Kicking off in Israel

[Line6 HXFX]

I mean the solution (2 state) has been doing the rounds since the seventies (through the UN etc) and Israel, again, and again has stepped in to stop it.
Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state, for the reasons outlined. Essentially lots of young angry men, on Israels border, with practically zero resources (water) able to import all sorts of nasty shit to "protect" themselves, ., and so they (Israelies) think of that (two state solution...or the only solution) as a massive threat to their security.
So nothing is going to change..

I honestly thought everyone knew this? Guys if you don't even know this you should just you know, go away and sneer at the bins etc.

This is also why the English don't want the Welsh to do this (borrow to invest and be able fly the nest). Isreal can embargo, control, and imprision Palestine through poverty and penury...again loke the English do to the welsh.

This is hardly news.

As an aside...Wales wanted to borrow and invest to avoid austerity, not in guns and arms. but in things like the NHS, invest in clean energy, rail infrastructure.. when borrowing was so cheap they were giving cash away.. David Cameron and George Osborne (our tory oppressors) wanted Wales to suffer terribly as Wales doing well and England doing Austerity would be a tory nightmare.

Again.. actually happenned.
Sneer at the bins. Not me.

Post 3, astute as fuck again.

[Line6 HXFX]

Basically I was eight weeks ahead of the curve, as per... There has to be some recognition of the fucked up just waste of energy, this debate is?
Based on the false premise that Israel would ever allow a two state solution.

Israel wants everyone dead or gone, always did.
Of course you have to rationalise genocide.
That's all the last 60 pages were..
Rationalising genocide.
Now what the fuck do we do about it, knowing the truth?

I reckon Utah will be a great fit for the murdering, land grabbing thieving twats.


...I mean unless you want to reward the cunts?

[David in Gwent]

The piece in today's Telegraph highlights that very same issue.
And how hundreds of millions of dollars were siphoned off to Hamas. Israel basically armed these cunts and allowed the Gaza infra structure to crumble.
Now a million dispossessed next door to Israel.
It's gonna be a cluster fuck. For decades

Did the article say how Israel could have stopped the siphoning of cash to Hamas?

The article made it clear it happened for years and it is strongly suggested Bibi knew and did not care were the money went.

Well, if the media "strongly suggests" something, it must be true.

[Guy Smiley]

Did the article say how Israel could have stopped the siphoning of cash to Hamas?

The article made it clear it happened for years and it is strongly suggested Bibi knew and did not care were the money went.

Well, if the media "strongly suggests" something, it must be true.

Hilarious. Possibly your funniest post ever.

[C69]

The article made it clear it happened for years and it is strongly suggested Bibi knew and did not care were the money went.

Well, if the media "strongly suggests" something, it must be true.

Hilarious. Possibly your funniest post ever.

I thought it showed him up as a dumb cunt tbh.

[Hugo]

Is there any knowledge on the likely destination of the Palestinian refugees? Based off of past situations presumably Europe.

the fact that they may come to Europe and not other Arab countries tells you everything you need to know.

I was thinking about this, when there is a humanitarian crisis in the ME it often results in refugees being admitted into Europe. The end result of this is that it accelerates the spread/growth of Islam in Europe.

This might sound like a crazy conspiracy theory but I wonder if that has been the long game of the Arab world all along. Even if every last Palestinian is removed from Israel the simple fact is that Israel can only grow so large in terms of population and size. It will still be a small country with a small population. However, Islam has room to grow exponentially in Europe and elsewhere in the west.

Like I said it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory but these thoughts have crossed my mind.

[Hugo]

The countries (other than the US and Israel) who voted against the ceasefire resolution in the General Assembly:

Europe - Austria, Czech Republic,
Lat Am - Guatemala, Paraguay,
Africa - Liberia &
Oceania - Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea.

Anyone know why Austria and the Czech Rep voted against?

Czech pointed out that the call still didn't condemn the Hamas attack on the 7th breaking the previous ceasefire, along with similar points.

Unga aren't binding resolutions (not that the binding UN ones are either).

Thanks.

[Biffer]

The three hostages the IDF shot were shirtless and waving a white cloth on a stick.

[fishfoodie]

The three hostages the IDF shot were shirtless and waving a white cloth on a stick.

The IDFs Rules of Engagement working as expected.

The Israeli public are mostly fine when its arabs, but its different when they're on the receiving end.

[Uncle fester]

The three hostages the IDF shot were shirtless and waving a white cloth on a stick.

The IDFs Rules of Engagement working as expected.

The Israeli public are mostly fine when its arabs, but its different when they're on the receiving end.

The first two were shot almost immediately but they had to hunt the third down while he shouted at them in Hebrew.

Doesn't do much to dispel the notion that they are mowing down anything that moves.

[sefton]

Any concept that the IDF is trying to minimise civilian casualties is blown out of the water.

