Angry White Men

[Paddington Bear]

It’s very true that white dominated countries are the best run but that’s because they pillaged the rest of the world to generate the wealth necessary to achieve that.

I absolutely do not believe that white people are by default racist, it’s not about the bulk of white people, it’s about the minority that are kicking off right now

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

[Slick]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

Firstly, that’s a Ladybird version of the Islamic Revolution.

Second, I had an off the record briefing today about Ghana, basically the next 2 elections have already been agreed over a handshake. Such a shame for the country

[Slick]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Totally agree.

[Flockwitt]

And I thought this was a safe place to come and be angry

[Hugo]

Lol, that's pretty out there to think that good
governance is dependent on pillaged wealth

Here's some internet list of the best governed countries in the world, so basically fact

Switzerland 1
New Zealand 2
Denmark 3
Sweden 4
Finland 5
Luxembourg 6
Canada 7
Norway 8

Not that much wealth pillaging going on there

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

There's that and there's also the point that if you are going to blame the colonial power indefinitely for the state of your country then it rather defeats the purpose of gaining independence.

[Hugo]

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

Firstly, that’s a Ladybird version of the Islamic Revolution.

Second, I had an off the record briefing today about Ghana, basically the next 2 elections have already been agreed over a handshake. Such a shame for the country

That is so depressing.

[Paddington Bear]

Maybe a better way of looking at it is the inverse, what are the worst run countries? Chances are they are all post-colonial countries dealing with the mess the western states left behind.

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

There's that and there's also the point that if you are going to blame the colonial power indefinitely for the state of your country then it rather defeats the purpose of gaining independence.

Can’t speak to Africa - never been. What I would say from time spent in Asia is the ‘whites ruined everything’ narrative is much much more common as a talking point among left wing diaspora in the west than it is for those in the old country

[Hugo]

How does this argument deal with, say, Poland? Subject to genocide, occupied repeatedly through the 20th century, pillaged by both the Germans and Russians, and within 20 years or so of the end of the Cold War a first world country. Similarly Vietnam, decades of war, carpet bombed, people in reeducation camps and now stable and prosperous. Or half a hundred other examples of nations left in utter shit in the 20th century that are now successes. Africa has a set of issues all its own, its too easy to blame it on others

There's that and there's also the point that if you are going to blame the colonial power indefinitely for the state of your country then it rather defeats the purpose of gaining independence.

Can’t speak to Africa - never been. What I would say from time spent in Asia is the ‘whites ruined everything’ narrative is much much more common as a talking point among left wing diaspora in the west than it is for those in the old country

Interesting.

I guess it's one of those things that you can look at on a case by case basis. The utter insanity of North Korea has to some extent be a consequence of being bombed into the Stone age in the 50s. However, the Chinese got their arse handed to them by the Japanese and the west for 100 years or so and have used that humiliation as a catalyst for national improvement.

[Tilly Orifice]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

[Calculon]

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

If you ask many homophobic African men they will tell you that homosexuality isn't part of their culture but is a perverted
Western import, or such charming stories of if there was a suspected homo in their village they would beat
the gayness out of him.

[Slick]

And racism is still a live issue in our society:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84jzex9vk8o

It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

[Torquemada 1420]

The idea that Britain’s wealth was built on pillage is, whilst currently popular, historically illiterate. Britain was able to build an empire because it *was already* wealthy. Even during the imperial period it was coal that drove the engine.

Britain would have been relatively wealthy due to coal (as you say, the accident of high quality coal is why the industrial revolution started here) but that would have been increasingly less so without Empire as others eventually caught up. The Empire was absolutely based on pillage.

[epwc]

It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

[Paddington Bear]

The idea that Britain’s wealth was built on pillage is, whilst currently popular, historically illiterate. Britain was able to build an empire because it *was already* wealthy. Even during the imperial period it was coal that drove the engine.

Britain would have been relatively wealthy due to coal (as you say, the accident of high quality coal is why the industrial revolution started here) but that would have been increasingly less so without Empire as others eventually caught up. The Empire was absolutely based on pillage.

The stats don’t bear this out. I’d recommend David Edgerton’s ‘the Rise and Fall of the British Nation’ to anyone - he’s a card carrying Labour man, has spoken at SNP events and is a long way from an imperial apologist. He shows that it was still coal in 1900 driving British wealth, he described as aptly as the ‘Saudi Arabia of the 19th century’.

