The Official English Rugby Thread

[SaintK]

Interesting article by Courtney Lawes in yesterday's Times
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9a ... 3c61e7e2

[SaintK]

Interesting start to Ealing Tigers Premiership Cup semi final
Tigers scrum being wrecked by Ealing in first 2 scrums

[SaintK]

Took about 25 minutes and an Ealing yellow card for Tigers to settle down. 12-6 Tigers at half time.

[Stranger]

Only listening on the radio, the commentators are suggesting that Ealing may not be used to the speed Tigers get to the breakdown, and that is what is keeping Tigers in it - does that sound correct?

[SaintK]

Tigers getting mullered in the scrum again ands with a prop in the bin
Ealing 14 12 up
Twelve trees missing kicks

[SaintK]

Going to be close
Tigers 22 21 5 minutes to go

[SaintK]

Uncomfortable 29 21 win for Tigers

[Hal Jordan]

Mitchell is out of the England squad with injury, Harry Randall comes in.

[sockwithaticket]

That's not good.

[Oxbow]

That's not good.

You'd like to think it'd be an opportunity for Ben Spencer, but Borthwick will probably just keep Care on for 79 minutes.

[SaintK]

Mitchell is out of the England squad with injury, Harry Randall comes in.

Bugger!!!
Spencer please

[Paddington Bear]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/baef ... 52a546c919

Interesting article, if you discount Walrus being Walrus and the Scottish correspondent missing the point of the article to re-litigate their loss last week. Reducing scrum time has to be the key

[inactionman]

Bath have signed Regan Grace on a short term contract, which I gather means just a few weeks/months and a couple of friendly games while he rehabilitates from a long-term Achilles injury. I gather he's been in and around the club since late last year working on rehab, but under a less formal arrangement.

I've not seen this arrangement before, but it does give Bath an opportunity to give a highly promising (in the Union sense, he's an established League player) free agent a once-over, and gives the player ongoing access to decent rehab and support. And a few spas at Farleigh House.

It's been tough old time for Grace, re-injured his achilles after he signed for Racing and never got on the pitch for them - so I think he's yet to make his Union debut. At his best he's an electric runner but Achilles injuries are shockers at the best of times and he's had a few issues and recurrences in rehab. I presume the contract means he's getting closer to a full runout which is encouraging.

eta: I should add Jacques Du Plessis and Neil Le Roux have also agreed similar terms, although they're not free agents in the same way.

[JM2K6]

Andre Esterhuizen reported as having signed for the Sharks. The financial situation and the cap changes are definitely making their presence felt.

Andre has got to be to there in terms of impact for overseas players in the premiership and I'm amazed we've kept hold of him for as long as we did. Hell of a player. We can't easily replace him so it will likely be a case of adjusting our approach to suit Anyanwu / Hyde / Bradley playing 12 instead. All three are pretty physical but obviously very few players can match Esterhuizen there.

[ASMO]

Andre Esterhuizen reported as having signed for the Sharks. The financial situation and the cap changes are definitely making their presence felt.

Andre has got to be to there in terms of impact for overseas players in the premiership and I'm amazed we've kept hold of him for as long as we did. Hell of a player. We can't easily replace him so it will likely be a case of adjusting our approach to suit Anyanwu / Hyde / Bradley playing 12 instead. All three are pretty physical but obviously very few players can match Esterhuizen there.

Where is Northmore at the moment, he has looked really good playing in the centres.

[JM2K6]

Andre Esterhuizen reported as having signed for the Sharks. The financial situation and the cap changes are definitely making their presence felt.

Andre has got to be to there in terms of impact for overseas players in the premiership and I'm amazed we've kept hold of him for as long as we did. Hell of a player. We can't easily replace him so it will likely be a case of adjusting our approach to suit Anyanwu / Hyde / Bradley playing 12 instead. All three are pretty physical but obviously very few players can match Esterhuizen there.

Where is Northmore at the moment, he has looked really good playing in the centres.

Injured, and he's a far better 13 than 12.

