The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Tichtheid]

Kinghorn to Toulouse apparently being announced tomorrow.

Not convinced that’s good for anyone

That's very disappointing, but good luck to him. Boff isn't exactly a bad stand in, he wouldn't have made the mistakes that Blair did on Friday, but I'm not convinced he would have made the the same passes and game breaks Kinghorn did.

Where did you hear it?


edit, Midi Olympique have it, it's immediate and he's signed for another two seasons after this

Yes. I’ve become very comfortable with the flaws for what we get in exchange. Really quite sad to see him go, but all fingers crossed it works out for him, and us

Toulouse could be the very club for him, he is being brought in to replace Jaminet who has been bought by Toulon, but Ramos is still there, as is Capuozzo, Ntamack and Dupont - they might have a bit of firepower in attack.

[Biffer]

Massive blow to Edinburgh's season. He's been the game changer for us most of the time and his threat from deep has defences adapting to deal with him, making space for others.

[Slick]

That's very disappointing, but good luck to him. Boff isn't exactly a bad stand in, he wouldn't have made the mistakes that Blair did on Friday, but I'm not convinced he would have made the the same passes and game breaks Kinghorn did.

Where did you hear it?


edit, Midi Olympique have it, it's immediate and he's signed for another two seasons after this

Yes. I’ve become very comfortable with the flaws for what we get in exchange. Really quite sad to see him go, but all fingers crossed it works out for him, and us

Toulouse could be the very club for him, he is being brought in to replace Jaminet who has been bought by Toulon, but Ramos is still there, as is Capuozzo, Ntamack and Dupont - they might have a bit of firepower in attack.

I think it is a brilliant move for him personally, he, more than anyone else, needs to get out of the Scottish rugby bubble and enjoy himself, especially after the last couple of years. Being around those players and that environment can only be good for him.

From a Scotland point of view it worries me that just after losing Hogg we now have our 15 in France probably not playing a great deal of rugby, at least to begin with. I'm a huge fan of Ollie Smith but I had hoped he had kicked on slightly more although still very young - but if he goes down do we have any SQ 15's in the country?

From an Edinburgh pov, agree 100% with Biffer, it's a big blow.

[Big D]

Lots of factors at play I would guess.

Terrific move for him. A top team and some fabulous players. Fair play to him for taking the risk.

Tough for Edinburgh's hopes this season, but the bean counters and SRU must stick to budget and Duhan last year and Price this year would be unbudgeted pick ups at high cost so offloading a high earner and maybe picking up a fee (not sure if there will be one) probably had to be done if the scenario presented itself.

Going forward, having 5 high earners in the back three is probably a luxury that should be avoided. No reason not to bring more youngsters through there.

[Tichtheid]

Lots of factors at play I would guess.

Terrific move for him. A top team and some fabulous players. Fair play to him for taking the risk.

Tough for Edinburgh's hopes this season, but the bean counters and SRU must stick to budget and Duhan last year and Price this year would be unbudgeted pick ups at high cost so offloading a high earner and maybe picking up a fee (not sure if there will be one) probably had to be done if the scenario presented itself.

Going forward, having 5 high earners in the back three is probably a luxury that should be avoided. No reason not to bring more youngsters through there.

The starting back three will be Duhan, Graham and Boffelli, with Goosen the main sub right cross the line. Then there are two youngsters, Sweeney and Paterson. Also Cammy Scott played 15 against the Dragons, but I expect him to play 10 when Healy is either on international duty or on rotation..

[Jock42]

Shite news as an Edinburgh supporter, good news as a Scotland one though. All the best to him, hope he makes the best of it.

[KingBlairhorn]

On one hand it feels like he’s needed this for a while, on the other hand we need to find a way to make it so players at Edinburgh and Glasgow don’t need to leave to elevate themselves. Our league is bursting to the seams with top quality players and teams, and you don’t see players from the likes of Leinster having to leave to reach their ultimate potential. Why is that?

[Big D]

On one hand it feels like he’s needed this for a while, on the other hand we need to find a way to make it so players at Edinburgh and Glasgow don’t need to leave to elevate themselves. Our league is bursting to the seams with top quality players and teams, and you don’t see players from the likes of Leinster having to leave to reach their ultimate potential. Why is that?

