Kicking off in Israel

[Slick]

Jesus fucking christ, the state of them

To be fair, if we want to be fair, the question takes them off guard, it took me off guard. That is the first time I've heard the events on October the 7th being referred to as an invasion of Israel by Hamas. I just googled "Hamas invasion of Israel" and it only comes up as "attack". The only reference to invasion on the results is by Russia and one further down which refers to an invasion of Gazza by Israel.

If the question had been, "What do you think of the Hamas attacks on the people at the music festival and others on October the 7th?" I think there may have been more in reply, maybe not.

I think thats being incredibly kind to be honest.

[Tichtheid]

I think thats being incredibly kind to be honest.

Perhaps, but I prefer to err that way than the opposite.

[Muttonbird]

I wonder how many of those 136 kids a day have parents who are Hamas soldiers? Did they send their own families South last month?

Considering anyone under eighteen is a child, and Hamas use child soldiers, how many are Hamas themselves?

How fudged are the numbers?

That's not to say innocents aren't being killed.

This is the new line used by Israeli nationalists who seem to want to be able to decided for themselves what constitutes a child. They only do this for Palestinian children though.

[Muttonbird]

Giving civilians a designated safe route to leave a war zone = ethnic cleansing apparently. Rather than just being a decent thing to do.

Israel, decent?

All those deaths are the fault of Hamas and it's supporters.

All those deaths are the fault of Israeli nationalists and their supporters.

On two counts. They are directly responsible through the bombing of civilian areas. They are also responsible because they continue to illegally expand into Palestine through settlement building.

[Raggs]

https://x.com/gaza_report/status/172293 ... 06530?s=20

Hamas police are combatants, forcing progress trying to evacuate to stay in place, Hamas employs women in their police force, not every female casualty is a civilian.

[C69]

If for instance the IDF surrounds a Hamas base and tens oreven hundreds surrender. What to the IDF do with them?

[Sandstorm]

If for instance the IDF surrounds a Hamas base and tens oreven hundreds surrender. What to the IDF do with them?

Send them to Melbourne.

[C69]

If for instance the IDF surrounds a Hamas base and tens oreven hundreds surrender. What to the IDF do with them?

Send them to Melbourne.

I wish someone would send me there.
Not with the IDF or HAMAS murderers though.

[Eugenius]

Gosh I hope that this thread is less polemic and incendiary than it’s PR equivalent.

Even if I’m compromised by several trips to both Israel and Palestine in the last few years , I’ve attempted to be as balanced as I can be , basically arguing that Hamas are a bunch of religious fanatics and ghastly manipulated terrorists that have actioned unspeakable crimes .

However I’ve also argued for restraint from Israel even after such provocation. Having attended the World Counterterrorism conference in Tel Aviv a couple of years in succession and reading the provided literature I’ve got a reasonable grasp of the conflict and what is happening on the ground .

I’m also very aware of the radical nature of the current Israeli government and question it’s interest in peace , not only because of its accelerating support for settlements and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land .

Also the character and history of the current leaders of Israel is pertinent, these being the very same individuals that celebrated openly the assassination of PM Rabin and supported his killer .

I’m hoping that this forum isn’t as shabbily moderated as is PR . Enz in particular has extremely biased views on this issue and rather than moderate consistently and at arms length often indulges his own opinion and will effectively support one polemic at the expense of any other argument .

I’ve had enough frankly and hope that I’ve found a safer home for more proper discussion.

Hardly perfect myself , but being called an antisemite constantly because I question the provided narrative is bloody infuriating.

Worse is this being not only accepted by moderators but effectively encouraged .

[Gumboot]

Howdy Eug, good to see you back. Hope you stick around.

I don't often post on this thread, or the Ukraine one for that matter. Just not knowledgeable enough about either conflict to offer much. There are a number of posters who are well up with the latest developments though, and I think you'll find this place somewhat more cordial, and less prone to circular shitfights or personal abuse than PR. Nowhere's perfect, mind.

Totally off topic, but did you know Bill Milbank?

[Eugenius]

Names familiar .

I think my other 1/2 might know him .

