Turning to the Dark Side

[Paddington Bear]

That was disappointing. My whatsapp inbox is a reminder to cheer for anyone but Scotland in the autumn and beyond. Good effort, the better team by some distance won. We can have no complaints. 60 years as a minimum, sigh.

[Blackmac]

That was disappointing. My whatsapp inbox is a reminder to cheer for anyone but Scotland in the autumn and beyond. Good effort, the better team by some distance won. We can have no complaints. 60 years as a minimum, sigh.

I'm afraid I can only apologise for my countrymen. The "viva expania" bullshit has been completely overdone and is boringly unoriginal. It's a shame to see us take such delight in our rivals failures just because we ourselves were so fucking shit.

[Biffer]

Harry Kane curse still standing

[SomersetJock]

That was disappointing. My whatsapp inbox is a reminder to cheer for anyone but Scotland in the autumn and beyond. Good effort, the better team by some distance won. We can have no complaints. 60 years as a minimum, sigh.

I'm afraid I can only apologise for my countrymen. The "viva expania" bullshit has been completely overdone and is boringly unoriginal. It's a shame to see us take such delight in our rivals failures just because we ourselves were so fucking shit.

I can second that, utterly embarrassing some of the boring nonsense being spouted. I’ve even seen a senior Scottish hairless mp acting like an absolute child on X about it. One day they might grow up

[Enzedder]

That was disappointing. My whatsapp inbox is a reminder to cheer for anyone but Scotland in the autumn and beyond. Good effort, the better team by some distance won. We can have no complaints. 60 years as a minimum, sigh.

I'm afraid I can only apologise for my countrymen. The "viva expania" bullshit has been completely overdone and is boringly unoriginal. It's a shame to see us take such delight in our rivals failures just because we ourselves were so fucking shit.

From over here what I see is that they were giving back what had been handed to them in spades from the first game.

[petej]

Harry Kane's form of spursiness remains undefeated.

[Biffer]

That was disappointing. My whatsapp inbox is a reminder to cheer for anyone but Scotland in the autumn and beyond. Good effort, the better team by some distance won. We can have no complaints. 60 years as a minimum, sigh.

I'm afraid I can only apologise for my countrymen. The "viva expania" bullshit has been completely overdone and is boringly unoriginal. It's a shame to see us take such delight in our rivals failures just because we ourselves were so fucking shit.

I can second that, utterly embarrassing some of the boring nonsense being spouted. I’ve even seen a senior Scottish hairless mp acting like an absolute child on X about it. One day they might grow up

I genuinely enjoy all the pearl clutching about it from people who aren’t really football fans.

[Jim Lahey]

I may be wrong but I think the "Anyone But England" vibe in Ireland wasn't so prominent this year, as general interest in the tournament was much lower across the board. Lets be honest, it was largely a shit tournament full of shit games.

But clearly some of the Jocks got carried away with patting themselves on the back for being such great supporters, and their anti English nonsense.

I, as an Ulsterman, really REALLY tried my best to want England yo win, but just couldn't get there in the end. I don't like most of the players (especially Pickford who just seems like a total karnt), I detest the likes of Linekar and Shearer (thought Gary Neville was on the money tbf). But I don't want to be that bitter ABE bellend, and most of the English fans I know are very realistic about their team, and I want them to be happy. Plus Southgate seems like a decent bloke.

So instead of being anti England, I was very agnostic this year. Which is a vast improvement from my immatute younger self.

[JM2K6]

I'm afraid I can only apologise for my countrymen. The "viva expania" bullshit has been completely overdone and is boringly unoriginal. It's a shame to see us take such delight in our rivals failures just because we ourselves were so fucking shit.

I can second that, utterly embarrassing some of the boring nonsense being spouted. I’ve even seen a senior Scottish hairless mp acting like an absolute child on X about it. One day they might grow up

I genuinely enjoy all the pearl clutching about it from people who aren’t really football fans.

