Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Slick]

I kind of agree with Sandy, I think most of our defences, natural and otherwise, are set up for the prevailing conditions. I also think she is desperate for excuses.

"Spring tides, which feels a bit odd with it being Autumn" is my favourite part though..... who didn't understand their briefing...

Spring instead of neap tides will have an impact on flooding. The spring has nothing to do with the season Spring. A clever person would have stated bigger tides coincided with the storm.

Well, yes, that’s why we were laughing!

[ASMO]

And now Sunak says the 4 day week will be a disaster, yet all of the actual evidence from every trial undertaken (including Cambs Council) points to the opposite, facts don't matter it seems anymore.

[shaggy]

And now Sunak says the 4 day week will be a disaster, yet all of the actual evidence from every trial undertaken (including Cambs Council) points to the opposite, facts don't matter it seems anymore.

Not all trials. I read a piece looking at positives and negatives and there were quite a few drawbacks which only get unearthed when you have proper key performance indicators.

One of the key ones was the time to resolve issues as a staggered week across teams/disciplines meant email and voicemail ping ping doubling the time for certain activities to be completed.

I think the environments that a 4 day week will work is quite narrow, and from an optics perspective many tax payers will not be comfortable that they are giving council employees extras days off when they are working 6 days a week across several jobs just to survive.

[Sandstorm]

And now Sunak says the 4 day week will be a disaster, yet all of the actual evidence from every trial undertaken (including Cambs Council) points to the opposite, facts don't matter it seems anymore.

My mate started work at Cambs Council last year and he says they are the laziest bunch of workshy people he's ever joined. Which is saying something because I've never seen him put in much effort either.

I also understand he's staying put for the foreseeable future.

[TedMaul]

My GF was a grad trainee for the Met (this is 12 years ago btw) in Public Finance. Was a great scheme. As part of this she did 3 months with Islington Council and 3 with Hackney.
The woman she reported to at IC was not in once in the 3 months as lifts were playing up and she claimed she was too fat to use the stairs. The bloke at HC had a month off for emotional distress as his cat died.
In both the overriding attitude was don't do too much work and show us up, and everyone took at least 5 days sick leave a month. Her communistic principles crumbled in that 6 months like an aspirin in water.

[sockwithaticket]

And now Sunak says the 4 day week will be a disaster, yet all of the actual evidence from every trial undertaken (including Cambs Council) points to the opposite, facts don't matter it seems anymore.

Not all trials. I read a piece looking at positives and negatives and there were quite a few drawbacks which only get unearthed when you have proper key performance indicators.

One of the key ones was the time to resolve issues as a staggered week across teams/disciplines meant email and voicemail ping ping doubling the time for certain activities to be completed.

I think the environments that a 4 day week will work is quite narrow, and from an optics perspective many tax payers will not be comfortable that they are giving council employees extras days off when they are working 6 days a week across several jobs just to survive.

I've found that's generally an issue with company culture. I've worked where decisions were almost instantaneous and where even simple yes or no responses could be prevaricated over for weeks. A 4 day week might make the latter worse, but I wouldn't expect it to impact an environment where structures and culture facilitate being decisive.

[Slick]

My GF was a grad trainee for the Met (this is 12 years ago btw) in Public Finance. Was a great scheme. As part of this she did 3 months with Islington Council and 3 with Hackney.
The woman she reported to at IC was not in once in the 3 months as lifts were playing up and she claimed she was too fat to use the stairs. The bloke at HC had a month off for emotional distress as his cat died.
In both the overriding attitude was don't do too much work and show us up, and everyone took at least 5 days sick leave a month. Her communistic principles crumbled in that 6 months like an aspirin in water.

Yup, I know a couple of people that work in a similar environment and they take their allocated sick days every month without fail, usually a Friday and a Monday of course.

[dpedin]

And now Sunak says the 4 day week will be a disaster, yet all of the actual evidence from every trial undertaken (including Cambs Council) points to the opposite, facts don't matter it seems anymore.

Not all trials. I read a piece looking at positives and negatives and there were quite a few drawbacks which only get unearthed when you have proper key performance indicators.