[C69]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67738111

Three Israeli hostages mistakenly killed by Israeli soldiers in Gaza were shot dead while holding a white cloth, an Israeli military official says.

The official said the case was "against our rules of engagement" and an investigation was happening at the "highest level".

The hostages - Yotam Haim, 28, Samer Talalka, 22, and Alon Shamriz, 26 - were killed in Shejaiya on Friday.

Israeli troops have been facing stiff resistance in the area near Gaza City.

The case will add pressure on Israeli authorities to reach a deal for the release of captives who remain in Gaza.

More than 120 people remain hostage in Gaza, after being abducted in the Hamas attacks on 7 October. The wait of their families has gripped Israel, as the military carries out its offensive against Hamas.

An Israeli military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said an initial investigation by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) suggested the three hostages emerged shirtless from a building, with one carrying a stick with a white cloth.

One of the soldiers, the official added, felt threatened, as the men were at a distance of tens of metres, declared them "terrorists" and opened fired. Two were immediately killed while the third, wounded, returned to the building.

A cry for help was heard in Hebrew and the battalion commander ordered the troops to cease fire. The wounded hostage later re-emerged, and was shot and killed, the official said.

The hostages had either been abandoned by their captors or escaped, the official added.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the incident as an "unbearable tragedy". "We will bind up our wounds, learn the lessons and continue with a supreme effort to return all our abductees home safely," he said.

Meanwhile a freed Thai hostage who was held with the three men recalled his time with them.

Wichian Temthong, 37, said he was "very shocked" and "saddened" to learn of the deaths of the men he spent nearly 50 days in captivity with.

He said they had no common language so they used hand signals to communicate and give each other moral support.

Bibi and his reactionary wingnuts seem to be facing a bit of a backlash at home and internationally

[Uncle fester]

Have a bit of sympathy for the soldiers themselves. They've been put into this situation where everything is a potential threat but their mission is to rescue civilians mixed in with the enemy combatants + civilians from their side.

Going back to the point that using a conventional military response with unclear objectives against a guerilla force embedded in civilian area isn't a great strategy.

[Guy Smiley]

Going back to the point that using a conventional military response with unclear objectives against a guerilla force embedded in civilian area isn't a great strategy.

This is more about unrestrained fury and revenge than it is about any conceivable strategy.

[Uncle fester]

Going back to the point that using a conventional military response with unclear objectives against a guerilla force embedded in civilian area isn't a great strategy.

This is more about unrestrained fury and revenge than it is about any conceivable strategy.

I was being diplomatic.

[fishfoodie]

Going back to the point that using a conventional military response with unclear objectives against a guerilla force embedded in civilian area isn't a great strategy.

This is more about unrestrained fury and revenge than it is about any conceivable strategy.

I was being diplomatic.

Unlike Bibi !

Now the IDF have killed more of the hostages, they were sent in to rescue than Hamas.

Lets also not forget that IDF is predominately made up of civilians, for whom the IDF is a number a weeks a year, when their not being a butcher, baker, candlestick maker.

[Uncle fester]

This is more about unrestrained fury and revenge than it is about any conceivable strategy.

I was being diplomatic.

Unlike Bibi !

Now the IDF have killed more of the hostages, they were sent in to rescue than Hamas.

Lets also not forget that IDF is predominately made up of civilians, for whom the IDF is a number a weeks a year, when their not being a butcher, baker, candlestick maker.

Is that true of the ground troops being sent in though? From talking to our colleagues over, I got the impression that it's the grizzled pros being sent in while the conscripts and reservists get to mind the canteen and toilet blocks.

[fishfoodie]

I was being diplomatic.

Unlike Bibi !

Now the IDF have killed more of the hostages, they were sent in to rescue than Hamas.

Lets also not forget that IDF is predominately made up of civilians, for whom the IDF is a number a weeks a year, when their not being a butcher, baker, candlestick maker.

Is that true of the ground troops being sent in though? From talking to our colleagues over, I got the impression that it's the grizzled pros being sent in while the conscripts and reservists get to mind the canteen and toilet blocks.

They don't have enough grizzled pros to do a massive operation like this. Fundamentally they're a citizen army, with a strong core of professional officers, & the lions share of pros are in the airforce, & places like submarines, where you just can't turn up for a few weeks a year & be worth a shit. They've also had a fairly quite time of it the last decade or so, so the troops they have, don't have the experience of the invasion of the Lebanon or anything at that level. It's one thing bombing the shit out of opponents who have zero ability to defend themselves, its a different matter going building to building in an urban environment.

When it comes to stuff like clearing buildings, they might try to use guys that aren't totally out of their depth, but there's a limitation to how many of them they have, & it takes a toll on them, & they have to rotate what they do have.

I worked with a guy who was a tanker, & he used to dread doing the reserve duty, because it was about 5' 4", & about the same around the waist, so he used to joke he'd need someone to step on his head to get him inside the tank, because he was the driver !

