Not Heineken Cup 23/24

[JM2K6]

It used to be a European competition, but it's not anymore.

Competitions evolve all the time. Four Nations became Six Nations. Tri-Nations became The Rugby Championship.

Yeah but the question is are they adding more than they take away. I don't believe they are, and the travel is a big part of that.

Well if that's the criteria then the SPIVs should have been barred from involvement for your years now

It's not an acronym.

[assfly]

I think they are adding to it, we've seen some great games involving them. I wonder if the Bulls beat Northampton we'd be asking the same question.

The travel component is also a reason why I don't see a South African team winning it anytime soon.

There are a lot of problems with the Champions Cup, from my perspective. The format is stupid, and there are too many teams and repeat games. I would go with the suggestion made elsewhere that the number of teams are reduced and the Challenge Cup is expanded, making it more prestigious so that teams playing would take it more seriously.

And if you're going to ask about adding value, then you also need to look at the French teams who are so quick to throw in the towel.

Well, it was the complaining and demands for change coming from the Bulls coach in the week leading up to the game that sparked this round of discussion, so the result merely served to provoke TNT into also demanding change.

I think you are focusing too hard on the results. I took it for granted that the SA teams would dominate, so them underperforming is a surprise to me and a let down - as a rugby fan and spectator I would like to watch good teams play good rugby. I am irritated that they haven't really challenged this season as it was literally the only thing in the positive column for me. It is not the core complaint, and it certainly wouldn't make up for the problems inherent in the SA sides joining the competition.

However, anyone pointing at the French is just engaging in daft whataboutery. They absolutely provide far more value than they take away. Just like English and Irish sides, they are embedded in the very core of the competition and its history. They also provide a huge chunk of fans and viewers, along with some of the greatest and accessible away trips opposing supporters could dream of. No one is pretending the tournament has ever been perfect and no nation can claim to be flawless in their approach.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I hope in a few years we will have established ourselves in the competition, and have some rivalries develop with some of the big teams.

I never thought we'd do well in our first couple of seasons. We'll do well at home games, but the away knock-out games will kill us. That's why I wasn't too worried about the $harks going into the Challenge Cup; we had a much more realistic chance of going further.

[assfly]

Well, it was the complaining and demands for change coming from the Bulls coach in the week leading up to the game that sparked this round of discussion, so the result merely served to provoke TNT into also demanding change.

I think you are focusing too hard on the results. I took it for granted that the SA teams would dominate, so them underperforming is a surprise to me and a let down - as a rugby fan and spectator I would like to watch good teams play good rugby. I am irritated that they haven't really challenged this season as it was literally the only thing in the positive column for me. It is not the core complaint, and it certainly wouldn't make up for the problems inherent in the SA sides joining the competition.

However, anyone pointing at the French is just engaging in daft whataboutery. They absolutely provide far more value than they take away. Just like English and Irish sides, they are embedded in the very core of the competition and its history. They also provide a huge chunk of fans and viewers, along with some of the greatest and accessible away trips opposing supporters could dream of. No one is pretending the tournament has ever been perfect and no nation can claim to be flawless in their approach.

Fair enough. I hope in a few years we will have established ourselves in the competition, and have some rivalries develop with some of the big teams.

I never thought we'd do well in our first couple of seasons. We'll do well at home games, but the away knock-out games will kill us. That's why I wasn't too worried about the $harks going into the Challenge Cup; we had a much more realistic chance of going further.
[/quote]

[LoveOfTheGame]

Gatvlieg versus quotes on a Wednesday morning....

[_Os_]

The Cheetahs could barely buy a win outside of South Africa. Given how often teams send weakened sides to SA, the Cheetahs' mediocre returns in the Pro14 era is no evidence at all of quality that led to an improvement for the competing nations.

Well, the one way we do measure them is in European competition. That's basically the purpose of it. And it's not a great story for the majority of the non-SA sides. But I've talked about this before and relitigating it would make it seem like I have a chip on my shoulder about it, when in reality it's just an observation.

As for "There's almost no easy away matches in the URC" - Cardiff? Scarlets? Zebre? C'mon.

I'm no expert on the URC but I do know that, for example, Leinster have never had to pick a 1st team for an away game in SA, which is mad stuff. I see they got gubbed the other day with their 2nd XV. Does that tell us anything about their quality? Not really. Does the fact that the Cheetahs beat teams in Bloemfontaine mean anything if they couldn't buy a win outside of SA? I'm not sure it does - to me, that's an indictment of the warping power of the travel and the altitude; I don't think that has any positive influence on the national sides at all.