One of the key ones was the time to resolve issues as a staggered week across teams/disciplines meant email and voicemail ping ping doubling the time for certain activities to be completed.

I think the environments that a 4 day week will work is quite narrow, and from an optics perspective many tax payers will not be comfortable that they are giving council employees extras days off when they are working 6 days a week across several jobs just to survive.

I've found that's generally an issue with company culture. I've worked where decisions were almost instantaneous and where even simple yes or no responses could be prevaricated over for weeks. A 4 day week might make the latter worse, but I wouldn't expect it to impact an environment where structures and culture facilitate being decisive.

This! I worked in a 24/7/52 weeks a year industry and the days of a normal 5 day working week were long gone. As more and more companies have to extend working hours to meet customer demand and the competition then the old 5 day a week dinosaur has gone. We had folk working part time/full time/flexible time/annualised hours/compressed hours, etc. If you want good employees and you want them to stay then this is what you have to do - it is a sellers market for many skilled workers. Also employees have multiple demands on them these days and want to work flexibly in order to reduce travel, childminding, commuting etc costs. The future trend is away from a 5 day week and it will continue in more and more sectors along with flexible working or WFH etc. Put it another way - why on earth would companies spend £££ on IT and means of flexible working and then continue to spend even more £££ on office and car parking etc in expensive locations when they dont need to? Many companies are downsizing offices and moving to cheaper facilities based in cheaper locations and utilise IT and new ways of working cause out saves costs without any diminution in productivity.

Increasingly big companies are realising that to recruit and retain the new younger workforce they need to offer this flexibility and they are. My daughter works for a major manufacturing/tech multinational in London and recently worked three weeks in France as she wanted to go to the RWC games. As long as she had hotel/airb&b room to work from with good internet connection and mobile phone network she was sorted. Her work were absolutely fine with this. Most now have a policy that employees can work for fixed period of time overseas. Normally she goes into office 2-3 times a week and then spends her time on her laptop in zoom meetings with colleagues from around the world and with customers and suppliers around the UK.

Why is there such a push for folk to return to 5 day a week working in a central town office with all the costs and commuting time is beyond me. Perhaps it has something to do with who has invested interests in expensive central head offices and restaurants/fast food outlets around them? The covid pandemic exposed the fallacy of having to go to work 5 days a week 9-5 and there is no going back.

[petej]

And now Sunak says the 4 day week will be a disaster, yet all of the actual evidence from every trial undertaken (including Cambs Council) points to the opposite, facts don't matter it seems anymore.

Not all trials. I read a piece looking at positives and negatives and there were quite a few drawbacks which only get unearthed when you have proper key performance indicators.

One of the key ones was the time to resolve issues as a staggered week across teams/disciplines meant email and voicemail ping ping doubling the time for certain activities to be completed.

I think the environments that a 4 day week will work is quite narrow, and from an optics perspective many tax payers will not be comfortable that they are giving council employees extras days off when they are working 6 days a week across several jobs just to survive.

I've found that's generally an issue with company culture. I've worked where decisions were almost instantaneous and where even simple yes or no responses could be prevaricated over for weeks. A 4 day week might make the latter worse, but I wouldn't expect it to impact an environment where structures and culture facilitate being decisive.

Yep if they are going to prevaricate over 4 days they will over 5 days. Everyone is so scared of getting stuff wrong or they know that the cheap bean counter option is obviously wrong but they won't push back due to it being career limiting that they do nothing instead.

[sockwithaticket]

Not all trials. I read a piece looking at positives and negatives and there were quite a few drawbacks which only get unearthed when you have proper key performance indicators.

One of the key ones was the time to resolve issues as a staggered week across teams/disciplines meant email and voicemail ping ping doubling the time for certain activities to be completed.

I think the environments that a 4 day week will work is quite narrow, and from an optics perspective many tax payers will not be comfortable that they are giving council employees extras days off when they are working 6 days a week across several jobs just to survive.

