Kicking off in Israel

[Ymx]

Good lord, the states is worse than here, with their Hamas supporting protesters

[Calculon]

These people are completely divorced from reality. Sadly, it seems to be becoming increasingly common there.

[epwc]

These people are completely divorced from reality. Sadly, it seems to be becoming increasingly common there.

Where? Is there evidence that demonstrates this assertion?

[Calculon]

is a legitimate target for the IDF, for example if some guy in Gaza City was collecting the bins for a living he'd be working for Hamas, albeit indirectly. Those with the above opinion seem to see that poor sod as a legitimate target to be shot and killed on sight, or bombed and left under the rubble with the rest of his family.

.

Sanitation workers are employees of UNWRA,
not Hamas - as well as education, healthcare, camp infrastructure and social safety net assistance, all run by
UNWRA. Hamas focuses on building tunnels, stealimg aid and carrying out attacks on Israelis.

I was talking about municipal workers and low level officials in Gaza before the bombing and bulldozing started, although to fair when you look it up you see that blockades have affected water supply and bombing of major power plants have been happening for decades so you have to be specific, my meaning was regarding what has happened since Oct ‘23. I wasn’t talking about what happens in the camps the people have been forced into

this is Rafah refugee camp in Gaza. UNWRA is responsible for sanitation services (as well as aid distribution, maintenance, schools, health services, social services etc)




this is Khan Younis refugee camp in Gaza. UNWRA is responsible for sanitation services (as well as aid distribution, maintenance, schools, health services, social services etc)


this is Bureij refugee camp in Gaza. UNWRA is responsible for sanitation services (as well as aid distribution, maintenance, schools, health services, social services etc)



etc etc

[Calculon]

These people are completely divorced from reality. Sadly, it seems to be becoming increasingly common there.

Where? Is there evidence that demonstrates this assertion?

Rise of MAGA, conspiracy theories becoming mainstream…feel free to disagree

[Tichtheid]

Sanitation workers are employees of UNWRA,
not Hamas - as well as education, healthcare, camp infrastructure and social safety net assistance, all run by
UNWRA. Hamas focuses on building tunnels, stealimg aid and carrying out attacks on Israelis.

I was talking about municipal workers and low level officials in Gaza before the bombing and bulldozing started, although to fair when you look it up you see that blockades have affected water supply and bombing of major power plants have been happening for decades so you have to be specific, my meaning was regarding what has happened since Oct ‘23. I wasn’t talking about what happens in the camps the people have been forced into

this is Rafah refugee camp in Gaza. UNWRA is responsible for sanitation services (as well as aid distribution, maintenance, schools, health services, social services etc)




this is Khan Younis refugee camp in Gaza. UNWRA is responsible for sanitation services (as well as aid distribution, maintenance, schools, health services, social services etc)


this is Bureij refugee camp in Gaza. UNWRA is responsible for sanitation services (as well as aid distribution, maintenance, schools, health services, social services etc)



etc etc

The pictures aren't showing, but to repeat myself, I was not talking about who runs what in the camps. I was talking about municipal workers in Gaza City before the events of the 7th of October.

[Simian]

That’s a false equivalence. This was directly about Hamas.

I’m not the one making a false equivalence.

Yes you were.

You’re both as bad as each other. Thought I’d add in my own false equivalence here ;)

[Tichtheid]

That’s a false equivalence. This was directly about Hamas.

I’m not the one making a false equivalence.

Yes you were.

A false equivalence or false equivalency is an informal fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] Colloquially, a false equivalence is often called "comparing apples and oranges."
Characteristics
This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence does not bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

I was doing the exact opposite of that, I was saying that the marches in London and the people either side of the argument are nothing like what passes for life in Gaza at the moment, not for those who are calling for a ceasefire or for those involved in counter-protest.

Your continued posting of some shouting and swearing at some marches numbering in thousands if not tens or hundreds of thousands over the weeks and months seemed to me that you suggested this was such a terrible thing and this is where we should be focussing our ire and disapproval, rather than what is happening in Gaza.

[Ymx]

You were saying

There are people who erroneously conflate supporting Hamas because they support Palestine, or even just oppose Israel.

And claimed this was the same thing.

