The one and only UK 2024 election thread - July 4

[lemonhead]

I chose not to watch because it's not real. Whatever happens the Toryshitegraph will say the ex-banker/hedgefund guy or whatever he was won the debate and the Guardian will say otherwise, the public opinion on it will be decided by the reach of the media and who they support.

The one thing I'm sure of is that we can all look back on the last 14 years and it would take some sort of liar to say that it's been a positive time for the UK.

Grauniad to be fair is the only paper I can recall that switched allegiances over the last 20 years in endorsing the next government. Also currently calling the 'debate' for Sunak btw.

It matters not a jot. Sunak was just making shit up and not being taken to task to he did it again and again fair play.
Starmer was too quiet, but it's very early days

Ah, no one cares.

Tonight might well save an MP's seat or win another few, but this election's largely priced in.

[David in Gwent]

The escalation is not obvious.

2 MPs being murdered is awful and massively concerning, but when the perpetrators are a conspiracy-theory obsessed white supremacist and an ISIS enthusiast any link between their actions and random members of the public very occasionally tossing food or drink at a politician comes across as tenuous at best.

Incidents involving food or drink from the last 20 years are relevant insofar as they demonstrate how incredibly rarely they occur and that not a one of them inspired a spate of similar or worse in anything like an immediate time frame. We're on about one every few years. Like I said in another post, the politicians have greater odds of being hit by a bus.

Just be honest and not disingenuous, you don't mind politicians being assaulted as long as you don't like them.

Says the MAGA fan.

I support Trump over Biden, you'd have to be addicted to idiocy if you don't feel the same.

If only you could see that you're now part of the establishment that you once hated and fought against.

[C69]

Just be honest and not disingenuous, you don't mind politicians being assaulted as long as you don't like them.

Says the MAGA fan.

I support Trump over Biden, you'd have to be addicted to idiocy if you don't feel the same.

If only you could see that you're now part of the establishment that you once hated and fought against.

Lol please give us your analysis on Sefton.

[Tichtheid]

Dire stuff. Sunak is done, wonder how long it will take Labour to implode in government

FFS, you surely can't want that?

No reasonable person would think there will be an opposition party fit to take over any time soon, the Tories are going to be decimated - would you want the worst of all cases Milk Shake Farage as PM?

[Tichtheid]

Says the MAGA fan.

I support Trump over Biden, you'd have to be addicted to idiocy if you don't feel the same.

If only you could see that you're now part of the establishment that you once hated and fought against.

Lol please give us your analysis on Sefton.

He comes on here to attack the people on the bored rather than to make a positive point - fuck him, he's not worth the electrons it takes to post a message

[TedMaul]

I support Trump over Biden, you'd have to be addicted to idiocy if you don't feel the same.

If only you could see that you're now part of the establishment that you once hated and fought against.

Lol please give us your analysis on Sefton.

He comes on here to attack the people on the bored rather than to make a positive point - fuck him, he's not worth the electrons it takes to post a message

It’s a woman from Clacton. 100%

[Paddington Bear]

Dire stuff. Sunak is done, wonder how long it will take Labour to implode in government

FFS, you surely can't want that?

No reasonable person would think there will be an opposition party fit to take over any time soon, the Tories are going to be decimated - would you want the worst of all cases Milk Shake Farage as PM?

I didn’t say I want it, but I think it’s a viable thing that could happen. Starmer always underwhelms

[C69]

Dire stuff. Sunak is done, wonder how long it will take Labour to implode in government

FFS, you surely can't want that?

No reasonable person would think there will be an opposition party fit to take over any time soon, the Tories are going to be decimated - would you want the worst of all cases Milk Shake Farage as PM?

Tbh I have noticed a real change in Sefton since he moved to the seaside. The lovely nearby Parks and leafy tree lined Georgian and Victorian houses have made him soft and espousing middle class values

[Tichtheid]

Dire stuff. Sunak is done, wonder how long it will take Labour to implode in government

FFS, you surely can't want that?

No reasonable person would think there will be an opposition party fit to take over any time soon, the Tories are going to be decimated - would you want the worst of all cases Milk Shake Farage as PM?

I didn’t say I want it, but I think it’s a viable thing that could happen. Starmer always underwhelms

You didn't say it explicitly, but forgive me I think your posting history is more sympathetic to the Tories than most here.

There is one choice at the next election for PM, Starmer or Sunak (I keep getting an autocorrect of Sunk for Sunak)
After that it's going to be some outlier like Truss back in charge for the Tories and the racist loons will go to Reform - that is your real world choice.

