Kicking off in Israel

[Tilly Orifice]

At this point if you asked them what's worse:

1) Hamas
2) Israel
3) Bowel cancer

....you'd still have 25% unsure.

It's a toughie, to be fair.

[epwc]

Have browsed Planet Rugby and then NPR for years, never been interested in posting, especially PR as there were just so many nutters on there.

I am a muslim, I know lots of muslims, I work very closely with a mosque in Essex so I get to meet lots of muslims. I'm also married to a white lady and work in a field where I interact mainly with non muslims.

I haven't personally come across anyone that defends Hamas or their actions (even at the marches I've attended), I've come across plenty of anger at Israel and a lack of understanding that Jews are not the same as Israelis and not all Israelis support their government. It's sad that literally nothing can be said against the state of Israel without it being labelled as anti Semitic as it basically closes down debate, debate and dialogue are clearly the answer here but in the current environment there is no opportunity.

I grew up in the heart of the Jewish East End in the rag trade, so pretty much exposed to Jewishness all my life, I've had many Jewish friends and have always appreciated the deep cultural and political impact that the Jewish East End (in particular) has had elsewhere in the world. I've known people that survived Auschwitz, that fled the pogroms in Russia, and of course the post war exiles from the Middle East (Iraqi Jews in particular). I think I've got a fairly balanced view of Jews and their journey and I know how hard they've had to work to protect themselves (my primary school was 100 yards from where the Battle of Cable Street took place), but it's hard to accept the proposition that Israel is a benign state is doing it's best to make peace with it's Palestinian cousins. There are many Jewish scholars that disagree vociferously with Israeli policy in relation to Palestinians and the Settler movement, there is much that is wrong with how Israel has dealt with the Palestinian issue and there's no sign that is changing.

In the end what will this war achieve? I really have no idea if it will end up in another land grab but whether it does or not all I can see is that an even more marginalised and desperate people will be much easier to radicalise for Hamas or whatever new terrorist movement springs up in their place.

I don't know whether I'll post again but I just thought it might help some of you to understand a (single admittedly) muslim view on this.

[epwc]

Just to add I've never met a UK muslim that supports Sharia in the UK, I've had people that have spoken to me about it and my response has always been "you'd better fuck off to somewhere that practices it then"

[Tichtheid]

Have browsed Planet Rugby and then NPR for years, never been interested in posting, especially PR as there were just so many nutters on there.

I am a muslim, I know lots of muslims, I work very closely with a mosque in Essex so I get to meet lots of muslims. I'm also married to a white lady and work in a field where I interact mainly with non muslims.

I haven't personally come across anyone that defends Hamas or their actions (even at the marches I've attended), I've come across plenty of anger at Israel and a lack of understanding that Jews are not the same as Israelis and not all Israelis support their government. It's sad that literally nothing can be said against the state of Israel without it being labelled as anti Semitic as it basically closes down debate, debate and dialogue are clearly the answer here but in the current environment there is no opportunity.

I grew up in the heart of the Jewish East End in the rag trade, so pretty much exposed to Jewishness all my life, I've had many Jewish friends and have always appreciated the deep cultural and political impact that the Jewish East End (in particular) has had elsewhere in the world. I've known people that survived Auschwitz, that fled the pogroms in Russia, and of course the post war exiles from the Middle East (Iraqi Jews in particular). I think I've got a fairly balanced view of Jews and their journey and I know how hard they've had to work to protect themselves (my primary school was 100 yards from where the Battle of Cable Street took place), but it's hard to accept the proposition that Israel is a benign state is doing it's best to make peace with it's Palestinian cousins. There are many Jewish scholars that disagree vociferously with Israeli policy in relation to Palestinians and the Settler movement, there is much that is wrong with how Israel has dealt with the Palestinian issue and there's no sign that is changing.

In the end what will this war achieve? I really have no idea if it will end up in another land grab but whether it does or not all I can see is that an even more marginalised and desperate people will be much easier to radicalise for Hamas or whatever new terrorist movement springs up in their place.

I don't know whether I'll post again but I just thought it might help some of you to understand a (single admittedly) muslim view on this.

Thanks for your post.

