The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[SomersetJock]

[quote=weegie01 post_id=340755 time=<a href="tel:1708001612">1708001612</a> user_id=125]
Word is that not all the clubs could afford it. Boroughmuir apparently are one. Clubs like Ayr, Watsons, Heriots (at least) are spitting because they had the funding (e.g. Watsonians had a six figure sponsorship with DHL) and were loving it. Another factor apparently is Dobson going. Rumour has it that Dodson wanted to keep it going but others were not willing.

It is a shambles. Players are now dropping down a level from Super 6 knocking others down etc. If the SRU do not come up with a replacement then I think we are seeing the start of Scottish rugby's terminal decline. Whatever the issues in Wales, they have a full semi pro (and in some cases effectively pro) league beneath the regions that keeps the basic standard decent. One of my sons has played for both a Welsh and Scottish Premiership team and is quite clear the Scottish are not near the Welsh standard. Super Six addressed that.

And they've got a new domestic comp starting: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68279041
[/quote]

The effects of the new league down here seems to have most scratching their heads as to what the difference is, some annoyed because they aren’t allowed to join and others not wanting to join !

Has Dodson moved down here by any chance ?

[weegie01]

I am guessing TOL jumped an embargo as it is back up with more detail.

That no one seems to know what comes next, or even when the competition actually ends is just absurd.

I just despair, I really do. Super Six seemed to be gaining traction and developing players and coaches. If it was deemed not to be working or there were issues then something needed to be done. But to cancel it without having a way forward to deliver players and coaches to the pro team is amateur in the extreme.

[weegie01]

On a different note, I watched a The Good, The bad and The Rugby episode with Gary Armstrong and Craig Chalmers. Maybe it was just me, but they seemed to be suggesting the current team were not mentally tough enough.

[robmatic]

I am guessing TOL jumped an embargo as it is back up with more detail.

That no one seems to know what comes next, or even when the competition actually ends is just absurd.

I just despair, I really do. Super Six seemed to be gaining traction and developing players and coaches. If it was deemed not to be working or there were issues then something needed to be done. But to cancel it without having a way forward to deliver players and coaches to the pro team is amateur in the extreme.

Is this basically an anti-Dodson thing? Classic coup behaviour - get rid if him and then get rid of things he introduced, regardless of whether it is a good idea.

[weegie01]

I am guessing TOL jumped an embargo as it is back up with more detail.

That no one seems to know what comes next, or even when the competition actually ends is just absurd.

I just despair, I really do. Super Six seemed to be gaining traction and developing players and coaches. If it was deemed not to be working or there were issues then something needed to be done. But to cancel it without having a way forward to deliver players and coaches to the pro team is amateur in the extreme.

Is this basically an anti-Dodson thing? Classic coup behaviour - get rid if him and then get rid of things he introduced, regardless of whether it is a good idea.

No idea and no one I asked had heard anything to that effect.

But the comments on TOL are pathetic. Amongst reasonable posts (e.g. I did not like, still don't but it was delivering) are many cheering precisely because it was a Dodson idea and now it is gone. Plus the usual bring back the clubs faction. So parochial and narrow minded it sums up all that is wrong with Scottish rugby imho.

[Jock42]

I am guessing TOL jumped an embargo as it is back up with more detail.

That no one seems to know what comes next, or even when the competition actually ends is just absurd.

I just despair, I really do. Super Six seemed to be gaining traction and developing players and coaches. If it was deemed not to be working or there were issues then something needed to be done. But to cancel it without having a way forward to deliver players and coaches to the pro team is amateur in the extreme.

Is this basically an anti-Dodson thing? Classic coup behaviour - get rid if him and then get rid of things he introduced, regardless of whether it is a good idea.

No idea and no one I asked had heard anything to that effect.

But the comments on TOL are pathetic. Amongst reasonable posts (e.g. I did not like, still don't but it was delivering) are many cheering precisely because it was a Dodson idea and now it is gone. Plus the usual bring back the clubs faction. So parochial and narrow minded it sums up all that is wrong with Scottish rugby imho.

Hahahaha what? Fucking mutants!

[Yr Alban]

So it is true. Fuck me!

