Kicking off in Israel

[Biffer]

According to an article in the New York Times, Israeli officials had details of an attack plan, then they were aware of a day-long Hamas training exercise which followed the plan exactly, the plan was carried out on October the 7th.

The plan was seemingly dismissed as being something Hamas was not capable of carrying out

https://archive.is/TlIo3

Which is different from "let it happen on purpose"

Where's that quote from? The "let it happen on purpose" bit?

[David in Gwent]

According to an article in the New York Times, Israeli officials had details of an attack plan, then they were aware of a day-long Hamas training exercise which followed the plan exactly, the plan was carried out on October the 7th.

The plan was seemingly dismissed as being something Hamas was not capable of carrying out

https://archive.is/TlIo3

Which is different from "let it happen on purpose"

So incompetent rather than complicity seems to be plausible.

Having studied the events of the 7th October there were many many factors that led to the brutal success of Hama's military actions - one tiny example - did you know the 7th was the start of Sukkot and as with most militaries when there is a family festival the married guys tend to get the time off - this left most of the defence forces in the area not only shorter than normal on manpower - but most of the senior leadership were at home with their families, leaving Junior officers to respond to the carnage.

People saying they "let it happen" borders on the anti-semitic - but it's a popular theory around Taxi drivers, far left rugby message boards and kids on college campus.

[David in Gwent]

Here's my "conspiracy theory"

Such was level of violence and evil committed by Hamas on the Civilians in the towns and villages near the border, Hamas knew, without a doubt that the IDF would respond as brutally as possible against the people in Gaza. Hamas thought this would put the entire Arab world against Israel and would destroy of all the work that Israel had done in normalising relationships with it's Arab neighbours.

For every civilian that a Hamas fighter killed that day, the leadership would have known and what's more, wanted, that 200 of their own people would die as a result.

Hamas are evil, fucking satanic.

[Tilly Orifice]

Here's my "conspiracy theory"

Such was level of violence and evil committed by Hamas on the Civilians in the towns and villages near the border, Hamas knew, without a doubt that the IDF would respond as brutally as possible against the people in Gaza. Hamas thought this would put the entire Arab world against Israel and would destroy of all the work that Israel had done in normalising relationships with it's Arab neighbours.

For every civilian that a Hamas fighter killed that day, the leadership would have known and what's more, wanted, that 200 of their own people would die as a result.

Hamas are evil, fucking satanic.

Maybe some truth here for a change. Hamas knows Israel and Israel knows Hamas, the odd misstep notwithstanding.
Neither of them seems to give much of a fuck about multitudes of dead people.

[David in Gwent]

Here's my "conspiracy theory"

Such was level of violence and evil committed by Hamas on the Civilians in the towns and villages near the border, Hamas knew, without a doubt that the IDF would respond as brutally as possible against the people in Gaza. Hamas thought this would put the entire Arab world against Israel and would destroy of all the work that Israel had done in normalising relationships with it's Arab neighbours.

For every civilian that a Hamas fighter killed that day, the leadership would have known and what's more, wanted, that 200 of their own people would die as a result.

Hamas are evil, fucking satanic.

Maybe some truth here for a change. Hamas knows Israel and Israel knows Hamas, the odd misstep notwithstanding.
Neither of them seems to give much of a fuck about multitudes of dead people.

Bollocks. Israel knew the Hamas of 10 years ago when they gave them the keys to Gaza. It's quite obvious to anyone with half a brain that they did not know the new, Iranian funded, Hezbollah trained genocide attempting satanic Hamas of today.

Which is why any decent human would support the eradication of Hamas as an operational force and would encourage the IDF to finish the job as soon as possible.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Which is why any decent human would support the eradication of Hamas as an operational force and would encourage the IDF to finish the job as soon as possible.

Okay, but many would and do baulk at the loss of innocents caught up in how Israel are going about that.

I thought Israel would struggle because they would lose boots on the ground, instead they're trying to bomb remotely and to hell with the loss of lives. Which not only remains an issue in isolation but it's far from clear it's actually making Israel safer

[Enzedder]

Which is why any decent human would support the eradication of Hamas as an operational force and would encourage the IDF to finish the job as soon as possible.

Okay, but many would and do baulk at the loss of innocents caught up in how Israel are going about that.