[C69]

So the UK and Germany are calling for a sustained ceasefire.
Wtf is that?

[Sandstorm]

So the UK and Germany are calling for a sustained ceasefire.
Wtf is that?

Allow the civilians a few weeks to get out of the way, then the IDF can go destroy Hamas again?

[C69]

So the UK and Germany are calling for a sustained ceasefire.
Wtf is that?

Allow the civilians a few weeks to get out of the way, then the IDF can go destroy Hamas again?

I wish it was so. However it is not quite the surgical precision that was suggested by Israel.
I watched a former Pentagon official last night laugh at the suggestion that the bombing was able to pinpoint targets with precision.
Apparently only have of the 30000 bombs dropped have this capability and Israel are astoundingly dropping bombs from the Vietnam era. Which I found quite astounding. The former Pentagon official on the Beeb pointed out that in one of these strikes a targeted low level HAMAS official was blow up along with 120 civilians who were at a nearby school.
The place will be inhabitable for years.
Probably until the Israelis clear it for their settlers in the future..

[Line6 HXFX]

If you maimed my kid..like Israel are doing to thousands of children, I would go to my grave with the singular intent of maiming you and yours.

I would be 100% justified in doing so.

Soooo how the fuck is hurting palistinians, in this way hurting hamas?
You are recruiting tens of thousand of people, to the "fuck you" cause.

I wouldn't give two shits about Hamas, politics, international psychodramas...the only thing I would care about is fucking you up.
Bringing it to you, with every single ounce of random, irrational violence I can muster..

I cannot fucking believe I have to explain this..it is like stupid moronic cunts, are driving the stupid fucking moronic cunt narrative in the western media.
Going after hamas..by trying to kill every innocent fucker?

Jesus christ.
It's like white South Africans are now in charge of all the shit down there..

Israeli Jews / white South Africans are not that clever are they?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Which only adds to the cycle of violence, which is what you start by objecting to and then reason bollocks to that let's continue, lengthen and further the violence. In essence you don't even agree with yourself

[C69]

Which only adds to the cycle of violence, which is what you start by objecting to and then reason bollocks to that let's continue, lengthen and further the violence. In essence you don't even agree with yourself

It's quite clear what he is posting, hypothecating through a different lens.
It makes complete sense for many.

It's what Israel did after the October atrocities. Thepunished the women and children of Palestine.
They knew and know they will not get all thehostages back with this policy, they knew and know they will not destroy Hamas.
They have created a million and a half dispossesed seperate homless people with nothing absolutely nothing.
Their cities razed to the ground their chance of a state now in tatters. Israel have radicalised the youth now and support for Hamas has massively increased in this demographic.
Bibi has assuaged the right wingers with rivers of Palestinian blood and destroyed their cities and economy.
They will become unwanted and unable to work in Israel. The USA has dropped the shark on this and China and Russia are pissing themselves laughing.
Bibi with the support of USA planes and bombs has created a couple of generations of martyrs.
Stupid cnuts

[Uncle fester]

Very interesting article quoting Daniel Seidemann.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... merons-ear

Nearly 200,000 of the 700,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank would have to be relocated to Israel to create a viable Palestinian state, according to an Israeli lawyer from whom the UK foreign secretary, Lord Cameron, has sought advice on his visits to Israel.

Seidemann stressed that he did not see a two-state solution as an objective, saying: “The objective is ending the occupation in a way that is compatible with the interests of both sides. If the occupation does not end, it is going to be the end of Israel and of the Palestinians. The only way to end the occupation is a border. I wish it were otherwise, but it is not.”

Have made this very point a few times.

He also predicted that “Netanyahu will be gone. The only question is how much damage he will cause on the way out. All of the people of consequence in Israel have zero faith in him. What comes after him is unknowable. But there is a sense that we have to reestablish the state of Israel.

“It will be a very traumatised public that does not want to hear about peace, but there will be new leadership, many of whom will come from the military because they are the most coherent, and almost all of them are two-staters.”

Click on to read the rest.

TLDR
He thinks peace is possible but Israel would have to make serious changes.

[C69]

So the UK and Germany are calling for a sustained ceasefire.
Wtf is that?

Allow the civilians a few weeks to get out of the way, then the IDF can go destroy Hamas again?

I wish it was so. However it is not quite the surgical precision that was suggested by Israel.
I watched a former Pentagon official last night laugh at the suggestion that the bombing was able to pinpoint targets with precision.
Apparently only have of the 30000 bombs dropped have this capability and Israel are astoundingly dropping bombs from the Vietnam era. Which I found quite astounding. The former Pentagon official on the Beeb pointed out that in one of these strikes a targeted low level HAMAS official was blow up along with 120 civilians who were at a nearby school.
The place will be inhabitable for years.
Probably until the Israelis clear it for their settlers in the future..