On the Cheetahs, I support adding sides to any competition that are hard to beat, if the format makes sense. Rugby is in a strange position of not being a small sport, but not a large sport either. There's not many teams of the required level if you want to grow a competitive competition (and the financial model needs growth, probably unsustainable, but that's where we are). URC could've added European teams (re-badged Portuguese and Georgia national teams etc) but that would've meant Wales/Scotland/Ireland carrying them financially (SA is paying a participation fee at the moment) and if the competition becomes uncompetitive then it eventually collapses. The URC unions decided to make SA their main expansion market, on paper the pros outweigh the cons (can only know for sure by trying it). If both the Cheetahs and Kings had badly failed it may have forced a reassessment.

European competition setups are something very new for SA fans. Not many of us follow European soccer and those of us who watched European club rugby popped in for one big match or watched one competition. We're not used to major competitions running at the same time. Last season there were SA fans who couldn't tell the difference between URC and European competitions. We're used to the Super Rugby and CC model and imo some of that thinking made its way into coaching teams and squad formation. Particularly at the Sharks an immense 1st XV was built with not much depth, the coaching team haven't had much (any?) prior European experience. Bulls notably have built depth and are running a proper squad system, but Jake White has coached in Europe.

Having the players has never been our issue and SARU has a production strategy. Meaning instead of trying to keep every big name player which is expensive and impossible, the strategy is to keep a small core group and produce more players (hence why SARU was eager for more Super Rugby sides). The other issue was SARU finances were nuked by Covid, the main reason SARU couldn't give up on the 2021 Lions Tour was because it had no income for 2 years. I expect some improvement from our sides as they adjust to all this, not sure how much. My impression was always that competing against the French clubs would be extremely difficult, so far we've done better against them than I expected. The English clubs have done better against us than I expected.

Personally I find URC easier to follow because it's a structure I'm more familiar with. The Sharks lost away to Zebre this season (ffs), that was more us being bad than them being good perhaps. But yes I think any URC side has a shot at home against any other side, especially so if the travelling side risks picking a weaker team (obviously). The Welsh are underperformers in the URC to put it mildly, but like I said I see more from them than I did some Super Rugby sides (Sunwolves had 3 wins from 25 matches against all SA sides, all 3 under a score in Singapore/HK/Japan).

You always have to ask "compared to what?", if not the URC then what for us?

An old school ten team CC, like Oom remembers from the 1980s. Problem is it isn't the 1980s any more, the SA economy could not sustain that at a decent level. It wouldn't be a Top14 standard competition (CC in the 1980s attracted foreign players, Winterbottom for Transvaal, Mexted for Natal, etc). So what it'll be is a substandard comp, that we'll all watch because we have little other choice, probably stagnant with no international component. It would be like sanctioning ourselves, just like SA in the 1980s.

Super Rugby, where our bargaining power failed to get acceptable results. We ended up with 4 teams in a 15 team competition from 2018 onwards. This wasn't only a return to the 4 sides we had during Super 12 (ie a collapse back to 2005 team levels), but an expansion of non-SA teams too, which impacts the strength of non-SA teams and tour length. It also undermines the SARU production strategy (and locks us into an ARU/NZRU model of trying to outbid foreign clubs for our top players, which is impossible imo). I'm not going to rake over all this too much, but the Aussies wanted a Japanese team, Japan is literally on the other side of the world from SA (it's like adding a team from Australia to the English GP), so it had to also play in HK and Singapore as well as Japan to even vaguely work. The Aussies didn't want a structure which meant it was in their conference, it ended up in the SA conference (SA teams played it, SA fans watched it, in other words SA de facto paid for it). Suddenly when there's no SA sides there's also no Japanese side because they don't want to pay for it.

My impression is they (always seemed more ARU driven than NZRU) wanted to shovel us out of Super Rugby and underestimated our options outside of it. I think they also overestimated the strength of Super Rugby without SA teams. It's now an NZ comp with some Aussie hangers on. There were expansion options that could've avoided this (2 Argie and 6 SA sides in one conference, the Aus/NZ/Jap/PI sides in the other conference, top sides from both meet at the end), but those were usually proposed by SARU and rejected by the ARU (a format like that could've produced a more commercially viable SA/Arg conference neatly in two large-ish markets, and not many Aus sides in the playoffs).