[sockwithaticket]

Big loss for Quins. Not many (any?) other players out there quite like him at the moment. He's a much more well rounded player than often given credit for and that combined with his sheer size and power is a rare combo.

[Paddington Bear]

Is it just internet rumours, or is there any truth to Newcastle’s owners being out in Saudi drumming up investment?

[geordie_6]

Is it just internet rumours, or is there any truth to Newcastle’s owners being out in Saudi drumming up investment?

Tbf they wouldn't need to go that far, just hop on the Metro to St James station.

[JM2K6]

Is it just internet rumours, or is there any truth to Newcastle’s owners being out in Saudi drumming up investment?

Well, it was news broken a few weeks back that the Saudis were looking to buy into Tigers/Saints/Falcons/?? (Glaws?)

[sockwithaticket]

Portuguese officials seem to be somewhat belatedly coming out and stating that the upcoming match with England A won't involve a senior Portgual side. I know there were indications a while ago it would probably have to be an under-strength team, not unlike some that various tier 1 nations have put out as senior sides on summer tours from time to time, but there was no doubt it would be Portugal until the last couple of weeks.

Not sure if it's the Portuguese Union, RFU or both who are to blame, but it feels a bit amateur hour. Possibly jeopardises offering tier 2 sides future games against A teams.

[SaintK]

So, sounds like the end of an era.
Despite last minute negotiations with Saints, Courtney Lawes is due in Brive over the weekend to sign a contract with them. Evidently £35k a month plus bonuses, sunsidised accomodation and childrens school fees!!!!
I've watched him since he was a gangly, beanpole 18 year old and is certainly one of my favourite English players of the current era.
Good luck and hope it all goes well.

[Oxbow]

So, sounds like the end of an era.
Despite last minute negotiations with Saints, Courtney Lawes is due in Brive over the weekend to sign a contract with them. Evidently £35k a month plus bonuses, sunsidised accomodation and childrens school fees!!!!
I've watched him since he was a gangly, beanpole 18 year old and is certainly one of my favourite English players of the current era.
Good luck and hope it all goes well.

Incredible servant to Saints, England and the Lions. I'd say he was up there as Saints' best ever, and one of England's finest too. I don't begrudge him the move one bit after all these years, though I'll miss him. Rugby-wise it seems a bit of an odd choice, though there are clearly other benefits.

[SaintK]

Ewels, Heyes, Randall, Ojomoh and Muir added to the A team squad for the match against Portugal
FFS what is the point in adding Ewels with 30 caps to what is esentially a development match squad?

[Jim Lahey]

So, sounds like the end of an era.
Despite last minute negotiations with Saints, Courtney Lawes is due in Brive over the weekend to sign a contract with them. Evidently £35k a month plus bonuses, sunsidised accomodation and childrens school fees!!!!
I've watched him since he was a gangly, beanpole 18 year old and is certainly one of my favourite English players of the current era.
Good luck and hope it all goes well.

Geez, some package that, would be impossible to turn down.

Definitely the one English player that I always dreaded seeing down on the teamsheet over the years. Rarely, if ever, has a bad game.

[inactionman]

Ewels, Heyes, Randall, Ojomoh and Muir added to the A team squad for the match against Portugal
FFS what is the point in adding Ewels with 30 caps to what is esentially a development match squad?

It's an odd one. He was out for a very long time with a bad injury, but you'd think you could judge recovery on club rugby. He's a known quantity.

Maybe they want to marble the squad with some Test experience? Who knows. I've given up guessing, even after the Eddie Jones lottery era.

Will Muir has been excellent for Bath, keen to see how he goes, even if playing a second-string Portugal.

[sockwithaticket]

We still barely have an attack to speak of and the defence has clearly yet to bed in. Another 2 win 6N, it might be enough to finish 4th.

[JM2K6]

Mentioned on the match thread, but Felix Jones's comment about it taking SA 17 matches or whatever to bed in their defence being used to shield England from criticism is mad to me. We aren't South Africa. They don't have piss weak 13s and have real breakdown threats in midfield plus a back three of genuine pace and power and good decision making.

I'm so, so tired of England being a horror show at tournament after tournament.

