In the days after October 7, Australia made a strong show of support for Israel: Parliament and the Sydney Opera House were lit up in the colors of the Israeli flag; the Prime Minister said pro-Palestinian rallies should be called off out of respect for the Israeli dead; the foreign minister was lambasted for saying Israel should endeavor to minimize civilian deaths in Gaza. “Well, what about our lives?” my friend asked.

"they are evil and inhumane because they made us bomb their babies"

In the first week of the round-the-clock bombardment, the Israelis said they had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza, a number equivalent to about a month of bombing at the peak of the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan—countries many, many times larger than the Gaza Strip.9 (Iraq is over a thousand times the size of Gaza.) They also claimed to have dropped over a thousand tons of high explosives; by the end of week one, we were, in other words, already into the kiloton measurements of nuclear weapons, and weeks two and three are upon us.10 In the first week of bombing, 1,700 entire buildings in Gaza were destroyed. Many times that number were damaged, often beyond repair. Each building includes seven, eight, nine, or more separate apartments, each one the former home of some family now either homeless once more or dead. As ever, the Israelis claim that they are targeting “the terror infrastructure.” As ever, the bodies (or body parts) actually pulled from the rubble or picked up from the neighboring streets are mostly of women and children, unlikely constituents of the phantom “terror infrastructure” from which the occupying power—with the blessing and benediction of its superpower patron—claims to be defending itself.

[C69]

Targeting and bombing hospitals well done.

[Calculon]

Targeting and bombing hospitals well done.

Hospital used as a base for the baby beheaders, yes well done, apart from the civilian human shields. Did the side that likes to burn babies alive use women and children hostages as a human shield this time?

[Tichtheid]

Targeting and bombing hospitals well done.

Hospital used as a base for the baby beheaders, yes well done, apart from the civilian human shields. Did the side that likes to burn babies alive use women and children hostages as a human shield this time?

This is why this thread is useless

[Calculon]

Targeting and bombing hospitals well done.

Hospital used as a base for the baby beheaders, yes well done, apart from the civilian human shields. Did the side that likes to burn babies alive use women and children hostages as a human shield this time?

This is why this thread is useless

No it became useless when an Israeli government source, releasing the correct, factual information, was described by you as “perilously close to wing nut”. All the while the BBC, spouting a complete fabrication from Hamas as the actual truth, conveniently gets a pass.

[Calculon]

The Pogroms start anew

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67258332

Bunch of shitkickers

[Tichtheid]

Hospital used as a base for the baby beheaders, yes well done, apart from the civilian human shields. Did the side that likes to burn babies alive use women and children hostages as a human shield this time?

This is why this thread is useless

No it became useless when an Israeli government source, releasing the correct, factual information, was described by you as “perilously close to wing nut”. All the while the BBC, spouting a complete fabrication from Hamas as the actual truth, conveniently gets a pass.

Has the truth about that strike been ascertained yet? I wasn't aware that there is independent verification, if that is the case then fair enough, but I explained why there has to be context given, ie who is saying it, when sources are quoted, it was particularly apt in the case you quote, given that person's history.

This fundamentalist, blackest of black or whitest of white, 100% in either direction is the problem - calling for a ceasefire and an alternative to war is not support of the barbaric acts of Hamas a few weeks ago.

[Slick]

This is why this thread is useless

No it became useless when an Israeli government source, releasing the correct, factual information, was described by you as “perilously close to wing nut”. All the while the BBC, spouting a complete fabrication from Hamas as the actual truth, conveniently gets a pass.

Has the truth about that strike been ascertained yet? I wasn't aware that there is independent verification, if that is the case then fair enough, but I explained why there has to be context given, ie who is saying it, when sources are quoted, it was particularly apt in the case you quote, given that person's history.

This fundamentalist, blackest of black or whitest of white, 100% in either direction is the problem - calling for a ceasefire and an alternative to war is not support of the barbaric acts of Hamas a few weeks ago.