Let's not pretend it has anything to do with football

[Biffer]

I can second that, utterly embarrassing some of the boring nonsense being spouted. I’ve even seen a senior Scottish hairless mp acting like an absolute child on X about it. One day they might grow up

I genuinely enjoy all the pearl clutching about it from people who aren’t really football fans.

Let's not pretend it has anything to do with football

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

[Blackmac]

I genuinely enjoy all the pearl clutching about it from people who aren’t really football fans.

Let's not pretend it has anything to do with football

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

I can understand that in respect of genuine team rivalries but no one goes to a England/Scotland game every other week, so I'm not sure how being a regular supporter of a run of the mill Scottish league team gives you any more right to display the outright hatred of England we are seeing. Don't dress it up as anything other than small minded bigotry from most of the people involved.

You can guarantee that most of the morons with the most cringeworthy shit on display never set foot in a football ground.

[Biffer]

Let's not pretend it has anything to do with football

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

I can understand that in respect of genuine team rivalries but no one goes to a England/Scotland game every other week, so I'm not sure how being a regular supporter of a run of the mill Scottish league team gives you any more right to display the outright hatred of England we are seeing. Don't dress it up as anything other than small minded bigotry from most of the people involved.

You can guarantee that most of the morons with the most cringeworthy shit on display never set foot in a football ground.

Yeah, there's a lot of stupid bigotry around, as in every other walk of life. There was a whack of it about when Scotland got knocked out, and I saw video of England fans singing about Scotland over the last weekend, when they had a final to play against Spain. I just thinki all this clutching of pearls is a deliberate over reaction by people desperate to make it something it's (for the most part) not.

[JM2K6]

I genuinely enjoy all the pearl clutching about it from people who aren’t really football fans.

Let's not pretend it has anything to do with football

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

Which football, cricket, and rugby team do you go watch every other week, given your antipathy towards England in every sporting (at least...) context? :-)

[Biffer]

Let's not pretend it has anything to do with football

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

Which football, cricket, and rugby team do you go watch every other week, given your antipathy towards England in every sporting (at least...) context? :-)

My antipathy in rugby is more towards Wales tbh. In cricket I go to watch England test matches. Most of my antipathy in cricket is towards the ICC and how it's completely in hock to India. It's just very easy to wind certain people up.

But the week to week rivalry thing is more about football than anything else. I spent 25 years going to St Johnstone every week and I could never support anything done by Dundee FC. There's a difference between really not wanting a sporting team to win and hating another country. It's a bit sad that people can't see that.

[Dogbert]

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

Which football, cricket, and rugby team do you go watch every other week, given your antipathy towards England in every sporting (at least...) context? :-)

My antipathy in rugby is more towards Wales tbh. In cricket I go to watch England test matches. Most of my antipathy in cricket is towards the ICC and how it's completely in hock to India. It's just very easy to wind certain people up.

But the week to week rivalry thing is more about football than anything else. I spent 25 years going to St Johnstone every week and I could never support anything done by Dundee FC. There's a difference between really not wanting a sporting team to win and hating another country. It's a bit sad that people can't see that.

From what I've seen the 99% of comments have been petty, ill informed, good natured and funny ( or not depending on your point of view ) - but Hatred - nah - unless some one has specific examples .....

[Biffer]

And incidentally, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in this entire thread you can point to which would back up me being particularly nasty about England. 'Jammy cunts' after a 95th minute equaliser is as bad as it gets but a lot of people would agree with that assessment. JMK insinuating that I have some sort of hatred for England generally is pretty poor.

[JM2K6]

Which football, cricket, and rugby team do you go watch every other week, given your antipathy towards England in every sporting (at least...) context? :-)

My antipathy in rugby is more towards Wales tbh. In cricket I go to watch England test matches. Most of my antipathy in cricket is towards the ICC and how it's completely in hock to India. It's just very easy to wind certain people up.

But the week to week rivalry thing is more about football than anything else. I spent 25 years going to St Johnstone every week and I could never support anything done by Dundee FC. There's a difference between really not wanting a sporting team to win and hating another country. It's a bit sad that people can't see that.