[Gumboot]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-ch ... VSVWNNVE4/

[C69]

Welcome Noobish cnut

[MungoMan]

Gosh I hope that this thread is less polemic and incendiary than it’s PR equivalent.

Even if I’m compromised by several trips to both Israel and Palestine in the last few years , I’ve attempted to be as balanced as I can be , basically arguing that Hamas are a bunch of religious fanatics and ghastly manipulated terrorists that have actioned unspeakable crimes .

However I’ve also argued for restraint from Israel even after such provocation. Having attended the World Counterterrorism conference in Tel Aviv a couple of years in succession and reading the provided literature I’ve got a reasonable grasp of the conflict and what is happening on the ground .

I’m also very aware of the radical nature of the current Israeli government and question it’s interest in peace , not only because of its accelerating support for settlements and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land .

Also the character and history of the current leaders of Israel is pertinent, these being the very same individuals that celebrated openly the assassination of PM Rabin and supported his killer .

I’m hoping that this forum isn’t as shabbily moderated as is PR . Enz in particular has extremely biased views on this issue and rather than moderate consistently and at arms length often indulges his own opinion and will effectively support one polemic at the expense of any other argument .

I’ve had enough frankly and hope that I’ve found a safer home for more proper discussion.

Hardly perfect myself , but being called an antisemite constantly because I question the provided narrative is bloody infuriating.

Worse is this being not only accepted by moderators but effectively encouraged .

Sod off, fleewee.

[Eugenius]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-ch ... VSVWNNVE4/

Oh duh .

Yeah I know more of him that he himself .

I’m mates with Sean who’s featured in that article .

By all accounts a terrific bloke and a guy with ‘the eye’ as Peter McLeavey would say .

[Gumboot]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-ch ... VSVWNNVE4/

Oh duh .

Yeah I know more of him that he himself .

I’m mates with Sean who’s featured in that article .

By all accounts a terrific bloke and a guy with ‘the eye’ as Peter McLeavey would say .

I only knew him through the occasional chat we had when I popped into his gallery.

He has a wonderful collection of Philip Trusttum works, including a grotto of his incredible self portraits.

[Ymx]

Douglas Murray again. Worth listening to.

[Calculon]

brilliant Haka

[Calculon]

If for instance the IDF surrounds a Hamas base and tens oreven hundreds surrender. What to the IDF do with them?

Send them to Melbourne.

I wish someone would send me there.
Not with the IDF or HAMAS murderers though.

I'd happily go with the IDF “murderers”

[Simian]

brilliant Haka

I think that's appalling.

[sockwithaticket]

That's quite interesting. Any of our resident Kiwis have any insight into why a group of Maori would lend their support to Israel in this way? Is this a minority opinion or are there quite strong ties of support between Maori and Jewish and/or Israeli communities in New Zealand?

[Tilly Orifice]

I tried to google it, but apart from the tweet posted above, all I could find was a haka at a pro-Palestinian rally. So maybe Maori are as split as everybody else.

[Calculon]

Maybe cos a lot of Maoris are committed Christians and they tend to support Israel

[Calculon]

brilliant Haka

I think that's appalling.

What I find appalling is pro-palestine marches in Western countries openly calling for genocide against jews, accompanied by a large increase in anti-Semitic harassment and hate crime.

[C69]

Maybe cos a lot of Maoris are committed Christians and they tend to support Israel

Really? The head of the largest Christian Church in the World has calledfor a ceasefire.
I suspect just supporting peace not any particular people is more of a valued Christian trait.

[Sandstorm]

Kiwis will Haka for anything and anyone.

[Simian]

brilliant Haka

I think that's appalling.

What I find appalling is pro-palestine marches in Western countries openly calling for genocide against jews, accompanied by a large increase in anti-Semitic harassment and hate crime.

I mean, there has clearly been a huge increase in anti-Islam sentiment here, as evidenced by what happened in London today.

I thought the gloating in the tweet that a group peacefully rallying were in some way intimidated in to stopping their rally is exactly what most sensible people don’t want to see.

But it’s clear from your pats that you equate pro palenstine with anti Semitic. Growing up and living in glasgow, I’m used to this view. I’m not going to lie and pretend I don’t think it’s unhelpful tho.