Except it isn’t. It was a false equivalence

The man was angered and threatening because Hamas were called terrorists. He was not holding up an Israel flag, he was holding up this

[epwc]

You were saying

There are people who erroneously conflate supporting Hamas because they support Palestine, or even just oppose Israel.

And claimed this was the same thing.

Except it isn’t. It was a false equivalence

The man was angered and threatening because Hamas were called terrorists. He was not holding up an Israel flag, he was holding up this

OK, this sets the context for the photo of the man. I would agree that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, I've not seen any confrontations at any of the marches I've been on, even when people have been elbowed out of the way by over eager people, feet trodden on etc.

I've no clue what the proximity of the police was to this incident, I'm no expert on the law either. If the police were able to overhear the conversation and it contravened any laws then he should be punished for it.

[Tichtheid]

You were saying

There are people who erroneously conflate supporting Hamas because they support Palestine, or even just oppose Israel.

And claimed this was the same thing.

Except it isn’t. It was a false equivalence

The man was angered and threatening because Hamas were called terrorists. He was not holding up an Israel flag, he was holding up this

Go back and read my post and then yours.

There was more than one point in my post. When you don't quote or specifically say what you are referring to it's very difficult to tell what you are talking about.

However the guy with the placard is doing the same thing, conflating pro-Palestine or anti-war with being pro Hamas - if he isn't conflating the two, then what is he doing holding that placard at that march?

[Slick]

I get that angle. However it’s already past that. Long before Oct 7 and the war which ensued, came this … at an unrwa school.



The next stage needs to be rebuilding, not allowing this type of indoctrination to continue.

And clearly just leaving it to Gaza is not an option. Tried that in 2005.

But I’d say a strong international peace keeping force surely needs to take over. Certainly not Israel

The irony of all this is that you seem to have no idea how radicalised and indoctrinated you have become over the last couple of years.

Says the man who pops in on this thread and adds zero, just throws in pathetic cheap shots.

I don't come on this thread much because there isn't much to add, no one is going to change their mind. But I do think crazy shit should be called out.

And, I don't think it's a cheap shot, it's a fact. You have always been a bit right leaning, which is fine, and I've often in the past agreed with some of what you have said. But in the last months you have quite obviously gone down a rabbit hole and been radicalised. You are constantly posting comment and tweets etc from extreme sources and your language has changed a lot. It's fairly classic stuff.

FWIW, I think you're a decent bloke who needs to take a step back.

[Calculon]

You were saying

There are people who erroneously conflate supporting Hamas because they support Palestine, or even just oppose Israel.

And claimed this was the same thing.

Except it isn’t. It was a false equivalence

The man was angered and threatening because Hamas were called terrorists. He was not holding up an Israel flag, he was holding up this

Go back and read my post and then yours.

There was more than one point in my post. When you don't quote or specifically say what you are referring to it's very difficult to tell what you are talking about.

However the guy with the placard is doing the same thing, conflating pro-Palestine or anti-war with being pro Hamas - if he isn't conflating the two, then what is he doing holding that placard at that march?

Could be for several reasons, support for Israel, a bit of attention whoring/publicity for his real passion which is opposition to the Iranian regime. Probably also to wind up the people at the marches who are pro Hamas.

[Ymx]

Hamas kind of seem like a relevant factor in this war.

Not sure if this needs pointing out or not.

[epwc]

Could be for several reasons, support for Israel, a bit of attention whoring/publicity for his real passion which is opposition to the Iranian regime. Probably also to wind up the people at the marches who are pro Hamas.

I can't believe you've posted something I can 100% agree with

[Guy Smiley]

Oh dear... peaceful protests attacked by violent counter,

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/515726 ... ests-in-ny

Supporters of Israel attacked a pro-Palestinian protest camp at the University of California in Los Angeles, while New York's mayor said a pro-Palestinian protest at Columbia University broken up by police had been led by outsiders.

Witness footage from UCLA, verified by Reuters, showed people wielding sticks or poles to hammer on wooden boards being used as makeshift barricades to protect the pro-Palestinian protesters before police were deployed to the campus.

On the other side of the country, New York police arrested pro-Palestinian demonstrators holed up in a building at Columbia University and removed a protest encampment on Tuesday night local time. New York City Mayor Eric Adams said about 300 people had been arrested and he blamed the protests on outside agitators, but without offering concrete evidence.

