U20 RWC: South Africa, 29 June to 17 July.

[Torquemada 1420]

Carbonneau again

[Torquemada 1420]

FM. Get Desperes on at FB, and Ferte to SH.

[JM2K6]

Jouer jouer

[Torquemada 1420]

Eng deserved winners. Fra basically have created zero threat bar the chalked off try.

Finally Carbonneau is pulled

[Torquemada 1420]

FM. Get Desperes on at FB, and Ferte to SH.

Too. Late.

[Torquemada 1420]

Game over. Gonna be accused of salty tears etc but this Eng side really is rugby cancer. All brute force and zero craft. Not the stuff to draw spectators to the sport.

It might not have manifest in this game so far, but they've played plenty of rugby in prior games when they've actually been able to hang onto the ball.

Eng 2003. Look good and expansive after having brutalised opponents. Against Ire and Fra, 2 sides still physically inferior but able to compete to some degree, it's been as dull a spectacle as one could imagine.

[JM2K6]

Listening to Stransky commentate almost entirely from a wanting France to win perspective almost makes you forget he earned his stripes playing for the dullest side in living history

[Tichtheid]

Game over. Gonna be accused of salty tears etc but this Eng side really is rugby cancer. All brute force and zero craft. Not the stuff to draw spectators to the sport.

It might not have manifest in this game so far, but they've played plenty of rugby in prior games when they've actually been able to hang onto the ball.

Eng 2003. Look good and expansive after having brutalised opponents. Against Ire and Fra, 2 sides still physically inferior but able to compete to some degree, it's been as dull a spectacle as one could imagine.

I'd take Scotland winning a World Cup with two forty minute long rolling mauls.

[JM2K6]

Extremely interesting decisions being made by the ref in that passage

[JM2K6]

After having a pop at Pollock on the floor, an absolute cheap shot to the head of an England player during that turnover on the line. Yikes.

[Tichtheid]

Well done England, easily the better side today.

I hear ex-players in coms talking about players looking for mismatches, they are usually talking about pace, but I think it's legitimate in rugby to look for power as a mismatch when it is to your advantage. England were beautifully brutal up front.

[JM2K6]

France wait 80 minutes to do something good Lively try. Comical that England didn't get a penalty at the scrum but it literally does not matter, game over and England win the trophy.

Decent second half with fewer mistakes was all that was needed as France were incapable of managing either set piece or the kicking game, and didn't have the skills under defensive pressure to threaten out wide often enough.

Finals are all about winning, but it's a shame we didn't see what this England side can really do.

[OomStruisbaai]

Congrats to England. They were the best team by some distance.

This is a special group. Saw that last year already

[Torquemada 1420]

It might not have manifest in this game so far, but they've played plenty of rugby in prior games when they've actually been able to hang onto the ball.

Eng 2003. Look good and expansive after having brutalised opponents. Against Ire and Fra, 2 sides still physically inferior but able to compete to some degree, it's been as dull a spectacle as one could imagine.

I'd take Scotland winning a World Cup with two forty minute long rolling mauls.

Hah. And that's my cross to bear. The reason I have always been interested in the grade levels (decades now) more than the snrs is precisely because they tend to play with a freedom and a lack of the cynical professionalism of their elders. Can't help feeling Eng have just ruined this level of rugby for good by setting the bar at brute force and pragmatism.

So no, I absolutely have no interest in "winning at all costs". Quite the reverse.

[Torquemada 1420]

France wait 80 minutes to do something good Lively try. Comical that England didn't get a penalty at the scrum but it literally does not matter, game over and England win the trophy.

Decent second half with fewer mistakes was all that was needed as France were incapable of managing either set piece or the kicking game, and didn't have the skills under defensive pressure to threaten out wide often enough.

Finals are all about winning, but it's a shame we didn't see what this England side can really do.

Said wayyyy back on this thread after the NZ game that Fra would have to stay away from scrums and lineouts to have any chance against the likes of Eng. Conditions were probably the final nail as Carbonneau and Reus (by his admission too in Bernol this morning) failed entirely to manage the game. Far too slow which simply allowed Eng's rush defence to suffocate everything out wide.

TBH, no idea how Fra hadn't copped a yellow for the repeated pens at scrum time.

As for your last line, I'm tempted to refer you to the Dark Side thread and point out that's EXACTLY what Eng sides do in any sport. Conservatism always prevails and usually to their own detriment. It's in your nature.

[pjm1]

Torq, not loving that last para - it reads as a bit anti-English (to avoid dropping the R-bomb)?!

Rugby is a multi faceted game and if you expose a significant weakness in one or more of those it can be exploited by a well coached and proficient team.

Turning up without a functioning scrum is going to turn into a weapon for the opposition. Decrying that weapon being used makes a mockery of the complexity of the game, IMO.

We’ve had that used against us in the seniors by SA and more recently (but less comprehensively) by NZ.

A successful rugby team needs to be proficient at all areas of play and excellent at one or two.

[JM2K6]

France wait 80 minutes to do something good Lively try. Comical that England didn't get a penalty at the scrum but it literally does not matter, game over and England win the trophy.

Decent second half with fewer mistakes was all that was needed as France were incapable of managing either set piece or the kicking game, and didn't have the skills under defensive pressure to threaten out wide often enough.

Finals are all about winning, but it's a shame we didn't see what this England side can really do.

Said wayyyy back on this thread after the NZ game that Fra would have to stay away from scrums and lineouts to have any chance against the likes of Eng. Conditions were probably the final nail as Carbonneau and Reus (by his admission too in Bernol this morning) failed entirely to manage the game. Far too slow which simply allowed Eng's rush defence to suffocate everything out wide.

TBH, no idea how Fra hadn't copped a yellow for the repeated pens at scrum time.