I thought Israel would struggle because they would lose boots on the ground, instead they're trying to bomb remotely and to hell with the loss of lives. Which not only remains an issue in isolation but it's far from clear it's actually making Israel safer

Going door to door would be suicide. However, Israel has to be held accountable for the preventable deaths of so many civilians.

[David in Gwent]

Which is why any decent human would support the eradication of Hamas as an operational force and would encourage the IDF to finish the job as soon as possible.

Okay, but many would and do baulk at the loss of innocents caught up in how Israel are going about that.

I thought Israel would struggle because they would lose boots on the ground, instead they're trying to bomb remotely and to hell with the loss of lives. Which not only remains an issue in isolation but it's far from clear it's actually making Israel safer

To only have killed 20,000 civilians in what is one of the most densely populated areas (21,000 people per 1 Sqm) in the world is quite frankly remarkable and the IDF should be lauded for their restraint, not castigated especially when you consider that the purpose of Hamas, as written in their charter, is to destroy Israel and the Jews.

If you support or "understand" the actions of Hamas, you are either pig ignorant or evil.

I'm not sure when you people are going to realise that the people of Gaza are just bodies to feed the Anti Israel war machine and that you people only really pretend to care when it's Jews killing Muslims and not Muslims killing Muslims or Muslims killing everyone else.

[Hugo]

No surprise here. USA always fucks up in the Middle East.

No one can win. Middle East is full of religious dictatorships ran by arseholes. Netanyahu is very nearly conforming to that norm. Without the USA they will quite happily be killing each other at anyrate.

US government and MIC is always a common denominator. In virtually all conflict throughout the world they are involved on some level, egging stuff on or selling arms to one or both sides.

[David in Gwent]

No surprise here. USA always fucks up in the Middle East.

No one can win. Middle East is full of religious dictatorships ran by arseholes. Netanyahu is very nearly conforming to that norm. Without the USA they will quite happily be killing each other at anyrate.

US government and MIC is always a common denominator. In virtually all conflict throughout the world they are involved on some level, egging stuff on or selling arms to one or both sides.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that since the West helped overthrew the democratically Ukrainian Gov in 2014 and the ensuing chaos that we're actually the bad guys. Again.

[Hugo]

No one can win. Middle East is full of religious dictatorships ran by arseholes. Netanyahu is very nearly conforming to that norm. Without the USA they will quite happily be killing each other at anyrate.

US government and MIC is always a common denominator. In virtually all conflict throughout the world they are involved on some level, egging stuff on or selling arms to one or both sides.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that since the West helped overthrew the democratically Ukrainian Gov in 2014 and the ensuing chaos that we're actually the bad guys. Again.

You might be onto something. For starters who sells most of the arms in the world?

[David in Gwent]

How people can't see through the IMC and the Democrat party in the USA these last years is beyond me.

People have been divided into Left and Right and they have played us all perfectly.

[Hugo]

How people can't see through the IMC and the Democrat party in the USA these last years is beyond me.

People have been divided into Left and Right and they have played us all perfectly.

Wym by the IMC?

[David in Gwent]

Industrial Military Complex.

[Hugo]

Got it.

[convoluted]

You guys haven't encountered convoluted before?

He's one of ours... a MAGA loving Kiwi ...

Umm, you missed out 'climate change denier'.
Speaking of which, given you have a Thai wife, your World Economic Forum masters have decreed that humans need to stop eating rice in order to save the planet.
Given your repeated denials of being a hypocrite, you have of course ordered your wife to switch to Weetbix.

Except you haven't have you, you weak hypocrite.
You allow her to keep stuffing her mouth with rice, don't you?

You're gonna kill us all you selfish bastard.

[Uncle fester]

Meat, you moron, not rice.

[C69]

Meat, you moron, not rice.

It was a clear slur

[Guy Smiley]

You guys haven't encountered convoluted before?

He's one of ours... a MAGA loving Kiwi ...

Umm, you missed out 'climate change denier'.
Speaking of which, given you have a Thai wife, your World Economic Forum masters have decreed that humans need to stop eating rice in order to save the planet.
Given your repeated denials of being a hypocrite, you have of course ordered your wife to switch to Weetbix.

Except you haven't have you, you weak hypocrite.
You allow her to keep stuffing her mouth with rice, don't you?

You're gonna kill us all you selfish bastard.

I saw this post.

It's not worth replying directly to.

You are clearly unwell.

