Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I really think we need to start prosecuting them all, stripping them of their citizenship and shipping them to Rwanda.

What the fuck have the Rwandans done to deserve that

[dpedin]

The type of culture and behaviour in No10 would appear to have been toxic and in my own experience this type of culture is a health and safety risk in normal organisations and in No10 presents an existential crisis for the country.

I was involved in a number of organisational investigations after a major 'event' and the culture of the workplace was always a key factor in driving the behaviours and bad results. It made sensible, normal people do things they wouldn't have dreamt of doing normally. One I was involved in was based around a bullying surgeon who everyone was afraid of - he would shout and swear at folk in theatre and demean them in front of colleagues. In this instance a theatre nurse made a mistake but rather than tell the surgeon this and be bawled out of theatre she hid her mistake and the impact on the patient was serious. All theatre staff said they were scared of him, junior doctors were physically sick with fear of working with him, many went off sick if working with the surgeon, etc. Turned out there had been a number of near misses in previous months. Fortunately the NHS has changed dramatically and has recognised that the type of behaviour is dangerous to patient safety and has mechanisms in place to avoid it happening. Look at most other major disasters and the cultural issues will be up there as a major contributory reason for the disaster.

Johnson and Cummings et al were just the same as the shouty, bullying surgeon and had the same effect - I am positive that the behaviours and outputs of staff within No10/CabOff would have been negatively impacted on. They were a risk to the country at the best of times, during a pandemic they were a huge risk to the country and the populace. Hopefully the Enquiry will lead to recommendations to stop this type of toxic culture ever developing again in the centre of power.

[fishfoodie]

The type of culture and behaviour in No10 would appear to have been toxic and in my own experience this type of culture is a health and safety risk in normal organisations and in No10 presents an existential crisis for the country.

I was involved in a number of organisational investigations after a major 'event' and the culture of the workplace was always a key factor in driving the behaviours and bad results. It made sensible, normal people do things they wouldn't have dreamt of doing normally. One I was involved in was based around a bullying surgeon who everyone was afraid of - he would shout and swear at folk in theatre and demean them in front of colleagues. In this instance a theatre nurse made a mistake but rather than tell the surgeon this and be bawled out of theatre she hid her mistake and the impact on the patient was serious. All theatre staff said they were scared of him, junior doctors were physically sick with fear of working with him, many went off sick if working with the surgeon, etc. Turned out there had been a number of near misses in previous months. Fortunately the NHS has changed dramatically and has recognised that the type of behaviour is dangerous to patient safety and has mechanisms in place to avoid it happening. Look at most other major disasters and the cultural issues will be up there as a major contributory reason for the disaster.

Johnson and Cummings et al were just the same as the shouty, bullying surgeon and had the same effect - I am positive that the behaviours and outputs of staff within No10/CabOff would have been negatively impacted on. They were a risk to the country at the best of times, during a pandemic they were a huge risk to the country and the populace. Hopefully the Enquiry will lead to recommendations to stop this type of toxic culture ever developing again in the centre of power.

This is why CRM (Crew Resource Management), is always a factor in Air crash investigation; & a situation like you describe was the cause of the worst ever loss of life in the Tenerife disaster, with a belligerent KLM Senior Pilot being the last link in the chain, because junior officers were afraid to contradict him, & thus he started takeoff, roll when he hadn't actually been cleared.

[tabascoboy]

From Sky News updates:

]Hancock wanted to decide 'who should live and who should die' if hospitals became overwhelmed, says ex-NHS boss
Sir Simon Stevens is next asked about a section in his witness statement that talks about what should happen if the NHS does become overwhelmed.

He writes: "The secretary of state for health and social care [Matt Hancock] took the position that in this situation he - rather than, say, the medical profession or the public - should ultimately decide who should live and who should die.

"Fortunately this horrible dilemma never crystallised."

Discussing this section, he tells the inquiry: "I certainly wanted to discourage the idea that an individual secretary of state, other than in the most exceptional circumstances, should be deciding how care would be provided.

"I felt that we are well served by the medical profession, in consultation with patients to the greatest extent possible, in making those kinds of decisions."

Ex-NHS boss rejects Johnson complaint of being forced into lockdown due to 'bed blocking'
Next, the inquiry's lawyer turns to a section of Boris Johnson's witness statement in which he writes that it was "very frustrating" to be forced into a lockdown due to the problem of "bed blocking".