According to reports from CNN and The Washington Post, the U.S. intelligence community believes that up to 45 percent of the bombs Israel has dropped in Gaza were unguided, a tactic that Israel’s military has defended. Geoff Bennett discusses those weapons with retired Air Force Lt. Gen. David Deptula and Marc Garlasco, former chief of high value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Read the Full Transcript
Notice: Transcripts are machine and human generated and lightly edited for accuracy. They may contain errors.

Geoff Bennett:

Earlier this week, both CNN and The Washington Post reported that the U.S. intelligence this community believes that 40 to 45 percent of the bombs that Israel has dropped in Gaza were unguided so-called dumb bombs, as opposed to precision munitions, which are much more accurate.

Israel says it has struck over 22,000 terror targets in Gaza since the Hamas attacks on October 7. An Israeli military spokesman defended the use of unguided bombs, telling the "NewsHour" in a statement that — quote — "The IDF strikes military targets of the Hamas terrorist organization based on high-quality intelligence, while using high-quality munitions that are operated by skilled pilots and advanced systems. The type of munitions used in each strike is determined according to the characteristics of the target, the operational need, and the effort to mitigate harm to civilians."

Two perspectives now on the Israeli use of unguided bombs in Gaza.

Retired Lieutenant General David Deptula had a 36-year career in the Air Force and played major roles in planning American bombing campaigns in numerous wars, including Iraq in 1991 and Afghanistan in 2001. And Marc Garlasco was the chief of high-value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency from 1997 to 2003. He led teams that plan attacks, while limiting civilian deaths. He then worked for Human Rights Watch, where he investigated attacks against civilians.

With a welcome to you both, Marc, I will start with you.

What's your reaction to reports that 40 to 45 percent of the bombs that Israel is dropping and Gaza have been unguided?

Marc Garlasco, PAX Protection of Civilians: Well, honestly, I'm really shocked.

There's three reasons that you want to use precision-guided munitions. You want to destroy your target with minimal civilian harm, while upholding the laws of war. And there's nothing that's going to do a better job of doing that than a precision-guided munition, especially compared to an unguided bomb.

Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet. That's highly problematic. And let's just look at U.S. practice. In '91, 8 percent of all bombs dropped on Iraq were precision. In 99, there were 33 percent of the bombs dropped on Serbia were precision.

Then, in '02 and in '03, we had 65 percent of all bombs were precision-guided for Afghanistan and Iraq. And by Libya in 2011, it was 100 percent. But, really, it's not just the use of unguarded munitions that's leading to so many civilian deaths in Gaza. It's the choices that Israel's Israel's making of not applying civilian harm mitigation, of not using smaller weapons with less blast and fragmentation, like the GBU-39 that they could be using.

And this is why we're seeing upwards of 20,000 dead Palestinians right now.

Geoff Bennett:

General Deptula, I want to get your reaction to what Marc Garlasco just had to say.

And why is it OK for Israel to use unguided bombs, when the U.S. doesn't use them anymore?

Lt. Gen. David Deptula (Ret.), U.S. Air Force: Well, Geoff, what I tell you is, the use of a weapon is highly dependent upon the effects that need to be accomplished.

The collateral damage concerns regarding a particular target, and the accuracy of the weapon system in its entirety, not just the bomb itself. A dumb bomb delivered by a smart aircraft can still be accurate.

So, there are legitimate reasons to use low-cost dumb bombs. An example is hitting a weapons storage location in an area where intelligence has determined there are no collateral damage or civilian casualty concerns.

In other cases, there are fleeting targets that don't allow for the process of obtaining coordinates for GPS-guided weapons or obstacles that prevent a laser-guided delivery. So the pilot with a precise delivery system can quickly get to the target and deliver accurately before the opportunity evaporates.

The bottom line is, I have seen the exquisite care the Israeli Defense Force takes to avoid civilian casualties. They have extraordinarily stringent rules for avoiding collateral damage. And I'm told by a very good source that Israel only uses dumb bombs after they clear an area.

Geoff Bennett:

Marc, your response to the notion that unguided bombs can be dropped in a precise way? And is Israel using these weapons because they don't have enough precision-guided bombs in their arsenal?

Marc Garlasco:

Well, I certainly agree that unguided weapons can be used in an accurate way in certain circumstances.

But we're talking here about 10,000 to 15,000 unguided bombs being dropped in one of the most densely populated parts of the Earth. And this is incredibly dangerous. Now, looking at the weapons transfers that are put publicly out by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, we can see that over 35,000 guided weapons have been provided to Israel in recent years.

And that doesn't include the weapons that were provided just this year. And that right now is classified. But let's take again a look at U.S. practice. When I was in the Pentagon and conducting targeting there for the Iraq War, for example, in 2003, we were dropping munitions in Baghdad and throughout different cities in Iraq.

