Kicking off in Israel

[Uncle fester]

See my post above. He's a pretty tone deaf politician.

[fishfoodie]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say Ireland is very vocally pro Palestine. The wording can then be easily viewed as trying to lessen the fact that a child was kidnapped and returned as part of a exchange deal. I very much doubt that was what Leo meant, but it's simple enough to see that no? Especially when framed from where it is coming from.

Fine if it's one of the shinners but it's the leader of fine Gael.
Plus the girl is an Irish citizen so of course he's going to comment.

He's absolutely right to comment, but the phrasing could have done with some work!

First of all, top job in deciding that the 5 million odd people in Ireland all have the same opinion. Well done !

This is a continuation of the same shit that always happens with Israel/Palestine; neither side allows for any nuance. Your either completely with them, or you're the enemy, & thus every statement is cast in the light of the whether you've already decided that the individual or in this case & entire Country is opposed to Israel.

It's all bullshit !

The reality is that the current Ambassador that Israel has sent to Ireland is a moron, & if the Israeli Government has any clue, she will never, ever, hold any Diplomatic position again; lest the stupid cow starts a war.

The only Irish Political Party that isn't full throatily against Hamas, & violence is Sinn Fein; & if the Israeli Ambassador had half a fucking clue, she'd have thanked the Irish PM for his sentiment & reiterated the Israeli Governments commitment to return all hostages to their loved ones, & demanded the International communities support in this effort, because everything else feeds the SF narrative, & gives them a much better chance of leading the next Irish Government, & an Ambassador with a room temperature IQ would know this isn't a good outcome, & wouldn't be stirring shit between Israel & Ireland.

[Raggs]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

[fishfoodie]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

Before the 2nd Gulf War, the US/UK was pissed at the Vatican, because they were asking everyone to look for peace, & explaining the simple truth that in a war everyone loses.

When the US got in a huff & loudly proclaimed their right for vengeance for a crime that never happened; the Vatican responded that a friend will always try to stop a friend doing harm to themselves, even if that may cost themselves that friendship.


I remember that, because it struck me as just about the most profound expression of friendship there is, & one that will by definition will never be appreciated.

Israel has had plenty of friends trying to advise it not to do itself long term harm, while blinded with rage, (& political expedience) about the horrors committed by Hamas; but just like the GHB administration, the aren't interested in hearing about consequences, they just want blind , unthinking, support.

[Guy Smiley]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

As a counter to this, how many Palestinian children are held prisoner in Israel? Are they not also hostages, held for extended periods including long before and into this current conflict?

[C69]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

As a counter to this, how many Palestinian children are held prisoner in Israel? Are they not also hostages, held for extended periods including long before and into this current conflict?

Administrative detention without trial and held by the IDF for many.
Held because of guilt by association where relatives of those arrested are also held.
Sad

[Raggs]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

As a counter to this, how many Palestinian children are held prisoner in Israel? Are they not also hostages, held for extended periods including long before and into this current conflict?

I don't know. I don't know if they're awaiting trial or simply without. I learnt yesterday that child is actually under 19 though (not suggesting that there aren't very young children being held, just that not everyone classed as a child is some poor helpless thing). Quite a few of those released are only not murderers through luck rather than judgment. Every one of the prisoners up for release have been charged and processed I believe.

I do know that no one is simply saying they're "lost" though.

[Tichtheid]

I do know that no one is simply saying they're "lost" though.

That use of language was explained, contextualised and even criticised by Fester. It was probably a good idea to accept the explanation and move on from it.

[Raggs]

I do know that no one is simply saying they're "lost" though.

That use of language was explained, contextualised and even criticised by Fester. It was probably a good idea to accept the explanation and move on from it.

I was replying to someone who was trying to complain about people not seeing solace in those words. I don't think it's unreasonable not to think, "yeah, that's just a lovely bible quote." when it's coming from a non-religious man, has been paraphrased, is not referenced to the bible or shown to be a quotation in any way, and is in reference to a 9 year old Jewish girl (the quote is from the new testament).

[Tichtheid]

I do know that no one is simply saying they're "lost" though.

That use of language was explained, contextualised and even criticised by Fester. It was probably a good idea to accept the explanation and move on from it.

I was replying to someone who was trying to complain about people not seeing solace in those words. I don't think it's unreasonable not to think, "yeah, that's just a lovely bible quote." when it's coming from a non-religious man, has been paraphrased, is not referenced to the bible or shown to be a quotation in any way, and is in reference to a 9 year old Jewish girl (the quote is from the new testament).

The wider point is that the unwillingness or inability to cede even a 16th, let alone an inch of the smallest detail is what leads to intransigence and only diminishes the likelihood of a positive dialogue.

[Raggs]

The wider point is that the unwillingness or inability to cede even a 16th, let alone an inch of the smallest detail is what leads to intransigence and only diminishes the likelihood of a positive dialogue.

Unless you know the context of the quote, and as I suggested, it's not unreasonable to not expect such a quote from him anyway, it's not a statement of positive dialogue! Most of the people reading it, will not know the context.