Super Series to be disbanded

https://www.theoffsideline.com/super-se ... disbanded/

This is unbelievable. The U20s have started to look more competitive this year, which suggests it was working. WTF are they playing at?

[robmatic]

I am guessing TOL jumped an embargo as it is back up with more detail.

That no one seems to know what comes next, or even when the competition actually ends is just absurd.

I just despair, I really do. Super Six seemed to be gaining traction and developing players and coaches. If it was deemed not to be working or there were issues then something needed to be done. But to cancel it without having a way forward to deliver players and coaches to the pro team is amateur in the extreme.

Eurgh, I just read the TOL comments. So parochial. Higher level Scottish rugby is screwed if that's representative of the rugby community in Scotland - it's amateur club rugby or nothing.

[KingBlairhorn]

I'm coming late to this discussion that seems to have already run its course, but suffice to say I am another that is dismayed by the decision to cancel Super6. Not only did it seem to be helping with the U20s, it was also bridging the gap to professionalism for older players (in both directions). To replace it after such a short period of time would be headstrong to fullhardy, to disband it with no replacement would be foolish in the extreme. The parochial nature of Scottish rugby, each working for their own wee blazer and tie, never fails to disappoint and anger me.

I said when Dodson announced he was leaving I hoped that we would not live to regret his moving on as, although he wasn't perfect he did seem to do much right. If this is just the first in a series of backwards steps it could be the start of a terminal decline that is difficult to recover from.

[westport]

Don't worry it is all sorted


https://scottishrugby.org/scottish-rugb ... 3VxO8XQpqE

[weegie01]

Am I being cynical or does that look very much like going back to what we had before with a few tweaks such as more pro A games?

That some of the things in there have to actually said (e.g. better succession planning, more focus on home grown players) is sad in itself.

[robmatic]

Don't worry it is all sorted


https://scottishrugby.org/scottish-rugb ... 3VxO8XQpqE

Eh, almost all of these things they could have/should have been doing alongside Super 6.

Seems like the priority is to ensure the old Premiership is the pinnacle of domestic rugby again.

[I like neeps]

Don't worry it is all sorted


https://scottishrugby.org/scottish-rugb ... 3VxO8XQpqE

Eh, almost all of these things they could have/should have been doing alongside Super 6.

Seems like the priority is to ensure the old Premiership is the pinnacle of domestic rugby again.

Super6 was binned (sadly) as it wasn't financially viable so not sure it could have been a side by side deal.

A teams if they play against English/Irish clubs is a good way to go.

[KingBlairhorn]

Loads of detail in this article as to what they are trying to achieve:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68314850

"Excitingly, it brings a very aligned structure which should see capital invested focused on those with the highest potential and free movement of players. It is tailored to suit Scotland and perhaps closest to the successful models of Ireland and New Zealand."

The new plan will ensure a "minimum numbers of Scottish qualified players in the Edinburgh and Glasgow squads" and "a more formal approach to succession planning around key playing positions" to provide a better "pathway" towards the national team.

Scotland head coach Gregor Townsend was one of those involved in the review overseen by a steering group that considering recommendations from independent consultant Oakwell.

"It's clear that we must do better at creating more opportunities for our best young players to gain experiences and develop through playing rugby at a higher level," he said.

"The game is often the best teacher and we need to provide more games at pro-level and above for those in our U20 and academy environments. Increasing the number of pro-team A games and reinstating Scotland A fixtures are two important pathways for achieving this."

I don't have enough knowledge to know if they are just saying these things or if they are accurate but I hold out hope that this new structure does what they say.

[Slick]

Going to have a big knock on effect for other clubs as these players start being integrated into club squads.

[Biffer]

Loads of detail in this article as to what they are trying to achieve:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68314850

"Excitingly, it brings a very aligned structure which should see capital invested focused on those with the highest potential and free movement of players. It is tailored to suit Scotland and perhaps closest to the successful models of Ireland and New Zealand."

The new plan will ensure a "minimum numbers of Scottish qualified players in the Edinburgh and Glasgow squads" and "a more formal approach to succession planning around key playing positions" to provide a better "pathway" towards the national team.

