Angry White Men

[epwc]

Seeing as nobody else has started the thread.

For context 80+% of the world doesn't have democracy, rule of law (as we would understand it in the western sense), free education, free health care. So just being a citizen certainly of the UK or pretty much any EC country puts you at a significant advantage, obviously the same goes for NZ, Aus, Canada, the US but I don't know how the education/health systems are funded.

Materially being a citizen of any of these countries means you must be at the very worst in the top 5% of the worlds wealthiest people.

In all of these places being white confers advantages, as does being male.

I know full well that there is a huge amount of anger/resentment whatever you want to call it aimed at some "other", but why?

The reason I used to get into trouble with racists was because I wanted to understand why they were so offended by Pakis, Wogs or whoever else it might be. I'm struggling even more to understand this one, what exactly will make things better for these people?

[Paddington Bear]

I don’t think the ‘lucky to be here’ point is a great one. England has been a comparatively wealthy country since the Middle Ages and things could really quite easily be better than they are. The fact they are worse elsewhere isn’t particularly relevant to that IMO.

Will aim to do a more detailed post when I have time, but a few starting points I’d say to frame this:
- if you are c.40 or under you have been educated and have subsequently begun a working life that is materially exceptionally different to the one experienced by boomers *even for people working at the same company*. I don’t accept that being male or white is such an advantage in this context, as it clearly was 20-30 years ago.
- a lot of the traditional male expectations remain expected despite the widespread societal changes
- if we’re including race in this (and if I’ve read your post correctly you are), you have to factor in that:
1) unlike boomers, younger men almost everywhere will have grown up/been educated etc with at least a reasonable number of non-British people. They’re less of an ‘other’ the younger you get, equally you are more used to positive and negative cultural differences and traits.
2) we are living through a demographic change unprecedented in the history of the British Isles in its scale

[Slick]

Why bring race into it?

[epwc]

Why bring race into it?

Is it not already in it?

All the current action seems to be by white blokes.

[epwc]

And racism is still a live issue in our society:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84jzex9vk8o

[robmatic]

In all of these places being white confers advantages, as does being male.

I think this is indisputable, but these aren't the only axes of privilege or inequality, so we shouldn't be entirely surprised that there is resentment swirling around, even if it is misdirected. There are a lot of people in the UK who might consider themselves disadvantaged based on their social class, family wealth, regional identity, geographical location etc. We don't like to talk openly about class or economic inequality in the UK but these factors are huge in terms of your life opportunities.

I don't consider myself particularly disadvantaged but I am personally sceptical of the framing that automatically makes me, a generic white Northern male, more privileged than my female, Muslim, ethnic minority spouse (who was privately educated in Switzerland).

[robmatic]

- if you are c.40 or under you have been educated and have subsequently begun a working life that is materially exceptionally different to the one experienced by boomers *even for people working at the same company*. I don’t accept that being male or white is such an advantage in this context, as it clearly was 20-30 years ago.

This generational inequality is important. Just think, a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

[epwc]

I don't consider myself particularly disadvantaged but I am personally sceptical of the framing that automatically makes me, a generic white Northern male, more privileged than my female, Muslim, ethnic minority spouse (who was privately educated in Switzerland).

Me too, there are multiple elements that makes a person "succeed", my father did tons better than any of his cohort of mates that he hung around with in the 60s. He wasn't whiter, or more educated, he was more willing to understand and take risk.

So why the anger?

[Paddington Bear]

- if you are c.40 or under you have been educated and have subsequently begun a working life that is materially exceptionally different to the one experienced by boomers *even for people working at the same company*. I don’t accept that being male or white is such an advantage in this context, as it clearly was 20-30 years ago.

This generational inequality is important. Just think, a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

Yes, and at my primary school I was pretty unusual in having a Mum who worked, I reckon there aren’t many high street accountants (like one of my closest mate’s Dad) who can support three kids, two cars, a detached house and a housewife now. These are massive massive changes that are a bit like a high pitched whistle - you can only hear them if you’re under a certain age.