[Calculon]

US government and MIC is always a common denominator. In virtually all conflict throughout the world they are involved on some level, egging stuff on or selling arms to one or both sides.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that since the West helped overthrew the democratically Ukrainian Gov in 2014 and the ensuing chaos that we're actually the bad guys. Again.

You might be onto something. For starters who sells most of the arms in the world?

Nice demonstration of the horseshoe theory

[Hugo]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that since the West helped overthrew the democratically Ukrainian Gov in 2014 and the ensuing chaos that we're actually the bad guys. Again.

You might be onto something. For starters who sells most of the arms in the world?

Nice demonstration of the horseshoe theory

Horseshoe theory or not, whichever way you look at when it comes to civil war in Syria, airstrikes in Libya, Gaza, Iraq there is one common denominator. You'd can't help but notice these things. The US is the number one supplier of arms to the Middle East and Saudi Arabia is actually its biggest customer, not just in the ME but in all of the world.

War is very profitable for the US MIC.

[Hugo]

Also, Im not sure horseshoe theory has much merit. There are going to be times that right wingers and left wingers agree on things and don't conform to the centrist consensus.

A right winger might oppose funding or supporting a war based on a desire to trim govt spending. A lefty might oppose the same thing but on the grounds that they reflexively oppose military intervention.

Different reasons, both valid.

[Sandstorm]

Also, Im not sure horseshoe theory has much merit. There are going to be times that right wingers and left wingers agree on things and don't conform to the centrist consensus.

A right winger might oppose funding or supporting a war based on a desire to trim govt spending. A lefty might oppose the same thing but on the grounds that they reflexively oppose military intervention.

Different reasons, both valid.

Yeah, that calm logic and good sense isn't welcome here mate.

[David in Gwent]

You might be onto something. For starters who sells most of the arms in the world?

Nice demonstration of the horseshoe theory

Horseshoe theory or not, whichever way you look at when it comes to civil war in Syria, airstrikes in Libya, Gaza, Iraq there is one common denominator. You'd can't help but notice these things. The US is the number one supplier of arms to the Middle East and Saudi Arabia is actually its biggest customer, not just in the ME but in all of the world.

War is very profitable for the US MIC.

Personally I'd remove Syria from that list. They wanted to get it going but they didn't.

[Calculon]

Also, Im not sure horseshoe theory has much merit. There are going to be times that right wingers and left wingers agree on things and don't conform to the centrist consensus.

A right winger might oppose funding or supporting a war based on a desire to trim govt spending. A lefty might oppose the same thing but on the grounds that they reflexively oppose military intervention.

Different reasons, both valid.

Yeah but many left wingers oppose government spending on military aid because they think the funds that could be used to solve domestic problems, which is actually the same view as MAGA. Specifically regarding DACs nonsense comment on Ukraine, that 2014 Euromaidan protest movement was a western (US) backed coup, that’s exactly mirrored by those on the left, which you seem to agree with. There’s pretty clear ideological alignment between the left and right when it comes to Ukraine.

Maybe less so when it comes to the war in Gaza but both MAGA and many on the pro-Palestinian side have anti-Semitic views that are informed by the same conspiracy theories.

[David in Gwent]

Also, Im not sure horseshoe theory has much merit. There are going to be times that right wingers and left wingers agree on things and don't conform to the centrist consensus.

A right winger might oppose funding or supporting a war based on a desire to trim govt spending. A lefty might oppose the same thing but on the grounds that they reflexively oppose military intervention.

Different reasons, both valid.

Yeah but many left wingers oppose government spending on the military because they think the funds that could be used to solve domestic problems, which is actually the same view as MAGA. Specifically regarding DACs nonsense comment on Ukraine, that 2014 Euromaidan protest movement was a western (US) backed coup, that’s exactly mirrored by those on the left, which you seem to agree with. There’s pretty clear ideological alignment between the left and right when it comes to Ukraine.

Maybe less so when it comes to the war in Gaza but both MAGA and many on the pro-Palestinian side have anti-Semitic views that are informed by the same conspiracy theories.

Excellent word salad. The Left in the UK are the anti-semitics.

[David in Gwent]

Specifically regarding DACs nonsense comment on Ukraine, that 2014 Euromaidan protest movement was a western (US) backed coup

There was a regime change, followed by a localised war now followed by a National war and you think the West had nothing to do with.

Maybe you're right, the West doesn't get involved in Regime changes..........