They have four teams all generating income as well as IRFU funds which allows more flexibility than the SRU has with Edinburgh and Glasgow especially given an unexpected budget hit for Edinburgh picking up two B&I lions out with "normal" recruitment season.

Leinster are also a winning team with high achievement and that likely buys some grace come wage negotiations. Not many players can leave Leinster and go to better teams.

Most "big" players that move do either to better teams or for more money (often both). Has been the same since Gray went to Sale for a reported £200k a year at the time. The SRU don't have the funds to pay the market rates for some of these players.

[Big D]

Lots of factors at play I would guess.

Terrific move for him. A top team and some fabulous players. Fair play to him for taking the risk.

Tough for Edinburgh's hopes this season, but the bean counters and SRU must stick to budget and Duhan last year and Price this year would be unbudgeted pick ups at high cost so offloading a high earner and maybe picking up a fee (not sure if there will be one) probably had to be done if the scenario presented itself.

Going forward, having 5 high earners in the back three is probably a luxury that should be avoided. No reason not to bring more youngsters through there.

The starting back three will be Duhan, Graham and Boffelli, with Goosen the main sub right cross the line. Then there are two youngsters, Sweeney and Paterson. Also Cammy Scott played 15 against the Dragons, but I expect him to play 10 when Healy is either on international duty or on rotation..

Which is probably closer to how it should be. Adding Kinghorn to that list now he is back to being predominantly a 15 has too much budget tied up in the back 3 IMO. Especially as Edinburgh are likely going to have to spend to bring in a decent TH (or two) when Nel retires.

[fishfoodie]

Shite news as an Edinburgh supporter, good news as a Scotland one though. All the best to him, hope he makes the best of it.

You hope !

The French clubs have a habit flogging the shit out of mercenaries. When Sexton went to Racing, he got injured way more than when he had the IRFU managing his playing hours, & that was also when repeated concussions became an issue for him too.

[robmatic]

Lots of factors at play I would guess.

Terrific move for him. A top team and some fabulous players. Fair play to him for taking the risk.

Tough for Edinburgh's hopes this season, but the bean counters and SRU must stick to budget and Duhan last year and Price this year would be unbudgeted pick ups at high cost so offloading a high earner and maybe picking up a fee (not sure if there will be one) probably had to be done if the scenario presented itself.

Going forward, having 5 high earners in the back three is probably a luxury that should be avoided. No reason not to bring more youngsters through there.

The starting back three will be Duhan, Graham and Boffelli, with Goosen the main sub right cross the line. Then there are two youngsters, Sweeney and Paterson. Also Cammy Scott played 15 against the Dragons, but I expect him to play 10 when Healy is either on international duty or on rotation..

I wouldn't be surprised to see a squad player (maybe even two) coming in to bolster the ranks alongside the youngsters. Cammy Scott is now our only back up number 10 for the whole season when we need two on the books for when Healy is unavailable. We had Tim Swiel but he seems to be injured/gone? The back 3 looks fine when everyone is fit but Boffelli, Graham, Sweeney and Jake Henry are all injured at the moment so even with the youngsters stepping up there's a potential issue there.

[Big D]

Interesting tidbits from Ritchie on the rugby pod.

Glasgow offered him an academy contract at the start but Edinburgh offered full pro deal. I either forgot or didn't know that.

He had a sabbatical clause for after WC but chose not to use it.

[Jock42]

Shite news as an Edinburgh supporter, good news as a Scotland one though. All the best to him, hope he makes the best of it.

You hope !

The French clubs have a habit flogging the shit out of mercenaries. When Sexton went to Racing, he got injured way more than when he had the IRFU managing his playing hours, & that was also when repeated concussions became an issue for him too.

Aye but it's not just that. As others have said it gives a bit more scope for youngsters to get some game time which is needed with just 2 teams.

[KingBlairhorn]

On one hand it feels like he’s needed this for a while, on the other hand we need to find a way to make it so players at Edinburgh and Glasgow don’t need to leave to elevate themselves. Our league is bursting to the seams with top quality players and teams, and you don’t see players from the likes of Leinster having to leave to reach their ultimate potential. Why is that?