I hope you do feel like adding to the discussion

[Guy Smiley]

Hi epwc,

great 1st post! I hope you feel you can hang about and contribute. I think you've articulated fairly clearly what a lot of us feel and by no means should you feel you don't belong.

Cheers.

[SaintK]

Have browsed Planet Rugby and then NPR for years, never been interested in posting, especially PR as there were just so many nutters on there.

I am a muslim, I know lots of muslims, I work very closely with a mosque in Essex so I get to meet lots of muslims. I'm also married to a white lady and work in a field where I interact mainly with non muslims.

I haven't personally come across anyone that defends Hamas or their actions (even at the marches I've attended), I've come across plenty of anger at Israel and a lack of understanding that Jews are not the same as Israelis and not all Israelis support their government. It's sad that literally nothing can be said against the state of Israel without it being labelled as anti Semitic as it basically closes down debate, debate and dialogue are clearly the answer here but in the current environment there is no opportunity.

I grew up in the heart of the Jewish East End in the rag trade, so pretty much exposed to Jewishness all my life, I've had many Jewish friends and have always appreciated the deep cultural and political impact that the Jewish East End (in particular) has had elsewhere in the world. I've known people that survived Auschwitz, that fled the pogroms in Russia, and of course the post war exiles from the Middle East (Iraqi Jews in particular). I think I've got a fairly balanced view of Jews and their journey and I know how hard they've had to work to protect themselves (my primary school was 100 yards from where the Battle of Cable Street took place), but it's hard to accept the proposition that Israel is a benign state is doing it's best to make peace with it's Palestinian cousins. There are many Jewish scholars that disagree vociferously with Israeli policy in relation to Palestinians and the Settler movement, there is much that is wrong with how Israel has dealt with the Palestinian issue and there's no sign that is changing.

In the end what will this war achieve? I really have no idea if it will end up in another land grab but whether it does or not all I can see is that an even more marginalised and desperate people will be much easier to radicalise for Hamas or whatever new terrorist movement springs up in their place.

I don't know whether I'll post again but I just thought it might help some of you to understand a (single admittedly) muslim view on this.

Thanks for your post.

I hope you do feel like adding to the discussion

+1

[Tilly Orifice]

Have browsed Planet Rugby and then NPR for years, never been interested in posting, especially PR as there were just so many nutters on there.

I am a muslim, I know lots of muslims, I work very closely with a mosque in Essex so I get to meet lots of muslims. I'm also married to a white lady and work in a field where I interact mainly with non muslims.

I haven't personally come across anyone that defends Hamas or their actions (even at the marches I've attended), I've come across plenty of anger at Israel and a lack of understanding that Jews are not the same as Israelis and not all Israelis support their government. It's sad that literally nothing can be said against the state of Israel without it being labelled as anti Semitic as it basically closes down debate, debate and dialogue are clearly the answer here but in the current environment there is no opportunity.

I grew up in the heart of the Jewish East End in the rag trade, so pretty much exposed to Jewishness all my life, I've had many Jewish friends and have always appreciated the deep cultural and political impact that the Jewish East End (in particular) has had elsewhere in the world. I've known people that survived Auschwitz, that fled the pogroms in Russia, and of course the post war exiles from the Middle East (Iraqi Jews in particular). I think I've got a fairly balanced view of Jews and their journey and I know how hard they've had to work to protect themselves (my primary school was 100 yards from where the Battle of Cable Street took place), but it's hard to accept the proposition that Israel is a benign state is doing it's best to make peace with it's Palestinian cousins. There are many Jewish scholars that disagree vociferously with Israeli policy in relation to Palestinians and the Settler movement, there is much that is wrong with how Israel has dealt with the Palestinian issue and there's no sign that is changing.

In the end what will this war achieve? I really have no idea if it will end up in another land grab but whether it does or not all I can see is that an even more marginalised and desperate people will be much easier to radicalise for Hamas or whatever new terrorist movement springs up in their place.

I don't know whether I'll post again but I just thought it might help some of you to understand a (single admittedly) muslim view on this.

As one of the nutters on PR I'm feeling slightly offended now.
Good post otherwise.

