The Official English Rugby Thread

[Saint]

Not officially- but the Championship simply can't survive without supporters paying for match day tickets. There's now no sign of that happening for the foreseeable future

Have they cancelled the Championship?

I suspect the Championship is more resiliant then you think. It will be tough though, players will be more part-time than FT. However, if it did cease altogether then they would ring-fence the Premiership and, as a share-holder, Saracens would take their place in the new 13-team league regardless of what happens in the Championship.

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

[Un Pilier]

Not officially- but the Championship simply can't survive without supporters paying for match day tickets. There's now no sign of that happening for the foreseeable future

Have they cancelled the Championship?

I suspect the Championship is more resiliant then you think. It will be tough though, players will be more part-time than FT. However, if it did cease altogether then they would ring-fence the Premiership and, as a share-holder, Saracens would take their place in the new 13-team league regardless of what happens in the Championship.

I sincerely hope the Championship survives or at least as many clubs as possible. I’m sure you are right there will as a minimum be substantial changes.

As for Sarries, if circumstances dictate that their banishment means they are condemned to a sinking ship I too think their shareholding will come into play - I’m far from clear how so, though.

[Kawazaki]

So when did 36 actually become a poor player? He always had his brainfarts, but equally was a hard working effective player. Couldn't quite hack it at international due to those brainfarts, but now he's seemingly struggling with virtually every aspect of play?

I reckon it was when Matt Toomua, a player 4" shorter and 15kgs lighter than Twelvetrees, literally just ran over him with barely a run-up to score under the posts for Australia v England. It was 7 years ago.

[Kawazaki]

I suspect the Championship is more resiliant then you think. It will be tough though, players will be more part-time than FT. However, if it did cease altogether then they would ring-fence the Premiership and, as a share-holder, Saracens would take their place in the new 13-team league regardless of what happens in the Championship.

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

As much as I suspect you don't want to see it happen, Saracens will be back in the Premiership for the 2021/22 season.

[Saint]

I suspect the Championship is more resiliant then you think. It will be tough though, players will be more part-time than FT. However, if it did cease altogether then they would ring-fence the Premiership and, as a share-holder, Saracens would take their place in the new 13-team league regardless of what happens in the Championship.

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

As much as I suspect you don't want to see it happen, Saracens will be back in the Premiership for the 2021/22 season.

I'm asking a genuine question- what happens for Sarries if there is no Championship for the 20/21 season?

[Kawazaki]

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

As much as I suspect you don't want to see it happen, Saracens will be back in the Premiership for the 2021/22 season.

I'm asking a genuine question- what happens for Sarries if there is no Championship for the 20/21 season?

They'll play about a dozen friendlies against Saffer and French teams.

[geordie_6]

I suspect the Championship is more resiliant then you think. It will be tough though, players will be more part-time than FT. However, if it did cease altogether then they would ring-fence the Premiership and, as a share-holder, Saracens would take their place in the new 13-team league regardless of what happens in the Championship.

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

Following that timeline, isn't that the season in which the four year ringfence would begin?

[Saint]

I suspect the Championship is more resiliant then you think. It will be tough though, players will be more part-time than FT. However, if it did cease altogether then they would ring-fence the Premiership and, as a share-holder, Saracens would take their place in the new 13-team league regardless of what happens in the Championship.

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

Following that timeline, isn't that the season in which the four year ringfence would begin?

That's just a proposal at the moment, which is effectively a non-starter now as it was going to need significant RFU investment.

[geordie_6]

I didn't say cease. I suspect though that it won't run at all this season. So no promotion/relegation for a season, then normal service resumed the following season

Following that timeline, isn't that the season in which the four year ringfence would begin?

That's just a proposal at the moment, which is effectively a non-starter now as it was going to need significant RFU investment.

Ah my apologies, I thought it had been put in place. Cheers Saint.

[sockwithaticket]

Teams for tonight's game:





Fancy Wasps for a narrow win, but I suspect we won't get the try bonus we really need.

[JM2K6]

Wasps with a clear advantage in the front 5 and at 9, so I'd agree a Wasps win. The size of it probably depends on whether Quins fight for this one or not.

Evans v Jack Willis should be a lot of fun for them, if not for everyone else

[Kawazaki]

How many Quins academy in that starting XV?

[JM2K6]

Six. Marler is injured, sadly.

[Raggs]

Wasps with a clear advantage in the front 5 and at 9, so I'd agree a Wasps win. The size of it probably depends on whether Quins fight for this one or not.