I've found that's generally an issue with company culture. I've worked where decisions were almost instantaneous and where even simple yes or no responses could be prevaricated over for weeks. A 4 day week might make the latter worse, but I wouldn't expect it to impact an environment where structures and culture facilitate being decisive.

This! I worked in a 24/7/52 weeks a year industry and the days of a normal 5 day working week were long gone. As more and more companies have to extend working hours to meet customer demand and the competition then the old 5 day a week dinosaur has gone. We had folk working part time/full time/flexible time/annualised hours/compressed hours, etc. If you want good employees and you want them to stay then this is what you have to do - it is a sellers market for many skilled workers. Also employees have multiple demands on them these days and want to work flexibly in order to reduce travel, childminding, commuting etc costs. The future trend is away from a 5 day week and it will continue in more and more sectors along with flexible working or WFH etc. Put it another way - why on earth would companies spend £££ on IT and means of flexible working and then continue to spend even more £££ on office and car parking etc in expensive locations when they dont need to? Many companies are downsizing offices and moving to cheaper facilities based in cheaper locations and utilise IT and new ways of working cause out saves costs without any diminution in productivity.

Increasingly big companies are realising that to recruit and retain the new younger workforce they need to offer this flexibility and they are. My daughter works for a major manufacturing/tech multinational in London and recently worked three weeks in France as she wanted to go to the RWC games. As long as she had hotel/airb&b room to work from with good internet connection and mobile phone network she was sorted. Her work were absolutely fine with this. Most now have a policy that employees can work for fixed period of time overseas. Normally she goes into office 2-3 times a week and then spends her time on her laptop in zoom meetings with colleagues from around the world and with customers and suppliers around the UK.

Why is there such a push for folk to return to 5 day a week working in a central town office with all the costs and commuting time is beyond me. Perhaps it has something to do with who has invested interests in expensive central head offices and restaurants/fast food outlets around them? The covid pandemic exposed the fallacy of having to go to work 5 days a week 9-5 and there is no going back.

It is 100% commericial landlords - whether it's the owners of office blocks or of the various buildings that house businesses that thrive on centralised office workers (mostly eateries of various types)

To a lesser extent it's also higher ups in companies who are convinced they can't trust employees to be productive away from their watchful eye (as if the office doesn't have people who spend half their day chatting, checking their phone, taking loooong toilet breaks and getting up to make tea every 15 minutes) and/or are Luddites.

There are some industries and jobs where face to face time is important, even unavoidable, but your average office worker definitely doesn't need to be in the office more than a fraction of the time. In my experience inability to work well with remote tools is user error and unwillingness to learn how to make best use of them.

[Sandstorm]

Why is there such a push for folk to return to 5 day a week working in a central town office with all the costs and commuting time is beyond me. Perhaps it has something to do with who has invested interests in expensive central head offices and restaurants/fast food outlets around them? The covid pandemic exposed the fallacy of having to go to work 5 days a week 9-5 and there is no going back.

Our (elderly) Chairman reckons people need to be in the office to work together more effectively and "not take the piss". Company owners need to catch up to the changing ways of the workforce as you say. Likewise managers will have to spend a bit more time actually managing their staff when they are outside their eyeline.

[petej]

Feel free to check of your water is contaminated with pfas.
https://www.rsc.org/policy-evidence-cam ... active-map

[petej]

Why is there such a push for folk to return to 5 day a week working in a central town office with all the costs and commuting time is beyond me. Perhaps it has something to do with who has invested interests in expensive central head offices and restaurants/fast food outlets around them? The covid pandemic exposed the fallacy of having to go to work 5 days a week 9-5 and there is no going back.

Our (elderly) Chairman reckons people need to be in the office to work together more effectively and "not take the piss". Company owners need to catch up to the changing ways of the workforce as you say. Likewise managers will have to spend a bit more time actually managing their staff when they are outside their eyeline.

Can't remember ever having a manager who managed their workforce over managing and pleasing their manager. The better ones are good at shielding their workforce from the bullshit.

[weegie01]

The origins of the four day week were based in the fact that very few people actually work all the time they are at work. Essentially the deal was work for 4 days rather than 5, but when you are at work, stop spending time on personal stuff and use the extra free day to do it.