Empire based on pillage? More complicated than that. Certain people and groups certainly did that. The extent to which it enriched Britain as a nation rather than those people is highly questionable, it certainly built homes now owned by the National Trust though. For the most part the British government strongly opposed imperial expansion as a costly distraction (contributing among other things to American independence) and saw Empire as a method of controlling trade routes. Even unquestionably shameful episodes like the Opium Wars ended up losing money.

Besides, addressing the points for this thread - there are plenty of countries that were under British dominion that are now well run prosperous nations. I also used the example of Poland as a state that ceased to exist, was subject to state run pillage and genocide and yet has bounced back within 20 years. Blaming everything on the Brits as is fashionable today is an example of Main Character Energy on our own part

[epwc]

The Empire was absolutely based on pillage.

And all of “the West” participated directly or benefited indirectly, Norway for example with dried cod sales

[epwc]

I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

Not just white men. Slavery, Islam and Christianity between them threw existing societial structures and norms on the bonfire and I guess we’re still dealing with the results

I don’t think we know what “African” views on homosexuality were in say the 10th century were

[Paddington Bear]

It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

[Jock42]

And I thought this was a safe place to come and be angry

Only if you're not white because then you're definitely not part of a culture or society that have ever been part of a violent conquest (successful or otherwise) and therefore are allowed to be angry.

[epwc]

PB

Much of what you say is true but I don’t think I live in a parallel society, I fully participate.

[robmatic]

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

This is probably indicative.

[epwc]

This is probably indicative.

Of what

[Hugo]

It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

You and Slick are spot on.

Part of the reason why Cortes was able to pull off the conquest of the Aztecs was because he allied with other Mesoamerican civilisations who had been subjugated by the Aztecs. My point being people weren't living in perfect harmony with their neighbours only for Europeans to throw a spanner in the works.

There is nothing exceptional about European empire building really other than the fact that we had superior technology in order to pull it off on a large scale. So it is with racism, we don't have a monopoly on it, it's not some western invention as some seem to believe.

[Hugo]

This is probably indicative.

Of what

Presumably that if you are rich you are largely insulated from what affects other people's lives more immediately.

[robmatic]

This is probably indicative.

Of what

You have significant wealth and don't understand why people with less privilege might be angry.

[dpedin]

That's dangerously simplistic.
For example, Iran had a liberal democratic government but they were overgrown by, guess who...western white men and this in turn led to the Islamic government.

Similar stories in South America.

You are conflating two different things imo. I won't defend western foreign policy because it's been so exploitative through the years.

However, I'm talking about civil society. Ghana has been independent since 1957 and is considered a flagship African state for having its shit together, being stable and democratic etc.

However just a few months back an anti LGBT law passed their Parliament with bipartisan support. You can't pin that on white people or the west.

Another example - child sex slavery is still a thing in parts of Ghana. Again, you can't pin stuff like this on the west.

I don't think Africa was famously homophobic before white people showed up.

This white men are brilliant stuff all depends how far back in history you go I suppose. There have been numerous example of highly complex and civilized societies in existence all around the world whilst we white men were still in nappies when it came to civilization? At the moment, for a number of complex reasons not least climate issues, we white men have developed the most complex civilization in history so far but this is increasingly based on using the raw resources and people from less advanced societies but this has always been the case. It is also a bit short sighted to think that this current status quo will continue - every other civilization in the history of the world has collapsed into disarray and another has risen to take its place. It is interesting to remember that Cleopatra was born closer to the invention of the mobile phone than the building of the pyramids in Giza! Using the snapshot of now is a very short sighted view of the civilized world over the last c6,000 years.

[Hugo]

Every civilization and every Empire has a shelf life then experiences a decline. Many reasons why, sometimes corruption, being usurped or conquered by another civilization, sometimes just complacency and the lack of resolve to stay at the top of the pack

Personally I think the western world has been on a noticeable downward trajectory since the end of the Cold War. Huntingdon in Clash of Civilizations argues that the west has been in steady decline for the past few centuries.

[Paddington Bear]

PB

Much of what you say is true but I don’t think I live in a parallel society, I fully participate.

I have no doubt about that and you’re not alone, but you are an exception rather than the rule.

[Slick]

It is and we still have a lot of work to do. But I’d rather be a black or Asian person in the U.K. than a black person in Asia or an Asian person in Africa, for instance.

Me too

When I lived in London far and away the most overt racism i saw was between black and Asian folk

To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

Completely agree, co-exist is a good way of putting it, and it largely works pretty well with enough crossover for most people to enjoy the mix. The apparent panacea of multiculturalism is something I don’t think any ethnic group actually aspires to.

Of course we laugh and show our disgust at white folk in Spain not mixing whilst turning a completely blind eye to the reality of all the groups in the U.K. and in just about every country in the world.