They have four teams all generating income as well as IRFU funds which allows more flexibility than the SRU has with Edinburgh and Glasgow especially given an unexpected budget hit for Edinburgh picking up two B&I lions out with "normal" recruitment season.

Leinster are also a winning team with high achievement and that likely buys some grace come wage negotiations. Not many players can leave Leinster and go to better teams.

Most "big" players that move do either to better teams or for more money (often both). Has been the same since Gray went to Sale for a reported £200k a year at the time. The SRU don't have the funds to pay the market rates for some of these players.

All that is true but is answering a question I didn’t ask. My question is why do we have players that (at least as we perceive it) cannot reach their full potential without leaving? That’s not a money question, it’s a performance and development question. Russell, Hogg, the Grays, the narrative for all is they needed to leave to hit the heights. Maitland apparently got better when he left, Gilchrist never reached his true potential by staying, nor Ford or possibly Zander. Now we all agree (I think) the same is true of Kinghorn. Paying him more money wouldn’t make him reach that level here so what is it that’s missing? We have more or less the entire Scottish national team minus a few players at just two teams playing in a tough league so what makes our environment different to the Irish or South African or even the welsh teams? They all get the absolute best out their players.

[LenCohen]

I'd disagree that Hogg or Gray have been better at Exeter, they've simply won things because Exeter had a great squad for a a few years. R Gray was fine in toulouse but has played some of the best rugby of his career back at Glasgow. Ford, Gilchrist, Fagerson...maybe that is as good as they would ever get? Other than fords athletic ability, I don't see any reason why they would be anything other than what they are.
Ireland-they simply have a bigger pool of good homegrown players. SA-half their squad does play abroad. Wales-it's not heir regions which get the best from their players, it's the national teams. Any stellar Warburton performances for Cardiff spring to mind?
FWIW, I don't thing toulouse is a good move for Kinghorn. The fans don't particularly want foreigners taking up JIF places unless they can bring something that no French player can (ie a aKaino or a Tekori). He will win them over with proper standout performances, but if he's below par or even just mediocre, the whole scenario will quickly turn to custard.

[Tichtheid]

I'd disagree that Hogg or Gray have been better at Exeter, they've simply won things because Exeter had a great squad for a a few years. R Gray was fine in toulouse but has played some of the best rugby of his career back at Glasgow. Ford, Gilchrist, Fagerson...maybe that is as good as they would ever get? Other than fords athletic ability, I don't see any reason why they would be anything other than what they are.
Ireland-they simply have a bigger pool of good homegrown players. SA-half their squad does play abroad. Wales-it's not heir regions which get the best from their players, it's the national teams. Any stellar Warburton performances for Cardiff spring to mind?
FWIW, I don't thing toulouse is a good move for Kinghorn. The fans don't particularly want foreigners taking up JIF places unless they can bring something that no French player can (ie a aKaino or a Tekori). He will win them over with proper standout performances, but if he's below par or even just mediocre, the whole scenario will quickly turn to custard.

Is there another poster with a pic of Leonard Cohen as their avatar and who isn't Scottish? I'm confused

Anyway, personally I thought Big Richie was tremendous with Toulouse, I have a friend who is a Sale season ticket holder and he never saw what the fuss was about when Gray was there, so I think there are a few things at play and when you click with others in the team it really click.

I also thought Hoggy varied between good and spectacular at Exeter.

On BK, I've made my opinion of him pretty clear over the course, but I can also see there are gaping holes in his game. I've been surprised before, Visser became a complete player who was catching balls above his head and defensively sound in his positioning after a short period for Quins. I really hope it happens for Kinghorn at Stade Toulousain, at least he'll be familiar with the red and black.

[Camroc2]

On one hand it feels like he’s needed this for a while, on the other hand we need to find a way to make it so players at Edinburgh and Glasgow don’t need to leave to elevate themselves. Our league is bursting to the seams with top quality players and teams, and you don’t see players from the likes of Leinster having to leave to reach their ultimate potential. Why is that?

They have four teams all generating income as well as IRFU funds which allows more flexibility than the SRU has with Edinburgh and Glasgow especially given an unexpected budget hit for Edinburgh picking up two B&I lions out with "normal" recruitment season.

Leinster are also a winning team with high achievement and that likely buys some grace come wage negotiations. Not many players can leave Leinster and go to better teams.