And at no time did I ever have a weaponeer suggest to me that we should use an unguided munition. And let's take a look at a very similar conflict, right? Let's look at Raqqa in Syria, where the U.S. was involved with a lot of aerial munitions.

There's a great story. There's a quote there from a pilot talking about how you have all of these buildings around a densely populated area, the enemy commingled with civilians, and the pilot asks, how am I supposed to fly the plane and drop a bomb down in alleyway? And the answer that the report comes up with is precision-guided munitions.

Geoff Bennett:

General, when President Biden described Israel's bombing campaign as indiscriminate, as he did this past week, I'd imagine you would take issue with that.

Lt. Gen. David Deptula:

Yes, actually I would. And it was an extraordinarily unfortunate and indiscriminate use of the term indiscriminate attacks.

And I think definitions are important here. In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force.

Geoff Bennett:

That is retired Lieutenant General David Deptula and Marc Garlasco.

We thank you both for your insights.

Marc Garlasco:

Thank you for having me.

Lt. Gen. David Deptula:

You bet, Geoff. Thank you.

Lets put this not taking care to not targetting civilians to bed once and for all.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Which only adds to the cycle of violence, which is what you start by objecting to and then reason bollocks to that let's continue, lengthen and further the violence. In essence you don't even agree with yourself

It's quite clear what he is posting, hypothecating through a different lens.
It makes complete sense for many.

It's what Israel did after the October atrocities. Thepunished the women and children of Palestine.
They knew and know they will not get all thehostages back with this policy, they knew and know they will not destroy Hamas.
They have created a million and a half dispossesed seperate homless people with nothing absolutely nothing.
Their cities razed to the ground their chance of a state now in tatters. Israel have radicalised the youth now and support for Hamas has massively increased in this demographic.
Bibi has assuaged the right wingers with rivers of Palestinian blood and destroyed their cities and economy.
They will become unwanted and unable to work in Israel. The USA has dropped the shark on this and China and Russia are pissing themselves laughing.
Bibi with the support of USA planes and bombs has created a couple of generations of martyrs.
Stupid cnuts

I get what he was saying, he wants to kill people to perpetuate a cycle of violence. It's been popular for many generations now, even if it's rarely proved useful.

[Hugo]

They will become unwanted and unable to work in Israel. The USA has dropped the shark on this and China and Russia are pissing themselves laughing.

Yeah, I think China has improved its hand as a result of this conflict.

The west can't really use the Muslims in Xinjiang as a stick ro beat them with when it stood by and enabled this blood bath of Muslims in Palestine. At least not in good faith.

Also, the "rules based international order" that the US has been harping on about over the last few years has been exposed as a nonsensical talking point.

[Calculon]

When Western countries criticize China on the Xinjiang issue at the UN which countries do you think wrote and signed a letter defending China’s treatment of the Uighur people, yeah Muslim countries. Even Turkey who is normally hyper sensitive about the treatment of Turkic people stayed silent. Not that Western countries really care that much about the Uighurs, for the USA the major concerns with China would be stuff such as IP theft, aggression against Taiwan and fentanyl exports

Don’t think this war changed anything as far as China is concerned. They want good relationships with both sides, cheap oil, and to keep that oil flowing. They still have very little influence on the war and in the region in general, and have major economic problems. The latter which is why they’ve done something of a 180 and now are looking for a better relationship with the USA.

[Calculon]

According to reports from CNN and The Washington Post, the U.S. intelligence community believes that up to 45 percent of the bombs Israel has dropped in Gaza were unguided, a tactic that Israel’s military has defended. Geoff Bennett discusses those weapons with retired Air Force Lt. Gen. David Deptula and Marc Garlasco, former chief of high value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Read the Full Transcript
Notice: Transcripts are machine and human generated and lightly edited for accuracy. They may contain errors.

Geoff Bennett:

Earlier this week, both CNN and The Washington Post reported that the U.S. intelligence this community believes that 40 to 45 percent of the bombs that Israel has dropped in Gaza were unguided so-called dumb bombs, as opposed to precision munitions, which are much more accurate.

Israel says it has struck over 22,000 terror targets in Gaza since the Hamas attacks on October 7. An Israeli military spokesman defended the use of unguided bombs, telling the "NewsHour" in a statement that — quote — "The IDF strikes military targets of the Hamas terrorist organization based on high-quality intelligence, while using high-quality munitions that are operated by skilled pilots and advanced systems. The type of munitions used in each strike is determined according to the characteristics of the target, the operational need, and the effort to mitigate harm to civilians."

Two perspectives now on the Israeli use of unguided bombs in Gaza.

Retired Lieutenant General David Deptula had a 36-year career in the Air Force and played major roles in planning American bombing campaigns in numerous wars, including Iraq in 1991 and Afghanistan in 2001. And Marc Garlasco was the chief of high-value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency from 1997 to 2003. He led teams that plan attacks, while limiting civilian deaths. He then worked for Human Rights Watch, where he investigated attacks against civilians.