As for your last line, I'm tempted to refer you to the Dark Side thread and point out that's EXACTLY what Eng sides do in any sport. Conservatism always prevails and usually to their own detriment. It's in your nature.

I'd be equally tempted to point out it's not remotely true of our other u20 wins. Besides, the complaint isn't that that played conservatively, it's that they made a bucket load of errors especially in the first half and so couldn't get anything going.

[JM2K6]

Eng 2003. Look good and expansive after having brutalised opponents. Against Ire and Fra, 2 sides still physically inferior but able to compete to some degree, it's been as dull a spectacle as one could imagine.

I'd take Scotland winning a World Cup with two forty minute long rolling mauls.

Hah. And that's my cross to bear. The reason I have always been interested in the grade levels (decades now) more than the snrs is precisely because they tend to play with a freedom and a lack of the cynical professionalism of their elders. Can't help feeling Eng have just ruined this level of rugby for good by setting the bar at brute force and pragmatism.

So no, I absolutely have no interest in "winning at all costs". Quite the reverse.

Having absolutely none of that from the French thank you very much

[Torquemada 1420]

Torq, not loving that last para - it reads as a bit anti-English (to avoid dropping the R-bomb)?!

Rugby is a multi faceted game and if you expose a significant weakness in one or more of those it can be exploited by a well coached and proficient team.

Turning up without a functioning scrum is going to turn into a weapon for the opposition. Decrying that weapon being used makes a mockery of the complexity of the game, IMO.

We’ve had that used against us in the seniors by SA and more recently (but less comprehensively) by NZ.

A successful rugby team needs to be proficient at all areas of play and excellent at one or two.

If you want to bend any observation of a national trait into the accusation of racism, then guilty. But I'll stand by the comment. In the 3 key team sports I've had interest/involvement in (rowing is too 1 dimensional to fit) of rugby, football and cricket, English sides have decades of history of conservatism to the extent of regularly being criticised as negative by everyone else. Note I am talking intl level only.
There are exceptions
- football under Robson
- cricket under "Bazball" (very much welcome)
- rugby under........... errr........ nobody

[pjm1]

Torq, not loving that last para - it reads as a bit anti-English (to avoid dropping the R-bomb)?!

Rugby is a multi faceted game and if you expose a significant weakness in one or more of those it can be exploited by a well coached and proficient team.

Turning up without a functioning scrum is going to turn into a weapon for the opposition. Decrying that weapon being used makes a mockery of the complexity of the game, IMO.

We’ve had that used against us in the seniors by SA and more recently (but less comprehensively) by NZ.

A successful rugby team needs to be proficient at all areas of play and excellent at one or two.

If you want to bend any observation of a national trait into the accusation of racism, then guilty. But I'll stand by the comment. In the 3 key team sports I've had interest/involvement in (rowing is too 1 dimensional to fit) of rugby, football and cricket, English sides have decades of history of conservatism to the extent of regularly being criticised as negative by everyone else. Note I am talking intl level only.
There are exceptions
- football under Robson
- cricket under "Bazball" (very much welcome)
- rugby under........... errr........ nobody

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt in not trying to be racist. But you are wrong and over simplifying. Which makes your generalisation “unfortunate” at best.

No bending involved.

[JM2K6]

Torq, not loving that last para - it reads as a bit anti-English (to avoid dropping the R-bomb)?!

Rugby is a multi faceted game and if you expose a significant weakness in one or more of those it can be exploited by a well coached and proficient team.

Turning up without a functioning scrum is going to turn into a weapon for the opposition. Decrying that weapon being used makes a mockery of the complexity of the game, IMO.

We’ve had that used against us in the seniors by SA and more recently (but less comprehensively) by NZ.

A successful rugby team needs to be proficient at all areas of play and excellent at one or two.

If you want to bend any observation of a national trait into the accusation of racism, then guilty. But I'll stand by the comment. In the 3 key team sports I've had interest/involvement in (rowing is too 1 dimensional to fit) of rugby, football and cricket, English sides have decades of history of conservatism to the extent of regularly being criticised as negative by everyone else. Note I am talking intl level only.
There are exceptions
- football under Robson
- cricket under "Bazball" (very much welcome)
- rugby under........... errr........ nobody

Also cricket for the t20 world cup wins and the dominant 50 over side that changed the sport with its attacking approach

England 2003? Less conservative than the sides that won the world cups before and after.

I remember France in 2011. Let's not pretend this is an English thing.

[Biffer]

That England captain has a very Scottish sounding name.

Watch this space.

[SaintK]

That England captain has a very Scottish sounding name.

Watch this space.

What's new
Should imagine the Scottish management have gone through the English squad with a fine toothcomb checking their lineage.
I'd have thought McKopku and MacFasabong would be targets.

[duke]

That England captain has a very Scottish sounding name.

Watch this space.

Finn Sebastian Carnduff

Hmmmmmm

[Biffer]

That England captain has a very Scottish sounding name.

Watch this space.

Finn Sebastian Carnduff

Hmmmmmm

So you're saying two thirds then?

[duke]

That England captain has a very Scottish sounding name.

Watch this space.

Finn Sebastian Carnduff

Hmmmmmm

So you're saying two thirds then?

I’m curious to know what his roots are, born and bred in Leicester but where do his parents hail from?

[SaintK]

Finn Sebastian Carnduff

Hmmmmmm

So you're saying two thirds then?

I’m curious to know what his roots are, born and bred in Leicester but where do his parents hail from?

Wales

[duke]

So you're saying two thirds then?

I’m curious to know what his roots are, born and bred in Leicester but where do his parents hail from?

Wales

Like Ioan Jones - born and bred in Glos

[Niegs]

Final rankings then?