This is where we condemn the attackers and the craven actions of the Police forces, right?

[Margin__Walker]

Plenty of condemnation to go round to be fair imo. First and foremost for the right wing mob blowing in for a fight.

However there should be a little left over for the kids playing campus gestapo, with their hi vis vests and check points to decide who goes where on site and eject undesirables from the premises.

[Guy Smiley]

Plenty of condemnation to go round to be fair imo. First and foremost for the right wing mob blowing in for a fight.

However there should be a little left over for the kids playing campus gestapo, with their hi vis vests and check points to decide who goes where on site and eject undesirables from the premises.

Like... checkpoints?

[Margin__Walker]

Plenty of condemnation to go round to be fair imo. First and foremost for the right wing mob blowing in for a fight.

However there should be a little left over for the kids playing campus gestapo, with their hi vis vests and check points to decide who goes where on site and eject undesirables from the premises.

Like... checkpoints?

Yep. Checkpoints

Some general physical removal of uncooperative jews here and there. That sort of thing

[Guy Smiley]

Plenty of condemnation to go round to be fair imo. First and foremost for the right wing mob blowing in for a fight.

However there should be a little left over for the kids playing campus gestapo, with their hi vis vests and check points to decide who goes where on site and eject undesirables from the premises.

Like... checkpoints?

Yep. Checkpoints

Some general physical removal of uncooperative jews here and there. That sort of thing

Or undesirable Palestinians going to work...

while I agree that physically blocking access on the University grounds is beyond the pale, the irony is delicious.

[Margin__Walker]

Like... checkpoints?

Yep. Checkpoints

Some general physical removal of uncooperative jews here and there. That sort of thing

Or undesirable Palestinians going to work...

while I agree that physically blocking access on the University grounds is beyond the pale, the irony is delicious.

Well quite. Very ironic.

[epwc]

Or tending their crops or….

[Guy Smiley]

Or tending their crops or….

going to school, the hospital or just going about their business.

[Tilly Orifice]

Mass protests against what is going on in Gaza are right and proper. They make me want to stand up and cheer for the thousands of students involved.
Of course with that many people involved, some of them do shitty things, and even if they don't, the whole thing makes it pretty easy to craft a narrative that distracts from the genocide instead of calling attention to it. Peaceful protesters get attacked by police and it becomes a violent demonstration. Soon people start talking about a "riot".
So, a dilemma.

[Calculon]

Plenty of condemnation to go round to be fair imo. First and foremost for the right wing mob blowing in for a fight.

However there should be a little left over for the kids playing campus gestapo, with their hi vis vests and check points to decide who goes where on site and eject undesirables from the premises.

Like... checkpoints?

Yep. Checkpoints

Some general physical removal of uncooperative jews here and there. That sort of thing

but they look so cool when wearing their keffiyeh

[David in Gwent]

It's interesting that the BBC have admitting fluffing their figures for deaths during the conflict. The figures supplied by Hamas included their soldiers, the true civilian death toll is around 20,000 - 24,000.

Whilst a lot of innocent people have lost their lives at the hands of puppets in Iran, Lebanon, Israel and the US I think the real figure should be noted in the context of what a genocide is and what it isn't.

This isn't a genocide.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... naccurate/

[David in Gwent]

Plenty of condemnation to go round to be fair imo. First and foremost for the right wing mob blowing in for a fight.

However there should be a little left over for the kids playing campus gestapo, with their hi vis vests and check points to decide who goes where on site and eject undesirables from the premises.

It's an interesting world you inhabit.

In my world, the kids that "blew in for a fight" were getting rid of the people acting like Nazis and should be congratulated for standing up to tyranny.

[epwc]

This isn't a genocide.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... ays-expert

[David in Gwent]

This isn't a genocide.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... ays-expert

I don't give a fuck what the Guardian says. 22, 000 deaths out of a population of 2,100,000 isn't a genocide..

[Tilly Orifice]

This isn't a genocide.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... ays-expert

I don't give a fuck what the Guardian says. 22, 000 deaths out of a population of 2,100,000 isn't a genocide..

No matter how much you dislike Hamas fighters, or how many you think have been killed, you still have to include them in the death toll.