[Hellraiser]

This is probably indicative.

Of what

You being a smug, bien pensant, bourgeois liberal who lives in a bubble.

[petej]

Me too



To an extent maybe, BUT that’s not what we’re talking about.

Why are white men so angry when from my point of view there’s fuck all to be angry about.

Maybe we’re not leaders of the world anymore, or the wealthiest nation, strongest militarily however you want to judge but the UK is still a brilliant place to live. I’m wealthy enough to live pretty much anywhere but I like this place. I was out in London yesterday on the South bank, absolutely great how so many different cultures can co exist.

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

You and Slick are spot on.

Part of the reason why Cortes was able to pull off the conquest of the Aztecs was because he allied with other Mesoamerican civilisations who had been subjugated by the Aztecs. My point being people weren't living in perfect harmony with their neighbours only for Europeans to throw a spanner in the works.

There is nothing exceptional about European empire building really other than the fact that we had superior technology in order to pull it off on a large scale. So it is with racism, we don't have a monopoly on it, it's not some western invention as some seem to believe.

I suspect diseases played a significant role in devastating American populations.

In a work context the worst stuff I have heard in the last 10 years has been from a muslim Pakistani guy with those of black African descent being likened to monkeys, women can't drive, Jews secretly ruling the world and gay people should be killed. I don't think I said much back beyond you can't say that, that's not true and that is ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.

[Hugo]

Co-exist I think is the right way of putting it though, even if we keep being told we live in a multi-cultural society. The pubs along the South Bank and indeed through Central have demographics that have not meaningfully changed in 50 years, in a city that has changed beyond comprehension. White people socialise together in central before returning to their suburbs, asian people socialise together in other parts of town and return to suburbs where they are a plurality, black people the same etc. The central properties are owned by plutocrats and oligarchs who want nothing to do with any of the above.

Essentially, I think as you and Slick have said we do a much better job at not being an actively racist society than comparable nations. But we do it by living in parallel societies.

On inter-minority racism - the Tamil lads who are members of my cricket club say absolutely eye watering things about Pakistanis and black people without blinking an eye. As the Indian community is the largest recipient of visas and can vote on arrival this is going to be a bigger and bigger factor in our national politics.

You and Slick are spot on.

Part of the reason why Cortes was able to pull off the conquest of the Aztecs was because he allied with other Mesoamerican civilisations who had been subjugated by the Aztecs. My point being people weren't living in perfect harmony with their neighbours only for Europeans to throw a spanner in the works.

There is nothing exceptional about European empire building really other than the fact that we had superior technology in order to pull it off on a large scale. So it is with racism, we don't have a monopoly on it, it's not some western invention as some seem to believe.

I suspect diseases played a significant role in devastating American populations.

In a work context the worst stuff I have heard in the last 10 years has been from a muslim Pakistani guy with those of black African descent being likened to monkeys, women can't drive, Jews secretly ruling the world and gay people should be killed. I don't think I said much back beyond you can't say that, that's not true and that is ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.

Very true. The population of the natives was decimated by disease in all of the Americas.

[petej]

I thought it was about 3 or 4 major diseases that might have killed 50% of the population.

[petej]

- if you are c.40 or under you have been educated and have subsequently begun a working life that is materially exceptionally different to the one experienced by boomers *even for people working at the same company*. I don’t accept that being male or white is such an advantage in this context, as it clearly was 20-30 years ago.

This generational inequality is important. Just think, a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

Generational and regional.

a few decades ago people under the age of 40 were able to buy a house

They also didn't go on as many expensive holidays, eat out as much, pay for multiple streaming services, iphones, deliveroo, tattoos everywhere and so on....

But the critical things are more expensive like food (real food not the packed with shit stuff that is terrible for our health), housing and education.

Edit: it is the backend of using the boomers to get into power

[lemonhead]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Quite a significant nub lurking in this one, to effect those parties (however dishonest, venal and self serving) freely discuss matters that the more mainstream ones won't touch.

And your point will always resonate far better in a simmering febrile vacuum than one where the conversation's out in the open air, debated in detail and mostly understood.

I used work for an elderly couple who'd moved down from Cork to run our local pub/hotel. Pleasant/harmless enough, if a touch myopic at times. Plenty in the community thought they were idiots. But the wife of the two said to me once on the subject that her daughter, a single mother with a young child struggling for years to secure council housing was finding all those newly available being allocated straight to refugees (this was around 1997 btw) and she didn't think that was right or fair to our own citizens. 'And if that makes me racist' she turns to me 'Then feck it, I suppose I'm racist'.