With a welcome to you both, Marc, I will start with you.

What's your reaction to reports that 40 to 45 percent of the bombs that Israel is dropping and Gaza have been unguided?

Marc Garlasco, PAX Protection of Civilians: Well, honestly, I'm really shocked.

There's three reasons that you want to use precision-guided munitions. You want to destroy your target with minimal civilian harm, while upholding the laws of war. And there's nothing that's going to do a better job of doing that than a precision-guided munition, especially compared to an unguided bomb.

Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet. That's highly problematic. And let's just look at U.S. practice. In '91, 8 percent of all bombs dropped on Iraq were precision. In 99, there were 33 percent of the bombs dropped on Serbia were precision.

Then, in '02 and in '03, we had 65 percent of all bombs were precision-guided for Afghanistan and Iraq. And by Libya in 2011, it was 100 percent. But, really, it's not just the use of unguarded munitions that's leading to so many civilian deaths in Gaza. It's the choices that Israel's Israel's making of not applying civilian harm mitigation, of not using smaller weapons with less blast and fragmentation, like the GBU-39 that they could be using.

And this is why we're seeing upwards of 20,000 dead Palestinians right now.

Geoff Bennett:

General Deptula, I want to get your reaction to what Marc Garlasco just had to say.

And why is it OK for Israel to use unguided bombs, when the U.S. doesn't use them anymore?

Lt. Gen. David Deptula (Ret.), U.S. Air Force: Well, Geoff, what I tell you is, the use of a weapon is highly dependent upon the effects that need to be accomplished.

The collateral damage concerns regarding a particular target, and the accuracy of the weapon system in its entirety, not just the bomb itself. A dumb bomb delivered by a smart aircraft can still be accurate.

So, there are legitimate reasons to use low-cost dumb bombs. An example is hitting a weapons storage location in an area where intelligence has determined there are no collateral damage or civilian casualty concerns.

In other cases, there are fleeting targets that don't allow for the process of obtaining coordinates for GPS-guided weapons or obstacles that prevent a laser-guided delivery. So the pilot with a precise delivery system can quickly get to the target and deliver accurately before the opportunity evaporates.

The bottom line is, I have seen the exquisite care the Israeli Defense Force takes to avoid civilian casualties. They have extraordinarily stringent rules for avoiding collateral damage. And I'm told by a very good source that Israel only uses dumb bombs after they clear an area.

Geoff Bennett:

Marc, your response to the notion that unguided bombs can be dropped in a precise way? And is Israel using these weapons because they don't have enough precision-guided bombs in their arsenal?

Marc Garlasco:

Well, I certainly agree that unguided weapons can be used in an accurate way in certain circumstances.

But we're talking here about 10,000 to 15,000 unguided bombs being dropped in one of the most densely populated parts of the Earth. And this is incredibly dangerous. Now, looking at the weapons transfers that are put publicly out by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, we can see that over 35,000 guided weapons have been provided to Israel in recent years.

And that doesn't include the weapons that were provided just this year. And that right now is classified. But let's take again a look at U.S. practice. When I was in the Pentagon and conducting targeting there for the Iraq War, for example, in 2003, we were dropping munitions in Baghdad and throughout different cities in Iraq.

And at no time did I ever have a weaponeer suggest to me that we should use an unguided munition. And let's take a look at a very similar conflict, right? Let's look at Raqqa in Syria, where the U.S. was involved with a lot of aerial munitions.

There's a great story. There's a quote there from a pilot talking about how you have all of these buildings around a densely populated area, the enemy commingled with civilians, and the pilot asks, how am I supposed to fly the plane and drop a bomb down in alleyway? And the answer that the report comes up with is precision-guided munitions.

Geoff Bennett:

General, when President Biden described Israel's bombing campaign as indiscriminate, as he did this past week, I'd imagine you would take issue with that.

Lt. Gen. David Deptula:

Yes, actually I would. And it was an extraordinarily unfortunate and indiscriminate use of the term indiscriminate attacks.

And I think definitions are important here. In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force.

Geoff Bennett:

That is retired Lieutenant General David Deptula and Marc Garlasco.

We thank you both for your insights.

Marc Garlasco:

Thank you for having me.

Lt. Gen. David Deptula:

You bet, Geoff. Thank you.