The ex-PM writes: "It was very frustrating to think that we were being forced to extreme measures to lock down the country and protect the NHS - because the NHS and social services had failed to grip the decades old problem of delayed discharges, commonly known as bed blocking.

"Before the pandemic began I was doing regular tours of hospitals and finding that about 30% of patients did not strictly need to be in acute sector beds."

The ex-NHS chief Sir Simon Stevens rejects the characterisation, however, that "bed blocking" forced lockdown decisions.

He says: "We - and indeed he - were being told that if action was not taken on reducing the spread of coronavirus, there wouldn’t be 30,000 hospital inpatients, there would be maybe 200,000 or 800,000 hospital inpatients.

"So you can't say that you would be able to deal with 200,000 or 800,000 inpatients by reference to 30,000 blocked beds.

"Even if all of those 30,000 beds were freed up - for every one coronavirus patient who was then admitted to that bed, there would be another five patients who needed that care but weren't able to get it.

"So no, I don't think that is a fair statement in describing the decision calculus for the first wave."

[dpedin]

The type of culture and behaviour in No10 would appear to have been toxic and in my own experience this type of culture is a health and safety risk in normal organisations and in No10 presents an existential crisis for the country.

I was involved in a number of organisational investigations after a major 'event' and the culture of the workplace was always a key factor in driving the behaviours and bad results. It made sensible, normal people do things they wouldn't have dreamt of doing normally. One I was involved in was based around a bullying surgeon who everyone was afraid of - he would shout and swear at folk in theatre and demean them in front of colleagues. In this instance a theatre nurse made a mistake but rather than tell the surgeon this and be bawled out of theatre she hid her mistake and the impact on the patient was serious. All theatre staff said they were scared of him, junior doctors were physically sick with fear of working with him, many went off sick if working with the surgeon, etc. Turned out there had been a number of near misses in previous months. Fortunately the NHS has changed dramatically and has recognised that the type of behaviour is dangerous to patient safety and has mechanisms in place to avoid it happening. Look at most other major disasters and the cultural issues will be up there as a major contributory reason for the disaster.

Johnson and Cummings et al were just the same as the shouty, bullying surgeon and had the same effect - I am positive that the behaviours and outputs of staff within No10/CabOff would have been negatively impacted on. They were a risk to the country at the best of times, during a pandemic they were a huge risk to the country and the populace. Hopefully the Enquiry will lead to recommendations to stop this type of toxic culture ever developing again in the centre of power.

This is why CRM (Crew Resource Management), is always a factor in Air crash investigation; & a situation like you describe was the cause of the worst ever loss of life in the Tenerife disaster, with a belligerent KLM Senior Pilot being the last link in the chain, because junior officers were afraid to contradict him, & thus he started takeoff, roll when he hadn't actually been cleared.

I read about that one, didn't he want to get home to see his wife and go on a night out or something? I was also thinking of the Zeebrugge Disaster where there was a culture of cost savings and cutting corners and the crew member who was supposed to close the bow doors fell asleep due to working a double shift.

[fishfoodie]

The type of culture and behaviour in No10 would appear to have been toxic and in my own experience this type of culture is a health and safety risk in normal organisations and in No10 presents an existential crisis for the country.

I was involved in a number of organisational investigations after a major 'event' and the culture of the workplace was always a key factor in driving the behaviours and bad results. It made sensible, normal people do things they wouldn't have dreamt of doing normally. One I was involved in was based around a bullying surgeon who everyone was afraid of - he would shout and swear at folk in theatre and demean them in front of colleagues. In this instance a theatre nurse made a mistake but rather than tell the surgeon this and be bawled out of theatre she hid her mistake and the impact on the patient was serious. All theatre staff said they were scared of him, junior doctors were physically sick with fear of working with him, many went off sick if working with the surgeon, etc. Turned out there had been a number of near misses in previous months. Fortunately the NHS has changed dramatically and has recognised that the type of behaviour is dangerous to patient safety and has mechanisms in place to avoid it happening. Look at most other major disasters and the cultural issues will be up there as a major contributory reason for the disaster.