I would think you'd be better off hoping Starmer's government doesn't implode.

[Tichtheid]

Dire stuff. Sunak is done, wonder how long it will take Labour to implode in government

FFS, you surely can't want that?

No reasonable person would think there will be an opposition party fit to take over any time soon, the Tories are going to be decimated - would you want the worst of all cases Milk Shake Farage as PM?

Tbh I have noticed a real change in Sefton since he moved to the seaside. The lovely nearby Parks and leafy tree lined Georgian and Victorian houses have made him soft and espousing middle class values

It wasn't Sefton I referred to in my previous post

[_Os_]

Hard to know what to make of that. I do think part of the problem with UK politics is people getting sucked in by smooth talking charismatic con men, they seem to deeply impress people. How they talk in an artificial environment doesn't say much about how they'll govern, especially if they're avoiding going into depth about their plans so they can't be attacked.

Didn't think Sunak put a glove on Starmer though, "you have unfunded big plans ... you have no big plans" didn't really work, nor did "Labour will raise taxes ... the Tories definitely won't raise taxes like we already have", or "national service ... please don't laugh audience".

Sunak would be eaten alive by a Blair level showman.

[Paddington Bear]

FFS, you surely can't want that?

No reasonable person would think there will be an opposition party fit to take over any time soon, the Tories are going to be decimated - would you want the worst of all cases Milk Shake Farage as PM?

I didn’t say I want it, but I think it’s a viable thing that could happen. Starmer always underwhelms

You didn't say it explicitly, but forgive me I think your posting history is more sympathetic to the Tories than most here.

There is one choice at the next election for PM, Starmer or Sunak (I keep getting an autocorrect of Sunk for Sunak)
After that it's going to be some outlier like Truss back in charge for the Tories and the racist loons will go to Reform - that is your real world choice.

I would think you'd be better off hoping Starmer's government doesn't implode.

Being on the centre right (and explicitly wanting this government out) and wanting a PM Farage are very different things.

[Tichtheid]

I didn’t say I want it, but I think it’s a viable thing that could happen. Starmer always underwhelms

You didn't say it explicitly, but forgive me I think your posting history is more sympathetic to the Tories than most here.

There is one choice at the next election for PM, Starmer or Sunak (I keep getting an autocorrect of Sunk for Sunak)
After that it's going to be some outlier like Truss back in charge for the Tories and the racist loons will go to Reform - that is your real world choice.

I would think you'd be better off hoping Starmer's government doesn't implode.

Being on the centre right (and explicitly wanting this government out) and wanting a PM Farage are very different things.

They might be different things, but I was talking about the reality of what will be on offer over the course of the next parliament.

If you're hoping for Starmer to fail, well, just be careful what you wish for.

[Paddington Bear]

You didn't say it explicitly, but forgive me I think your posting history is more sympathetic to the Tories than most here.

There is one choice at the next election for PM, Starmer or Sunak (I keep getting an autocorrect of Sunk for Sunak)
After that it's going to be some outlier like Truss back in charge for the Tories and the racist loons will go to Reform - that is your real world choice.

I would think you'd be better off hoping Starmer's government doesn't implode.

Being on the centre right (and explicitly wanting this government out) and wanting a PM Farage are very different things.

They might be different things, but I was talking about the reality of what will be on offer over the course of the next parliament.

If you're hoping for Starmer to fail, well, just be careful what you wish for.

At no point have I said I hope he fails. I think he’ll fail, that’s different

[_Os_]

Starmer did have one line at the end though: "do you want to wake up on July the 5th with 5 more years of the Tories".

That's the sort of line you use to squeeze voters thinking of voting for the Greens or Lib Dems where they can't win.

[Tichtheid]

Being on the centre right (and explicitly wanting this government out) and wanting a PM Farage are very different things.

They might be different things, but I was talking about the reality of what will be on offer over the course of the next parliament.

If you're hoping for Starmer to fail, well, just be careful what you wish for.

At no point have I said I hope he fails. I think he’ll fail, that’s different

Of course it is

[Raggs]

Only clip of the debate I've seen is starmer calling sunak a prick. That's good enough for me.

[_Os_]

A half hour interview with each, conducted by someone who actually tries to examine what their plans are, no studio audience. Would've been much better.

