UK Post Office Scandal

[Slick]

Man, the Post Office lied to the courts - they knew that their defence was false.

Secret papers reveal Post Office knew its court defence was false

Imagine the hurt and anger coming up now if you were one of the 1000 postmasters affected. Public flogging and jail is too good for those buggers, and their lawyers

You need to nail senior management and some lawyers in this to change behaviour. To often the scapegoats are lower down the food chain.

Yup, there has to be jail time for this shite.

[SaintK]

Man, the Post Office lied to the courts - they knew that their defence was false.

Secret papers reveal Post Office knew its court defence was false

Imagine the hurt and anger coming up now if you were one of the 1000 postmasters affected. Public flogging and jail is too good for those buggers, and their lawyers

You need to nail senior management and some lawyers in this to change behaviour. To often the scapegoats are lower down the food chain.

Yup, there has to be jail time for this shite.

With Parker and Vennels first in line. The lying scumbags.

[SaintK]

Vennels should be locked up as soonest

Former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells was briefed on allegations that a “covert operations team” at Fujitsu’s Bracknell headquarters could remotely alter sub-postmasters’ accounts — two *years* before she gave evidence to MPs, according to a Channel 4 exclusive. Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury (and former committee chair) Darren Jones called the revelations the “darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.” The Post Office denied remote access was possible for years afterward.

https://www.channel4.com/news/exclus ... pearence

[dpedin]

Vennels should be locked up as soonest

Former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells was briefed on allegations that a “covert operations team” at Fujitsu’s Bracknell headquarters could remotely alter sub-postmasters’ accounts — two *years* before she gave evidence to MPs, according to a Channel 4 exclusive. Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury (and former committee chair) Darren Jones called the revelations the “darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.” The Post Office denied remote access was possible for years afterward.

https://www.channel4.com/news/exclus ... pearence

The thing I dont get is where has all the extra cash gone? It is clear the external audits didn't pick this up but that's no great surprise! There is a strong suggestion here that someone was able to syphon off money from PO accounts overnight using the external IT links and possibly deposit elsewhere. If not then surely there would have been surpluses shown in stock levels, cash in hand, etc in the post office branches themselves or in other PO accounts? If PO staff were having to inject their own cash into the accounts then I cant see how the books could possibly have balanced? Surely the PO Director of Finance and his team should/would be able to identify where the surplus cash was and where it went? At best it went to the PO bottom line and drove the bonuses that the Directors etc knowingly took fraudulently or worse still there was a coordinated crime to siphon off cash using the external IT link. Either way this is clear evidence of coordinated corruption across the PO and Fujitsu to me beyond what we already know. Whilst rightly the focus has been on the poor sods who had their lives ruined by the PO and Fujitsu there is surely a major fraud here that needs to be investigated properly?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Vennels should be locked up as soonest

Former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells was briefed on allegations that a “covert operations team” at Fujitsu’s Bracknell headquarters could remotely alter sub-postmasters’ accounts — two *years* before she gave evidence to MPs, according to a Channel 4 exclusive. Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury (and former committee chair) Darren Jones called the revelations the “darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.” The Post Office denied remote access was possible for years afterward.

https://www.channel4.com/news/exclus ... pearence

The thing I dont get is where has all the extra cash gone? It is clear the external audits didn't pick this up but that's no great surprise! There is a strong suggestion here that someone was able to syphon off money from PO accounts overnight using the external IT links and possibly deposit elsewhere. If not then surely there would have been surpluses shown in stock levels, cash in hand, etc in the post office branches themselves or in other PO accounts? If PO staff were having to inject their own cash into the accounts then I cant see how the books could possibly have balanced? Surely the PO Director of Finance and his team should/would be able to identify where the surplus cash was and where it went? At best it went to the PO bottom line and drove the bonuses that the Directors etc knowingly took fraudulently or worse still there was a coordinated crime to siphon off cash using the external IT link. Either way this is clear evidence of coordinated corruption across the PO and Fujitsu to me beyond what we already know. Whilst rightly the focus has been on the poor sods who had their lives ruined by the PO and Fujitsu there is surely a major fraud here that needs to be investigated properly?