Lets put this not taking care to not targetting civilians to bed once and for all.

some interesting points from the human rights activist Marc Garlasco

In 2003, Garlasco was responsible for dropping two, laser-guided, 500-kilogram bombs on a house in the Tuwaisi, neighborhood of Basra, Iraq, that he believed to contain Saddam Hussein's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, also known as Chemical Ali, the man responsible for launching poison gas attacks on Kurds in Iraq beginning in 1988.[3] Watching the attack via satellite form a room in the Pentagon, Garlasco threw his arms in the air and shouted: "I just blew up Chemical Ali!" However, Chemical Ali was not in the house; 17 other people were killed instead.[3] Garlasco left his Pentagon job in 2003 two weeks after the failed attack[5] to take a position as senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch.[7]

Garlasco explained the calculus of civilian deaths in high-value targeting to the television news program 60 Minutes this way, "Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If you're gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, that's not a problem. But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld." Garlasco told the interviewer that prior to the invasion of Iraq, he personally recommended 50 high-value targets for air strikes, but, according to Garlasco, none of the targets on his list was actually killed. Rather, "a couple of hundred civilians at least" were killed in strikes he recommended.[7] Garlasco defended the efforts made by the American military to minimize civilian casualties, "I don't think people really appreciate the gymnastics that the U.S. military goes through in order to make sure that they're not killing civilians".[7] He responded to the question "If so much care is being taken why are so many civilians getting killed?" by stating "Because the Taliban are violating international law, and because the U.S. just doesn't have enough troops on the ground. You have the Taliban shielding in people's homes. And you have this small number of troops on the ground. And sometimes the only thing they can do is drop bombs."[7]

but this is a bit unfair from the Israeli press and Bibi

On September 14, 2009, Garlasco was suspended with pay after a controversy arose when it was publicized that he collects Nazi memorabilia
On September 9, 2009 The Jerusalem Post quoted blogger Omri Ceren saying that Garlasco is "obsessed with the color and pageantry of Nazism, has published a detailed 430-page book on Nazi war paraphernalia, and participates in forums for Nazi souvenir collectors".[25] Other newspapers such as The Guardian and Haaretz covered the controversy in the following days.[18][24]

The Guardian reported on what it described as "mounting internet attacks on Garlasco". Pro-Israeli bloggers had questioned the appropriateness of Garlasco's hobby and discovered one blogpost in which Garlasco wrote, "The leather SS jacket makes my blood go cold it is so COOL!"[24]

Israeli Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu's policy director commented that Human Rights Watch's employment of "a man who trades and collects Nazi memorabilia" as its senior military expert is a "new low".[25]


HRW response
Though Garlasco initially responded to the allegations under the pen name Flak88...

lol, didn't help himself with that name but SS uniforms are pretty COOL...

[C69]

So just came across something called the Hannibal protocol.
It seems that Israeli may have used it to prevent civilians falling into the arms of HAMAS terrorists.
An Israeli general has admitted that hundreds may have been killed by helicopter fire at the festival on October the 7th and that about a 5th of IDF deaths have been caused by friendly fire.
The reports are that they also destroyed Israeli homes.
There is a suggestion that the number of deaths caused by HAMAS should be downgraded by a few hundred.
Wtaf?

[Uncle fester]

So just came across something called the Hannibal protocol.
It seems that Israeli may have used it to prevent civilians falling into the arms of HAMAS terrorists.
An Israeli general has admitted that hundreds may have been killed by helicopter fire at the festival on October the 7th and that about a 5th of IDF deaths have been caused by friendly fire.
The reports are that they also destroyed Israeli homes.
There is a suggestion that the number of deaths caused by HAMAS should be downgraded by a few hundred.
Wtaf?

Linky?
Sounds a bit "do your own research".

[Sandstorm]

So just came across something called the Hannibal protocol.
It seems that Israeli may have used it to prevent civilians falling into the arms of HAMAS terrorists.
An Israeli general has admitted that hundreds may have been killed by helicopter fire at the festival on October the 7th and that about a 5th of IDF deaths have been caused by friendly fire.
The reports are that they also destroyed Israeli homes.
There is a suggestion that the number of deaths caused by HAMAS should be downgraded by a few hundred.
Wtaf?

Linky?
Sounds a bit "do your own research".

Indeed. I saw no reports of Israeli helicopters firing at festival goers.

[C69]

So just came across something called the Hannibal protocol.
It seems that Israeli may have used it to prevent civilians falling into the arms of HAMAS terrorists.
An Israeli general has admitted that hundreds may have been killed by helicopter fire at the festival on October the 7th and that about a 5th of IDF deaths have been caused by friendly fire.
The reports are that they also destroyed Israeli homes.
There is a suggestion that the number of deaths caused by HAMAS should be downgraded by a few hundred.
Wtaf?

Linky?
Sounds a bit "do your own research".

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/isra ... licopters/
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/as ... li-colonel

and from haaretz

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12 ... 83212e0000

and
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip
Interesting slant, is it true?

[Calculon]

So just came across something called the Hannibal protocol.
It seems that Israeli may have used it to prevent civilians falling into the arms of HAMAS terrorists.
An Israeli general has admitted that hundreds may have been killed by helicopter fire at the festival on October the 7th and that about a 5th of IDF deaths have been caused by friendly fire.
The reports are that they also destroyed Israeli homes.
There is a suggestion that the number of deaths caused by HAMAS should be downgraded by a few hundred.
Wtaf?