Johnson and Cummings et al were just the same as the shouty, bullying surgeon and had the same effect - I am positive that the behaviours and outputs of staff within No10/CabOff would have been negatively impacted on. They were a risk to the country at the best of times, during a pandemic they were a huge risk to the country and the populace. Hopefully the Enquiry will lead to recommendations to stop this type of toxic culture ever developing again in the centre of power.

This is why CRM (Crew Resource Management), is always a factor in Air crash investigation; & a situation like you describe was the cause of the worst ever loss of life in the Tenerife disaster, with a belligerent KLM Senior Pilot being the last link in the chain, because junior officers were afraid to contradict him, & thus he started takeoff, roll when he hadn't actually been cleared.

I read about that one, didn't he want to get home to see his wife and go on a night out or something? I was also thinking of the Zeebrugge Disaster where there was a culture of cost savings and cutting corners and the crew member who was supposed to close the bow doors fell asleep due to working a double shift.

I don't think the, "why", is clear, but KLM had recently introduced flight hours restrictions, & the crew was in danger of not being able to make the flight back, hence why he made the call to refuel in Tenerife , rather than Grand Canaria, as he thought this would allow him to just fly straight back, but it caused another delay & you could imagine his blood pressure was cranking up, & the visibility was shit, & there was a real chance they'd be stuck on the ground, out of position, for another day.

There was another crash, in Cork a few years ago, with a small commuter jet, & the cause was two inexperienced pilots, in a "virtual airline", under huge pressure not to divert, & after I think two missed approaches in heavy fog, they crashed.

They just didn't want to have to be responsible for costing the company the price of busing the passengers from their alternate !!

People do incredibly stupid shit under pressure.

[mat the expat]

People do incredibly stupid shit under pressure.

Which, in the old days, was why people would turn a blind eye to MPs dalliances, etc.

However, when the shit hits the fan, you Expect them to be able to perform under pressure.

[Sandstorm]

People do incredibly stupid shit under pressure.

Which, in the old days, was why people would turn a blind eye to MPs dalliances, etc.

However, when the shit hits the fan, you Expect them to be able to perform under pressure.

Maybe Johnson decided to have lots of parties at work to try to relieve that pressure.

[dpedin]

This is why CRM (Crew Resource Management), is always a factor in Air crash investigation; & a situation like you describe was the cause of the worst ever loss of life in the Tenerife disaster, with a belligerent KLM Senior Pilot being the last link in the chain, because junior officers were afraid to contradict him, & thus he started takeoff, roll when he hadn't actually been cleared.

I read about that one, didn't he want to get home to see his wife and go on a night out or something? I was also thinking of the Zeebrugge Disaster where there was a culture of cost savings and cutting corners and the crew member who was supposed to close the bow doors fell asleep due to working a double shift.

I don't think the, "why", is clear, but KLM had recently introduced flight hours restrictions, & the crew was in danger of not being able to make the flight back, hence why he made the call to refuel in Tenerife , rather than Grand Canaria, as he thought this would allow him to just fly straight back, but it caused another delay & you could imagine his blood pressure was cranking up, & the visibility was shit, & there was a real chance they'd be stuck on the ground, out of position, for another day.

There was another crash, in Cork a few years ago, with a small commuter jet, & the cause was two inexperienced pilots, in a "virtual airline", under huge pressure not to divert, & after I think two missed approaches in heavy fog, they crashed.

They just didn't want to have to be responsible for costing the company the price of busing the passengers from their alternate !!

People do incredibly stupid shit under pressure.

I think I remember an internal training course at a major oil operator in Aberdeen entitled, 'Why incredibly clever people do incredibly stupid things' and it was all about how a toxic culture and managerial/peer pressure will trump logical and sensible thinking when under pressure. The oil industry had real problems when moving from a discovery phase to steady state mass production stage and the leaders in the early phases who were excellent at risk taking and finding oil were the last guys you wanted to run a highly complex and dangerous oil production installation. However their major problem right up to Piper Alpha was that production was king, nothing was allowed to stop the flow of oil out of the ground.

[C T]

People do incredibly stupid shit under pressure.

Which, in the old days, was why people would turn a blind eye to MPs dalliances, etc.

However, when the shit hits the fan, you Expect them to be able to perform under pressure.

Maybe Johnson decided to have lots of parties at work to try to relieve that pressure.