Yes, summoning the ambassador is a fecking stupid thing to do, but the tweet was fecking poor as well.

[Guy Smiley]

Holding Israel to the same exacting standards that are demanded by those supporting Israel would be an interesting experiment.

[Ymx]

I do know that no one is simply saying they're "lost" though.

That use of language was explained, contextualised and even criticised by Fester. It was probably a good idea to accept the explanation and move on from it.

Are we still the two tier moderator on this thread then?

[Ymx]

Piers not thinking too much of his clarification

[Tichtheid]

I do know that no one is simply saying they're "lost" though.

That use of language was explained, contextualised and even criticised by Fester. It was probably a good idea to accept the explanation and move on from it.

Are we still the two tier moderator on this thread then?

I really got under your skin and upset you with that, didn't I? Here we are weeks later.

Hey ho, I'm not going to get into a dung slinging fight over it.

[Slick]

Piers not thinking too much of his clarification

He's such a cunt. Piers Moron, for avoidance of doubt.

[Ymx]

That use of language was explained, contextualised and even criticised by Fester. It was probably a good idea to accept the explanation and move on from it.

Are we still the two tier moderator on this thread then?

I really got under your skin and upset you with that, didn't I? Here we are weeks later.

Hey ho, I'm not going to get into a dung slinging fight over it.

I find it hard to be too tough on you. As I’m sure you believe it’s your moral righteous duty.

But just maybe consider that it might not be appropriate to tell Raggs of all people to “move on”.

[Tichtheid]

Are we still the two tier moderator on this thread then?

I really got under your skin and upset you with that, didn't I? Here we are weeks later.

Hey ho, I'm not going to get into a dung slinging fight over it.

I find it hard to be too tough on you. As I’m sure you believe it’s your moral righteous duty.

But just maybe consider that it might not be appropriate to tell Raggs of all people to “move on”.

That is a misrepresentation.

It's also an illustration as to why it's so difficult to reach any kind of common ground or progress in the discussion, too much baggage.

[Tichtheid]

He's such a cunt. Piers Moron, for avoidance of doubt.

It's another example of "if you're not 100% one of us then you're of them"

[Slick]

He's such a cunt. Piers Moron, for avoidance of doubt.

It's another example of "if you're not 100% one of us then you're of them"

It is, and agree with all your last few posts on it.

He has also been around long enough to know that diplomacy is a different language and every statement can't possibly have a long qualifier. But he gets a few more clicks.

[Ymx]

Piers not thinking too much of his clarification

He's such a cunt. Piers Moron, for avoidance of doubt.

I don’t disagree. But his points are fair.

[Slick]

They are not fair, they are ridiculous clickbait

[Ymx]

For the leader of a country that had one of its citizens held hostage by murderous terrorists who was rightfully criticised for their tweet, this hardly put that the bed, has it ?!

[Slick]

For the leader of a country that had one of its citizens held hostage by murderous terrorists who was rightfully criticised for their tweet, this hardly put that the bed, has it ?!

That's the point, no one, including you or Moron, know what's going on behind the scenes or what other factors are in play here. Whatever was going on behind the scenes led to the release of one of his citizens held hostage by murderous terrorists, so may he, rightly, doesn't give a fuck what Moron thinks.

[Ymx]

That’s fair

[Slick]

That’s fair

Fuck off, this is the internet, where's the catch?

[Ymx]

That’s fair

Fuck off, this is the internet, where's the catch?

Sorry, let me try that again in a bit …

My mini pies are ready from the oven

[Ymx]

Mini pies are exceptionally good this x-mas season. Both M&S and Sainos ... By pies I mean little savoury meat ones.

Where were we ...

I was originally thinking - am I being harsh as there may be conditions on the release of the child hostage, leveraged on the security of other hostages?? Whilst there are well there are no other Irish hostages as far as I'm aware, there may be based on non-Irish hostages safety too he needs to consider.

Then the pie timer went off.

But, actually, what kind of world leader allows himself to be hamstrung on his words by terrorists? Or is it probably not the case, and is it in fact the case that he is not calling them terrorists because he is in a country who is intrinsically minded against the Jewish Israelis??

I'll be honest, I do find this much harder with you though Slick. I'm struggling to find the fire. It's kind of like kissing your sister.

[Uncle fester]

Had a feeling that I'd be talking about this when I logged in.
Leo was trying to be clever with a biblical reference but it comes off as tone deaf which is about par for him.


Israel can FO with the summons though. Clearly a disingenuous ploy to try and bully the Irish government into backing their policies.

What stupid fuck would see malice in these words of solace?

Completely agree. Twisting those words to have some sort of malicious intent behind them seems extremely disingenuous.

Well look where we ended up.

[Ymx]

I just read about this.

I think what’s most disturbing is that it’s not Hamas, but instead a baying mob in West Bank.

Spoiler warning - it’s graphic.

Two Palestinians accused of colluding with IDF.