I guess most of it went in to the Post Office accounts. I doubt the PO considered it 'surplus'

While it's been pointed out that people at Fujitsu could have nicked it, I haven't yet seen any evidence that actually happened, although given the lack of proper immutable audit trails, finding that might be a tall order.

[Punter15]

So where is Vennells? Has she spent the last few months hiding behind the sofa or is she out and about defending herself? She’s a pariah wherever she goes.

[Enzedder]

So where is Vennells? Has she spent the last few months hiding behind the sofa or is she out and about defending herself? She’s a pariah wherever she goes.

She'll be having a lovely retirement spending the millions she received in bonuses.

[dpedin]

Vennels should be locked up as soonest

https://www.channel4.com/news/exclus ... pearence

The thing I dont get is where has all the extra cash gone? It is clear the external audits didn't pick this up but that's no great surprise! There is a strong suggestion here that someone was able to syphon off money from PO accounts overnight using the external IT links and possibly deposit elsewhere. If not then surely there would have been surpluses shown in stock levels, cash in hand, etc in the post office branches themselves or in other PO accounts? If PO staff were having to inject their own cash into the accounts then I cant see how the books could possibly have balanced? Surely the PO Director of Finance and his team should/would be able to identify where the surplus cash was and where it went? At best it went to the PO bottom line and drove the bonuses that the Directors etc knowingly took fraudulently or worse still there was a coordinated crime to siphon off cash using the external IT link. Either way this is clear evidence of coordinated corruption across the PO and Fujitsu to me beyond what we already know. Whilst rightly the focus has been on the poor sods who had their lives ruined by the PO and Fujitsu there is surely a major fraud here that needs to be investigated properly?

I guess most of it went in to the Post Office accounts. I doubt the PO considered it 'surplus'

While it's been pointed out that people at Fujitsu could have nicked it, I haven't yet seen any evidence that actually happened, although given the lack of proper immutable audit trails, finding that might be a tall order.

I worked a long time with a good mate who was a trained and experienced senior auditor with experience of both the public and private sector. He would never start from premise it was just a cock up when money was involved and would start from the working assumption that if money was going missing or unaccounted for on such a regular and systematic basis then someone was deliberately benefiting from it. He was nearly always right! The sums involved here are just too large to be written off by the PO Finance folk and cant really be explained just by IT system failures. If the accounts were being adjusted by Fujistu staff over night then the question is why and why always resulting in a negative impact on the PO branch account? I suspect that the real reason they kept this hidden and didn't go for full disclosure is that they knew they were being scammed and didn't want to have to admit they had been subjected to large scale fraud and the loss of business confidence etc that would result from it. The Gov were probably implicated in cover up due to political embarrassment of both the PO and a major Gov IT partner being exposed so negatively.

My mates three most common auditing lies were:

- Good morning, I am the auditor and I am here to help you!
- Good morning and we are pleased to see you!
- The cheque is in the post!

[Dinsdale Piranha]

The thing I dont get is where has all the extra cash gone? It is clear the external audits didn't pick this up but that's no great surprise! There is a strong suggestion here that someone was able to syphon off money from PO accounts overnight using the external IT links and possibly deposit elsewhere. If not then surely there would have been surpluses shown in stock levels, cash in hand, etc in the post office branches themselves or in other PO accounts? If PO staff were having to inject their own cash into the accounts then I cant see how the books could possibly have balanced? Surely the PO Director of Finance and his team should/would be able to identify where the surplus cash was and where it went? At best it went to the PO bottom line and drove the bonuses that the Directors etc knowingly took fraudulently or worse still there was a coordinated crime to siphon off cash using the external IT link. Either way this is clear evidence of coordinated corruption across the PO and Fujitsu to me beyond what we already know. Whilst rightly the focus has been on the poor sods who had their lives ruined by the PO and Fujitsu there is surely a major fraud here that needs to be investigated properly?

I guess most of it went in to the Post Office accounts. I doubt the PO considered it 'surplus'

While it's been pointed out that people at Fujitsu could have nicked it, I haven't yet seen any evidence that actually happened, although given the lack of proper immutable audit trails, finding that might be a tall order.