[sefton]

Is there anybody left on PR who isn’t a nutter?

Have they crowned Bimbo as king yet?

[epwc]

Have they crowned Bimbo as king yet?

He fucking well should be

[Tilly Orifice]

Is there anybody left on PR who isn’t a nutter?

Have they crowned Bimbo as king yet?

AHEM

[Kiwias]

epwc

You certainly know how to make a dramatic entrance. That is probably the finest first post ever and you definitely have an audience here, interested in your comments, views, and experiences.

[dpedin]

epwc

You certainly know how to make a dramatic entrance. That is probably the finest first post ever and you definitely have an audience here, interested in your comments, views, and experiences.

This!

[C69]

Great first post NooB cnut

[epwc]

Great first post NooB cnut

Was waiting for that

[SaintK]

[epwc]

Nice response from Miriam Margolyes in the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2024/a ... -ceasefire

At every one of the marches I've been to I'd say at least 5% were visibly Jewish (carrying banners of one Jewish org or another)

[Sandstorm]

I hope he’s a real newbie. Strange he turns up the same afternoon that DAC returns……

[Ymx]

Just to add I've never met a UK muslim that supports Sharia in the UK, I've had people that have spoken to me about it and my response has always been "you'd better fuck off to somewhere that practices it then"

Do you think it might be an up north thing? Where it’s solid unintegrated communities.

Or are you saying you don’t believe the survey results based on your anecdotal experience?

[epwc]

I hope he’s a real newbie. Strange he turns up the same afternoon that DAC returns……

Nope I’m definitely real. Definitely not DAC

[Sandstorm]

I hope he’s a real newbie. Strange he turns up the same afternoon that DAC returns……

Nope I’m definitely real. Definitely not DAC

Then welcome sir.

[epwc]

Do you think it might be an up north thing? Where it’s solid unintegrated communities.

I have no idea, I can only speak from my experience 59 years of being a Muslim.

In general I believe the insularity engendered by ghettoisation of any social group is very damaging, maybe those kind of people formed a large proportion of respondents. I couldn’t tell you

Ignorance on all sides is the enemy

[Ymx]

This is the survey of UK Muslims

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-cont ... -Final.pdf

Sample size suggests 3% margin of error.

[epwc]

I’d also say that I view myself as very lucky in that I grew up in the east end as it transformed from a Jewish area to an Asian one, so I was exposed to Jewish culture very early on and being in the shmutter game ensured that I could swear in Yiddish by my teens.

I still miss Kossofs, Grodzinskis, Mark the delicatessen etc.

I used to work in petticoat lane as a kid, selling Levi’s to skins that had probably been paki bashing the night before; buying Levi’s and Harrington from the pakis and DMs from the Yids. Good times

[epwc]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dict-close

[Ymx]

I’d also say that I view myself as very lucky in that I grew up in the east end as it transformed from a Jewish area to an Asian one, so I was exposed to Jewish culture very early on and being in the shmutter game ensured that I could swear in Yiddish by my teens.

I still miss Kossofs, Grodzinskis, Mark the delicatessen etc.

I used to work in petticoat lane as a kid, selling Levi’s to skins that had probably been paki bashing the night before; buying Levi’s and Harrington from the pakis and DMs from the Yids. Good times

When you see stuff like this, the feel that it’s quite spread.



And then when you see the survey, it seems to cement that gut feeling that it is spread. And worse, by the actual Imams.

Having said that, I know it’s not 100%, and I’d suggest you yourself are likely not in the 25% who openly side with Hamas.

But 25% is a lot of people

[Ymx]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dict-close

But you’re juggling with a few percent there.

Even a few percent less in this case is still an alarmingly high percentage

[epwc]

So I covertly support Hamas?

[Ymx]

So I covertly support Hamas?

You’ve misunderstood me if you think I said that

[Slick]

I’d also say that I view myself as very lucky in that I grew up in the east end as it transformed from a Jewish area to an Asian one, so I was exposed to Jewish culture very early on and being in the shmutter game ensured that I could swear in Yiddish by my teens.

I still miss Kossofs, Grodzinskis, Mark the delicatessen etc.