[fishfoodie]

I don't consider myself particularly disadvantaged but I am personally sceptical of the framing that automatically makes me, a generic white Northern male, more privileged than my female, Muslim, ethnic minority spouse (who was privately educated in Switzerland).

Me too, there are multiple elements that makes a person "succeed", my father did tons better than any of his cohort of mates that he hung around with in the 60s. He wasn't whiter, or more educated, he was more willing to understand and take risk.

So why the anger?

Regret.

How many of these AWM made mistakes like leaving school early, or an early criminal convictio , & won't accept responsibility now ?

[epwc]

a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

They also didn't go on as many expensive holidays, eat out as much, pay for multiple streaming services, iphones, deliveroo, tattoos everywhere and so on....

[robmatic]

a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

They also didn't go on as many expensive holidays, eat out as much, pay for multiple streaming services, iphones, deliveroo, tattoos everywhere and so on....

Or have to pay a graduate tax. Sorry, 'student loan'.

You have to forego a lot of package holidays in Spain before you accrue that £50k house deposit from your £25k per annum graduate salary.

[Tichtheid]

There's been a concerted effort to blame sections of the community for the circumstances we each find ourselves in, it was the recipients of benefits, it was the EU migrants stealing our jobs, it was the non-EU migrants stealing everything else.

It handily diverted attention away from the cause of the global financial meltdown that happened when the fetters were taken off banking and Capitalism. Blaming migrants from outside the EU handily kept attention away from foreign policy going back centuries.
It's also taking attention away from the tsunami (pun intended) of migration that's coming due to climate change.

[Tichtheid]

I haven't had time to read this properly myself, but I'll link to it so I can find it and read it properly later

TUC report, Still rigged: racism in the UK labour market
https://www.tuc.org.uk/research-analysi ... our-market

[epwc]

You have to forego a lot of package holidays in Spain before you accrue that £50k house deposit from your £25k per annum graduate salary.

You can be earning a lot more than that without going to uni, snobbery is pushing us into a position where everyone has to have a degree or they're worthless

[Paddington Bear]

a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

They also didn't go on as many expensive holidays, eat out as much, pay for multiple streaming services, iphones, deliveroo, tattoos everywhere and so on....

Lots of this is rubbish though. Going to Spain etc is cheap (and people who bought homes cheaper 100% went on holidays), as are streaming services. A smartphone is a prerequisite to modern life. To buy a half decent home in SE England you’re talking £500,000. Minimum deposit? £50,000. Given you would need a combined income of over £100,000 to get a mortgage with that deposit you are more realistically talking a £100,000 deposit. This just isn’t achievable regardless of how miserable you make your life by scrimping.

[epwc]

Lots of this is rubbish though. Going to Spain etc is cheap (and people who bought homes cheaper 100% went on holidays), as are streaming services. A smartphone is a prerequisite to modern life. To buy a half decent home in SE England you’re talking £500,000. Minimum deposit? £50,000. Given you would need a combined income of over £100,000 to get a mortgage with that deposit you are more realistically talking a £100,000 deposit. This just isn’t achievable regardless of how miserable you make your life by scrimping.

You're right %age of income spent on housing is a lot more than it used to be:

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/housing ... quality-uk

[epwc]

The graph here illustrates it well:

https://www.schroders.com/en-gb/uk/indi ... in-the-uk/

[Uncle fester]

And racism is still a live issue in our society:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84jzex9vk8o

Came here to post that as it's relevant to the "send them to the army" line that came up in the other thread

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/art ... dApp_Other

[Niegs]

I know full well that there is a huge amount of anger/resentment whatever you want to call it aimed at some "other", but why?

I wrote an essay, but deleted it for being too wordy. I think I can sum it up by saying a lot of white dudes who are struggling to achieve the 'dream' are pinning the blame on the easiest/cheapest target - 'minorities', 'immigrants', 'women' - rather than taking responsibility / initiative to make things better for themselves. But writing that also reminded me of the amount of people I grew up with / worked with in schools (largely white and rural/small town) who did themselves no favours by acting up / cruising through school. Finding now that people who worked hard, or who were historically disadvantaged despite working hard, are getting the chance they deserve.