"You have 45 seconds to explain your entire policy on NHS/climate change/immigration" didn't work. On second thoughts, Sunak's strategy of just repeating the same soundbite maybe was the better choice, weird because it was robotic and he didn't land anything on Starmer. But he also managed to repeat "Labour will raise taxes" so often, maybe that's all anyone remembers. The format was aiming more at being an entertainment product, maybe Sunak's Tik Tok length nonsense is the way to go.

Very odd, not sure what to make of it at all. "You have talked for longer than 30 seconds on climate change, that's enough".

[petej]

A half hour interview with each, conducted by someone who actually tries to examine what their plans are, no studio audience. Would've been much better.

"You have 45 seconds to explain your entire policy on NHS/climate change/immigration" didn't work. On second thoughts, Sunak's strategy of just repeating the same soundbite maybe was the better choice, weird because it was robotic and he didn't land anything on Starmer. But he also managed to repeat "Labour will raise taxes" so often, maybe that's all anyone remembers. The format was aiming more at being an entertainment product, maybe Sunak's Tik Tok length nonsense is the way to go.

Very odd, not sure what to make of it at all. "You have talked for longer than 30 seconds on climate change, that's enough".

It is just vapid bullshit.

Performing well in these debates and being good at actually running things or making stuff work are very different things, therefore, the debate tells you nothing interesting.

[lemonhead]

Because it's not a debate

Put a reputable TMO on each mic and cut the feed every time they avoid a direct answer to a simple question. Their opponent then gets airtime to answer in turn. Sorted.

[Paddington Bear]

Has to be an argument for just sitting them both at a table and getting them to discuss policy for a couple of hours. Moderator was worse than useless as they generally tend to be. Whether they’d engage with a proper discussion who knows, but even if they’d wanted to they couldn’t have done under yesterday’s format. Oh, and get rid of the audience

[SaintK]

An uninspiring no score draw!!!!

[vball]

I am not bothering much with any of it. I live in the Highlands and the SNP (Drew Henry) has a large majority. Not much chance of him loosing it (SNP 25K, Con 15K and Labour 4K)
So I therefore have very little skin in the game.
I find it rather poor the mess the Tories have got themselves into and I can see why people may think about voting Labour even though it would be abhorrent to most of them. Perhaps Reform but I think we need to see more of their policies.

[Insane_Homer]

sunak_lies.jpg (78.83 KiB) Viewed 360 times

[Slick]

sunak_lies.jpg

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

[fishfoodie]

An uninspiring no score draw!!!!

But Labour won the first leg 15 - 0, so all they have to do is park the bus

[C T]

sunak_lies.jpg

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

For full disclosure, I really want this Tory government out. Further to this I personally tend to lean more to the left than the right. So I am probably biased against Sunak.

That said, just at the weekend I was saying to a friend that I feel a bit sorry for Sunak. He's been left with this rotten, stinking, rank version of the Tory party. I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Anyway, Starmer definitely should have way more firmly and quickly dealt with this £2'000 per person claim.

It is bothering me though that it appears to be the only thing I've heard on the media since the debate. Admittedly I've just been over-hearing rather than sat watching various news outlets. But heard nothing on Sunak saying he'd use private medical care. His petulant attitude appears to be being sold as back to the wall fighting. The laughs when discussions his NHS waiting list reduction claim, and the National Service chuckle.

What is definitely getting stuffed down my throat though is the Starmer £2'000 thing. It wasn't great, at all, but feels like the Tory media machine is at it again.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

sunak_lies.jpg

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

For full disclosure, I really want this Tory government out. Further to this I personally tend to lean more to the left than the right. So I am probably biased against Sunak.

That said, just at the weekend I was saying to a friend that I feel a bit sorry for Sunak. He's been left with this rotten, stinking, rank version of the Tory party. I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Anyway, Starmer definitely should have way more firmly and quickly dealt with this £2'000 per person claim.

It is bothering me though that it appears to be the only thing I've heard on the media since the debate. Admittedly I've just been over-hearing rather than sat watching various news outlets. But heard nothing on Sunak saying he'd use private medical care. His petulant attitude appears to be being sold as back to the wall fighting. The laughs when discussions his NHS waiting list reduction claim, and the National Service chuckle.

What is definitely getting stuffed down my throat though is the Starmer £2'000 thing. It wasn't great, at all, but feels like the Tory media machine is at it again.