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

[C T]

With the stuff coming out of the Covid enquiry I find myself focusing on the behaviours rather that the decisions.

I'm not handing out a complete free pass, just trying to acknowledge that it was a horrible situation and I bet I'd have made some pretty awful decisions in their place too.

The behaviours though are absolutely stinking. I've seen better bahaviours (by far) from 17/18 year old's starting their first job.

It was undoubtedly a horrible situation, & time when decisions could have horrific consequences; but, (you knew it was coming), one of the reasons why it was so horrible, was because they'd shutdown the expert working group that was developing plans for use in case of a pandemic, because these had been correctly deemed the most probably disaster.

We also today heard from Scummings, whose mantra of tear everything down in Whitehall, & hire a few weirdos who agree with my world view, a plan that isn't exactly conducive to rolling out plans in the event of a pandemic, especially when he was aided & abetted by JRMs plans to fire 40k Civil Servants.

When their Party was responsible for the shit state of the NHS, & the complete lack of any preparation or plans, they'll get scant sympathy from me, especially when they completely ignored the experts when they eventually got them involved.

All very good points, well made!

[Biffer]

Which, in the old days, was why people would turn a blind eye to MPs dalliances, etc.

However, when the shit hits the fan, you Expect them to be able to perform under pressure.

Maybe Johnson decided to have lots of parties at work to try to relieve that pressure.

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

[SaintK]

Maybe Johnson decided to have lots of parties at work to try to relieve that pressure.

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

Bollocks!
Huge generalisation!

[petej]

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

Bollocks!
Huge generalisation!

Massive generalisations indeed but I think they are generally correct.

[Biffer]

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

Bollocks!
Huge generalisation!

It doesn't mean that it works on everyone, and it's almost a subconscious aspect of English society tbh (there's not a grand plan to do this, no one scheming about it, it just kind of happens). But it works on enough people that there's a significant percentage who think people like Johnson and Rees Mogg are very intelligent.

[C T]

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

Reckon I've got the opposite conditioning. For example I tend to be automatically wary of a posh accent, and think they're probably a bit dim. Maybe all part of a more stereotypical Scottish mindset.

I get the point that people will have various pre-conceptions based on their upbringing/experiences.

Does irk me though when those views don't change when reality happens.

[Slick]

Which, in the old days, was why people would turn a blind eye to MPs dalliances, etc.

However, when the shit hits the fan, you Expect them to be able to perform under pressure.

Maybe Johnson decided to have lots of parties at work to try to relieve that pressure.

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

My in-laws are exactly the same, the buffoonery is all hilarious and not hurting anyone but he must be a serious chap because he went to Eton (as did all the family)

[inactionman]

I swear Johnson must be in possession of some sort of magic charm or something. This "Isn't he charming?" stuff I just don't get.

But that said, had the in-laws round recently. They're mid-60's and about as "English" as they come.

We were watching something on TV that was giving Johnson a hard time, and they were sitting on the sofa shuffling uncomfortably, muttering things like "leave the poor chap alone" etc. etc.

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

Bollocks!
Huge generalisation!

Arguably in some circles the opposite is true - people who speak in RP being seen as brainless toff Fauntleroys.

One thing I would say, and this is very anecdotal, but I've found those who attended Public schools to be ingrained with this 'confidence shield' that those from state school don't necessarily have. I had discussions with a good mate of mine who attended Felsteds and he agreed, and said he could spot an undergrad who'd attended Public School simply by demeanour. (He of course might have noted the foppish haircuts and the tweed jackets, but I'll give him benefit of doubt). The point isthat these sorts are very good at promoting a positive, confident image of themselves, and the less switched-on can be caught out by this.

[Slick]

It's a relic of the class system. English people are conditioned to think a posh accent (and a famous private school, and an oxbridhe degree, and a family history etc) means someone is very clever and should be followed / obeyed. It's an insidious part of the media, fiction, education and all sorts of other aspects of society. It's not even really intentional, it's just so embedded it's hard to break out of. And it's not just the working class who are conditioned like that, the middle and upper classes are too.

Bollocks!
Huge generalisation!

Arguably in some circles the opposite is true - people who speak in RP being seen as brainless toff Fauntleroys.