From what I've seen the 99% of comments have been petty, ill informed, good natured and funny ( or not depending on your point of view ) - but Hatred - nah - unless some one has specific examples .....

You want people to provide examples of the interactions they've had in real life and on twitter?

Listen, I don't want to come across as an overly sensitive type because I genuinely don't care if people are like this, but you are hatstand if you think it's primarily good natured. Not least because most sporting "banter" these days is anything but, and there's zero chance this is just sporting rivalry. It is usually very personal, very gleeful, very bitter. It's nothing new and it doesn't bother me these days because none of my friends are like that, it's very rarely aimed directly at me,and none of it comes as a surprise. England is forever the nation that it's okay to hate, regardless of what actually happens on the pitch and the relative likeability of the team itself, and sport allows people an easy excuse to be cunts.

Buffer, I apologise if I have read too much into a few comments and conflated your views with some of our more aggressively ABE types, but when I see the same old "lucky" and "overhyped" comments along with references to English hooligans, it's an easy mistake to make. Genuinely sorry if I've got that wrong, which seems likely.

[inactionman]

I caught a few of England and Scotland's matches in the pub in Edinburgh, and it's all as you'd expect - most people don't really give too much of a shit about other teams, but there are a handful who seem to be a bit unhinged and vitriolic. Sadly, these tend to be the loudest. It only takes one of these to make it an unpleasant experience.

I've had a couple of drunkards try to start a fight with me in a pub in Porty a few years back after Wales beat England in the 6N, it does happen - and although thankfully rare, it does leave a disproportionate mark.

[Blackmac]

Not pretending. For me it's about rivalry - I never want my team's longstanding rivals to do well. Fundamental part of sport, particularly football. People who complain about that don't understand it because they haven't spent decades going to games every other week.

Which football, cricket, and rugby team do you go watch every other week, given your antipathy towards England in every sporting (at least...) context? :-)

My antipathy in rugby is more towards Wales tbh. In cricket I go to watch England test matches. Most of my antipathy in cricket is towards the ICC and how it's completely in hock to India. It's just very easy to wind certain people up.

But the week to week rivalry thing is more about football than anything else. I spent 25 years going to St Johnstone every week and I could never support anything done by Dundee FC. There's a difference between really not wanting a sporting team to win and hating another country. It's a bit sad that people can't see that.

Everyone can understand a genuine club rivalry but I fail to understand the suggestion that that somehow gives you a greater right/reason for this ridiculous international rivalry. It's a similar tactic to this nationalist bullshit that you are not a true Scot unless you want independence.
The other thing is that this so called rivalry is mainly a figment of our imagination. Alan Shearer summed it up when he said he couldn't understand it because throughout his time Scotland have never really been a genuine rival to England at anything so he had no reason to view us negatively until this ABE shit got totally out of hand and has been escalated from gentle banter to genuinely nasty nationalism. As far as he was concerned England's rivals were Brazil, Germany, Spain etc.

It's been ridiculous watching these pathetic twats fawning over Rodri when a year ago they wanted his blood for suggesting we were a shite team.

[Paddington Bear]

Yeah to clarify - I was referring to being irked by personal contacts of mine going out my way to needle me after England lost last night, from sofas 400 miles away. As JMK alludes to, it’s dressed up as banter but is nothing really of the sort, and if I’d taken it poorly I’m the bad guy - the English bloke with shite patter who can’t get that direct insults to his country is just banter.

More than happy to take a joke about England, and I do not consider Scots to be under any obligation to support us, but that is not really what’s been going on here.

[Blackmac]

And incidentally, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in this entire thread you can point to which would back up me being particularly nasty about England. 'Jammy cunts' after a 95th minute equaliser is as bad as it gets but a lot of people would agree with that assessment. JMK insinuating that I have some sort of hatred for England generally is pretty poor.

Mate, I don't think anyone has directly criticised you for anything. Nothing I have said was directed at you or anything said on this thread. I myself had a light hearted dig in the first weeks. It's just a general observation about some of the behaviour we are seeing. The post from Stephen Flynn for example and the front page of The National at the weekend and the behaviour of the horrible wee Cnut Compston.