[Simian]

Maybe cos a lot of Maoris are committed Christians and they tend to support Israel

Really? The head of the largest Christian Church in the World has calledfor a ceasefire.
I suspect just supporting peace not any particular people is more of a valued Christian trait.

I think this captures my view nicely. You want to align yourself with something that deplores violence and turns the other cheek, that what the pro-Palestine rallies I’ve seen want.

[Calculon]

Maybe cos a lot of Maoris are committed Christians and they tend to support Israel

Really? The head of the largest Christian Church in the World has calledfor a ceasefire.
I suspect just supporting peace not any particular people is more of a valued Christian trait.

Are you always this obtuse, they’re obviously not katlicks. Anyway I’m pretty sure at least some Maori are inclined to support Israel cos of their faith.

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... ort-israel

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... for-israel

[C69]

It's going to be a massive kick in the balls for the Israeli PR machine when more of those babies in incubators and ventilated patients on ICU die.
Macrons words will be wringing in Beni's ears.

[Calculon]

I think that's appalling.

What I find appalling is pro-palestine marches in Western countries openly calling for genocide against jews, accompanied by a large increase in anti-Semitic harassment and hate crime.

I mean, there has clearly been a huge increase in anti-Islam sentiment here, as evidenced by what happened in London today.

I thought the gloating in the tweet that a group peacefully rallying were in some way intimidated in to stopping their rally is exactly what most sensible people don’t want to see.

But it’s clear from your pats that you equate pro palenstine with anti Semitic. Growing up and living in glasgow, I’m used to this view. I’m not going to lie and pretend I don’t think it’s unhelpful tho.

the tweet is gloating that a pro hamas rally was cancelled, i think most sensibile people in the West would not have a problem with that

[C69]

Maybe cos a lot of Maoris are committed Christians and they tend to support Israel

Really? The head of the largest Christian Church in the World has calledfor a ceasefire.
I suspect just supporting peace not any particular people is more of a valued Christian trait.

Are you always this obtuse, they’re obviously not katlicks. Anyway I’m pretty sure at least some Maori are inclined to support Israel cos of their faith.

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... ort-israel

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... for-israel

Your post was unclear, it could be read as Christians tend to support Israel.
Christians in general should support peace.

[Simian]

What I find appalling is pro-palestine marches in Western countries openly calling for genocide against jews, accompanied by a large increase in anti-Semitic harassment and hate crime.

I mean, there has clearly been a huge increase in anti-Islam sentiment here, as evidenced by what happened in London today.

I thought the gloating in the tweet that a group peacefully rallying were in some way intimidated in to stopping their rally is exactly what most sensible people don’t want to see.

But it’s clear from your pats that you equate pro palenstine with anti Semitic. Growing up and living in glasgow, I’m used to this view. I’m not going to lie and pretend I don’t think it’s unhelpful tho.

the tweet is gloating that a pro hamas rally was cancelled, i think most sensibile people in the West would not have a problem with that

Really? Cos I don’t see that that doesn’t directly lead to radicalisation and meeting ‘force with force’

It was a needlessly combative response, no? Or had the pro Palestine group done something to make that the case?

I may not be getting the cultural niche or Hakas (sorry if so), but it’s part celebrating your culture and part combative; no?

Unrelated to this, but this is why I’d like to see these things (and anthems) removed from rugby

[C69]

Maybe cos a lot of Maoris are committed Christians and they tend to support Israel

Really? The head of the largest Christian Church in the World has calledfor a ceasefire.
I suspect just supporting peace not any particular people is more of a valued Christian trait.

Are you always this obtuse, they’re obviously not katlicks. Anyway I’m pretty sure at least some Maori are inclined to support Israel cos of their faith.

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... ort-israel

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... for-israel

The internet is great isn't it

Māori doctors come out for Palestine
November 1, 2023 • 11:40 am
It’s no surprise that a group of Māori doctors have constructed and signed a letter showing their solidarity with Palestine. After all, they see both themselves and Palestinians as people of color who were brutally oppressed by white colonialists (Jews are seen as “white-adjacent”, analogous to New Zealand’s “settler-colonialists” from England, often call representatives of “The Crown”). And so, from the New Zealand Doctor, we have the following letter, sent via a physician who wants to remain anonymous (of course). The accompanying email said this:

This is medicine, not science, but I thought I should send this to you as an example of the elasticity of the local brand of critical social justice ideology.