One thing I would say, and this is very anecdotal, but I've found those who attended Public schools to be ingrained with this 'confidence shield' that those from state school don't necessarily have. I had discussions with a good mate of mine who attended Felsteds and he agreed, and said he could spot an undergrad who'd attended Public School simply by demeanour. (He of course might have noted the foppish haircuts and the tweed jackets, but I'll give him benefit of doubt). The point isthat these sorts are very good at promoting a positive, confident image of themselves, and the less switched-on can be caught out by this.

Absolutely this.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Bollocks!
Huge generalisation!

Arguably in some circles the opposite is true - people who speak in RP being seen as brainless toff Fauntleroys.

One thing I would say, and this is very anecdotal, but I've found those who attended Public schools to be ingrained with this 'confidence shield' that those from state school don't necessarily have. I had discussions with a good mate of mine who attended Felsteds and he agreed, and said he could spot an undergrad who'd attended Public School simply by demeanour. (He of course might have noted the foppish haircuts and the tweed jackets, but I'll give him benefit of doubt). The point isthat these sorts are very good at promoting a positive, confident image of themselves, and the less switched-on can be caught out by this.

Absolutely this.

It's a big factor. Public schools encourage you to set your sights high, and there are usually plenty of examples of success to support it.

Compare that to the advice the careers master gave a friend of mine at her local comp near Hull when she said she wanted to go to university - "There's no point, you'll be pregnant before you are 18" (she got a scholarship to Oxford)

[tabascoboy]

They're going to have to find a new tactic...

Public feel politicians invent or exaggerate culture wars as a tactic, poll suggests

Professor Bobby Duffy, director of the policy institute at King's College London says "evidence suggests" using culture wars "may not be a particularly successful approach to an election".

More than half of people feel politicians are using so-called culture wars to distract from other issues, according to a survey which also found the term "woke" is increasingly seen as an insult.

Almost two thirds (62%) of those polled said politicians "invent or exaggerate" culture wars as a political tactic - up from less than half (44%) three years ago.

Just one in 10 people felt politicians who talk about divisions over cultural issues genuinely believe it is an important topic, with 56% feeling they are just trying to distract people from other important topics.

https://news.sky.com/story/public-feel- ... s-12998875

[Sandstorm]

They're going to have to find a new tactic...

Public feel politicians invent or exaggerate culture wars as a tactic, poll suggests

Professor Bobby Duffy, director of the policy institute at King's College London says "evidence suggests" using culture wars "may not be a particularly successful approach to an election".

More than half of people feel politicians are using so-called culture wars to distract from other issues, according to a survey which also found the term "woke" is increasingly seen as an insult.

Almost two thirds (62%) of those polled said politicians "invent or exaggerate" culture wars as a political tactic - up from less than half (44%) three years ago.

Just one in 10 people felt politicians who talk about divisions over cultural issues genuinely believe it is an important topic, with 56% feeling they are just trying to distract people from other important topics.

https://news.sky.com/story/public-feel- ... s-12998875

Braverman down the Job Centre on Monday.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

People are of course observing that when being asked about it, and in many ways those people it's more likely to work on in terms of pushing people to vote aren't paying much if any attention to politics outside whatever culture wars bollocks they're taking on from social media or from friends and family so they're not thinking about being distracted from that which they don't pay attention to.

Done well the culture wars bad faith approach can be sadly all too effective.

[sturginho]

Labour councillors doing everything they can to put people off voting Labour

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... e-67306141

[Hal Jordan]

People do incredibly stupid shit under pressure.

Which, in the old days, was why people would turn a blind eye to MPs dalliances, etc.

However, when the shit hits the fan, you Expect them to be able to perform under pressure.

I think there is a difference between having a bit on the side on a fairly long term basis or the odd away game (even if it's not the right thing) and Johnson's rampant sexual incontinence which is both an interference to running any competent administration and likely to have been used against him <coughLebedevcough>

[dpedin]

Arguably in some circles the opposite is true - people who speak in RP being seen as brainless toff Fauntleroys.

One thing I would say, and this is very anecdotal, but I've found those who attended Public schools to be ingrained with this 'confidence shield' that those from state school don't necessarily have. I had discussions with a good mate of mine who attended Felsteds and he agreed, and said he could spot an undergrad who'd attended Public School simply by demeanour. (He of course might have noted the foppish haircuts and the tweed jackets, but I'll give him benefit of doubt). The point isthat these sorts are very good at promoting a positive, confident image of themselves, and the less switched-on can be caught out by this.