I worked a long time with a good mate who was a trained and experienced senior auditor with experience of both the public and private sector. He would never start from premise it was just a cock up when money was involved and would start from the working assumption that if money was going missing or unaccounted for on such a regular and systematic basis then someone was deliberately benefiting from it. He was nearly always right! The sums involved here are just too large to be written off by the PO Finance folk and cant really be explained just by IT system failures. If the accounts were being adjusted by Fujistu staff over night then the question is why and why always resulting in a negative impact on the PO branch account? I suspect that the real reason they kept this hidden and didn't go for full disclosure is that they knew they were being scammed and didn't want to have to admit they had been subjected to large scale fraud and the loss of business confidence etc that would result from it. The Gov were probably implicated in cover up due to political embarrassment of both the PO and a major Gov IT partner being exposed so negatively.

My mates three most common auditing lies were:

- Good morning, I am the auditor and I am here to help you!
- Good morning and we are pleased to see you!
- The cheque is in the post!

The difference here is that no money was missing in many cases. It was just a phantom balance caused by dodgy software. The thing is, the Post Office didn't care as they just put the liability on to the SPM and demanded it be repaid so they didn't have any incentive to investigate.

There was an example of this attitude in a different context in the evidence. When a branch got robbed, the first thing the PO did was demand the SPM reimburse the stolen cash. They really didn't give a shit.

[dpedin]

I guess most of it went in to the Post Office accounts. I doubt the PO considered it 'surplus'

While it's been pointed out that people at Fujitsu could have nicked it, I haven't yet seen any evidence that actually happened, although given the lack of proper immutable audit trails, finding that might be a tall order.

I worked a long time with a good mate who was a trained and experienced senior auditor with experience of both the public and private sector. He would never start from premise it was just a cock up when money was involved and would start from the working assumption that if money was going missing or unaccounted for on such a regular and systematic basis then someone was deliberately benefiting from it. He was nearly always right! The sums involved here are just too large to be written off by the PO Finance folk and cant really be explained just by IT system failures. If the accounts were being adjusted by Fujistu staff over night then the question is why and why always resulting in a negative impact on the PO branch account? I suspect that the real reason they kept this hidden and didn't go for full disclosure is that they knew they were being scammed and didn't want to have to admit they had been subjected to large scale fraud and the loss of business confidence etc that would result from it. The Gov were probably implicated in cover up due to political embarrassment of both the PO and a major Gov IT partner being exposed so negatively.

My mates three most common auditing lies were:

- Good morning, I am the auditor and I am here to help you!
- Good morning and we are pleased to see you!
- The cheque is in the post!

The difference here is that no money was missing in many cases. It was just a phantom balance caused by dodgy software. The thing is, the Post Office didn't care as they just put the liability on to the SPM and demanded it be repaid so they didn't have any incentive to investigate.

There was an example of this attitude in a different context in the evidence. When a branch got robbed, the first thing the PO did was demand the SPM reimburse the stolen cash. They really didn't give a shit.

No but the PO staff put in lots of cash to compensate for balance deficits the system was showing so that cash has to be accounted for somehow. The dodgy balances also needs to be reconciled with stock and/or services delivered ie stamps, postage, pensions paid out, driving licenses paid, etc. So there must have been a difference that showed up when stock takes were done. and investigations carried out. Usually when fraud is expected the organization would close operations down, 'lock the doors' and do an immediate stock take of goods and services and to try and reconcile this with the monies. There is no way that the PO internal auditors could reconcile their books with 'phantom balances' and the PO folk putting additional cash in to make their branch books balance. If this was the case then each branch must have had additional stock on hand to the equivalent of the cash deficit. On this basis I strongly suspect more widespread issues are at stake here and quite possibly a significant fraud has occurred.

[C69]

I find it incredulous that no one in Government had knowlege of this.

[Sandstorm]

I find it incredulous that no one in Government had knowlege of this.

I reckon this is the kind of shit that you keep hidden from your MP.