And the letter:

AN OPEN LETTER

17th October 2023

MĀORI DOCTORS IN SOLIDARITY WITH PALESTINE AN OPEN LETTER

We the undersigned, as Māori medical practitioners, medical students, academics, and as members of the global Indigenous health community, wish to convey our grave and urgent concern for the genocide the people of Palestine face on their ancestral lands. We offer solidarity with Palestine and condemn the violent dispossession and oppression of Palestinians at the hands of the nation-state of Israel, who are supported in their actions by the U.S, the U.K and even some of our own politicians. We write to say they do not speak for us. We condemn colonialism in all forms, we condemn racism, including anti-Muslim racism and we condemn hate.

Locating ourselves at the intersection of Indigenous solidarity and medicine requires us to always speak in solidarity with those who stand against colonialism and racism, to speak for those who cannot speak, and to always challenge those who refuse to speak. We refuse to be silent and complicit as we observe the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people. We cannot be silent while human rights and Indigenous rights are being violated. We understand the blocking of access to crucial emergency healthcare services as a facilitator of genocide. The denial of access to healthcare and medical supplies in the context of war is a further denial of Palestinian humanity.

We call for the widespread condemnation and immediate cessation of the military assault on the peoples of Palestine. As a collective of Indigenous doctors, student doctors and academics we stand in solidarity with a free Palestine. Again we say, Free Palestine.

In indigenous solidarity,

Note that there is not an iota of empathy for Israel or what they suffered during the violence of October 7, or the ongoing Hamas terrorism (they continue to fire rockets into Israel); no mention of Hamas, and no mention of the kidnappings (do they think kidnapping is okay?) There is condemnation of “anti-Muslim racism and hate”, but no condemnation of anti-Semitism. There has never been “ethnic cleansing” of Palestinians in Gaza, but that’s what the Palestinians and Hamas explicitly want for Israel (“from the river to the sea. . . . and so on; and read the Hamas charter). There is no mention of Palestinians being used as human shields, no mention of Palestinian hospitals used as institutional shields for terrorists who operate beneath them. The hospital issue is particularly odious, and surely a group of doctors would object to using doctors and patients as human shields, wouldn’t they?

I’m wondering if the statement, “Locating ourselves at the intersection of Indigenous solidarity and medicine requires us to always speak in solidarity with those who stand against colonialism and racism. . ” means that the signers would have supported Hamas before Israel started defending itself. After all, Hamas claims to stand against colonialism and anti-Muslim racism, so aren’t they required to be supported?

There is no moral compass here, just approbation for one side and condemnation for the side that was viciously attacked. It’s a good example about how one’s moral judgements can be warped by social-justice considerations and misguided identity politics.

Did I mention that Hamas is still firing rockets at Israel, targeting civilians? And that over 200 hostages from Israel and other places remain in Hamas’s hands? The Māori doctors, far away on an island, apparently don’t care; they sympathize with one side only.

There are a pile of signers whose names I’ve put below the fold for the record (access is restricted to the journal)

Click “continue reading” to see the signers:


Signers:

Dr Jaclyn Aramoana-Arlidge – General Surgery Registrar (Waikato) Professor Papaarangi Reid – Public Health Physician, Academic (Te Rarawa) Prof David Tipene-Leach (Ngāti Kahungunu), Research Professor, Public Health Physician Dr Kasey Tawhara – Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Ngāti Raukawa ki te tonga, Ngāti Porou, Te Arawa, Ngāti Ruanui) Dr Arihia Waaka – Anaesthesiologist (Ngati Maahanga, Ngati Pikiao, Ngati Tuwharetoa, Ngati Whakaue) Dr Jessica Keepa – FRNZCGP (Ngāti Porou) Dr Erena Browne – Obstetrics and Gynaecology Registrar (Te Atiawa ki Whakarongotai, Ngāti Awa) Dr Jesse-Ana Harris (Ngāti Kahu, Ngāti Kahu ki Whangaroa) Dr Makere Beale (Anaesthetic Registrar) Ngāti Porou, Te Whānau-ā-Apanui Dr Donna Cormack – Health researcher and teacher (Kāi Tahu, Kāti Māmoe) Dr Haylie Griffen – General Surgery Registrar (Ngāti Awa) Dr Amanda Gimblett (Waikato, Ngāti Maniapoto) Dr Nukumai Wallace – Urgent Care Senior Registrar (Ngāti Tūwharetoa) Dr Molly Anderson – GP Registrar (Ngāpuhi) Caleb Simpkins – (Ngati Rangiwewehi) Dr Mania Campbell-Seymour – GP Registrar (Te Whakatōhea, Te Aitanga a Mahaki, Ngāti Kahungunu ki Te Wairoa, Tūhoe) Dr Rachel Thomson GP – (Te Whanau a Apanui) Dr Ranginui Flavell – Psychiatric Registrar (Ngati Rangiwehehi, Taranaki iwi) Chloe Fergusson-Tibble – Trainee Intern (Te Hikutū, Ngāpuhi, Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairoa) Dr Eden Florence (Kai Tahu, Ngāti Tūwharetoa) Dr Rawiri McKree Jansen, (Ngati Hinerangi, Ngati Raukawa) Dr Matua Jansen, (Ngati Kahungunu, Te Atiawa, Ngati Raukawa) Dr Ben Jansen, (Ngati Hinerangi, Ngati Raukawa) Dr Jane Thomas, Paediatric Anaesthetist and Pain Medicine Specialist (Ngati Porou, Ngati Kahungungu) Dr Jade Tamatea – Endocrinologist and clinical academic (Ngāti Maniapoto, Te Aitanga ā Māhaki) Dr Clarence Kerrison – Gastroenterologist (Ngāti Mākino, Ngāti Awa, Tūwharetoa) Dr Casey Te Rangi (Ngati Tuwharetoa) Dr Tier-Jayde Baker – GP registrar (Ngati awa, te aitanga a hauiti, te whanau a apanui, ngapuhi) Tiana Low – Trainee Intern (Te Arawa, Ngāti Whakaue) Dr Tawera Wharetohunga (Ngati Te Ata, Te Waiohua, Te Waiariki) Dr Joshua Manukonga (Taranaki; Ngā Ruahine ) Tessa Shepherd (Trainee Intern) – Ngāpuhii; Ngāti Hine) Atawhai Stokes, (Ngati Porou, Ngai te rangi) Travis Glassie, (Te Rarawa) Denver Ruwhiu Dr Ashleigh Jensen, (Ngāti Pōrou) Dr Poriana Wall Rebekah Doherty (Training Intern) – Tūhoe, Ngāti Pikiao, Ngāti Raukawa Cushla Moscrip – Trainee Intern (Ngāpuhi) Dr Winnie-Mae Read-Eden (Ngāti Tūwharetoa, Ngāti Kahungunu) Dr Courtney Sullivan – Ngāti Awa, Taranaki, Ngāti Maru Dr Selwyn Te Paa – Ngāti Whātua, Waikato-Tainui Dr Claire Manning – Kāi Tahu Stacy-Ria King – (Rongowhakaata, Tuhoe, Ngapuhi) Dr Asti Ormsby-Grard GP Registrar – Ngāti Kahungunu, Ngāpuhi, Tainui, Ngāti Ranginui Sophia Stewart – Ngāti Kahungnunu ki Wairoa Tanira Kingi (medical student) -Ngāti Whakaue, Tuwharetoa, Ngāti Toa Rangatira, Ngāpuhi, Te Whakatohea Peter Te Para Parker – Ngāti Moko (Tapuika), Ngāti Ranginui, Ngāti Rangitihi, Tūhourangi- Ngāti Wahiao, Ngāti Tūwharetoa, Te Rarawa Breana Jones – Trainee Intern – Ngāti Kahungunu, Te Aitanga a Hauiti, Ngā Rauru Dr Holly Shuja – Ngati Porou Māia Lockyer – Ngāti Kahungunu ki Heretaunga, Ngāti Porou, Rongomaiwahine Dr Liam Gray – Ngāpuhi Te Oranoa Matthews – Medical Student – Te Rarawa, Te Aupouri Logan Murray Dr Zarah Allport (Te Āti Awa) Dr Amanda Smith (Te Uri o Hau, Ngāti Whātua) Dr Te Rina Maze (Ngāti Whitikaupeka, Ngāti Kahungunu, Ngāti Tūwharetoa) Dr Tayla Darrah (Ngāpuhi, Ngati Maru) Dr Yahaira Williams (Ngāti Kahungunu) Dr Emma Wehipeihana (Ngāti Tukorehe, Ngāti Porou) Dr Georgia Richmond (Te Āti Awa) Dr Sam Jackson (Ngāpuhi, Ngāti Whātua, Ngāti Wai, Ngāti Kahu o Whangaroa) Dr Anna Poutu Fay (Ngāti Porou) Dr Kate Ruttley (Kāi Tahu) Merinda Latham Dr Arama Rata (Ngāruahine, Taranaki, Ngāti Maniapoto, Ngāti Apakura) Dr Sophie Stevenson (Ngāti Rangitihi) Chryssie Mikayla Williams (Ngā Puhi) Miss Tiana Maclean-Toro Te Rina Keogh (Ngaati Maniapoto, Hauraki, Ngapuhi) Mr Porourangi Templeton-Reedy – Ngāti Porou, Ngāi Tūhoe, Tainui Dr Nohoana Findlay – Ngāti Awa Dr Maia Melbourne-Wilcox – Tūhoe, Ngāti Porou, Ngāti Kahungungu Julian Laking – Te Whakatōhea Dr Dominique Vao – Ngati Ruanui Dr Jayden Ball – Te Ātiawa Tina Ngata – Ngati Porou Sina Brown-Davis – Te Roroa, Te Uriohau Dr Hinetamatea Mikaere GP registrar – Ngāti Pukenga, Ngāti Raukawa Dr Holly Wilson – Ngāpuhi Awhina Meikle – Trainee Intern – Ngāti Kuri, Te Aupōuri, Te Rarawa, Ngāpuhi Dr Saana Taylor – Whakatōhea Kerena Wano – Taranaki, Te Atiawa, Te Whānau a Apanui, Te Whakatōhea, Ngāti Awa, Ngāti Porou Dr Tania Huria – Ngāi Tahu, Ngāti Mutunga ki Wharekauri Zoe Cotter Dr Mahum Afraz AProf Waikaremoana Waitoki (Ngāti Mahanga, Ngāti Hako) Te Ata – Ngāti Maniapoto, Waikato, Ngāti Apakura, Rereahu, Ngāpuhi Kate Bryant – Waitaha, kāti māmoe, kāi tahu Dr Te Kotahitanga Piripi – Te Rarawa Dr Meg Beaumont – Ngāti Maniapoto Fran Kewene – Waikato, Maniapoto Jeannine Stairmand – Ngati Porou