Scotland head coach Gregor Townsend was one of those involved in the review overseen by a steering group that considering recommendations from independent consultant Oakwell.

"It's clear that we must do better at creating more opportunities for our best young players to gain experiences and develop through playing rugby at a higher level," he said.

"The game is often the best teacher and we need to provide more games at pro-level and above for those in our U20 and academy environments. Increasing the number of pro-team A games and reinstating Scotland A fixtures are two important pathways for achieving this."

I don't have enough knowledge to know if they are just saying these things or if they are accurate but I hold out hope that this new structure does what they say.

I mean, this is the key bit that everyone agrees on I think

It's clear that we must do better at creating more opportunities for our best young players to gain experiences and develop through playing rugby at a higher level," he said.

"The game is often the best teacher and we need to provide more games at pro-level and above for those in our U20 and academy environments. Increasing the number of pro-team A games and reinstating Scotland A fixtures are two important pathways for achieving this

But I'm not seeing how the change is going to do this. It may be that there's more detail to come, but just how many games can Edinburgh A play against Glasgow A? Is there any desire at all for Championship clubs, Welsh semi pro league or Irish province A teams to play against us? Because that's not been the case previously. If you want to plan to resurrect the districts, I don't see how you do it with a mish mash of amateur club players and academy players. Is the academy system significantly expanding in numbers by going up to U23? Would that give enough players for district sides that would then play against the pro A teams without mixing the players together too much?

Devil is in the detail, and we've not seen any. A 19 year old prop needs to be playing 20 games a season imo, before U20 internationals. I don't see where that's coming from at the moment.


The last line in the article is key - "Meanwhile, Scottish Rugby is continuing its recruitment process for a new performance director, who will deliver the detail and implementation of the new pathway programme.". I think that means they don't have the detail and are looking for someone to come up with it.

[topofthemoon]

Loads of detail in this article as to what they are trying to achieve:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68314850

"Excitingly, it brings a very aligned structure which should see capital invested focused on those with the highest potential and free movement of players. It is tailored to suit Scotland and perhaps closest to the successful models of Ireland and New Zealand."

The new plan will ensure a "minimum numbers of Scottish qualified players in the Edinburgh and Glasgow squads" and "a more formal approach to succession planning around key playing positions" to provide a better "pathway" towards the national team.

Scotland head coach Gregor Townsend was one of those involved in the review overseen by a steering group that considering recommendations from independent consultant Oakwell.

"It's clear that we must do better at creating more opportunities for our best young players to gain experiences and develop through playing rugby at a higher level," he said.

"The game is often the best teacher and we need to provide more games at pro-level and above for those in our U20 and academy environments. Increasing the number of pro-team A games and reinstating Scotland A fixtures are two important pathways for achieving this."

I don't have enough knowledge to know if they are just saying these things or if they are accurate but I hold out hope that this new structure does what they say.

I mean, this is the key bit that everyone agrees on I think

It's clear that we must do better at creating more opportunities for our best young players to gain experiences and develop through playing rugby at a higher level," he said.

"The game is often the best teacher and we need to provide more games at pro-level and above for those in our U20 and academy environments. Increasing the number of pro-team A games and reinstating Scotland A fixtures are two important pathways for achieving this

But I'm not seeing how the change is going to do this. It may be that there's more detail to come, but just how many games can Edinburgh A play against Glasgow A? Is there any desire at all for Championship clubs, Welsh semi pro league or Irish province A teams to play against us? Because that's not been the case previously. If you want to plan to resurrect the districts, I don't see how you do it with a mish mash of amateur club players and academy players. Is the academy system significantly expanding in numbers by going up to U23? Would that give enough players for district sides that would then play against the pro A teams without mixing the players together too much?

Devil is in the detail, and we've not seen any. A 19 year old prop needs to be playing 20 games a season imo, before U20 internationals. I don't see where that's coming from at the moment.


The last line in the article is key - "Meanwhile, Scottish Rugby is continuing its recruitment process for a new performance director, who will deliver the detail and implementation of the new pathway programme.". I think that means they don't have the detail and are looking for someone to come up with it.