Most "big" players that move do either to better teams or for more money (often both). Has been the same since Gray went to Sale for a reported £200k a year at the time. The SRU don't have the funds to pay the market rates for some of these players.

To intrude briefly, and speaking about Leinster solely.

The Leinster u/a system brands players from 15/16 up with the provincial brand. How does this work ? Firstly you have the schools system, both fee paying and non fee paying, in which success at rugby is part of the schools culture. But in the last 20 years, Leinster have organised club rugby so that, at this stage, it is reckoned that a professional Leinster coach will have seen every talented rugby player in the clubs, play at least twice before they reach the age of 16; and that's when those club players enter the Leinster system. They are allocated to one of five regional areas, and given professional coaching, gym and dietary (and general life) advice. There would be a hundred or so kids from the clubs enter at age 15/16, and perhaps at the end, a handful (or fewer) of them make it to the Leinster Academy each year.

They know that if they are not at their best, there is always someone coming up behind them to take their place.

And the success of the system ?

Leinster have a senior squad of 44 players; 38 of them came through the Leinster underage system, 1 (Henshaw) through Connacht, and 5 (Ala'alatoa, Gibson-Park, Jenkins, Ngatai, and Lowe) from abroad; and 29 of them have Irish caps.

The investment in underage rugby is what is important, having professional coaches interact very regularly with as many talented players from age 15/16 up.

[Big D]

On one hand it feels like he’s needed this for a while, on the other hand we need to find a way to make it so players at Edinburgh and Glasgow don’t need to leave to elevate themselves. Our league is bursting to the seams with top quality players and teams, and you don’t see players from the likes of Leinster having to leave to reach their ultimate potential. Why is that?

They have four teams all generating income as well as IRFU funds which allows more flexibility than the SRU has with Edinburgh and Glasgow especially given an unexpected budget hit for Edinburgh picking up two B&I lions out with "normal" recruitment season.

Leinster are also a winning team with high achievement and that likely buys some grace come wage negotiations. Not many players can leave Leinster and go to better teams.

Most "big" players that move do either to better teams or for more money (often both). Has been the same since Gray went to Sale for a reported £200k a year at the time. The SRU don't have the funds to pay the market rates for some of these players.

All that is true but is answering a question I didn’t ask. My question is why do we have players that (at least as we perceive it) cannot reach their full potential without leaving? That’s not a money question, it’s a performance and development question. Russell, Hogg, the Grays, the narrative for all is they needed to leave to hit the heights. Maitland apparently got better when he left, Gilchrist never reached his true potential by staying, nor Ford or possibly Zander. Now we all agree (I think) the same is true of Kinghorn. Paying him more money wouldn’t make him reach that level here so what is it that’s missing? We have more or less the entire Scottish national team minus a few players at just two teams playing in a tough league so what makes our environment different to the Irish or South African or even the welsh teams? They all get the absolute best out their players.

Budget is a part of it. Allows better coaching throughout and having the ability to buy in quality to improve or maintain overall levels if need be.

Ireland and South Africa have better players, systems and a deeper pool of players from bottom to top. Consistently higher quality environments lead to better outcomes.

The Welsh club teams are a shambles and have been for a long time. Gatland just managed to draw every ounce of ability out them. They've succeeded in spite of the clubs.

Players are very insulated in the SRU bubble with little competition which can lead to being too comfortable. They know the SRU are a nice wee comfort blanket. The SRU at times will sign players who are SQ but not necessarily providing enough of an improvement in quality, Scott Steele being a recent example. Some would argue that is a neccesary evil.

Some coaches hang around for a long time too which can reduce effectiveness for example Townsend will have been involved with some of the Glasgow players their whole career, Hodge spent 9 years as a coach with Scotland and Edinburgh, Murray 9 years at Glasgow. With Townsend it probably isnt a bad thing but it is still the same voice.

Some of the bigger name Scotland players have moved to some very good club sides. The salary cap busting Saracens side would have given many national sides a fright.

[Tichtheid]

Kinghorn still an Edinburgh player, for now






Unavailable: Mark Bennett, Emiliano Boffelli, Luan de Bruin, Darcy Graham, Jake Henry, Mikey Jones, Viliame Mata, Cam Neild, Sam Skinner, Scott Steele, Nathan Sweeney, Hamish Watson.