[epwc]

I don't give a fuck what the Guardian says. 22, 000 deaths out of a population of 2,100,000 isn't a genocide..

Doesn't matter what the fuck you think:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

[David in Gwent]

I don't give a fuck what the Guardian says. 22, 000 deaths out of a population of 2,100,000 isn't a genocide..

Doesn't matter what the fuck you think:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

the same UN that just excluded Hamas from the conflict-related sexual violence list?

[epwc]

the same UN that just excluded Hamas from the conflict-related sexual violence list?

That is the definition of genocide, which has nothing to do with current UN policy (right, or wrong)

[David in Gwent]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... ays-expert

I don't give a fuck what the Guardian says. 22, 000 deaths out of a population of 2,100,000 isn't a genocide..

No matter how much you dislike Hamas fighters, or how many you think have been killed, you still have to include them in the death toll.

Tell that to the BBC.

Using that logic and the figures we're basing "genocide" on, then Nazi Germany committed genoicde on the UK population in WW2

[dpedin]

It's interesting that the BBC have admitting fluffing their figures for deaths during the conflict. The figures supplied by Hamas included their soldiers, the true civilian death toll is around 20,000 - 24,000.

Whilst a lot of innocent people have lost their lives at the hands of puppets in Iran, Lebanon, Israel and the US I think the real figure should be noted in the context of what a genocide is and what it isn't.

This isn't a genocide.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... naccurate/

Ah that's a relief! Only 24,000, mostly women and children, have been killed and many more maimed and inured let alone the mental illness, famine and disease at epidemic levels. I am assuming that any Palestinian man killed is rightly counted as a 'Hammas fighter' just by dint of being there? I can sleep easier tonight safe in the knowledge that the guardian of all things true, unbiased and honest the Telegraph has got to the bottom of this dreadful deceit. And there was me thinking that Israel was committing genocide and laying waste to Palestinian lands - honestly what the feck do the UN, EU, Amnesty, FIDH, etc know about these sorts of things? Of course we should let the UK carry on selling Israel some more weapons now we are clear it is not using them for genocide, a profit is a profit!

[David in Gwent]

the same UN that just excluded Hamas from the conflict-related sexual violence list?

That is the definition of genocide.

It's their definition of genocide.

[epwc]

It's their definition of genocide.

Is there an alternative officially recognised definition of genocide?

[David in Gwent]

It's interesting that the BBC have admitting fluffing their figures for deaths during the conflict. The figures supplied by Hamas included their soldiers, the true civilian death toll is around 20,000 - 24,000.

Whilst a lot of innocent people have lost their lives at the hands of puppets in Iran, Lebanon, Israel and the US I think the real figure should be noted in the context of what a genocide is and what it isn't.

This isn't a genocide.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... naccurate/

Ah that's a relief! Only 24,000, mostly women and children, have been killed and many more maimed and inured let alone the mental illness, famine and disease at epidemic levels. I am assuming that any Palestinian man killed is rightly counted as a 'Hammas fighter' just by dint of being there? I can sleep easier tonight safe in the knowledge that the guardian of all things true, unbiased and honest the Telegraph has got to the bottom of this dreadful deceit. And there was me thinking that Israel was committing genocide and laying waste to Palestinian lands - honestly what the feck do the UN, EU, Amnesty, FIDH, etc know about these sorts of things? Of course we should let the UK carry on selling Israel some more weapons now we are clear it is not using them for genocide, a profit is a profit!

Unfortunately this is what happens when an Iranian backed terror group fucks around. They found out.

Every single bit of suffering those people are going through lies at the feet of Hamas leaders, their soldiers and the people that funded them.

Every single bit.

[epwc]

Every single bit.

What, all the bits since 1948?

[Biffer]

I don't give a fuck what the Guardian says. 22, 000 deaths out of a population of 2,100,000 isn't a genocide..

No matter how much you dislike Hamas fighters, or how many you think have been killed, you still have to include them in the death toll.

Tell that to the BBC.

Using that logic and the figures we're basing "genocide" on, then Nazi Germany committed genoicde on the UK population in WW2

UK casualties (civilian and military) in WWII were just under 1% of the total population. Civilian casualties were less that a fifth of that total. But the Nazi leadership broadly considered the UK to be 'aryan' so they didn't demonstrate "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"