I retired some years ago and take less and less interest in the world of work. But some things remain as true now as they did then. There is a cultural change needed to go to four days rather than five and maintain the same productivity. This can be achieved to some extent by better working practices, tools etc, but there also has to an acceptance that less time at work means more actual work during work hours. This is easy for the first few months, first year maybe, but then the old ways start slipping back. This is true of any cultural change, it takes far, far longer to truly embed than most organisations accept, and far, far more effort. Hard conclusions can't be drawn in significant cultural change for 18 months to two years, but they always are, so people can claim victory, get promoted and leave some other bugger to sort out the mess left behind.

My wife's firm has embraced all forms of remote working, flexible working etc. They are now having some pretty hard conversations with even pretty senior people about the 'working' part of wfh. A conversation my wife just had involved a male senior employee whose wife is senior in another firm. Both work from home, and have decided that they no longer need to send their kids to nursery since thay are both at home. So much of the time they are supposed to be working is actually taken up with dealing with their kids with promises of catching up later. But in a time sensitive job it is often just not possible to kick the can down the road, even by a few hours, especially if other work is then delayed.

All types of flexible working can work, but not in every industry. Four day weeks without reducing productivity can work, but not in every industry. The key thing is that there is no one size fits all solution, and it takes a lot of effort over a sustained period of time to make the necessary changes, and to make them stick.

Frankly, I have little faith in the the management echelons of UK companies to have either the competence, the imagination or perseverance to make it happen. In fact I believe one of the biggest issues we have in this country is the relatively poor quality of management, with far too many people in management roles with no management training at all but have risen through technical roles and fallen into management.

[Insane_Homer]

Guardian

Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of rape and possession of drugs


Westminster sources confirm man since released on conditional bail is a sitting MP

A Conservative MP has been arrested on suspicion of rape and possession of drugs, the Guardian has learned.

Police said a man was arrested on Wednesday morning before being released on conditional bail.

Westminster sources confirmed the man, whom the Guardian is not naming, is a sitting MP.

[Biffer]

I've found that's generally an issue with company culture. I've worked where decisions were almost instantaneous and where even simple yes or no responses could be prevaricated over for weeks. A 4 day week might make the latter worse, but I wouldn't expect it to impact an environment where structures and culture facilitate being decisive.

This! I worked in a 24/7/52 weeks a year industry and the days of a normal 5 day working week were long gone. As more and more companies have to extend working hours to meet customer demand and the competition then the old 5 day a week dinosaur has gone. We had folk working part time/full time/flexible time/annualised hours/compressed hours, etc. If you want good employees and you want them to stay then this is what you have to do - it is a sellers market for many skilled workers. Also employees have multiple demands on them these days and want to work flexibly in order to reduce travel, childminding, commuting etc costs. The future trend is away from a 5 day week and it will continue in more and more sectors along with flexible working or WFH etc. Put it another way - why on earth would companies spend £££ on IT and means of flexible working and then continue to spend even more £££ on office and car parking etc in expensive locations when they dont need to? Many companies are downsizing offices and moving to cheaper facilities based in cheaper locations and utilise IT and new ways of working cause out saves costs without any diminution in productivity.

Increasingly big companies are realising that to recruit and retain the new younger workforce they need to offer this flexibility and they are. My daughter works for a major manufacturing/tech multinational in London and recently worked three weeks in France as she wanted to go to the RWC games. As long as she had hotel/airb&b room to work from with good internet connection and mobile phone network she was sorted. Her work were absolutely fine with this. Most now have a policy that employees can work for fixed period of time overseas. Normally she goes into office 2-3 times a week and then spends her time on her laptop in zoom meetings with colleagues from around the world and with customers and suppliers around the UK.

Why is there such a push for folk to return to 5 day a week working in a central town office with all the costs and commuting time is beyond me. Perhaps it has something to do with who has invested interests in expensive central head offices and restaurants/fast food outlets around them? The covid pandemic exposed the fallacy of having to go to work 5 days a week 9-5 and there is no going back.