[Jock42]

Was just coming here to ask about that. Gives him a chance to see goodbye

[dpedin]

Like the look of the back row - Ritchie - Crosbie - Boyle. No the biggest trio but all punch above their weight - strong carriers, dynamic and skillful. Also all young and in their prime with big engines. They will also be looking to play fast rugby and all of them run good support lines when we have the ball. As long as our front 5 are solid , which they should be, then I can see these guys doing some damage.

[Yr Alban]

BK going to Toulouse is worrying from an Embra perspective. Leaves the squad looking very light at 15 for me. Not to mention that releasing a key player just as the squad seem to be getting their shit together is exactly the sort of self-harm you’d expect.

[KingBlairhorn]

BK going to Toulouse is worrying from an Embra perspective. Leaves the squad looking very light at 15 for me. Not to mention that releasing a key player just as the squad seem to be getting their shit together is exactly the sort of self-harm you’d expect.

BBC reporting a 6 figure release fee. I presume that is a year of salary so in the region of £150-250k. That's a big swing for the SRU who lost £10m last year, as much as £500k difference in the accounts (i.e.5% of their last year's losses) was probably too much for them to turn down.

I agree though, they are looking light at fullback. Boffelli is obviously an excellent starting 15, but Patterson is the only recognised other 15 in the squad. Tim Sweil can (and will presumably tomorrow) play at 15, Graham has played there previously as have Goosen and Jacob Henry. I think they can muddle by if they are lucky with injuries but any significant issues and they will be playing multiple players out of position or raw academy boys. Fingers crossed a young whipper snapper emerges promptly to give us some depth at club and country.

[Tichtheid]

BK going to Toulouse is worrying from an Embra perspective. Leaves the squad looking very light at 15 for me. Not to mention that releasing a key player just as the squad seem to be getting their shit together is exactly the sort of self-harm you’d expect.

Aye, for years we've been saying that the way to win things is to have a squad where the replacement who comes in is as good or nearly as good as the starter, the other side of that coin is of course keeping players match fit and on form with game time - on that note I reckon Boyle will become a challenger for Darge now that he's getting a run of games, they have pushed each other all the way up, it's not going to change now.

On tomorrow night, this is a big game for Crosbie, I've been shouting into the wind for ages that he looks like a perfect fit at 8 to me.

[Tichtheid]

Official confirmation now, he's with Embra until after the Ulster game, I wonder if that ties with Graham and Boff being expected back?

https://edinburghrugby.org/news-and-fea ... -toulouse/

[Big D]

Shades of the Denton deal 8 years ago.

Six figure fee and a large wage earner off the books. I wonder if this has been on the cards since before the Price move?

[robmatic]

Shades of the Denton deal 8 years ago.

Six figure fee and a large wage earner off the books. I wonder if this has been on the cards since before the Price move?

I think his exit at the end of the season was certainly already planned in.

To be honest, it makes Price's move even less strategic for me. We lose an international 15/10 and another one of our back up 10s to stock up with another 9, when we already had options there.

[Dogbert]

On one hand it feels like he’s needed this for a while, on the other hand we need to find a way to make it so players at Edinburgh and Glasgow don’t need to leave to elevate themselves. Our league is bursting to the seams with top quality players and teams, and you don’t see players from the likes of Leinster having to leave to reach their ultimate potential. Why is that?

They have four teams all generating income as well as IRFU funds which allows more flexibility than the SRU has with Edinburgh and Glasgow especially given an unexpected budget hit for Edinburgh picking up two B&I lions out with "normal" recruitment season.

Leinster are also a winning team with high achievement and that likely buys some grace come wage negotiations. Not many players can leave Leinster and go to better teams.

Most "big" players that move do either to better teams or for more money (often both). Has been the same since Gray went to Sale for a reported £200k a year at the time. The SRU don't have the funds to pay the market rates for some of these players.