[Biffer]

And incidentally, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in this entire thread you can point to which would back up me being particularly nasty about England. 'Jammy cunts' after a 95th minute equaliser is as bad as it gets but a lot of people would agree with that assessment. JMK insinuating that I have some sort of hatred for England generally is pretty poor.

Mate, I don't think anyone has directly criticised you for anything. Nothing I have said was directed at you or anything said on this thread. I myself had a light hearted dig in the first weeks. It's just a general observation about some of the behaviour we are seeing. The post from Stephen Flynn for example and the front page of The National at the weekend and the behaviour of the horrible wee Cnut Compston.

JMK has

[Dogbert]

[charltom]

Which football, cricket, and rugby team do you go watch every other week, given your antipathy towards England in every sporting (at least...) context? :-)

My antipathy in rugby is more towards Wales tbh. In cricket I go to watch England test matches. Most of my antipathy in cricket is towards the ICC and how it's completely in hock to India. It's just very easy to wind certain people up.

But the week to week rivalry thing is more about football than anything else. I spent 25 years going to St Johnstone every week and I could never support anything done by Dundee FC. There's a difference between really not wanting a sporting team to win and hating another country. It's a bit sad that people can't see that.

Everyone can understand a genuine club rivalry but I fail to understand the suggestion that that somehow gives you a greater right/reason for this ridiculous international rivalry. It's a similar tactic to this nationalist bullshit that you are not a true Scot unless you want independence.
The other thing is that this so called rivalry is mainly a figment of our imagination. Alan Shearer summed it up when he said he couldn't understand it because throughout his time Scotland have never really been a genuine rival to England at anything so he had no reason to view us negatively until this ABE shit got totally out of hand and has been escalated from gentle banter to genuinely nasty nationalism. As far as he was concerned England's rivals were Brazil, Germany, Spain etc.

This is part of the issue. I know from a number of contacts in the relevant countries that Brazilians, Germans and Spaniards do not generally consider England to be a main rival, but Alan Shearer (like many English pundits) thinks they are. Like lots of schoolchildren, they think England have amaaaaazing players compared with most other countries, simply because they are more familiar with them. It's that semi-informed arrogance that winds others up.

Now, they do have some good players, and they did make it to the Euro 2024 (and 2020) Final, but they're still not (yet) all that. I'll be happy to see it when (if) they are in a couple of years.

[Paddington Bear]

Who on earth in England has ever considered Brazil or Spain to be rivals?!?!

And on unreciprocated rivalries, those in glass houses should not throw stones!

[inactionman]

Who on earth in England has ever considered Brazil or Spain to be rivals?!?!

And on unreciprocated rivalries, those in glass houses should not throw stones!

I'd say we've had good competitions with them in tournaments, but what exactly is meant by rivalry?

Germany-Netherlands seem to have one, and maybe Argentina and Brazil, not sure England really have an equivalent. It doesn't make much sense to me at international level, partly as we don't play anyone frequently enough to really generate one.

[Biffer]

My antipathy in rugby is more towards Wales tbh. In cricket I go to watch England test matches. Most of my antipathy in cricket is towards the ICC and how it's completely in hock to India. It's just very easy to wind certain people up.

But the week to week rivalry thing is more about football than anything else. I spent 25 years going to St Johnstone every week and I could never support anything done by Dundee FC. There's a difference between really not wanting a sporting team to win and hating another country. It's a bit sad that people can't see that.

Everyone can understand a genuine club rivalry but I fail to understand the suggestion that that somehow gives you a greater right/reason for this ridiculous international rivalry. It's a similar tactic to this nationalist bullshit that you are not a true Scot unless you want independence.
The other thing is that this so called rivalry is mainly a figment of our imagination. Alan Shearer summed it up when he said he couldn't understand it because throughout his time Scotland have never really been a genuine rival to England at anything so he had no reason to view us negatively until this ABE shit got totally out of hand and has been escalated from gentle banter to genuinely nasty nationalism. As far as he was concerned England's rivals were Brazil, Germany, Spain etc.