Absolutely this.

It's a big factor. Public schools encourage you to set your sights high, and there are usually plenty of examples of success to support it.

Compare that to the advice the careers master gave a friend of mine at her local comp near Hull when she said she wanted to go to university - "There's no point, you'll be pregnant before you are 18" (she got a scholarship to Oxford)

It is all part of the game. Public school means better grades in school exams, training in debating and public speaking, lots of help preparing for UCCA applications and entrance exams/interviews, help with course work via family and friends, easier to get work experience or unpaid internships in the 'right' companies, etc. They will work for the right charities doing their volunteering abroad funded by Bank of Mum and Dad. They will go to the right universities and study the right subjects, PPE at Oxford being the classic one but medicine, law, classics, history of art, etc are others. Then once graduated they have all the contacts to then get into Post-Grad programmes in medicine, law, finance, banking, industry, forces, etc. They might even want to work in the HoC and get a wee job as a 'researcher'. Mummy and Daddy will have friends or contacts who are in all the right places and will sort things out for them. Once on the post grad programme, then unless they are really thick, it becomes a conveyor belt to full time jobs, mentoring by top people, etc. No-one who is normal, good at their job and works with them and realises they are hopeless will say the truth because they are 'connected the right people' and will create a stink if they dont get good appraisals - best just to ignore, tick the right appraisal box and let them move on upwards. Once in the loop they will join the right golf club, introduced by Daddy, or the right rugby/cricket/hockey club. Here informal contacts help with business, deals are made on the fairways and greens or the clubhouse afterwards. Some will be made in the officers mess, the Royal college meetings or the private members clubs. Handshakes are done and the deals are made and most importantly the 'right people' are in the right places to ensure continuity and will not disrupt the status quo. After a while they become partners in the law, finance firm, director at the bank, consultant in a top teaching hospital or senior officer in the more prestigious regiments and then some might even decide to give politics a go. Part of the deal is that now they are in positions of influence they return the favour and support their family and friends children in climbing this greasy pole to the 'top' of society.

Living in Edinburgh I have seen all this in action, it creaks and groans a little but it is very much alive and well here. The first question I was often asked when meeting new folk in work is 'what school did you go to?' and there is definitely a pecking order even in the private school system.

[C69]

Labour councillors doing everything they can to put people off voting Labour

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... e-67306141

Yes it's a bit strange tbh.
But anyone not voting Labour on that basis is a complete fucking cock. There are many more reasons to not vote Labour than that

[C69]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

[Biffer]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

I could only tell you the Scottish ones and I presume she doesn't want a degree in Scots Law . Sorry

Edit - however, having said that, some of the rankings are a good place to start. Times Higher Education supplement, good university, QS, Guardian all have detailed ranking systems that explain what they do their ranking on. The absolute most important thing, other than deciding a su ject (which she seems to have already decided) is visiting universities on their open days. She will get a better degree somewhere she's comfortable and happy - seems an obvious statement but a lot of people (parents) make that mistake. The only thing I know for certain about law degrees is that she should do a law degree, rather than a law degree that specialises in a particular area. Specialisation is for later.

[vball]

Re the comments about public school and confidence.
I never went to public or private school (not sure the difference) as there was only one school in the town (and it covered the other nearby towns too) we went there.
We travelled overseas and our kids were born abroad and they went to the local school ... it is heart breaking when you take your 3 year old to school and they do not speak the local language and no nobody. Took them about 6 months to be come fluent saying that. But it built them up.
On coming to Scotland, not home for them as they were born abroad, they went to the village school and then the town secondary school. Both won Scottish debating thingies. Both sports mad and good at it. Both very high exam pass scores.
They are confident people. The lead school houses, captains of teams ... always the people organising things. Always the people standing up to get things done. And not taking a back seat.

So if going to a special school gives more kids that then great. We always need leaders.