[el capitan]

Every game Borthwick remains is just accepting mediocrity.

I don't care if the RFU can't afford to sack him (next on the block should be whoever decided to give him a 5 year deal straight up!). Bankruptcy is preferable to this gormless prat remaining. He coaches, and the team performs, like he played at test level - insipid, error strewn, and frankly not up to it.

Said before the issues go further, there needs to be root and branch change in English rugby, but that doesn't escape that this guy is a disaster.

[sockwithaticket]

Mentioned on the match thread, but Felix Jones's comment about it taking SA 17 matches or whatever to bed in their defence being used to shield England from criticism is mad to me. We aren't South Africa. They don't have piss weak 13s and have real breakdown threats in midfield plus a back three of genuine pace and power and good decision making.

I'm so, so tired of England being a horror show at tournament after tournament.

Having two fairly quick players in the back three (Furbank and Freeman) this game is the closest we've come to aping the selections that made South Africa's blitz possible.

Loving the idea that we've got to put up with another 10+ games of England being defensively all over the place until the defence can be criticised. Not.

[Paddington Bear]

Our attack looked so tame, horrible to watch. Ford should have fired off two or three more dgs as there was no chance of us really threatening.

So many basic errors yet again.

The defensive system has some promise, I think we saw elements of that.
Scotland didn’t offer much, lived off scraps and still were more than good enough to overturn a 10 point lead and win comfortably. Sick and tired of watching us go nowhere.

[Paddington Bear]

Oh - and we’ve clearly got a crop of exciting young players. IMHO we may as well roll the dice and start them all in the last two games.

When Wales/Scotland/Ireland have had limited players reach 70 caps+, they’ve managed to make themselves more than the sum of their parts and have been at least canny operators. Our 30+ Brigade tend to offer nothing but liabilities

[inactionman]

Our attack looked so tame, horrible to watch. Ford should have fired off two or three more dgs as there was no chance of us really threatening.

So many basic errors yet again.

The defensive system has some promise, I think we saw elements of that.
Scotland didn’t offer much, lived off scraps and still were more than good enough to overturn a 10 point lead and win comfortably. Sick and tired of watching us go nowhere.

It's getting daft now. The players don't make these mistakes for their clubs, but it's just endemic in the national team.

[Paddington Bear]

Our attack looked so tame, horrible to watch. Ford should have fired off two or three more dgs as there was no chance of us really threatening.

So many basic errors yet again.

The defensive system has some promise, I think we saw elements of that.
Scotland didn’t offer much, lived off scraps and still were more than good enough to overturn a 10 point lead and win comfortably. Sick and tired of watching us go nowhere.

It's getting daft now. The players don't make these mistakes for their clubs, but it's just endemic in the national team.

And with the exception of maybe a couple of years under Eddie, it’s been the status quo.

Borthwick and Wigglesworth deserve stick, but they’re not the ones who dropped the ball 25 times on a dry day, or passed directly into touch, or headed a ball for an interception or dropped a restart under no pressure.
Care’s had 99 caps and played like it was his first, did Ford forget how to pass? None of them do this for their clubs, and most of what I have just described wasn’t under pressure either.

A team that is almost always less than the sum of it’s parts.

[dpedin]

Our attack looked so tame, horrible to watch. Ford should have fired off two or three more dgs as there was no chance of us really threatening.

So many basic errors yet again.

The defensive system has some promise, I think we saw elements of that.
Scotland didn’t offer much, lived off scraps and still were more than good enough to overturn a 10 point lead and win comfortably. Sick and tired of watching us go nowhere.

It's getting daft now. The players don't make these mistakes for their clubs, but it's just endemic in the national team.

And with the exception of maybe a couple of years under Eddie, it’s been the status quo.

Borthwick and Wigglesworth deserve stick, but they’re not the ones who dropped the ball 25 times on a dry day, or passed directly into touch, or headed a ball for an interception or dropped a restart under no pressure.
Care’s had 99 caps and played like it was his first, did Ford forget how to pass? None of them do this for their clubs, and most of what I have just described wasn’t under pressure either.