This is part of the issue. I know from a number of contacts in the relevant countries that Brazilians, Germans and Spaniards do not generally consider England to be a main rival, but Alan Shearer (like many English pundits) thinks they are. Like lots of schoolchildren, they think England have amaaaaazing players compared with most other countries, simply because they are more familiar with them. It's that semi-informed arrogance that winds others up.

Now, they do have some good players, and they did make it to the Euro 2024 (and 2020) Final, but they're still not (yet) all that. I'll be happy to see it when (if) they are in a couple of years.

There is a general feeling in the media and some of the England fans that they should be in the same discussion as Germany, France, Italy and Spain (and Brazil, Argentina globally) in terms of national team status. By that I don’t mean how good is the team right now, but whether they’re considered a ‘big team’ at international tournaments regardless. They really shouldn’t. One major trophy and that nearly sixty years ago. Germany have seven, Italy six, Spain five , France four.

[inactionman]

Oh God. I get this big team nonsense off my spurs mates.

[Hugo]

On an un England related note Spains win yesterday signifies to me a "changing of the guard" in the European football Great Power rankings.

In times past I would have said that Germany and Italy were the Great Powers in European football. Certainly they were the big two when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s. Germany were always at the business end of tournaments and Serie A was the strongest league attracting the best players from around the world - Zico, Platini, Maradona, Van Basten etc.

Now, Spain have won their 4th international title in a little over a decade and France (Paris in particular) are pumping out professional footballers at a rate that is unmatched throughout the continent.

I would say where previously the Germans and Italians were top dogs now Spain & France have usurped their place in the hierachy.

[Biffer]

The National has held its hands up to going too far

[Biffer]

On an un England related note Spains win yesterday signifies to me a "changing of the guard" in the European football Great Power rankings.

In times past I would have said that Germany and Italy were the Great Powers in European football. Certainly they were the big two when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s. Germany were always at the business end of tournaments and Serie A was the strongest league attracting the best players from around the world - Zico, Platini, Maradona, Van Basten etc.

Now, Spain have won their 4th international title in a little over a decade and France (Paris in particular) are pumping out professional footballers at a rate that is unmatched throughout the continent.

I would say where previously the Germans and Italians were top dogs now Spain & France have usurped their place in the hierachy.

Don’t disagree with that, although I thought Germany looked better than people anticipated. We’ll see how they go in World Cup qualifying.

[JM2K6]

And incidentally, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in this entire thread you can point to which would back up me being particularly nasty about England. 'Jammy cunts' after a 95th minute equaliser is as bad as it gets but a lot of people would agree with that assessment. JMK insinuating that I have some sort of hatred for England generally is pretty poor.

Mate, I don't think anyone has directly criticised you for anything. Nothing I have said was directed at you or anything said on this thread. I myself had a light hearted dig in the first weeks. It's just a general observation about some of the behaviour we are seeing. The post from Stephen Flynn for example and the front page of The National at the weekend and the behaviour of the horrible wee Cnut Compston.

JMK has

I suggested you might have an ABE approach (with a hand typed smiley face!) because of a few posts of yours hitting same cliché bingo but I have apologised for reading too much into that and will reiterate the apology for making it seem like I was lumping you in with the nasty cunts, which was definitely not my intent.

[Biffer]

Mate, I don't think anyone has directly criticised you for anything. Nothing I have said was directed at you or anything said on this thread. I myself had a light hearted dig in the first weeks. It's just a general observation about some of the behaviour we are seeing. The post from Stephen Flynn for example and the front page of The National at the weekend and the behaviour of the horrible wee Cnut Compston.

JMK has

I suggested you might have an ABE approach (with a hand typed smiley face!) because of a few posts of yours hitting same cliché bingo but I have apologised for reading too much into that and will reiterate the apology for making it seem like I was lumping you in with the nasty cunts, which was definitely not my intent.

Ok, cheers.