[Calculon]

LOL

Stop this kind of posting

[Calculon]

Really? The head of the largest Christian Church in the World has calledfor a ceasefire.
I suspect just supporting peace not any particular people is more of a valued Christian trait.

Are you always this obtuse, they’re obviously not katlicks. Anyway I’m pretty sure at least some Maori are inclined to support Israel cos of their faith.

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... ort-israel

https://www.indigenouscoalition.org/art ... for-israel

The internet is great isn't it

ive no idea what point you're trying to make, do you?

[Simian]

LOL

Wtf is wrong with you?

[C69]

[Calculon]

Really? Cos I don’t see that that doesn’t directly lead to radicalisation and meeting ‘force with force’

if you're supporting Hamas you're already radicalised

It was a needlessly combative response, no? Or had the pro Palestine group done something to make that the case?

IDK, maybe they are like the pro Palestine marches in london calling for the genocide of Jews, maybe not

I may not be getting the cultural niche or Hakas (sorry if so), but it’s part celebrating your culture and part combative; no?

im not a Haka expert but this one seemed to be one for showing support to a group of people

Unrelated to this, but this is why I’d like to see these things (and anthems) removed from rugby

[Blackmac]

LOL

LOL?? Really. Laughing at people loosing their legs and wounded kids. Get a fucking grip.