All that is true but is answering a question I didn’t ask. My question is why do we have players that (at least as we perceive it) cannot reach their full potential without leaving? That’s not a money question, it’s a performance and development question. Russell, Hogg, the Grays, the narrative for all is they needed to leave to hit the heights. Maitland apparently got better when he left, Gilchrist never reached his true potential by staying, nor Ford or possibly Zander. Now we all agree (I think) the same is true of Kinghorn. Paying him more money wouldn’t make him reach that level here so what is it that’s missing? We have more or less the entire Scottish national team minus a few players at just two teams playing in a tough league so what makes our environment different to the Irish or South African or even the welsh teams? They all get the absolute best out their players.

To have great poets, there must be great audiences

[Tichtheid]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

[Slick]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

Think I’ve said it before, but Gabby and Kenny had their son playing at one of my old clubs, and one I’m still very much involved with, Beaconsfield RFC. Right from when he started Gabby was one of the kitchen volunteers every weekend and Kenny was one of the car park attendants with his hi-vis every weekend . A wonderful family

[Tichtheid]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

Think I’ve said it before, but Gabby and Kenny had their son playing at one of my old clubs, and one I’m still very much involved with, Beaconsfield RFC. Right from when he started Gabby was one of the kitchen volunteers every weekend and Kenny was one of the car park attendants with his hi-vis every weekend . A wonderful family

Yeah, they come cross as good people.

[Tichtheid]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

Think I’ve said it before, but Gabby and Kenny had their son playing at one of my old clubs, and one I’m still very much involved with, Beaconsfield RFC. Right from when he started Gabby was one of the kitchen volunteers every weekend and Kenny was one of the car park attendants with his hi-vis every weekend . A wonderful family

Are Beaconsfield anywhere near Hemel Hempstead in terms of league position? My sister and brother in law live a stone's throw from their ground, if you have a very good arm, but I've never been there when there was a game on.

[Slick]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

Think I’ve said it before, but Gabby and Kenny had their son playing at one of my old clubs, and one I’m still very much involved with, Beaconsfield RFC. Right from when he started Gabby was one of the kitchen volunteers every weekend and Kenny was one of the car park attendants with his hi-vis every weekend . A wonderful family

Are Beaconsfield anywhere near Hemel Hempstead in terms of league position? My sister and brother in law live a stone's throw from their ground, if you have a very good arm, but I've never been there when there was a game on.

Good question.

I think Hemel are now in the same league as my main club from down south (where I played from 7 - 30+yrs, with a few breaks) Amersham and Chiltern - also Paddington’s club. Beaconsfield are a couple of leagues lower

[Yr Alban]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

Sadly it's a familiar story. Scottish player is successful, becomes an economic migrant to England to play his rugby, has kids there because that's the age most people have kids at, they choose England.

You don't have to be a rugby player to be an economic migrant of course. Which is how you get players with names like Fraser Dingwall and Ruaridh McConnochie in the England setup (granted the latter has come back to the light).

[Tichtheid]

This may be old news, but Reuben Logan, son of Kenny and Gabby, grandson of Terry Yorath and hence qualified for Scotland, Wales and England, is in the England U18 squad. The kid is six foot five and eighteen stone at 17 years old, back row, having played centre and wing, so he probably has a bit of pace about him.

Shoulda stayed in Stirling, Kenny, brought the family up right.

Sadly it's a familiar story. Scottish player is successful, becomes an economic migrant to England to play his rugby, has kids there because that's the age most people have kids at, they choose England.

You don't have to be a rugby player to be an economic migrant of course. Which is how you get players with names like Fraser Dingwall and Ruaridh McConnochie in the England setup (granted the latter has come back to the light).

I'm an economic migrant.
It's funny how these things work, my three were never really into sport, although my eldest plays tag rugby. They're not particularly Scottish, or English for that matter. My mate from school has two sons who are really into sport and they are as rabidly Scottish as they come when it comes to rugby despite being born and brought up in London, and if they were good enough there is only one team they'd play for.

Ewan Ashman was in that category I believe.

[Big D]

Meh, English born son of English born, Welsh Commonwealth Games representative choses to play age grade rugby for England while it directly benefits his employment status.

It is the entirely appropriate and sensible thing to do.

If I were a decent prospect outside the SRU system I wouldn't be in a hurry to get involved in that situation. The national team is doing well but the U20s are not in the elite competition again next year and it isn't obvious they will by the time Logan is u20s.