Linky?
Sounds a bit "do your own research".

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/isra ... licopters/
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/as ... li-colonel

and from haaretz

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12 ... 83212e0000

and
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip
Interesting slant, is it true?

You need a subscription to read the Haaretz opinion pieceand I suspect you don't have one but only read the first two sources. The Ynet article says that possibly a 1/5 of causalities could be friendly fire. No idea if it's true but I guess it could be.

You talk about not believing anything the Isreali government says but think the grayzone and electronic intifada are credible sources, really

[Margin__Walker]

Ground operation friendly fire 20% figure is probably correct. The IDF tend to be fairly open about it

As for the rest, Israeli civilians will certainly have been killed in the fog of war on the morning of the 7th. Most will have been transiting the border crossings after being captured when vehicles were hit. I don't see any claim there that 100s of civilians were killed by gunships at the festival itself there, but may have missed it.

[C69]

Linky?
Sounds a bit "do your own research".

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/isra ... licopters/
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/as ... li-colonel

and from haaretz

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12 ... 83212e0000

and
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip
Interesting slant, is it true?

You need a subscription to read the Haaretz opinion pieceand I suspect you don't have one but only read the first two sources. The Ynet article says that possibly a 1/5 of causalities could be friendly fire. No idea if it's true but I guess it could be.

You talk about not believing anything the Isreali government says but think the grayzone and electronic intifada are credible sources, really

I posted from a number of sources for balance.
I managed to read the whole Haaretz article.
Balance is good

Btw I treat any thing posted by the IDF or Israeli Government the say as I do from Hamas. Healthy scepticism.

Looks like the Israeli PM is itching for a humanitarian pause.


You seem like a very distrusting person that is quite indoctrinated.
If I wanted to I could post the article.I now choose not to post it.
Change my mind.

[C69]

Human rights abuse under the spotlight again

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... %20persons.

SUMMARY

From January to October, 2023 had already seen the highest levels of violence from Israeli Security Forces (ISF) and Israeli settlers against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, since United Nations records began in 2005. This was against a backdrop of ever-growing settler population and increasing risks of annexation of parts of the occupied West Bank and of forcible transfer Palestinians out of their homes, especially in Area C.

The human rights situation in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, has nevertheless further deteriorated rapidly since the 7th of October, when Al Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, and other Palestinian armed groups, as well as armed and unarmed Palestinian civilians, attacked civilians and civilian objects as well as military objectives in southern Israel. Since 7 October and as of 20 November, ISF and Israeli settlers have killed 209 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem. This followed, notably, an increase in the use of military tactics and weapons in law enforcement contexts, the use of unnecessary or disproportionate – and therefore unlawful - force to suppress Palestinian protests and to enforce broad movement restrictions imposed on discriminatory grounds. Mass arbitrary detentions and consequential unlawful detentions, and reported torture and other ill-treatment of Palestinians by IF raised concerns of collective punishment and deepened the crisis. The number of attacks by settlers exponentially increased, leading to further displacement of Palestinian communities, including of Palestinians out of Area C of the West Bank.

ISF have claimed that their actions in the West Bank are preemptive, and thus not responding to an actual deterioration in the security situation in the West Bank. Further, the scale of violations and the rhetoric of retaliation by Israeli officials, are exacerbating tensions and creating conditions to ignite an already volatile situation. Palestinians live in constant terror of the discriminatory use of State force and settler violence against them and, while the situation is already dire, all indications are that it may further deteriorate unless urgent measures are taken by Israel to comply with international humanitarian law and international human rights law and ensure the rights of protected persons.

For decades, as recorded in reports prepared by OHCHR, ISF have used unnecessary and disproportionate force with impunity in the occupied West Bank, while it facilitated the transfer of its own citizens into unlawful settlements. At the same time, Israel has failed to protect Palestinians from settler violence, and affected Palestinians have been gradually forced out of their homes. However, the coercive environment has escalated in the last months, making an already oppressive situation worse for Palestinians, and risking a further escalation. In many parts of the occupied West Bank, shops are shut, streets are deserted, and communities cut off, closing down businesses and starving parts of the region of economic activity.

Findings in this report are based on human rights monitoring undertaken by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), in accordance with its standard methodology on human rights monitoring, which involves the gathering and corroboration of information from multiple independent sources in order to establish the facts and analyze violations.

Incidents that are included are emblematic of patterns of wider violations of the human rights of protected persons.

[Calculon]

Not easy reading this, NYT article on how Hamas systematically targeted women and girls for rape and torture

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/worl ... lence.html

[C69]

Not easy reading this, NYT article on how Hamas systematically targeted women and girls for rape and torture

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/worl ... lence.html

Disgusting stuff from the 1 page I could read with no paywall