It is 100% commericial landlords - whether it's the owners of office blocks or of the various buildings that house businesses that thrive on centralised office workers (mostly eateries of various types)

To a lesser extent it's also higher ups in companies who are convinced they can't trust employees to be productive away from their watchful eye (as if the office doesn't have people who spend half their day chatting, checking their phone, taking loooong toilet breaks and getting up to make tea every 15 minutes) and/or are Luddites.

There are some industries and jobs where face to face time is important, even unavoidable, but your average office worker definitely doesn't need to be in the office more than a fraction of the time. In my experience inability to work well with remote tools is user error and unwillingness to learn how to make best use of them.

Yeah, and that’s also pushed by politicians and bankers, because property price inflation is one of the key factors driving economic growth. If commercial property crashes, residential won’t be far behind and that’ll have a massive effect on the uk economy.

[JM2K6]

Does anyone else get directed to page 426 on mobile when trying to get to the first unread post? I even marked the entire forum as read and it still does it.

[Raggs]

Does anyone else get directed to page 426 on mobile when trying to get to the first unread post? I even marked the entire forum as read and it still does it.

Yep! Bloody irritating.

[laurent]

Does anyone else get directed to page 426 on mobile when trying to get to the first unread post? I even marked the entire forum as read and it still does it.

Yep! Bloody irritating.

Yep :x

[Paddington Bear]

I enjoy flexible working and it is a lifesaver for me given an admin cock up has me based in the midlands offices currently, but let’s not pretend there are a fair chunk of people who have really taken the piss.
It isn’t 100% accurate, but someone who is 100% remote is either a serious high flyer or a total waste of space, in my general experience.

Fwiw if I know what I’m doing and can do it reasonably independently I’d much prefer to do it from my study. Having started in a new team fairly recently though, when you don’t know what you’re doing remote work/flexible hours can be a total bloody nightmare, and I know for those that way inclined exceptionally anxiety inducing.

If I don’t have tonnes to do and I’m in the office I’ll pick bits up/sort my admin, if I’m at home honestly I’ll go for a walk, do some washing/watch tv

[JM2K6]

I enjoy flexible working and it is a lifesaver for me given an admin cock up has me based in the midlands offices currently, but let’s not pretend there are a fair chunk of people who have really taken the piss.
It isn’t 100% accurate, but someone who is 100% remote is either a serious high flyer or a total waste of space, in my general experience.

Fwiw if I know what I’m doing and can do it reasonably independently I’d much prefer to do it from my study. Having started in a new team fairly recently though, when you don’t know what you’re doing remote work/flexible hours can be a total bloody nightmare, and I know for those that way inclined exceptionally anxiety inducing.

If I don’t have tonnes to do and I’m in the office I’ll pick bits up/sort my admin, if I’m at home honestly I’ll go for a walk, do some washing/watch tv

People who take the piss will take the piss in the office. People who don't will likely find they're more productive in a more welcoming environment.

It's been a huge bonus for our company, productivity went through the roof. Turns out that people doing good work doesn't hinge on whether they take a break and put the washing on or watch some TV for some downtime if that's what they need. Very few jobs genuinely benefit from people being chained to their desks.

[Paddington Bear]

I enjoy flexible working and it is a lifesaver for me given an admin cock up has me based in the midlands offices currently, but let’s not pretend there are a fair chunk of people who have really taken the piss.
It isn’t 100% accurate, but someone who is 100% remote is either a serious high flyer or a total waste of space, in my general experience.

Fwiw if I know what I’m doing and can do it reasonably independently I’d much prefer to do it from my study. Having started in a new team fairly recently though, when you don’t know what you’re doing remote work/flexible hours can be a total bloody nightmare, and I know for those that way inclined exceptionally anxiety inducing.

If I don’t have tonnes to do and I’m in the office I’ll pick bits up/sort my admin, if I’m at home honestly I’ll go for a walk, do some washing/watch tv

People who take the piss will take the piss in the office. People who don't will likely find they're more productive in a more welcoming environment.