On a separate but semi related note I also worry the SRU/Edinburgh have bungled the development of some of our talented young players by not getting them enough game time earlier.

- Sykes for example is older than the three of the four main Leicester second rows (Martin, Chessum, Henderson), has already played fewer games and by the end of this season will have significantly less game time. They took a chance on quality younger players whereas Edinburgh since Sykes has been pro have brought in two senior second rows ahead of him.
- Crosbie - 27 by the end of the season and hasn't played 100 pro games yet.
- Boyle - Has spent the equivalent of less than 20 games on the pitch for Edinburgh and is nearly 24.

[Sandstorm]

- Sykes for example is older than the three of the four main Leicester second rows (Martin, Chessum, Henderson), has already played fewer games and by the end of this season will have significantly less game time. They took a chance on quality younger players whereas Edinburgh since Sykes has been pro have brought in two senior second rows ahead of him.
- Crosbie - 27 by the end of the season and hasn't played 100 pro games yet.
- Boyle - Has spent the equivalent of less than 20 games on the pitch for Edinburgh and is nearly 24.

Surely you can look at it the other way around: the coaches looked at Sykes/Crosbie/Boyle and decided he's not good enough, so went shopping for better players? Coaches don't leave out players based solely on age.

[Tichtheid]

Meh, English born son of English born, Welsh Commonwealth Games representative choses to play age grade rugby for England while it directly benefits his employment status.

It is the entirely appropriate and sensible thing to do.

If I were a decent prospect outside the SRU system I wouldn't be in a hurry to get involved in that situation. The national team is doing well but the U20s are not in the elite competition again next year and it isn't obvious they will by the time Logan is u20s.

On a separate but semi related note I also worry the SRU/Edinburgh have bungled the development of some of our talented young players by not getting them enough game time earlier.

- Sykes for example is older than the three of the four main Leicester second rows (Martin, Chessum, Henderson), has already played fewer games and by the end of this season will have significantly less game time. They took a chance on quality younger players whereas Edinburgh since Sykes has been pro have brought in two senior second rows ahead of him.
- Crosbie - 27 by the end of the season and hasn't played 100 pro games yet.
- Boyle - Has spent the equivalent of less than 20 games on the pitch for Edinburgh and is nearly 24.

I'm not so sure on those particular examples, Crosbie is a member of the Scotland squad now, he is a year older than Matt Fagerson but has a similar number of club appearances to his name, but I'd say the competition for places in the backrow is and has been stronger at Edinburgh for quite some time, hence Darge and Miller going over and Darge immediately becoming a first choice pick. Edinburgh brought through a lot of good backrow players, I think even Watson joined as an academy player.

Sykes is 23 and has 45 appearances under his belt, including being in the 23 every game so far this season, Boyle has 36 Edinburgh caps, despite the same difficulties in getting game time that faced Darge, I think that now he is getting a clear run of games he will force his way into the team, Watson could well be the guy losing out to him.

[Tichtheid]

- Sykes for example is older than the three of the four main Leicester second rows (Martin, Chessum, Henderson), has already played fewer games and by the end of this season will have significantly less game time. They took a chance on quality younger players whereas Edinburgh since Sykes has been pro have brought in two senior second rows ahead of him.
- Crosbie - 27 by the end of the season and hasn't played 100 pro games yet.
- Boyle - Has spent the equivalent of less than 20 games on the pitch for Edinburgh and is nearly 24.

Surely you can look at it the other way around: the coaches looked at Sykes/Crosbie/Boyle and decided he's not good enough, so went shopping for better players? Coaches don't leave out players based solely on age.

Most of the competition is home-grown, or developed at Edinburgh, even Bill Mata came to us never having played 15s, or not professionally

[Tichtheid]

Charlie Shiel is someone who I thought would kick on but if I'm being totally honest he hasn't grasped his chances when they've presented themselves, I really want him to succeed but he just doesn't seem to have that extra half percent that sorts the good players from the professional level, never mind the international class. It was similar with Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, I really wanted him to be the top player that looked like becoming, but despite years on the park he still had a wayward pass, he had everything else, but for a scrum half that one basic element is non-negotiable.

Props on both sides is a worrying situation, apart from Walker we don't have anyone beyond imports and a couple of kids in the academy who may or may not make the grade