[MungoMan]

The thing I dont get is where has all the extra cash gone? It is clear the external audits didn't pick this up but that's no great surprise! There is a strong suggestion here that someone was able to syphon off money from PO accounts overnight using the external IT links and possibly deposit elsewhere. If not then surely there would have been surpluses shown in stock levels, cash in hand, etc in the post office branches themselves or in other PO accounts? If PO staff were having to inject their own cash into the accounts then I cant see how the books could possibly have balanced? Surely the PO Director of Finance and his team should/would be able to identify where the surplus cash was and where it went? At best it went to the PO bottom line and drove the bonuses that the Directors etc knowingly took fraudulently or worse still there was a coordinated crime to siphon off cash using the external IT link. Either way this is clear evidence of coordinated corruption across the PO and Fujitsu to me beyond what we already know. Whilst rightly the focus has been on the poor sods who had their lives ruined by the PO and Fujitsu there is surely a major fraud here that needs to be investigated properly?

I guess most of it went in to the Post Office accounts. I doubt the PO considered it 'surplus'

While it's been pointed out that people at Fujitsu could have nicked it, I haven't yet seen any evidence that actually happened, although given the lack of proper immutable audit trails, finding that might be a tall order.

I worked a long time with a good mate who was a trained and experienced senior auditor with experience of both the public and private sector. He would never start from premise it was just a cock up when money was involved and would start from the working assumption that if money was going missing or unaccounted for on such a regular and systematic basis then someone was deliberately benefiting from it. He was nearly always right! The sums involved here are just too large to be written off by the PO Finance folk and cant really be explained just by IT system failures. If the accounts were being adjusted by Fujistu staff over night then the question is why and why always resulting in a negative impact on the PO branch account? I suspect that the real reason they kept this hidden and didn't go for full disclosure is that they knew they were being scammed and didn't want to have to admit they had been subjected to large scale fraud and the loss of business confidence etc that would result from it. The Gov were probably implicated in cover up due to political embarrassment of both the PO and a major Gov IT partner being exposed so negatively.

My mates three most common auditing lies were:

- Good morning, I am the auditor and I am here to help you!
- Good morning and we are pleased to see you!
- The cheque is in the post!

As the old saying goes, auditors are those who come in after the battle is over and bayonet the wounded.

[petej]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68787990

What a piece of shit. Vennells and this scumbag need to be jailed.

[epwc]

No one will be jailed for this, just like Grenfell. And yes they are all dirty scumbags that absolutely deserve it

[petej]

No one will be jailed for this, just like Grenfell. And yes they are all dirty scumbags that absolutely deserve it

I know which is depressing. A lot of the justification for these people being paid so much is the responsibility but in reality they don’t own it or take responsibility. Grenfell is very sad and very preventable. Materials is my specialism.

[Blackmac]

The Post Office MD Alan Cook has just claimed that he had no idea that they had the power to prosecute their own cases. Hundreds of sub postmasters prosecuted during his tenure. Incredible.

[Blackmac]

No one will be jailed for this, just like Grenfell. And yes they are all dirty scumbags that absolutely deserve it

This.

[dpedin]

No one will be jailed for this, just like Grenfell. And yes they are all dirty scumbags that absolutely deserve it

This.

I am not so sure, there is clear evidence that the PO bosses and senior staff have lied to HoC committees, committed perjury in courts, fiddled or didnt disclose evidence in trials, etc leading to unsafe convictions and the jailing of innocent people. It will be difficult for any court in the land to ignore this had evidence ... whether they go to jail is debatable but I am certain many will be found guilty of serious crimes.

[SaintK]

The Post Office MD Alan Cook has just claimed that he had no idea that they had the power to prosecute their own cases. Hundreds of sub postmasters prosecuted during his tenure. Incredible.

It beggars belief that the senior management didn't understand what they were doing and how they did it

[Blackmac]

The Post Office MD Alan Cook has just claimed that he had no idea that they had the power to prosecute their own cases. Hundreds of sub postmasters prosecuted during his tenure. Incredible.

It beggars belief that the senior management didn't understand what they were doing and how they did it

He was actually one of the first PO witnesses I have seen that appeared quite flustered, possibly frightened. Almost as though the penny had dropped about the disaster on his watch.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

The Post Office MD Alan Cook has just claimed that he had no idea that they had the power to prosecute their own cases. Hundreds of sub postmasters prosecuted during his tenure. Incredible.