Absolute animals

[Slick]

Mini pies are exceptionally good this x-mas season. Both M&S and Sainos ... By pies I mean little savoury meat ones.

Where were we ...

I was originally thinking - am I being harsh as there may be conditions on the release of the child hostage, leveraged on the security of other hostages?? Whilst there are well there are no other Irish hostages as far as I'm aware, there may be based on non-Irish hostages safety too he needs to consider.

Then the pie timer went off.

But, actually, what kind of world leader allows himself to be hamstrung on his words by terrorists? Or is it probably not the case, and is it in fact the case that he is not calling them terrorists because he is in a country who is intrinsically minded against the Jewish Israelis??

I'll be honest, I do find this much harder with you though Slick. I'm struggling to find the fire. It's kind of like kissing your sister.

Oh christ, that really did get internety

I’m very much in the both sides are cunts faction I think

[Uncle fester]

Elusive peace on bbc4 now.
What a weapons grade kant Sharon was.

[Simian]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

You didn’t. But YMX asked if everyone in Ireland was as warped as their PM tho. Which, in the grand scheme of things, is (to me anyway) an absolutely ridiculous (hysterical in the non laughing sense) response to a debate about what ‘lost’ means. I mean, FFS.

[Raggs]

Yep, I was absolutely saying that all five million is pro Palestine. Get a grip.

On another note. Ceasefire agreement stated that mother's and children would be released together. 13 year old girl released today without her mother. Hamas said they'd lost track of the mother, the girl says she was with her up until two days ago (well after the agreement was signed), before Hamas split them up.

You didn’t. But YMX asked if everyone in Ireland was as warped as their PM tho. Which, in the grand scheme of things, is (to me anyway) an absolutely ridiculous (hysterical in the non laughing sense) response to a debate about what ‘lost’ means. I mean, FFS.

I was the one quoted though. And my original response on this was to someone who claimed that no one should be upset by such words of solace.

Back to hostages, Hamas are showing off a letter of thanks one of the captives wrote them whilst still in captivity, about how well they've been treated, I think she was aware that she was being released, but they've kept her husband, I believe a grandparent (or parent), and in breach of the ceasefire agreement, her three year old twins. I'm sure the letter is genuine though.

[Guy Smiley]

Raggs, why does Israel make a habit of imprisoning Palestinian children?

Why do they refer to those children as 'people under 18' when Israeli people under 18 are referred to as children?

Why does Israel hold so many Palestinians in jail, sometimes for extended periods over months, sometimes without charge, and those people are not referred to as hostages?

[C69]

Raggs, why does Israel make a habit of imprisoning Palestinian children?

Why do they refer to those children as 'people under 18' when Israeli people under 18 are referred to as children?

Why does Israel hold so many Palestinians in jail, sometimes for extended periods over months, sometimes without charge, and those people are not referred to as hostages?

A lot of these are not in jail they are held in military administrative centres which are renowned for the mistreatment of the interns.
It's about humanising hostages and dehumanising prisoners.

[Ymx]

Speaking of children

[Raggs]

Raggs, why does Israel make a habit of imprisoning Palestinian children?

Why do they refer to those children as 'people under 18' when Israeli people under 18 are referred to as children?

Why does Israel hold so many Palestinians in jail, sometimes for extended periods over months, sometimes without charge, and those people are not referred to as hostages?

It seems by Hamas' definition, child is someone of 18 years and younger.

I don't have the ability to search in Hebrew for the law texts, to see the wording in Hebrew, could you please link me to these.

Why does New Zealand make a habit of imprisoning children?

Why do they refer to those children as Young Persons if they are 14 or older? Or Adults if those children are 17 or older (apparently in your post Israel still refers to these as people under 18, rather than just straight up adults like the NZ system).

https://wwwex.ilo.org/dyn/natlex2/natle ... 202018.pdf

I've already stated my issues to people being held without charge in administrative detention. Why are court waiting times in New Zealand nearly a year and a half? Why can people be remanded in custody whilst waiting for their trial to complete?

I hope New Zealand have actually implemented the UNs recommendation and stopped arbitrarily and indefinitely holding asylum seekers in detention centres.

https://www.unhcr.org/au/publications/u ... um-seekers

And I hope that the practice recorded in 2015 of simply recalling someone to prison after they've finished their assigned prison sentence has been removed too.

[Raggs]

The look and reaction from the kid being made to wave goodbye to his kidnappers, reminds me so much of my nephew of about the same age it made me grin. An adult would just fake smile and do it, trust a 13 year old (or there abouts) to treat it with the disdain it deserves with no thought to the consequences.

[Tichtheid]

The look and reaction from the kid being made to wave goodbye to his kidnappers, reminds me so much of my nephew of about the same age it made me grin. An adult would just fake smile and do it, trust a 13 year old (or there abouts) to treat it with the disdain it deserves with no thought to the consequences.

The hand raise and the head turn are two different people.

I find it difficult to read anything into what happens there. That's not to say there isn't disdain, but it may be a case of seeing what one wants to see