[Biffer]

Re the comments about public school and confidence.
I never went to public or private school (not sure the difference) as there was only one school in the town (and it covered the other nearby towns too) we went there.
We travelled overseas and our kids were born abroad and they went to the local school ... it is heart breaking when you take your 3 year old to school and they do not speak the local language and no nobody. Took them about 6 months to be come fluent saying that. But it built them up.
On coming to Scotland, not home for them as they were born abroad, they went to the village school and then the town secondary school. Both won Scottish debating thingies. Both sports mad and good at it. Both very high exam pass scores.
They are confident people. The lead school houses, captains of teams ... always the people organising things. Always the people standing up to get things done. And not taking a back seat.

So if going to a special school gives more kids that then great. We always need leaders.

Glad they developed well through the Scottish system. I'm a great believer in schools that are entirely mixed for background, economic status, intellect etc, and the only way that happens, really, is in rural schools where there's only one option and everyone just goes there.

[C69]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

I could only tell you the Scottish ones and I presume she doesn't want a degree in Scots Law . Sorry

Edit - however, having said that, some of the rankings are a good place to start. Times Higher Education supplement, good university, QS, Guardian all have detailed ranking systems that explain what they do their ranking on. The absolute most important thing, other than deciding a su ject (which she seems to have already decided) is visiting universities on their open days. She will get a better degree somewhere she's comfortable and happy - seems an obvious statement but a lot of people (parents) make that mistake. The only thing I know for certain about law degrees is that she should do a law degree, rather than a law degree that specialises in a particular area. Specialisation is for later.

Thanks, I suspect my early ish retirement plans will be put on a little bit of a hold.
At present she likes the thought of Oxbridge but a quick Google say Durham may be a good bet as well.

[Brazil]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

Does she absolutely want to do law? You don't really need to do it to become a lawyer as most of them do the conversion course after they've done something more interesting.

At Oxford scholarships will usually depend on the college I think, so look for a wealthy one. For Cambridge, I think it depends on how recently you've been recruited by the Russian secret services and whether you can take a hot crumpet from behind without blubbing.

I'll mention it to Lady P as she'll have a far better idea of what the situation is apropos unis for law.

[Paddington Bear]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

Is she looking to do academic law or go to a firm? Solicitor or barrister (may not have got that far)? What sort of firms is she interested in?

Law is going through a big change in how qualification works btw

[Biffer]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

Does she absolutely want to do law? You don't really need to do it to become a lawyer as most of them do the conversion course after they've done something more interesting.

At Oxford scholarships will usually depend on the college I think, so look for a wealthy one. For Cambridge, I think it depends on how recently you've been recruited by the Russian secret services and whether you can take a hot crumpet from behind without blubbing.

I'll mention it to Lady P as she'll have a far better idea of what the situation is apropos unis for law.

That's a very good point - a hell of a lot of people do the two year conversion course to get the law degree after having done frankly just about anything else. It's a very good way to do it.

[Paddington Bear]

Anyone know the top Universities for Law atm. My daughter will be applying next year.
How easy are Oxbridge scholarships to get and would she need entrance exams etc etc
Sorry to be ignorant about this but just starting to look into the issue and where better than here?

Does she absolutely want to do law? You don't really need to do it to become a lawyer as most of them do the conversion course after they've done something more interesting.

At Oxford scholarships will usually depend on the college I think, so look for a wealthy one. For Cambridge, I think it depends on how recently you've been recruited by the Russian secret services and whether you can take a hot crumpet from behind without blubbing.

I'll mention it to Lady P as she'll have a far better idea of what the situation is apropos unis for law.

That's a very good point - a hell of a lot of people do the two year conversion course to get the law degree after having done frankly just about anything else. It's a very good way to do it.

It meant I could do about 8 hours of work and 4 days of cricket a week at uni. Law as undergrad is supposedly an absolute slog. The 1 year conversion in England is hard work but the LPC that follows (or the SQE I believe) is piss easy

[C69]

Does she absolutely want to do law? You don't really need to do it to become a lawyer as most of them do the conversion course after they've done something more interesting.

At Oxford scholarships will usually depend on the college I think, so look for a wealthy one. For Cambridge, I think it depends on how recently you've been recruited by the Russian secret services and whether you can take a hot crumpet from behind without blubbing.

I'll mention it to Lady P as she'll have a far better idea of what the situation is apropos unis for law.

That's a very good point - a hell of a lot of people do the two year conversion course to get the law degree after having done frankly just about anything else. It's a very good way to do it.