It beggars belief that the senior management didn't understand what they were doing and how they did it

There is a long tradition of senior execs in government organisations slopey shouldering all responsibility and claiming they don't really know anything about anything in their own organisaton when under fire. Paula Vennells did the same when in front of the HoC. Dido Harding also pulled the "I don't really know how my organisation works' stunt at least twice when giving evidence to the HoC.

They are useless, they are liars or they are useless liars.

[Tichtheid]

There is another scandal unfolding


Tens of thousands of unpaid carers looking after disabled, frail or ill relatives are being forced to repay huge sums to the government and threatened with criminal prosecution after unwittingly breaching earnings rules by just a few pounds a week.

People who claim the £81.90-a-week carer’s allowance for looking after loved ones while working part-time are being forced by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to pay back money that has been erroneously overpaid to them, in some cases running to more than £20,000, or risk going to prison.

[SaintK]

There is another scandal unfolding


Tens of thousands of unpaid carers looking after disabled, frail or ill relatives are being forced to repay huge sums to the government and threatened with criminal prosecution after unwittingly breaching earnings rules by just a few pounds a week.

People who claim the £81.90-a-week carer’s allowance for looking after loved ones while working part-time are being forced by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to pay back money that has been erroneously overpaid to them, in some cases running to more than £20,000, or risk going to prison.

Read that this morning.
Add it to the:
The tainted blood payout scandal
The Windrush reparations scandal
The Grenfell Tower compensation
The Postmaster prosecution and reparations scandal
Fuck these bastards in government

[C T]

The Post Office MD Alan Cook has just claimed that he had no idea that they had the power to prosecute their own cases. Hundreds of sub postmasters prosecuted during his tenure. Incredible.

It beggars belief that the senior management didn't understand what they were doing and how they did it

He was actually one of the first PO witnesses I have seen that appeared quite flustered, possibly frightened. Almost as though the penny had dropped about the disaster on his watch.

A wee bit more about this guy.

Following his excellent run at the post office, he went on to become chairman at LV=.

Important to distinguish between LV GI (they do car, home insurance etc. now owned by Allianz). He was chairman of the now completely separate LV= that deal with more financial products like life insurance.

This guy was super keen to sell LV= to a private equity firm (I wonder why?). It was (and still is) a mutual. As an LV= life insurance holder I got no end of letters, said to be from him, telling me that agreeing the deal was the only option for the company to survive.

Members rejected the deal, he left (presumably without the large chunk of money that the equity firm would have given him) and LV= is still, funnily enough, alive.

An absolute parasite.

[Biffer]

I worked a long time with a good mate who was a trained and experienced senior auditor with experience of both the public and private sector. He would never start from premise it was just a cock up when money was involved and would start from the working assumption that if money was going missing or unaccounted for on such a regular and systematic basis then someone was deliberately benefiting from it. He was nearly always right! The sums involved here are just too large to be written off by the PO Finance folk and cant really be explained just by IT system failures. If the accounts were being adjusted by Fujistu staff over night then the question is why and why always resulting in a negative impact on the PO branch account? I suspect that the real reason they kept this hidden and didn't go for full disclosure is that they knew they were being scammed and didn't want to have to admit they had been subjected to large scale fraud and the loss of business confidence etc that would result from it. The Gov were probably implicated in cover up due to political embarrassment of both the PO and a major Gov IT partner being exposed so negatively.

My mates three most common auditing lies were:

- Good morning, I am the auditor and I am here to help you!
- Good morning and we are pleased to see you!
- The cheque is in the post!

The difference here is that no money was missing in many cases. It was just a phantom balance caused by dodgy software. The thing is, the Post Office didn't care as they just put the liability on to the SPM and demanded it be repaid so they didn't have any incentive to investigate.

There was an example of this attitude in a different context in the evidence. When a branch got robbed, the first thing the PO did was demand the SPM reimburse the stolen cash. They really didn't give a shit.