It's been a huge bonus for our company, productivity went through the roof. Turns out that people doing good work doesn't hinge on whether they take a break and put the washing on or watch some TV for some downtime if that's what they need. Very few jobs genuinely benefit from people being chained to their desks.

Every company varies, there are some success stories and some failures. I’ve seen more of the latter. For others it may be different.

Fwiw I’m not suggesting 5 days a week presenteeism is a good thing

[SaintK]

All right, which suspended one is it? Or is it a new one?

A Conservative MP has been arrested on suspicion of rape and the possession of controlled substances.

Surrey Police said the man was detained on Wednesday morning.
The Tory party has declined to comment on the arrest, first reported by The Sun.

The police were unable to say if the controlled substances were drugs, as tests are being carried out.
It is the latest in a string of arrests of sitting MPs.

A police spokesman said: “We can confirm a man was arrested yesterday morning (October 25)… on suspicion of rape and possession of controlled substances.
“He has been released on conditional police bail pending further inquiries.”

[Jockaline]

All right, which suspended one is it? Or is it a new one?

A Conservative MP has been arrested on suspicion of rape and the possession of controlled substances.

Surrey Police said the man was detained on Wednesday morning.
The Tory party has declined to comment on the arrest, first reported by The Sun.

The police were unable to say if the controlled substances were drugs, as tests are being carried out.
It is the latest in a string of arrests of sitting MPs.

A police spokesman said: “We can confirm a man was arrested yesterday morning (October 25)… on suspicion of rape and possession of controlled substances.
“He has been released on conditional police bail pending further inquiries.”

Crispin Blunt by the looks of it.
https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1 ... 67/photo/1

[Insane_Homer]

Yup,

BREAKING: Tory MP Crispin Blunt has ADMITTED to being the Tory MP arrested on suspicion of rape and possession of controlled substances in a social media post.

&

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67233090

[fishfoodie]

Where did he appear on the fireplace salesmans spreadsheet of criminality ?

[Hal Jordan]

Conspiracy theorists are saying it's because he's about the only Tory MP to put in a good, or even vaguely reasoned, word for Palestinians.

Or he's just another Tory.

[SaintK]

All right, which suspended one is it? Or is it a new one?

A Conservative MP has been arrested on suspicion of rape and the possession of controlled substances.

Surrey Police said the man was detained on Wednesday morning.
The Tory party has declined to comment on the arrest, first reported by The Sun.

The police were unable to say if the controlled substances were drugs, as tests are being carried out.
It is the latest in a string of arrests of sitting MPs.

A police spokesman said: “We can confirm a man was arrested yesterday morning (October 25)… on suspicion of rape and possession of controlled substances.
“He has been released on conditional police bail pending further inquiries.”

Crispin Blunt by the looks of it.
https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1 ... 67/photo/1

Aaah yes!
Thought it maight have been the "Honourable" member for Romford who has not attended the House of Commons for over 12 months!!!!

[Insane_Homer]

IMG_20231027_100229_757.jpg (66.66 KiB) Viewed 1375 times

[sturginho]

IMG_20231027_100229_757.jpg

Imagine what's contained in the messages he "no longer has access to"

[C69]

Can someone post a list of Tory MPs that have been arrested or suspended by the Tory Party in the last year for sexual offences and the like?
Pincher
Blunt
Bone

etc etc

[PCPhil]

Might be quicker just to post ones that aren't under suspicion?

[sockwithaticket]

Tories latest attempt to render our waterways ecological dead zones

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -standards

[tabascoboy]

[SaintK]

Can someone post a list of Tory MPs that have been arrested or suspended by the Tory Party in the last year for sexual offences and the like?
Pincher
Blunt
Bone

etc etc

Warburton and Knight?

[sockwithaticket]

Frankly, I have little faith in the the management echelons of UK companies to have either the competence, the imagination or perseverance to make it happen. In fact I believe one of the biggest issues we have in this country is the relatively poor quality of management, with far too many people in management roles with no management training at all but have risen through technical roles and fallen into management.