100% this. I was thinking exactly that as I walked through a crowd of pro Palestinian protesters after a rally in Edinburgh on Saturday, how can you be so utterly convinced of the truth that you do this

[Line6 HXFX]

One side are the invaders, the occupiers, the provocateurs...and are going against all international laws, and agreements since 1967..and nearly every human rights law....the other side is fighting for their lives.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.


This isn't a both sides thing.

[Raggs]

Has the truth about that strike been ascertained yet? I wasn't aware that there is independent verification, if that is the case then fair enough, but I explained why there has to be context given, ie who is saying it, when sources are quoted, it was particularly apt in the case you quote, given that person's history.

This fundamentalist, blackest of black or whitest of white, 100% in either direction is the problem - calling for a ceasefire and an alternative to war is not support of the barbaric acts of Hamas a few weeks ago.

Plenty of intelligence agencies coming out and saying it was a misfired rocket. The evidence we have available shows it definitely wasn't a large bomb (not enough of a crater), it wasn't an airburst device (tops of vehicles undamaged, except for fire damage).

One vehicle was seriously damaged (flipped I think), but pretty much all the rest of the damage was fire damage from the vehicles burning.

The direction of the spray/crater is indecisive evidence as it can be 180 flip depending on what it was. In one of the two directions, it does align with where a palestinian rocket barrage was coming from at the same time as the explosion.

One report trying to claim it was an Israeli artillery round ignores the fact that 155mm would have made a bigger hole, and the image they used to show artillery crater damage, is in fact rocket artillery, with a similar size rocket to those thought to being fired. Image below.

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/139835 ... 4-sizAR1g=

Finally, as some weapons inspector types have posted, the first thing they do, is pickup bits of what's left of the weapon (image above as the rocket casing showing still) to determine what exactly went on. No parts of the weapon have been released, which is suspicious.

I am no sort of weapons expert, all of the above comes from knowledge gained from the likes of osintdefender, osinttechnical, geolocated and other twitter sources that seem to prefer to put in the time and research to try and get it right.

[Tichtheid]

Has the truth about that strike been ascertained yet? I wasn't aware that there is independent verification, if that is the case then fair enough, but I explained why there has to be context given, ie who is saying it, when sources are quoted, it was particularly apt in the case you quote, given that person's history.

This fundamentalist, blackest of black or whitest of white, 100% in either direction is the problem - calling for a ceasefire and an alternative to war is not support of the barbaric acts of Hamas a few weeks ago.

Plenty of intelligence agencies coming out and saying it was a misfired rocket. The evidence we have available shows it definitely wasn't a large bomb (not enough of a crater), it wasn't an airburst device (tops of vehicles undamaged, except for fire damage).

One vehicle was seriously damaged (flipped I think), but pretty much all the rest of the damage was fire damage from the vehicles burning.

The direction of the spray/crater is indecisive evidence as it can be 180 flip depending on what it was. In one of the two directions, it does align with where a palestinian rocket barrage was coming from at the same time as the explosion.

One report trying to claim it was an Israeli artillery round ignores the fact that 155mm would have made a bigger hole, and the image they used to show artillery crater damage, is in fact rocket artillery, with a similar size rocket to those thought to being fired. Image below.

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/139835 ... 4-sizAR1g=

Finally, as some weapons inspector types have posted, the first thing they do, is pickup bits of what's left of the weapon (image above as the rocket casing showing still) to determine what exactly went on. No parts of the weapon have been released, which is suspicious.

I am no sort of weapons expert, all of the above comes from knowledge gained from the likes of osintdefender, osinttechnical, geolocated and other twitter sources that seem to prefer to put in the time and research to try and get it right.

That all sounds like pretty substantial testimony. I'm happy, no happy is not appropriate here, I'm prepared to accept that. However that is actually beside the point I have been trying to make, this is about trying to reach some kind of understanding of what is happening and this incident is a very good example of claim and counter claim and why it's important to know who is making the claims.

This is one of two points I've been trying to make on here, the other is my rejection of the apparent stance that "if you are not 100% with us and endorse everything my side does, then you are 100% against us"

[Line6 HXFX]

Look we have all been on israeli threads before, we jnow how this all goes..we have all been called anti semetic.
Israel is fighting for its survival, so if you question their illegal methods, then you obviously hate Jews.