Super Rugby (as it was) ending is a massive failure by all the unions involved. It probably harms rugby. SARU just has to make the best of it now, they've done well with the URC imo. Not convinced our SANZAAR partners would've stuck with Super Rugby as long as SA did if they were in our time zone, some Aussie spiv would've been demanding entry into an English club comp back in the 1990s.

This is an interesting perspective and I don't have a lot to add to it, except to say that you're also seeing a drop off from a frankly legendary set of NZ players (and some Aussies). To address your point to Sards, NZ's international drop off came as a result of a combination of extremely poor decisions made regarding coaching staff, and the inevitable reduction in quality after losing a large number of frankly all-time great players. I'd argue SA aren't anywhere near as good as they were in the mid/late 2000s, despite the RWC win.

SA's problem was previously management and the knowledge side of the sport. This was very odd, we were a key innovator before the pro era, we were brains and brawn. We've built up a decent selection of coaches now though, even our talking heads on Super Sport are better than they were. There's also no reluctance to hire foreigners if they add something when previously that was forbidden (Chasing the Sun 2 made the contribution of Felix Jones really clear). We've got a lot more out of a perhaps less talented squad than we got out of some ridiculously strong squads (partly this is Rassie's selection policy, he picks the right players for him which doesn't always mean the most talented, he favours toughness ... there's talent we're not using, Du Preez twins etc).

NZ are always going to produce something, they're too good at the sport. For them it's more about finding a model that works to fund it. Aussies I'm entirely unconvinced by, they have serious issues. Without SA Super Rugby is now NZ heavy both in the quality of teams and the funding, the logic of that is something closer to the NPC than a model which gives Aus and NZ equal weight. Which would mean the Aussies becoming a junior partner of NZ, it's already happening (no Japanese or Argie side which NZRU wasn't keen on, ARU supported a Japanese side, SARU an Argie side, NZRU the PIs). Aus is hosting a Lions Series and RWC, so they have opportunities to avoid that in the short term (bombing in both would probably speed it up though).

[assfly]

Gatvlieg versus quotes on a Wednesday morning....

Fucking hell

[OomStruisbaai]

Investec Champions Cup semifinals

Leinster Rugby v Northampton Saints

Saturday 4 May, 6:30pm (local), Croke Park, Dublin

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (Fra)

Stade Toulousain v Harlequins

Sunday 5 May, 4pm (local), Le Stadium, Toulouse

Referee: Andrew Brace (Ire)

EPCR Challenge Cup semifinals

Hollywoodbets Sharks v ASM Clermont Auvergne

Saturday 4 May, 1:30pm , Twickenham Stoop

Referee: Luke Pearce (Eng)

Gloucester Rugby v Benetton Rugby

Saturday 4 May, 4pm, Kingsholm

Referee: Nika Amashukeli (Geo)

[fishfoodie]

Really looking forward to the Leinster v Saints game, hopefully the weather cooperates & we get conditions both teams want.

It'd be good if the camera teams & producers get their eyes in, because a GAA pitch is a lot bigger than a Union one, & it sometimes feels like they're shooting from the next county

[SaintK]

Can't see anything other than convincing wins for Leinster and Toulouse.

[SaintK]

Leinster: Frawley; Larmour, Henshaw, Osborne, Lowe; R Byrne, Gibson-Park; Porter, Sheehan, Furlong; Molony, McCarthy; Baird, van der Flier, Doris (c).
Replacements: Kelleher, Healy, Ala'alatoa, Jenkins, Conan, McGrath, H Byrne, O'Brien.

Saints: Furbank; Ramm, Freeman, Dingwall, Hendy; F Smith, Mitchell; A Waller, Langdon, Davison; Moon, Coles; Lawes (c), Graham, Augustus.
Replacements: S Matavesi, Iyogun, Millar Mills, Mayanavanua, Scott-Young, James, Litchfield, Seabrook.
Good to see all those rested last week against Quins back. Shame that Ludlam and Sleightholme picked up injuries and miss out.
Leinster will be far too strong all round and win +20

[inactionman]

Can't see anything other than convincing wins for Leinster and Toulouse.

Live in hope!

I'd love to see Northampton do well as they've been so easy on the eye this season, good skills and adventure.