[Calculon]

I didn’t mention the left in the UK with regards to antisemitism.

I suspect your reasons for supporting Israel are similar to mine but you are also have some “interesting” views on covid vaccines, Ukraine supplying weapons to Hamas and likely other things which I think are nonsense and not worth engaging you on. So have a nice day.

[David in Gwent]

I didn’t mention the left in the UK with regards to antisemitism.

I suspect your reasons for supporting Israel are similar to mine but you are also have some “interesting” views on covid vaccines, Ukraine supplying weapons to Hamas and likely other things which I think are nonsense and not worth engaging you on. So have a nice day.

I don't support Israel, I'm just aware of what Hamas are and that they should be removed.

I didn't say that Ukraine supplied weapons to Hamas, there is no doubt that munitions have gone missing from Ukrainian stores and ended up on the black market.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

Run along, the only way you could cope would be with personal insults anyway.

[MungoMan]

Industrial Military Complex.

Yeah nah. The word order = military industrial complex.

[David in Gwent]

Industrial Military Complex.

Yeah nah. The word order = military industrial complex.

Indeed.

[Slick]

I didn’t mention the left in the UK with regards to antisemitism.

I suspect your reasons for supporting Israel are similar to mine but you are also have some “interesting” views on covid vaccines, Ukraine supplying weapons to Hamas and likely other things which I think are nonsense and not worth engaging you on. So have a nice day.

I don't support Israel, I'm just aware of what Hamas are and that they should be removed.

I didn't say that Ukraine supplied weapons to Hamas, there is no doubt that munitions have gone missing from Ukrainian stores and ended up on the black market.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

Run along, the only way you could cope would be with personal insults anyway.

Chris, even Calculon thinks you're a loon.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

You are literally the only person that ever brings it up, and almost daily.

[David in Gwent]

I didn’t mention the left in the UK with regards to antisemitism.

I suspect your reasons for supporting Israel are similar to mine but you are also have some “interesting” views on covid vaccines, Ukraine supplying weapons to Hamas and likely other things which I think are nonsense and not worth engaging you on. So have a nice day.

I don't support Israel, I'm just aware of what Hamas are and that they should be removed.

I didn't say that Ukraine supplied weapons to Hamas, there is no doubt that munitions have gone missing from Ukrainian stores and ended up on the black market.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

Run along, the only way you could cope would be with personal insults anyway.

Chris, even Calculon thinks you're a loon.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

You are literally the only person that ever brings it up, and almost daily.

It's David.

[Slick]

I don't support Israel, I'm just aware of what Hamas are and that they should be removed.

I didn't say that Ukraine supplied weapons to Hamas, there is no doubt that munitions have gone missing from Ukrainian stores and ended up on the black market.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

Run along, the only way you could cope would be with personal insults anyway.

Chris, even Calculon thinks you're a loon.

My views on the CV was that it's none of my business if you have one, as it's none of yours if I don't have one.

You are literally the only person that ever brings it up, and almost daily.

It's David.

Sorry, I was thinking of your favourite Muslim prophet

[David in Gwent]

That would be Jesus, not Chris.

[Hugo]

. Yeah but many left wingers oppose government spending on military aid because they think the funds that could be used to solve domestic problems, which is actually the same view as MAGA.

War is an incredible waste of resources when there are domestic needs where that money could be spent though - hospitals, schools, roads, infrastructure and the like. If both the left and the right land on that understanding (however they get there) I'd say they are onto something.

The reason why MAGA might have arrived at that viewpoint is that trillions was spent on the war on terror whilst the standard of living declined for many Americans from 2001 to 2016, along these lines: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... ife-report

[Hugo]

Oh and the biggest scam is when governments who have pushed austerity measures (and plead poverty and the need for belt tightening) magically find money for military aid.

[David in Gwent]

The language used by the Left is pretty insane.

By simply labelling 10s of millions of Americans who simply want a safe and productive America with a slur like "MAGA" tells us all we need to know.

That being you're probably a privileged Socialist Commie Twat and you look down on people.

[Hugo]

The language used by the Left is pretty insane.

By simply labelling 10s of millions of Americans who simply want a safe and productive America with a slur like "MAGA" tells us all we need to know.

That being you're probably a privileged Socialist Commie Twat and you look down on people.

That aimed at me?

[David in Gwent]

That Caclulon chap.