Welsh and Irish A sides have had cross border competitions in the past but the timing didn't work for Edinburgh and Glasgow in terms of numbers of players who would be available. If there's an expansion of players aged 21, 22, 23 aligned with or signed to the pro teams then that becomes more manageable.

Italy are supposed to be keen to get A fixtures up and running for Benetton and Zebre.

Premiership A league has gone because some clubs didn't have the resources but some of the bigger clubs must still have senior academy and fringe young pro players they would be looking to expose to A team level fixtures that are now not available.

[Big D]

I think parochialism needs to be beaten out the game and talent brought together. I honestly think part of the problem is there are too many clubs at the bottom end of the top level diluting the player pool. Particularly in the Caley region.

Gordonians and Aberdeen Grammar milling around in national 2? Nope have one collaborative Aberdeen team that attracts players and lifts the quality.

Fife/Tayside - Dundee HS, Kirkcaldy, Howe and Dunfermline all in consecutive leagues? Have one or two teams with the best players that might challenge promotion from national 2 and stop some player drain to Edinburgh.

When you see people of Twitter advocating for "stronger clubs" generally what they mean is "I want my club at the top".

[I like neeps]

[quote="Big D" post_id=340922 time=1708094305 user_id=371]
I think parochialism needs to be beaten out the game and talent brought together. I honestly think part of the problem is there are too many clubs at the bottom end of the top level diluting the player pool. Particularly in the Caley region.

Gordonians and Aberdeen Grammar milling around in national 2? Nope have one collaborative Aberdeen team that attracts players and lifts the quality.

Fife/Tayside - Dundee HS, Kirkcaldy, Howe and Dunfermline all in consecutive leagues? Have one or two teams with the best players that might challenge promotion from national 2 and stop some player drain to Edinburgh.

When you see people of Twitter advocating for "stronger clubs" generally what they mean is "I want my club at the top".
[/quote]

Dundee, Cupar, Kirkcaldy, Dunfermline is a big area. You'd have a what 45 minute drive from Cupar to Dundee at least for home games? Even Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline is 30 minutes. I'd say that's prohibitive rather than increasing quality.

Coming from Dundee (Monifieth) I wouldn't have played rugby if my local club was 30 minutes away.

The Borders and Edinburgh as well as pockets such as Ayr and Stirling are strong rugby areas because you have local clubs your friends plays for.

[Jock42]

Did you play for Panmure?

[Big D]

I think parochialism needs to be beaten out the game and talent brought together. I honestly think part of the problem is there are too many clubs at the bottom end of the top level diluting the player pool. Particularly in the Caley region.

Gordonians and Aberdeen Grammar milling around in national 2? Nope have one collaborative Aberdeen team that attracts players and lifts the quality.

Fife/Tayside - Dundee HS, Kirkcaldy, Howe and Dunfermline all in consecutive leagues? Have one or two teams with the best players that might challenge promotion from national 2 and stop some player drain to Edinburgh.

When you see people of Twitter advocating for "stronger clubs" generally what they mean is "I want my club at the top".

Dundee, Cupar, Kirkcaldy, Dunfermline is a big area. You'd have a what 45 minute drive from Cupar to Dundee at least for home games? Even Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline is 30 minutes. I'd say that's prohibitive rather than increasing quality.

Coming from Dundee (Monifieth) I wouldn't have played rugby if my local club was 30 minutes away.

The Borders and Edinburgh as well as pockets such as Ayr and Stirling are strong rugby areas because you have local clubs your friends plays for.

Players regularly swap around the Fife clubs at youth and senior level. Cupar to Dundee is about 20min drive.

I'm not talking about those players starting off, or those playing exclusively for fun/socials but the partially developed over 5min at lunch was funnelling the best players what want to step up having the opportunity to do so somewhat locally without having to travel Edinburgh.

Caledonia is too big an area for there not to be potential talents that haven't been playing pathway with little access to the top levels of club rugby out with the central/Stirling catchment.

I can't see how non pathway talents are going to break through from the other Caledonia areas playing Nat1/2 without leaving and going to Edinburgh clubs. Same as 10-15 years ago.