Evans v Jack Willis should be a lot of fun for them, if not for everyone else

What's your Game Changing tighthead like? West seems to be an extremely good scrummager, so I'm hoping we might be able to buy a few pens later in the game if we can.

Backrow is going to be an interesting battle. Whilst I'd take Jack W over Evans, I'd probably fancy Robshaw over Shields, and Chisholm over Willis Jr (even though I rate him highly). Marchant always scares me too.

Just hoping Fekitoa doesn't get over excited and gets carded again.

[JM2K6]

Wasps with a clear advantage in the front 5 and at 9, so I'd agree a Wasps win. The size of it probably depends on whether Quins fight for this one or not.

Evans v Jack Willis should be a lot of fun for them, if not for everyone else

What's your Game Changing tighthead like? West seems to be an extremely good scrummager, so I'm hoping we might be able to buy a few pens later in the game if we can.

Backrow is going to be an interesting battle. Whilst I'd take Jack W over Evans, I'd probably fancy Robshaw over Shields, and Chisholm over Willis Jr (even though I rate him highly). Marchant always scares me too.

Just hoping Fekitoa doesn't get over excited and gets carded again.

Kerrod's been OK actually, Louw I have very high hopes for but I've been let down before by our prop signings.

Esterhuizen needs to start matches, he's a bit of a slow lump in midfield but a very large man. I wouldn't be surprised if it took him a few more weeks to get up to speed. Marchant has been a disappointment in attack since his return from NZ; lots of decent defending and good enough decision making but no real attacking threat. Maybe he needs to remember he's not got Telea/Clarke/Ioane/Barrett to feed?

[Kawazaki]

When Covid-19 has finished tearing up the rugby landscape than I hope when the wreckage is eventually repaired that academy-developed and EQP become the preeminent criteria for match-day squads as a red-line condition of ringfencing (which will happen now).

All clubs should meet at least a criteria of 10 EQP for their starting XV with a minimum of 6 of those being ex-academy. Bench should be no less than 6/8 EQP with 5/8 ex-academy leaving match-day squads with a minimum of 11/23 ex-academy and 16/23 EQP.

Those sort of numbers are not unreasonable minimum standards - it would make a few club start investing properly in their academies.

[JM2K6]

Seems an odd match to use for that soapbox. Both Quins and Wasps have been very good at using EQPs and promoting from the academy.

[Kawazaki]

Seems an odd match to use for that soapbox. Both Quins and Wasps have been very good at using EQPs and promoting from the academy.

Don't get so easily triggered, this isn't a match thread.

[JM2K6]

Your bar for what constitutes "triggered" appears to be a line painted on the floor.

[Kawazaki]

Your bar for what constitutes "triggered" appears to be a line painted on the floor.

An England fan discussing England player development and playing opportunity in the English Premiership on the England rugby thread. How remiss of me.

[JM2K6]

I expressed mild puzzlement at the context of your comments. No idea why you're playing the victim.

[Raggs]

I expressed mild puzzlement at the context of your comments. No idea why you're playing the victim.

Surely there comes a point where you just stop interacting with him? I was about to reply to his post, but wondered what the point was. I'm now starting to wonder if he ever posts anything worth my time, and if not, I'm just going to block him.

[Kawazaki]

I expressed mild puzzlement at the context of your comments. No idea why you're playing the victim.

Jesus wept, can't you just treat comments how you find them?

And you have the brass neck to say I'm playing the victim!

[JM2K6]

I expressed mild puzzlement at the context of your comments. No idea why you're playing the victim.

Surely there comes a point where you just stop interacting with him? I was about to reply to his post, but wondered what the point was. I'm now starting to wonder if he ever posts anything worth my time, and if not, I'm just going to block him.

I fully accept it's a me problem :(

[JM2K6]

I expressed mild puzzlement at the context of your comments. No idea why you're playing the victim.

Jesus wept, can't you just treat comments how you find them?

And you have the brass neck to say I'm playing the victim!

Toga, I "found them" in a discussion about Quins v Wasps, right after you asked how many Quins players were academy. There is a direct line there.

A normal person would have responded with "oh, no I wasn't really referring to those two in particular, I was just curious. I do think it would be better for the game if all sides committed to it post-COVID, and if COVID really does damage pro sport then it should be easier to sneak in some improvements like that via the back door" (or whatever you wanted to say to further the discussion)

rather than LOL U TRIGGERED??? which is what you went for

You see how one encourages discussion and the other is just being a dick? I wrote a deliberately non-hostile response and you immediately went on the offensive.