Yeah, the headlines are all about the £2,000 tax claim (and you can guarantee that none of the papers will mention the Treasury's letter showing it to be a lie). But it's worrying that Starmer didn't call out the lie, or seemingly get any message across. I'm not sure if it's deliberate, to try and show he's above the petty name-calling (this happened a lot at PMQs with Boris, when Starmer would sit meekly as Boris threw about lie after lie), but I'm not sure it's winning him any votes. Maybe he feels he doesn't need to win more votes, but I worry the Tories and Farage will drive the agenda.

[David in Gwent]

Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.

To court working class voters, Starmer touts his background as the son of a factory floor toolmaker. But peek behind the veil and cracks emerge in this narrative. Turns out his father owned an independent toolmaking firm, devoid of managers lording over factory workers. Already Starmer’s tale feels more scripted than authentic.

During his speech at the TUC, Keir Starmer recounted an anecdote about his father, a skilled toolmaker who allegedly felt looked down upon for working on the factory floor.

During a speech at the TUC, Starmer claimed:

“Despite being a skilled toolmaker throughout his working life, my dad thought people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. He was right about that

Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

[sockwithaticket]

sunak_lies.jpg

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Eh, not sure about that under a first past the post system combined with a whip system.

Ultimately, unless the majority is <10 and the governing party has some rebels, what they want to pass gets passed in the Commons (the Lords is another matter). And the only real holding to account is from the public come election time.

Maybe it's because all I've experienced as an adult is the tail end of New Labour and the last 14 years of shitshow Tory rule, but opposition challenges to the sitting government seem to equate to fuck all. Even if they have valid points to make or whatever, the government of the day will not change course unless something in the press seesm to strike a chord with the public mood and even then mostly what happens is the public mood is ignored and the something happens anyway if it's a thing the government wanted to do or gets quietly buried if it's not.

[C69]

Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.

To court working class voters, Starmer touts his background as the son of a factory floor toolmaker. But peek behind the veil and cracks emerge in this narrative. Turns out his father owned an independent toolmaking firm, devoid of managers lording over factory workers. Already Starmer’s tale feels more scripted than authentic.

During his speech at the TUC, Keir Starmer recounted an anecdote about his father, a skilled toolmaker who allegedly felt looked down upon for working on the factory floor.

During a speech at the TUC, Starmer claimed:

“Despite being a skilled toolmaker throughout his working life, my dad thought people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. He was right about that

Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Whilst I dislike Starmer, you haven't shown in that post why he is a liar.
To suggest the thought of him leading the country as terrifying is quite preposterous.

[Insane_Homer]

the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Snowflake

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.

To court working class voters, Starmer touts his background as the son of a factory floor toolmaker. But peek behind the veil and cracks emerge in this narrative. Turns out his father owned an independent toolmaking firm, devoid of managers lording over factory workers. Already Starmer’s tale feels more scripted than authentic.

During his speech at the TUC, Keir Starmer recounted an anecdote about his father, a skilled toolmaker who allegedly felt looked down upon for working on the factory floor.

During a speech at the TUC, Starmer claimed:

“Despite being a skilled toolmaker throughout his working life, my dad thought people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. He was right about that

Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

[SaintK]

the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Snowflake

You are far too kind. He's a complete and utter cunt.

[David in Gwent]

the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Snowflake

You are far too kind. He's a complete and utter cunt.

Bless.

[David in Gwent]

Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.

To court working class voters, Starmer touts his background as the son of a factory floor toolmaker. But peek behind the veil and cracks emerge in this narrative. Turns out his father owned an independent toolmaking firm, devoid of managers lording over factory workers. Already Starmer’s tale feels more scripted than authentic.

During his speech at the TUC, Keir Starmer recounted an anecdote about his father, a skilled toolmaker who allegedly felt looked down upon for working on the factory floor.

During a speech at the TUC, Starmer claimed:

“Despite being a skilled toolmaker throughout his working life, my dad thought people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. He was right about that

Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

[sockwithaticket]

Any writer putting together a character like DAC would be told to tone it down a bit for the sake of credibility. What an utter loon.

[Insane_Homer]

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The Daily Sceptic is a blog created by British commentator Toby Young

[David in Gwent]

Any writer putting together a character like DAC would be told to tone it down a bit for the sake of credibility. What an utter loon.

Nothing I have ever said could be classed as lunacy. Cuntish, yes, lunacy, no.

You approve of politicians being attacked in the street.

[David in Gwent]

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The Daily Sceptic is a blog created by British commentator Toby Young

The "New Britain Constitution" is a real, actual thing. Why not try to debunk that rather than the blog that's is trying to expose it.