[inactionman]

On an un England related note Spains win yesterday signifies to me a "changing of the guard" in the European football Great Power rankings.

In times past I would have said that Germany and Italy were the Great Powers in European football. Certainly they were the big two when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s. Germany were always at the business end of tournaments and Serie A was the strongest league attracting the best players from around the world - Zico, Platini, Maradona, Van Basten etc.

Now, Spain have won their 4th international title in a little over a decade and France (Paris in particular) are pumping out professional footballers at a rate that is unmatched throughout the continent.

I would say where previously the Germans and Italians were top dogs now Spain & France have usurped their place in the hierachy.

The Netherlands seem to be a bit in the doldrums, but that's been the case for many a year now. They've had some outstanding teams and players in the past.

Interesting that Spain have moved on from their ultra-tedious extreme tiki-taka to something a lot more direct and pacey. Their win in 2012 wasn't an easy watch.

[Hugo]

Whether people in Spain or Brazil perceive England as rivals is pretty hard to gauge.

A very, very large segment of fans of international football only pay attention every two years during major tournaments. In fact many aren't football fans per se they are just big event bandwagon hoppers. Nothing wrong with that at all it's just that I don't think these fans are afficionados as such. In fact by and large I fall into this category. I played football as a kid and was a very passionate fan of it in the past but only really watch England for a month once every two years.

Of those that follow the sport year round who know their onions I'm sure most in Spain and Brazil would at least recognise England as a producer of decent talent if not an elite team. A friend of mine visited the Amazon some years ago and he said the locals were saying Lineker and Shilton to him. I'm pretty sure the likes of Bellingham and Foden are household names in Brazil.

[Paddington Bear]

Whether people in Spain or Brazil perceive England as rivals is pretty hard to gauge.

A very, very large segment of fans of international football only pay attention every two years during major tournaments. In fact many aren't football fans per se they are just big event bandwagon hoppers. Nothing wrong with that at all it's just that I don't think these fans are afficionados as such. In fact by and large I fall into this category. I played football as a kid and was a very passionate fan of it in the past but only really watch England for a month once every two years.

Of those that follow the sport year round who know their onions I'm sure most in Spain and Brazil would at least recognise England as a producer of decent talent if not an elite team. A friend of mine visited the Amazon some years ago and he said the locals were saying Lineker and Shilton to him. I'm pretty sure the likes of Bellingham and Foden are household names in Brazil.

Spain has an undercurrent of Anglophobia in their society which I’m sure makes yesterday sweeter, but I don’t think they’d consider us rivals. To English people Spain is just a holiday destination. Brazil? Can’t think why either side would think of the other at all.

The only two games that will really get England fans going are Germany (to call it unreciprocated is definitely not true, but clearly a bigger thing in England) and Argentina (definitely reciprocated but haven’t played them for yonks).

[Hugo]

Whether people in Spain or Brazil perceive England as rivals is pretty hard to gauge.

A very, very large segment of fans of international football only pay attention every two years during major tournaments. In fact many aren't football fans per se they are just big event bandwagon hoppers. Nothing wrong with that at all it's just that I don't think these fans are afficionados as such. In fact by and large I fall into this category. I played football as a kid and was a very passionate fan of it in the past but only really watch England for a month once every two years.

Of those that follow the sport year round who know their onions I'm sure most in Spain and Brazil would at least recognise England as a producer of decent talent if not an elite team. A friend of mine visited the Amazon some years ago and he said the locals were saying Lineker and Shilton to him. I'm pretty sure the likes of Bellingham and Foden are household names in Brazil.

Spain has an undercurrent of Anglophobia in their society which I’m sure makes yesterday sweeter, but I don’t think they’d consider us rivals. To English people Spain is just a holiday destination. Brazil? Can’t think why either side would think of the other at all.

The only two games that will really get England fans going are Germany (to call it unreciprocated is definitely not true, but clearly a bigger thing in England) and Argentina (definitely reciprocated but haven’t played them for yonks).

I did not know Spain had an Anglophobic element to their society tbh. What is that based on, do you happen to know?