A team that is almost always less than the sum of it’s parts.

England look like a team driven by fear of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time so better to play safe and go to routine one/two phase box kick routine.

At some point Borthwick et al are going to have to go all in and bring in the younger guys and change the team around for good. England has more than enough good young players around to build a team around for the future. Playing the likes of Care, Ford, Slade, Daly, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Spencer et al in the same team isn't going to take them forward. OK I recognize the need to have one or two experienced heads in the team but too many of these guys have had their chance. For example Fey-waboso did more in his 20mins than Daly did in 80 and whilst he will make mistakes if played from the start is worth a shot.

However the real problem is Borthwick and his coaching team, it is almost like they are trying to develop a team for the 2010's and haven't recognised that the rugby world has moved on and teams are playing a different style of rugby. I am not sure Borthwick has the capability or capacity to move this team forward.

[JM2K6]

Will Stuart is 27 and probably quite a bit better than the next best younger player. Care is a million years old but he is only starting due to injuries and other issues with availability. Ford was excellent at the world cup and despite a rough season is probably still England's best all round 10, Farrell is retired and Marcus Smith is injured. Fin Smith is a talented kid with little experience who did not press his case off the bench. George and Dan arguably represent the two best hookers in the country.

You're confusing not rating these guys with facts again

[dpedin]

Will Stuart is 27 and probably quite a bit better than the next best younger player. Care is a million years old but he is only starting due to injuries and other issues with availability. Ford was excellent at the world cup and despite a rough season is probably still England's best all round 10, Farrell is retired and Marcus Smith is injured. Fin Smith is a talented kid with little experience who did not press his case off the bench. George and Dan arguably represent the two best hookers in the country.

You're confusing not rating these guys with facts again

No - not really! As I said pick one or two experienced key players to support the youngsters and then pick the guys who need the experience who will take you forward the next 5+ years. England decided to just fill the team with guys who closer to the end of their careers than at the beginning of it and who haven't exactly set the heather on fire in the last couple of years. If you are starting Care then why not pair him with Smith and hope Care can guide him through and get experience in a big test match? Ditto why start George when Dan shows far more energy, enthusiasm and impact at hooker? Why start Daly at wing when you have en exciting talent like Fey-Waboso sitting on the bench? At some point Borthwick will need to throw these young guys in and get the experience at test level they need.

I suppose the key fact, as that is what you want to focus on, is that England lost to a Scotland team who never really clicked on the day but had enough to win fairly comfortably. Apart from the first 10-15 mins England were pretty toothless in attack and the backs in particular were close to awful. This would suggest to me that for Borthwick to keep doing the same thing by picking these guys isn't working? Borthwick needs to be brave, say thanks very much to the older guys and throw in a few more of the talented youngsters and let them get experience and play rugby!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

England don't seem to have picked up any momentum coming into this 6N, if for no other reason than to add some enthusiasm in what now looks another lost cause one might as well drop Cole, Daly and Care. Still not sold Chessum and Itoje is a great pairing, they're both fine, and Itoje is probably playing pretty well actually, but as a pairing it just feels a little passive, and they still getting pinged and getting a daft yellow, they're not even doing passive well.

Roots, very early to be calling for him to be dropped even if other players look more dynamic, and it's worth keeping in mind with his actual chances thus far in test rugby Pearson hasn't impressed more than Root.

Still think Freeman moving inside in at 13 makes sense. And putting some wingers with real pace in place makes sense.

There was a little more ambition shown Vs Scotland, only a little but it was more. Question is whether they try to develop further, or go back to the eye watering kick the ball away WC strategy?

I've certainly seen worse from England than this weekend, but it does add to decades long wait for them to start to turn a corner

[Margin__Walker]

Judging Pearson on the one cap he got during a massive training bloc pre RWC is probably a touch unfair.

I actually do think he's not reached the level he was playing at last season domestically, so am not too outraged about him missing out. But I think that Wales game told you about as much about how he's going to perform internationally as this Portugal A game.

[Margin__Walker]

Selections have been a shit show at times, but George almost certainly starts because his set piece is considerably better.