[Kawazaki]

I expressed mild puzzlement at the context of your comments. No idea why you're playing the victim.

Jesus wept, can't you just treat comments how you find them?

And you have the brass neck to say I'm playing the victim!

Toga, I "found them" in a discussion about Quins v Wasps, right after you asked how many Quins players were academy. There is a direct line there.

A normal person would have responded with "oh, no I wasn't really referring to those two in particular, I was just curious. I do think it would be better for the game if all sides committed to it post-COVID, and if COVID really does damage pro sport then it should be easier to sneak in some improvements like that via the back door" (or whatever you wanted to say to further the discussion)

rather than LOL U TRIGGERED??? which is what you went for

You see how one encourages discussion and the other is just being a dick? I wrote a deliberately non-hostile response and you immediately went on the offensive.

I didn't fault the Quins numbers at all. I said ALL teams. You can post-rationalise and see things that simply weren't there, that's what you do. You do this all the time. You were the aggressor with your 'die on a hill' comment. Calm down ffs.

[JM2K6]

I literally have no idea what "you were the aggressor with your 'die on a hill' comment" is meant to mean. Have fun with your discussion!

[Kawazaki]

Maybe try again?

When Covid-19 has finished tearing up the rugby landscape then I hope when the wreckage is eventually repaired that academy-developed and EQP become the preeminent criteria for match-day squads as a red-line condition of ringfencing (which will happen now).

All clubs should meet at least a criteria of 10 EQP for their starting XV with a minimum of 6 of those being ex-academy. Bench should be no less than 6/8 EQP with 5/8 ex-academy leaving match-day squads with a minimum of 11/23 ex-academy and 16/23 EQP.

Those sort of numbers are not unreasonable minimum standards - it would make a few club start investing properly in their academies.

Is this an unreasonable aspiration?

[JM2K6]

It definitely depends on how much damage COVID does. If it's bad enough that CVC cut their losses and there's no hope of the promised land of milk and honey with football-style marketing, sponsorship, and TV deals, then I think it might actually be harmful to impose academy limits (without an associated change to academies) as it'll cut off a lot of EQP professionals from a livelihood, where they could well be exactly the sort of player who should be getting picked ahead of the foreigners in this context.

That is of course assuming that levels below the Premiership are going to struggle to stay professional.

How bad do we think it's going to get? If it's a full reset, we may end up with an almost semi-pro top tier with fewer teams than we have now - I think there must be a genuine risk of clubs going to the wall and the owners getting cold feet.

[Kawazaki]

It definitely depends on how much damage COVID does. If it's bad enough that CVC cut their losses and there's no hope of the promised land of milk and honey with football-style marketing, sponsorship, and TV deals, then I think it might actually be harmful to impose academy limits (without an associated change to academies) as it'll cut off a lot of EQP professionals from a livelihood, where they could well be exactly the sort of player who should be getting picked ahead of the foreigners in this context.

That is of course assuming that levels below the Premiership are going to struggle to stay professional.

How bad do we think it's going to get? If it's a full reset, we may end up with an almost semi-pro top tier with fewer teams than we have now - I think there must be a genuine risk of clubs going to the wall and the owners getting cold feet.

Even as things stand, if a vaccine arrived tomorrow for Covid-19 I still think it will take 5 years for clubs to unwind out of this and fully recover financially. The clubs that rely most on income from match-days will be the hardest hit and ironically that means the most 'well-run' clubs will suffer more than the likes of Bristol, Saracens, LI and maybe Sale (and that's assuming their sugar-daddy owners don't cut their losses). Leicester and Gloucester look in real trouble already. I don't think the RFU can be relied upon to do anything commercial expedient either and the result of the T14 clubs v the FFR court case will likely also have massive implications into how the future relationship between PRL and the RFU develops. I don't think CVC will influence matters a great deal unless they start propping up fellow stakeholders with loans.

As I've already implied, I think the academies are crucial to both the health of the Premiership, English rugby and the unheralded Championship. In a ring-fenced model, things like an academy draft with trades and swaps etc is a real possibility. Clubs could have a salary cap with a collar with minimum wages for young players etc. If the costs of production come down then the pressure of salaries should reduce as well - as will the threat of relegation removed.

[sockwithaticket]

I think your bench academy requirement might be a touch high. I wouldn't want to make it too difficult or not worth club's while to pick up players who might be out of favour at another Prem club or have fallen down to the championship; sometimes a change of environment is the making of such players.

An aspiration for high EQP concentration with room for a handful of overseas stars rather than journeymen is definitely admirable; I think some clubs are there or thereabouts already, but there are definitely some with plenty of work to do on that front.