Fact is if you go against international law, and these laws are just going unpunished it leads to violence.

We didn't say to Israel, hey maybe it would be nice if you didn't create 3000 illegal settlements.
We have prosecuted them again and again, to absolutely no avail.


Eventually the ignored and continuosly robbed shop keeper is going to lose faith in the law..stick up an electric fence and barbed wire, put broken glass on his walls..and go fucking crazy and hit the invaders and thieves with a big fucking stick.

This is why obeying laws is important, Isreal. You don't want to come face to face with your angry and desperate victims.

[Uncle fester]

The Pogroms start anew

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67258332

Bunch of shitkickers

So increase the bombing rate on Gaza?

[Uncle fester]

Targeting and bombing hospitals well done.

Don't you realise that Bibi has his neck to save and has to be seen to do something and distract from the massive failure of his administration to protect ordinary Israelis in the first place?

[C69]

The Pogroms start anew

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67258332

Bunch of shitkickers

Most civilised countries have suspended flights to Russia.
Why is Is Israel still flying there and still trading with Russia?

[Raggs]

The Pogroms start anew

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67258332

Bunch of shitkickers

Most civilised countries have suspended flights to Russia.
Why is Is Israel still flying there and still trading with Russia?

There's a huge number of Russians in Israel, whether Israeli's or visiting Russians.

It's hard getting exact info, but I've read that there weren't Israeli's on the flight, and the flight was returning children who'd undergone medical treatment in Israel.

Perhaps Israel should refuse medical treatment to children?

[David in Gwent]

Israel won't be stopping their activities any time soon. I wonder how long it will be before the marches in London and elsewhere get really out of hand.

Pennies will start dropping.

[Slick]

Israel won't be stopping their activities any time soon. I wonder how long it will be before the marches in London and elsewhere get really out of hand.

Pennies will start dropping.

Is this the lizard people thing?

[C69]

The Pogroms start anew

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67258332

Bunch of shitkickers

Most civilised countries have suspended flights to Russia.
Why is Is Israel still flying there and still trading with Russia?

There's a huge number of Russians in Israel, whether Israeli's or visiting Russians.

It's hard getting exact info, but I've read that there weren't Israeli's on the flight, and the flight was returning children who'd undergone medical treatment in Israel.

Perhaps Israel should refuse medical treatment to children?

Why is Israel still trading and flying to Russia when its allies are imposing sanctions on Putin?

[Raggs]

Most civilised countries have suspended flights to Russia.
Why is Is Israel still flying there and still trading with Russia?

There's a huge number of Russians in Israel, whether Israeli's or visiting Russians.

It's hard getting exact info, but I've read that there weren't Israeli's on the flight, and the flight was returning children who'd undergone medical treatment in Israel.

Perhaps Israel should refuse medical treatment to children?

Why is Israel still trading and flying to Russia when its allies are imposing sanctions on Putin?

Russia was an ally with Israel. But drifting apart starting with Ukraine, where Israel supplied intelligence and missile defence systems. As stated there's a huge Russian population in Israel in terms of percentage. The EU implemented them for safety concerns, Russians going to Russia from Israel was probably less concerning. That may change now, seeing as Russia has been hosting Hamas etc.

Why is it a problem for Israel to give medical treatment to children?

One more thing though, why does that somehow make it OK for people in Russia to hunt Jews? Or is it just that you wanted to make it clear that it was Israel's fault somehow that they're being hunted there?

[Uncle fester]

What's happening in Dagestan has very little relevance to what's happening in Israel/Gaza.

Unless you're trying to paint a narrative of the conflict there being "Jewish people versus the world" and some folks clearly do have that aim.

[Raggs]

What's happening in Dagestan has very little relevance to what's happening in Israel/Gaza.

Unless you're trying to paint a narrative of the conflict there being "Jewish people versus the world" and some folks clearly do have that aim.

Not sure who you're talking to here, if me, I'm just trying to find out from C69, why Jews being hunted by Russians, has any relevance to his point that Israel still having flights to Russia.