[Niegs]

And racism is still a live issue in our society:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84jzex9vk8o

Came here to post that as it's relevant to the "send them to the army" line that came up in the other thread

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/art ... dApp_Other

That's disgusting! I want to believe things are gradually getting better but really makes me wonder when I read things like that. Swastikas and Confederate flags, ffs?!

When addressing bullying in schools, we found a big part of the problem was the amount of students who - when discussing the issue in general - disapproved of the practice and empathized with the bully but did absolutely nothing to stop / protect. I wonder how many in that woman's workplace were too cowardly / apathetic / thought it was innocent 'banter' to defend her and call out what, I hope, were a loud and brash minority of racist c-units?

[Hugo]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

[Torquemada 1420]

The reason I used to get into trouble with racists was because I wanted to understand why they were so offended by Pakis, Wogs or whoever else it might be. I'm struggling even more to understand this one, what exactly will make things better for these people?

I often give offence

Nothing is the answer. Their anger is rooted in their own inferiority. Chuck all the wogs out and they'd find someone or something else to rail against.

Pretty much summed up in 1979 by SLF's White Noise.

[epwc]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It’s very true that white dominated countries are the best run but that’s because they pillaged the rest of the world to generate the wealth necessary to achieve that.

I absolutely do not believe that white people are by default racist, it’s not about the bulk of white people, it’s about the minority that are kicking off right now

[epwc]

I often give offence

Nothing is the answer. Their anger is rooted in their own inferiority. Chuck all the wogs out and they'd find someone or something else to rail against.

Pretty much summed up in 1979 by SLF's White Noise.

Yep, SLF were a great band that spoke a lot of truth

[Calculon]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It’s very true that white dominated countries are the best run but that’s because they pillaged the rest of the world to generate the wealth necessary to achieve that.

I absolutely do not believe that white people are by default racist, it’s not about the bulk of white people, it’s about the minority that are kicking off right now

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

[epwc]

Switzerland and pillaged wealth, seriously? That’s what the place is built on

[Calculon]

The famously neutral Swiss haven't gone pillaging since
the Swabian war.

[Paddington Bear]

The idea that Britain’s wealth was built on pillage is, whilst currently popular, historically illiterate. Britain was able to build an empire because it *was already* wealthy. Even during the imperial period it was coal that drove the engine.

[epwc]

The famously neutral Swiss haven't gone pillaging since
the Swabian war.

No but they’ve taken everyone else’s pillaged wealth

[Paddington Bear]

OECD report says 43% of Brits aged 20-29 live with their parents. Relevant data point I’d say for life having got shitter

[Uncle fester]

That's pretty typical for discriminatory behaviour in the workplace. They are not all racists but the ones who aren't don't speak up for various reasons and the guys who are supposed to be setting the tone "protect" the organisation rather than the individuals who make it up.

[Uncle fester]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

[Deepsouth]

The famously neutral Swiss haven't gone pillaging since
the Swabian war.

No but they’ve taken everyone else’s pillaged wealth

Well you know the Swiss, very emotional poople.
.

[Uncle fester]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It’s very true that white dominated countries are the best run but that’s because they pillaged the rest of the world to generate the wealth necessary to achieve that.

I absolutely do not believe that white people are by default racist, it’s not about the bulk of white people, it’s about the minority that are kicking off right now

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

[Deepsouth]

It’s very true that white dominated countries are the best run but that’s because they pillaged the rest of the world to generate the wealth necessary to achieve that.

I absolutely do not believe that white people are by default racist, it’s not about the bulk of white people, it’s about the minority that are kicking off right now

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

Yes but they were Spanish or French. Certainly not Irish.....

[robmatic]

The famously neutral Swiss haven't gone pillaging since
the Swabian war.

No but they’ve taken everyone else’s pillaged wealth

Mostly third world despots doing that pillaging and depositing it in Switzerland these days.

[vball]

I blame it all in the creation of the Labour Party and giving women the vote.
Before that Britain had an empire and ruled the world.

[Hugo]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

[Blackmac]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.