It meant I could do about 8 hours of work and 4 days of cricket a week at uni. Law as undergrad is supposedly an absolute slog. The 1 year conversion in England is hard work but the LPC that follows (or the SQE I believe) is piss easy

Hmm thanks guys, very interesting. But the thought of Uni debt etc and accommodation is scary these days.
Do law firms etc sponsor people to go the Uni etc these days.
My wife does medico legal stuff so will get her to speak to her solicitor/Barrister contacts.
NPR

[Paddington Bear]

That's a very good point - a hell of a lot of people do the two year conversion course to get the law degree after having done frankly just about anything else. It's a very good way to do it.

It meant I could do about 8 hours of work and 4 days of cricket a week at uni. Law as undergrad is supposedly an absolute slog. The 1 year conversion in England is hard work but the LPC that follows (or the SQE I believe) is piss easy

Hmm thanks guys, very interesting. But the thought of Uni debt etc and accommodation is scary these days.
Do law firms etc sponsor people to go the Uni etc these days.
My wife does medico legal stuff so will get her to speak to her solicitor/Barrister contacts.
NPR

Law firms will definitely sponsor ‘professional’ exams. Any firm that won’t isn’t worth her time. I’ve never heard of them sponsoring undergrad studies but couldn’t rule it out. If I were you I’d potentially expect to have to help finance her to an extent, I.e most firms for the LPC will pay all study costs plus a living stipend of £3-7,000, liveable off if you live at home, otherwise not.

My big piece of advice would be for her to try and get some sort of legal work experience. Firms prefer people they’ve seen before and offer summer and Christmas schemes, even doing something for a local high street firm will be helpful to an extent. Practising law is absolutely not for everyone, and too many work that out having made themselves miserable for the best part of a decade rather than at the start.

[Biffer]

That's a very good point - a hell of a lot of people do the two year conversion course to get the law degree after having done frankly just about anything else. It's a very good way to do it.

It meant I could do about 8 hours of work and 4 days of cricket a week at uni. Law as undergrad is supposedly an absolute slog. The 1 year conversion in England is hard work but the LPC that follows (or the SQE I believe) is piss easy

Hmm thanks guys, very interesting. But the thought of Uni debt etc and accommodation is scary these days.
Do law firms etc sponsor people to go the Uni etc these days.
My wife does medico legal stuff so will get her to speak to her solicitor/Barrister contacts.
NPR

As Paddington says, the best thing your wife can do if she has contacts is get her some work experience or a summer placement to help with the application - the best degree courses in law are competitive and that will very definitely help. Placements during summer when she's doing the degree will help too.

The debt is just an unfortunate part of degrees in England now. She will leave with a five figure debt but a good law job will soon get rid of that. Also, I'd categorise the debt from fees differently from the debt from living expenses. She has her entire career to pay off the fees, so don't stress about that.

Edit - not sure if law courses do interviews to get into undergrad? Oxbridge definitely will. Might be that a legal contact could help with a mock interview as well.

[Biffer]

It meant I could do about 8 hours of work and 4 days of cricket a week at uni. Law as undergrad is supposedly an absolute slog. The 1 year conversion in England is hard work but the LPC that follows (or the SQE I believe) is piss easy

Hmm thanks guys, very interesting. But the thought of Uni debt etc and accommodation is scary these days.
Do law firms etc sponsor people to go the Uni etc these days.
My wife does medico legal stuff so will get her to speak to her solicitor/Barrister contacts.
NPR

Law firms will definitely sponsor ‘professional’ exams. Any firm that won’t isn’t worth her time. I’ve never heard of them sponsoring undergrad studies but couldn’t rule it out. If I were you I’d potentially expect to have to help finance her to an extent, I.e most firms for the LPC will pay all study costs plus a living stipend of £3-7,000, liveable off if you live at home, otherwise not.

My big piece of advice would be for her to try and get some sort of legal work experience. Firms prefer people they’ve seen before and offer summer and Christmas schemes, even doing something for a local high street firm will be helpful to an extent. Practising law is absolutely not for everyone, and too many work that out having made themselves miserable for the best part of a decade rather than at the start.

Yeah, I know a few people who took a few decades to figure out that it was being a lawyer that was making them miserable, rather than lack of progress / wrong firm / wrong area of law etc.