[Hugo]

On an un England related note Spains win yesterday signifies to me a "changing of the guard" in the European football Great Power rankings.

In times past I would have said that Germany and Italy were the Great Powers in European football. Certainly they were the big two when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s. Germany were always at the business end of tournaments and Serie A was the strongest league attracting the best players from around the world - Zico, Platini, Maradona, Van Basten etc.

Now, Spain have won their 4th international title in a little over a decade and France (Paris in particular) are pumping out professional footballers at a rate that is unmatched throughout the continent.

I would say where previously the Germans and Italians were top dogs now Spain & France have usurped their place in the hierachy.

The Netherlands seem to be a bit in the doldrums, but that's been the case for many a year now. They've had some outstanding teams and players in the past.

Interesting that Spain have moved on from their ultra-tedious extreme tiki-taka to something a lot more direct and pacey. Their win in 2012 wasn't an easy watch.

Yeah, Dutch football was in rude health from the late 80s until the early part of the millenium with the likes of Van Basten, Gullit, Bergkamp, Stam, Van Nistelrooy and such. Their starting XI was a match for anyone in the world.

I know they made the world cup final in 2010 and still produce quality players but just not like they did back then.

[Biffer]

Whether people in Spain or Brazil perceive England as rivals is pretty hard to gauge.

A very, very large segment of fans of international football only pay attention every two years during major tournaments. In fact many aren't football fans per se they are just big event bandwagon hoppers. Nothing wrong with that at all it's just that I don't think these fans are afficionados as such. In fact by and large I fall into this category. I played football as a kid and was a very passionate fan of it in the past but only really watch England for a month once every two years.

Of those that follow the sport year round who know their onions I'm sure most in Spain and Brazil would at least recognise England as a producer of decent talent if not an elite team. A friend of mine visited the Amazon some years ago and he said the locals were saying Lineker and Shilton to him. I'm pretty sure the likes of Bellingham and Foden are household names in Brazil.

Spain has an undercurrent of Anglophobia in their society which I’m sure makes yesterday sweeter, but I don’t think they’d consider us rivals. To English people Spain is just a holiday destination. Brazil? Can’t think why either side would think of the other at all.

The only two games that will really get England fans going are Germany (to call it unreciprocated is definitely not true, but clearly a bigger thing in England) and Argentina (definitely reciprocated but haven’t played them for yonks).

I did not know Spain had an Anglophobic element to their society tbh. What is that based on, do you happen to know?

I’d imagine hundreds of years of war, particularly around catholic v Protestant monarchies, and the long standing alliance between UK and Portugal?

[clydecloggie]

On an un England related note Spains win yesterday signifies to me a "changing of the guard" in the European football Great Power rankings.

In times past I would have said that Germany and Italy were the Great Powers in European football. Certainly they were the big two when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s. Germany were always at the business end of tournaments and Serie A was the strongest league attracting the best players from around the world - Zico, Platini, Maradona, Van Basten etc.

Now, Spain have won their 4th international title in a little over a decade and France (Paris in particular) are pumping out professional footballers at a rate that is unmatched throughout the continent.

I would say where previously the Germans and Italians were top dogs now Spain & France have usurped their place in the hierachy.

The Netherlands seem to be a bit in the doldrums, but that's been the case for many a year now. They've had some outstanding teams and players in the past.

Interesting that Spain have moved on from their ultra-tedious extreme tiki-taka to something a lot more direct and pacey. Their win in 2012 wasn't an easy watch.

Yeah, Dutch football was in rude health from the late 80s until the early part of the millenium with the likes of Van Basten, Gullit, Bergkamp, Stam, Van Nistelrooy and such. Their starting XI was a match for anyone in the world.

I know they made the world cup final in 2010 and still produce quality players but just not like they did back then.

the great Dutch teams have always had an undisputedly world-class striker (Cruyff, van Basten, Bergkamp, van Nistelrooy, van Persie, Robben), which they just don't have anymore. High hopes for young Zirkzee but too early to tell if he'll be the next in line.