No but the PO staff put in lots of cash to compensate for balance deficits the system was showing so that cash has to be accounted for somehow. The dodgy balances also needs to be reconciled with stock and/or services delivered ie stamps, postage, pensions paid out, driving licenses paid, etc. So there must have been a difference that showed up when stock takes were done. and investigations carried out. Usually when fraud is expected the organization would close operations down, 'lock the doors' and do an immediate stock take of goods and services and to try and reconcile this with the monies. There is no way that the PO internal auditors could reconcile their books with 'phantom balances' and the PO folk putting additional cash in to make their branch books balance. If this was the case then each branch must have had additional stock on hand to the equivalent of the cash deficit. On this basis I strongly suspect more widespread issues are at stake here and quite possibly a significant fraud has occurred.

I think the mistake you're making here is thinking that because there's a difference that showed up in the software, that means there's a difference in reality.

To me, contrary to your mates approach, this is a good example of occams razor. It seems far more likely that the piece of software that tens of thousands of people have to use is faulty than tens of thousands of people all suddenly decided they would commit fraud in a short period of time. You're making the same mistake the Post Office did.

[SaintK]

Amnesia strikes again. Crozier this time.

“I genuinely can’t remember,” Crozier says.

Former chief executive of the Royal Mail Group Adam Crozier has said he did not have a “developed understanding” of the way in which Royal Mail carried out prosecutions.

“I was not aware of that, no.”

And I don’t believe I recall seeing it on the Post Office register.”

“With the benefit of hindsight? Yes.”

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Amnesia strikes again. Crozier this time.

“I genuinely can’t remember,” Crozier says.

Former chief executive of the Royal Mail Group Adam Crozier has said he did not have a “developed understanding” of the way in which Royal Mail carried out prosecutions.

“I was not aware of that, no.”

And I don’t believe I recall seeing it on the Post Office register.”

“With the benefit of hindsight? Yes.”

Another senior exec using the 'I'm a fucking dumbass' defence.

Useless, useless pricks.

[Sandstorm]

It’s a sick joke that those running the Post Office didn’t know about the prosecutions. I guarantee that the missing funds, who stole it and what to do with “the thieves” would have been discussed at many board meetings!! Lying cnuts.

[epwc]

No one will be jailed for this, just like Grenfell. And yes they are all dirty scumbags that absolutely deserve it

I know which is depressing. A lot of the justification for these people being paid so much is the responsibility but in reality they don’t own it or take responsibility. Grenfell is very sad and very preventable. Materials is my specialism.

You don't have to be a materials specialist, I couldn't sleep that night and I was flicking between channels at around 00:30 when I saw the fire, you could clearly see that there was a chimney effect going on and that the cladding was in flames.

The architect that we used on our house was a trainee on this project in the 60s, I spoke to him (not knowing that he'd worked on it) the day after, he said that the flats were designed as individual fire compartments, concrete walls, steel windows. To clad the flipping thing in plastic with UPVC windows (which generally had huge gaps around them) was beyond mental.

The stay put advice is amazingly still intact, we've just built a 4 story block (ground + 4 floors of flats) the fire alarms do not have sounders because of this, so if we have a fire in the building you stay put till....

It's a 4 story mostly masonry building, concrete staircase, I know I'd just get the fuck out, why wait?

Privatising everything is absolutely not the answer, you can wangle so much past a private Building Inspector if you try hard enough (and it's not like most of them can even be arsed to inspect).

Plenty of stupidly bad shit goes on still, and private rentals? OMG when my eldest was looking for a flat in 2nd year of uni at least 3 we looked at had serious fire risks, a couple had unsafe electrics, and plenty were badly ventilated. I think all residential landlords should be licensed and monitored (I say that as a residential landlord myself).

[robmatic]

The Post Office MD Alan Cook has just claimed that he had no idea that they had the power to prosecute their own cases. Hundreds of sub postmasters prosecuted during his tenure. Incredible.

It beggars belief that the senior management didn't understand what they were doing and how they did it

There is a long tradition of senior execs in government organisations slopey shouldering all responsibility and claiming they don't really know anything about anything in their own organisaton when under fire. Paula Vennells did the same when in front of the HoC. Dido Harding also pulled the "I don't really know how my organisation works' stunt at least twice when giving evidence to the HoC.

They are useless, they are liars or they are useless liars.

I think this is a general failing in British senior management culture, to be honest. Bluffers go far and never have to bear responsibility.