I used to work in petticoat lane as a kid, selling Levi’s to skins that had probably been paki bashing the night before; buying Levi’s and Harrington from the pakis and DMs from the Yids. Good times

Did you see the thing on C4 last night about Brick Lane and Southall? Good insight.

[Guy Smiley]

This is better than I expected, YMX actually telling a Muslim poster what it is to be Muslim.

[epwc]

So I covertly support Hamas?

You’ve misunderstood me if you think I said that

You’re saying I’m in the 75% that don’t openly support Hamas, to me that implies that there’s a good possibility that I covertly support them.

I come across ignorant fuckwits all the time there are plenty of people that if surveyed would say that Covid was likely a hoax. I’ve been told by my father in law that the migrants coming across the channel should be blasted out of the water, something I’m sure resonates with plenty of others.

What does that prove? Do the Hamas supporters have any more agency to attack Israel than the migrant haters have to repel the invaders?

If any Muslim fuckwit thinks that a mainstream political party is going to go against the decades old UK position of supporting Israel regardless then they are complete imbeciles.

The amazing thing is that we spend so much time and energy on shit like this when climate change is already killing and displacing people all over the world. That’s the realest issue there will be in our lifetimes.

[epwc]

Did you see the thing on C4 last night about Brick Lane and Southall? Good insight.

Not yet, got it recorded. My first full time job was opposite what is now Altab Ali park. I love the East End, lived or worked there my whole life and now my kids live there

[Ymx]

So I covertly support Hamas?

You’ve misunderstood me if you think I said that

You’re saying I’m in the 75% that don’t openly support Hamas, to me that implies that there’s a good possibility that I covertly support them.

I come across ignorant fuckwits all the time there are plenty of people that if surveyed would say that Covid was likely a hoax. I’ve been told by my father in law that the migrants coming across the channel should be blasted out of the water, something I’m sure resonates with plenty of others.

What does that prove? Do the Hamas supporters have any more agency to attack Israel than the migrant haters have to repel the invaders?

If any Muslim fuckwit thinks that a mainstream political party is going to go against the decades old UK position of supporting Israel regardless then they are complete imbeciles.

The amazing thing is that we spend so much time and energy on shit like this when climate change is already killing and displacing people all over the world. That’s the realest issue there will be in our lifetimes.

No, I was not implying you were covertly. I just said from what I gather you are not in the Hamas supporter camp.

But there is 25% who are, and that’s a hell of a lot of people.

On the channel arrivals I’d suggest those who oppose them. Eg me. Feel they should be returned to France or elsewhere, not that they should be murdered. I’m pretty sure your father in law is not actually wanting their death. I hope !!

Climate change. Wut ? I’m starting to wonder if this is a parody account ?

[epwc]

Why would it be a parody account if I think that climate change is a huge issue?

Are you a denier?

[epwc]

On the channel arrivals I’d suggest those who oppose them. Eg me. Feel they should be returned to France or elsewhere, not that they should be murdered. I’m pretty sure your father in law is not actually wanting their death. I hope !!

How come you’re pretty sure he doesn’t want their deaths but you’re pretty sure the Muslims are all out to destroy everything that is pure and just in the world?

[Ymx]

Why would it be a parody account if I think that climate change is a huge issue?

Are you a denier?

It felt like you were going for a bingo of causes.

I’m not a denier, no.

[Ymx]

On the channel arrivals I’d suggest those who oppose them. Eg me. Feel they should be returned to France or elsewhere, not that they should be murdered. I’m pretty sure your father in law is not actually wanting their death. I hope !!

How come you’re pretty sure he doesn’t want their deaths but you’re pretty sure the Muslims are all out to destroy everything that is pure and just in the world?

Well I hope he doesn’t. Does he have track record of supporting barbaric murders of immigrants?

Hamas do have a track record.

[epwc]

These are words that my actual real life father in law has said to me, we’re not talking about intent were talking about sentiment

[Ymx]

You must have fun family Christmas dinners

[epwc]

Most of the time he forgets that I’m not white or that I’m Muslim, like a lot of my white family. I guess after a while you just blend in.

I tend to fight more for other woke issues with them rather than brown/muslim ones nowadays