[Ali Cadoo]

Although philosophically I would be in favour of clubs having a requirement for growing their own players, just imagine how badly skull-fucked they would get by French teams in Europe.

[JM2K6]

Even as things stand, if a vaccine arrived tomorrow for Covid-19 I still think it will take 5 years for clubs to unwind out of this and fully recover financially. The clubs that rely most on income from match-days will be the hardest hit and ironically that means the most 'well-run' clubs will suffer more than the likes of Bristol, Saracens, LI and maybe Sale (and that's assuming their sugar-daddy owners don't cut their losses). Leicester and Gloucester look in real trouble already. I don't think the RFU can be relied upon to do anything commercial expedient either and the result of the T14 clubs v the FFR court case will likely also have massive implications into how the future relationship between PRL and the RFU develops. I don't think CVC will influence matters a great deal unless they start propping up fellow stakeholders with loans.

As I've already implied, I think the academies are crucial to both the health of the Premiership, English rugby and the unheralded Championship. In a ring-fenced model, things like an academy draft with trades and swaps etc is a real possibility. Clubs could have a salary cap with a collar with minimum wages for young players etc. If the costs of production come down then the pressure of salaries should reduce as well - as will the threat of relegation removed.

I don't know much about championship club academies and how they're setup / how well they do - I do know that academies aren't cheap to run and while the plan of enforcing % of academy players certainly would help them pay their way, I'm not sure I can see how the Championship is anything other than a collection of clubs that already basically can't afford to be professional, without major sugar daddies, and with their only income stream drastically reduced.

Do you think they can remain professional?

CVC are pretty interventionist, they won't sit idly by and watch their investment lose money. Either they'll force dramatic changes or they'll get out somehow, I think.

[Kawazaki]

Championship clubs will have to formally pair with a Premiership club. It's like this now to some extent in an unofficial capacity but it would need to be formalised. The Championship then becomes a de facto 'A' league. Removing the bulk of salaries from Championship clubs should hopefully make them more viable.

[ASMO]

Championship clubs will have to formally pair with a Premiership club. It's like this now to some extent in an unofficial capacity but it would need to be formalised. The Championship then becomes a de facto 'A' league. Removing the bulk of salaries from Championship clubs should hopefully make them more viable.

Which Premiership club will be fortunate enough to pair with Sarries then?

[Margin__Walker]

Any academy requirements are much more of an issue for those in the bottom few spots in the league where anyone decent from the academy is instantly tempted away with very little in the way of compensation.

EQP, fair enough.

[Kawazaki]

Championship clubs will have to formally pair with a Premiership club. It's like this now to some extent in an unofficial capacity but it would need to be formalised. The Championship then becomes a de facto 'A' league. Removing the bulk of salaries from Championship clubs should hopefully make them more viable.

Which Premiership club will be fortunate enough to pair with Sarries then?

The one already doing it most likely - Bedford.

[Kawazaki]

Any academy requirements are much more of an issue for those in the bottom few spots in the league where anyone decent from the academy is instantly tempted away with very little in the way of compensation.

EQP, fair enough.

That all changes with ring-fencing. Home produced players would be a currency in their own right given they have value not just as a player but as a prerequisite to meeting qualification criteria for clubs to remain in the Premiership. Clubs simply can't just buy in players if there is a minimum requirement to have home-academy produced in every match-squad. It's time to make the Premiership work for the benefit of English rugby, not as a care-home/superannuation fund for old southern hemisphere players.

[JM2K6]

Championship clubs will have to formally pair with a Premiership club. It's like this now to some extent in an unofficial capacity but it would need to be formalised. The Championship then becomes a de facto 'A' league. Removing the bulk of salaries from Championship clubs should hopefully make them more viable.

That makes sense from a Championship perspective, although they still need to pay for ground rent and all that (though I imagine existing financials in this hypothetical future are up in the air), but are you saying that Premiership clubs would essentially pay for 2 squads?


Relevant to this:

Harlequins will stage their final match of the Gallagher Premiership season tonight, against Wasps. It will be Chris Robshaw’s 299th appearance for the club and his last at the Twickenham Stoop which will, of course, be empty. Whatever happens on the field, Harlequins will lose another £400,000.

Laurie Dalrymple, the club’s chief executive, has issued an “SOS” to the government on behalf of Harlequins and the rest of the Premiership, warning that the double whammy of no fans and no support package would be “catastrophic” to the sport at professional and community level.