[Tichtheid]

ST
15. Blair Kinghorn, 14. Juan Cruz Mallia, 13. Paul Costes, 12. Pita Ahki, 11. Matthis Lebel, 10. Romain Ntamack, 9. Antoine Dupont (c), 1. Cyril Baille, 2. Peato Mauvaka, 3. Dorian Aldegheri, 4. Thibaud Flament, 5. Emmanuel Meafou, 6. François Cros, 7. Jack Willis, 8. Alexandre Roumat

Replacements:
16. Julien Marchand, 17. Rodrigue Neti, 18. Joel Merkler, 19. Richie Arnold, 20. Mathis Castro-Ferreira, 21. Paul Graou, 22. Santiago Chocobares, 23. Thomas Ramos

Quins
15. Tyrone Green, 14. Louis Lynagh, 13. Luke Northmore, 12. Andre Esterhuizen, 11. Cadan Murley, 10. Marcus Smith, 9. Danny Care, 1. Fin Baxter, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Will Collier, 4. Irne Herbst, 5. Stephan Lewies (c), 6. Chandler Cunningham-South, 7. Will Evans, 8. Alex Dombrandt

Replacements:
16. Sam Riley, 17. Joe Marler, 18. Simon Kerrod, 19. George Hammond, 20. James Chisholm, 21. Will Porter, 22. Jarrod Evans, 23. Oscar Beard


I'm sure everyone has seen him, but if you haven't, young Costes in the Toulouse midfield is definitely one to watch

[SaintK]

Can't see anything other than convincing wins for Leinster and Toulouse.

Live in hope!

I'd love to see Northampton do well as they've been so easy on the eye this season, good skills and adventure.

So would I!!! Especially as I bought my tickets for the Final last October

[OomStruisbaai]

Can't see anything other than convincing wins for Leinster and Toulouse.

Live in hope!

I'd love to see Northampton do well as they've been so easy on the eye this season, good skills and adventure.

So would I!!! Especially as I bought my tickets for the Final last October

Leinster will spoil your part

[SaintK]

Live in hope!

I'd love to see Northampton do well as they've been so easy on the eye this season, good skills and adventure.

So would I!!! Especially as I bought my tickets for the Final last October

Leinster will spoil your part

Yep
Can but dream!

[yermum]

I have a sneaky feeling Northampton could pull off a shock win

[Sandstorm]

I have a sneaky feeling Northampton could pull off a shock win

Me too. Leinster are going backwards at the moment.

[Uncle fester]

I have a sneaky feeling Northampton could pull off a shock win

Me too. Leinster are going backwards at the moment.

That will work in their favour. They sent the kids to South Africa to rest the front liners. There's a few L's under the belt to ensure there's no complacency.
Convincing leinster win even if they might struggle to replicate the emotional intensity of the lar game.

[OomStruisbaai]

Fassi playing touch rugby

[Sards]

Setting a precedent here. Should have been 2 yellows already

[OomStruisbaai]

Sharks defense is so kak.

[Sards]

Sharks defense non existing

[TheNatalShark]

Not a chance, need some cards from Clermont to make it an even contest

[OomStruisbaai]

WC scrum in tatters. Sharks need to get in gear.

[Sards]

WC scrum in tatters. Sharks need to get in gear.

Can you just vokof with your bitter and snide remarks

[Sards]

Vincent Koch doesn't like to do any work

[OomStruisbaai]

WC scrum in tatters. Sharks need to get in gear.

Can you just vokof with your bitter and snide remarks

Sards, must be difficult Can't be worse then this 1st half. Let's hope the Springboks will get in gear in the 2nd half. We know they are better then this kak display.

Common Sharks, make us proud!!!!!

[OomStruisbaai]

The commentator , Swys, showing up Fassi kak defense.

[TheNatalShark]

The Sharks seem to have employed whomever coaches Scotland's restarts

[Torquemada 1420]

Jauneau showing why Lucu should never see another cap.

[OomStruisbaai]

Hier kom die Tjarks!

[OomStruisbaai]

Still enough time

[TheNatalShark]

Felt sharks should have been pinged twice for crawling.

But it was the yellow we needed

[OomStruisbaai]

That should be a penalty try

[TheNatalShark]

Awful by Fassi

[Torquemada 1420]

Where's the cover? Pen try FFS

[OomStruisbaai]

Game on.

[Torquemada 1420]

Clermont will never escape their chokers tag.

[TheNatalShark]

Masuku's kicking has come a hell of a long way in a short time

[OomStruisbaai]

Another 1 pointer.