It wasn't a well thought out idea, but club parochialism is an issue in Scottish Rugby.

[Jock42]

Painful 1st half.

[Tichtheid]

Painful 1st half.

We've got nothing behind the scrum, it's dire. Whether that is coaching or the players I don't know, but there is no creativity there at all.

[Begbie]

Absolutely pish first half.

[Jock42]

Painful 1st half.

We've got nothing behind the scrum, it's dire. Whether that is coaching or the players I don't know, but there is no creativity there at all.

I think it's the players. Looking disinterested imo.

[KingBlairhorn]

6 points down, man down, penalty in front of the posts…kick to the corner?

Bloody lucky they got the pen try.

[KingBlairhorn]

Somewhat unbelievably, a good chance for a bp win here for Edinburgh

[robmatic]

Painful 1st half.

We've got nothing behind the scrum, it's dire. Whether that is coaching or the players I don't know, but there is no creativity there at all.

The pack have been good in the tight but they've been making Zebre look great at the breakdown - lots of slow ball.

[Jock42]

Atrocious but a win is a win.

[KingBlairhorn]

Well that’s two hours of my life I’d quite like back

[Tichtheid]

Atrocious but a win is a win.

A shite win, but...

Embra were easily the better side, the fact it was so close was down to the lack of cutting edge we have behind the scrum.

[Tichtheid]

I know I'm in the minority, but I miss Kinghorn at 10 for Edinburgh

[Biffer]

Fuck my old boots that was fucking shocking

That was a very strong team. They looked like they turned up expecting to have a run out and win.

Nobody who was released from the Scotland squad deserves a place in the 23 except WP,and Javan was really good when he came on.

[Biffer]

Having slept on it, the main thing was we were a different team when Price went off and Vellacot came on. A win is a win and I’d rather win ugly than lose beautifully.

[weegie01]

I know I'm in the minority, but I miss Kinghorn at 10 for Edinburgh

Healey seems to be a black hole at 10. The defence acan pretty much ignore him and concentrate on the rest of the backline. You can see Ireland were not interested.

[topofthemoon]

Glasgow Depth Chart for Dragons with 21 players unavailable:

[KingBlairhorn]

The Glasgow game has already had more excitement than the entire Edinburgh game

[Slick]

Bit behind but on the Glasgow game but a lot of good stuff in that half as well as a lot of mistakes - could have been 40 up easily.

Really liking Jordan at 12. Love watching McKay play when he is in full flow, he just unsettles and unbalances defenders with his lines, footwork and delay on his passes, class act.

Must admit I haven’t been fully convinced by the Stafford hype train but has oozed class tonight so far

[Tichtheid]

Bit behind but on the Glasgow game but a lot of good stuff in that half as well as a lot of mistakes - could have been 40 up easily.

Really liking Jordan at 12. Love watching McKay play when he is in full flow, he just unsettles and unbalances defenders with his lines, footwork and delay on his passes, class act.

Must admit I haven’t been fully convinced by the Stafford hype train but has oozed class tonight so far

I think hype train is a bit unfair, he's 25 and has come up earning his jersey step by step since the U20s. He's behind some serious players, the best centres Scotland have had in the pro era are playing for Glasgow and then there is the likes of Redpath and Hutch for Scotland - in most other eras he's a regular Scotland cap player by now

[Slick]

Bit behind but on the Glasgow game but a lot of good stuff in that half as well as a lot of mistakes - could have been 40 up easily.

Really liking Jordan at 12. Love watching McKay play when he is in full flow, he just unsettles and unbalances defenders with his lines, footwork and delay on his passes, class act.

Must admit I haven’t been fully convinced by the Stafford hype train but has oozed class tonight so far

I think hype train is a bit unfair, he's 25 and has come up earning his jersey step by step since the U20s. He's behind some serious players, the best centres Scotland have had in the pro era are playing for Glasgow and then there is the likes of Redpath and Hutch for Scotland - in most other eras he's a regular Scotland cap player by now

Oh, I didn’t mean anything derogatory by that at all. Just meant he has been getting a lot of attention but I wasn’t totally convinced. He was superb tonight