In normal times, Harlequins would turn over £25 million a year and expect to make £350,000-400,000 in profit from every home game; from ticket sales, hospitality and sales of merchandise, food and drink. Harlequins have had to stage four fixtures behind closed doors since the season resumed in August, contributing to an annual loss of £7 million in the last financial year.

Next year will be much worse. The government has advised clubs to assume the present restrictions, barring spectators from attending sports events, will be in place for six months. By the end of March, Harlequins could have played ten home matches, one of which would normally have been their festive Big Game at Twickenham.

That Christmas fixture earns the club around £2.5 million. The other nine games at The Stoop up to £3.6 million, not including the other revenue streams such as hiring out the stadium for events and functions plus the knock-on effect of future sponsorship earnings. And that is just to the end of March.


Given that financial backdrop, Dalrymple said the sports minister was “misguided” to say that top tier professional sports clubs would be expected to “look at ways it can support itself with the government focusing on those most in need”.

Nigel Huddleston, who met with the owners of Worcester Warriors over the weekend, was most likely referring to Premier League football but his catch-all comment sent a shiver through professional rugby which is in dire straits.

Dalrymple argues that Premiership clubs are being prevented from trading because the government has shelved the planned return of supporters from October 1 as part of its latest restrictions to contain the spread of Covid-19.

It was a decision that Harlequins disagreed with, given they staged a trial on September 5 that both the club and local council believe was a success. Consequently, Dalrymple argues the need for the government to step in with a rescue package has become all the more urgent.

“It feels like we are at a T-junction for our sport and it will need some serious intervention,” Dalrymple said.

“The idea that elite sports clubs are there to fend for themselves and should be left to get back on their own two feet is hugely misguided. If that is the genuine approach then we are in for an extremely turbulent time indeed and I don’t know how many elite clubs will come through this.

“This is an SOS call to the government and an SOS call to the people who influence the decisions that have been taken that will negatively impact our sport.

“We can’t carry on as we are, expecting to bear the brunt of this when we believe there is an opportunity for us to exist in a safe environment in order for us to engage with our fans.

“While those government decisions make it very difficult to operate, we are going to have to ask for government support.

“If this proposal exists for six months and there are no fans coming in, that will have a huge effect on the entirety of the industry within the elite programme and the community programme.

“It will have a huge risk to the social impact that professional sport can deliver on a daily basis.We deliver projects for children and teenagers in our foundation. Our academy does a huge amount of work in schools, not just finding the next Chris Robshaw but in teacher support, physical support, education support. All those areas fly under the radar but will be profoundly impacted by our inability to trade at any level.

“Sport is a £39 billion industry. It has to be given the opportunity to continue to thrive and survive. The long-term damage effects to the league and the sport as a sector could be catastrophic.”

Dalrymple said he could not “understand or rationalise” the government’s decision to halt the pilot programme, especially as supporters are permitted to watch matches on the big screen in a pub.

“I can’t understand the logic behind that, I have got to be honest,” he said. “It seems baffling to me you can go to the cinema, which is an indoor consumer experience, but you can’t come to an outdoor sports ground.”

The club’s pilot event on September 5 generated around £30,000 in profit but the intention was to demonstrate that it is possible for fans to return safely. The local council worked with Harlequins on the trial and said there were no coronavirus cases linked with attendees of the match.

“It is my opinion that elite sport can be the blueprint for others and we can do this safely and we have a proven model to safely bring supporters and customers back through the door. We would gladly and willingly share that.”

While other Premiership clubs have said they will go bust within six months without financial support from the government, Dalrymple believes the owners will ensure Harlequins stay afloat. But in what guise?

Dalrymple would not be drawn on whether the team may have to go semi-professional but it is a fear among Premiership executives. The chief executive of Surrey County Cricket Club has said players pay could amount to “beer money” in the future; there is no reason to assume rugby, with finances that were already precarious, would be any different.

Harlequins have already implemented wage cuts and been through a redundancy programme. “We have long had investors who are hugely committed to this club and they remain committed but the longer this goes on, and as long as our fundamental revenue lines are restricted, we are going to have to make some extremely difficult decisions across the club,” Dalrymple said. “The landscape of professional rugby could look very different in a year or two.”

[SaintK]

Championship clubs will have to formally pair with a Premiership club. It's like this now to some extent in an unofficial capacity but it would need to be formalised. The Championship then becomes a de facto 'A' league. Removing the bulk of salaries from Championship clubs should hopefully make them more viable.

Which Premiership club will be fortunate enough to pair with Sarries then?