A huge part of the problem is that regular jobs don't pay so well. It means you end up with people who have neither the aptitude nor interest in management pursuing such roles purely for the pay bump. This is then exacerbated by largely just leaving them to figure out how to manage people which is reflective of a broader reluctance by businesses in this country to expend resources on training people.

[petej]

Frankly, I have little faith in the the management echelons of UK companies to have either the competence, the imagination or perseverance to make it happen. In fact I believe one of the biggest issues we have in this country is the relatively poor quality of management, with far too many people in management roles with no management training at all but have risen through technical roles and fallen into management.

A huge part of the problem is that regular jobs don't pay so well. It means you end up with people who have neither the aptitude nor interest in management pursuing such roles purely for the pay bump. This is then exacerbated by largely just leaving them to figure out how to manage people which is reflective of a broader reluctance by businesses in this country to expend resources on training people.

Agree that sometimes it is the only way to get a payrise and you really don't want to end up acting manager without the payrise which is quite common.

In engineering ive found the technical people who end up in management frequently do so because they are not good technically but say yes to management even when they really shouldn't. The other classic is promoted into middle management so they can do less damage. The worse project and line managers I've had were well qualified at management on paper having done most courses going but just awful with people.

[fishfoodie]

Frankly, I have little faith in the the management echelons of UK companies to have either the competence, the imagination or perseverance to make it happen. In fact I believe one of the biggest issues we have in this country is the relatively poor quality of management, with far too many people in management roles with no management training at all but have risen through technical roles and fallen into management.

A huge part of the problem is that regular jobs don't pay so well. It means you end up with people who have neither the aptitude nor interest in management pursuing such roles purely for the pay bump. This is then exacerbated by largely just leaving them to figure out how to manage people which is reflective of a broader reluctance by businesses in this country to expend resources on training people.

Agree that sometimes it is the only way to get a payrise and you really don't want to end up acting manager without the payrise which is quite common.

In engineering ive found the technical people who end up in management frequently do so because they are not good technically but say yes to management even when they really shouldn't. The other classic is promoted into middle management so they can do less damage. The worse project and line managers I've had were well qualified at management on paper having done most courses going but just awful with people.

My last company had a policy that capped the grades you could get to if you remained technical; so you either accepted that pay rises decreasing dramatically, or you became a people manager.

It led to frustrated senior engineers, & ambitious twats in management.

Eventually they recognized the mistake, & extended the Technical side grades, but they still have too many managers, & it'll take them a generation to unfuck the org.

[Line6 HXFX]

Just to remind you all, when Labour were last in power they didn't give two shits about you if you were single. Everything was families this, families that...family family family..

It was bizarre. Single (unmarried) young people may as well have not existed, even though your taxes were way up.

Everything seems to be done at the expense and neglect of others.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

A huge part of the problem is that regular jobs don't pay so well. It means you end up with people who have neither the aptitude nor interest in management pursuing such roles purely for the pay bump. This is then exacerbated by largely just leaving them to figure out how to manage people which is reflective of a broader reluctance by businesses in this country to expend resources on training people.

Agree that sometimes it is the only way to get a payrise and you really don't want to end up acting manager without the payrise which is quite common.

In engineering ive found the technical people who end up in management frequently do so because they are not good technically but say yes to management even when they really shouldn't. The other classic is promoted into middle management so they can do less damage. The worse project and line managers I've had were well qualified at management on paper having done most courses going but just awful with people.

My last company had a policy that capped the grades you could get to if you remained technical; so you either accepted that pay rises decreasing dramatically, or you became a people manager.

It led to frustrated senior engineers, & ambitious twats in management.

Eventually they recognized the mistake, & extended the Technical side grades, but they still have too many managers, & it'll take them a generation to unfuck the org.

I've mostly avoided this issue by working for American tech companies which, funnily enough, value tech skills highly but I have seen it in trad British organisations. I reckon it's even worse than you describe. A friend who worked for a former state owned enterprise described just what you say but with the extra bonus of management acrually trying to remove perks from engineers (that cost the company nothing) in order to maintain their status.