I'm not going to pick that apart any further except to say even then there were many thousands like her, in a very prosperous boom time of the Celtic Tiger economy mkI and everything supposedly rosy for life at large. Now how that's progressed through further immigration, integration, the fabric of society shifting, multiple financial crises, pandemic etc is anyone's guess. The pub for instance long since changed hands and after the latest owners took over they tried to run it in a depressed trading environment for a year or two before jumping at a several hundred thousand euro contract to house 40-50 Ukranian refugees in a small isolated community of 100 people. (said community has thankfully embraced them and imagine many of them will stay and raise families in the area).

But that conversation, that feeling of being marginalised by your own politicians in favour of that great, mysterious Other, who talks funny (or doesn't talk at all and mostly just stares silently at you), who keep to themselves, you'll never see them except at the supermarket or outside the jobcentre, oh there was that homeless one who was always half drunk and set fire to the local restaurant after being refused service that night etc. Are they integrating or are they just setting up their own community inside ours. And taking our jobs (while simultaneously sponging off the state at the same time) you can't get a house anymore, the community's changed, it never used to be like this, government does nothing. And so on.

Whether you agree or not there's endless material out there for people predisposed to think their way of life is under threat and things are going to shit. And in the UK for instance where there's already mass inequality between regions, public services falling to pieces, low wage growth, poor quality/quantity of jobs, housing...just don't go there. I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened sooner. And perhaps it did. Things were tricky ten years back and we got Brexit and Trump. And since that magic bean panacea left us all even fkin worse off maybe it's just time to smash shit. Setting aside people who just want it anyway.

Life is change. Perhaps the pace/direction of travel has alienated some; feeling threatened, ignored and worried about the future - or the now. And others perhaps just don't like brown people. No ones really bothered to find out in any detail.

And more importantly, anyone ever really tried to explain that direction of travel: population, tax base, demographics, birth rates? Never mind the level of local infrastructure, support, help with integration etc. that's needed. Or have they just pointedly ignored the rather big political landmine and hope to also ignore those wanting answers.

Maybe they'll hate the answers even more than the easy ones they're opting for. Ones more global that have nothing to do with immigration, or 'woke'. But the so called minority is growing, and growing louder as times get harder. Dismissing them all as racist is not going to make them simply go away back to their own country.

[Hugo]

White men are brilliant tbh. If you look at the societies that white men have built they are by and large more open, more egalitarian, with greater respect for the rights of minorities than societies elsewhere.

Example: Latin America is a dangerous place for women, rates of violence against women and femicide are astronomical. African countries are notoriously homophobic with draconian punishments for being gay or lesbian.

I think things are reaching a point where we are exhausted of being told we have it easier than everyone else and that we are by default racist and/or bad people. It just doesn't match reality.

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Quite a significant nub lurking in this one, to effect those parties (however dishonest, venal and self serving) freely discuss matters that the more mainstream ones won't touch.

And your point will always resonate far better in a simmering febrile vacuum than one where the conversation's out in the open air, debated in detail and mostly understood.

I used work for an elderly couple who'd moved down from Cork to run our local pub/hotel. Pleasant/harmless enough, if a touch myopic at times. Plenty in the community thought they were idiots. But the wife of the two said to me once on the subject that her daughter, a single mother with a young child struggling for years to secure council housing was finding all those newly available being allocated straight to refugees (this was around 1997 btw) and she didn't think that was right or fair to our own citizens. 'And if that makes me racist' she turns to me 'Then feck it, I suppose I'm racist'.

I'm not going to pick that apart any further except to say even then there were many thousands like her, in a very prosperous boom time of the Celtic Tiger economy mkI and everything supposedly rosy for life at large. Now how that's progressed through further immigration, integration, the fabric of society shifting, multiple financial crises, pandemic etc is anyone's guess. The pub for instance long since changed hands and after the latest owners took over they tried to run it in a depressed trading environment for a year or two before jumping at a several hundred thousand euro contract to house 40-50 Ukranian refugees in a small isolated community of 100 people. (said community has thankfully embraced them and imagine many of them will stay and raise families in the area).

But that conversation, that feeling of being marginalised by your own politicians in favour of that great, mysterious Other, who talks funny (or doesn't talk at all and mostly just stares silently at you), who keep to themselves, you'll never see them except at the supermarket or outside the jobcentre, oh there was that homeless one who was always half drunk and set fire to the local restaurant after being refused service that night etc. Are they integrating or are they just setting up their own community inside ours. And taking our jobs (while simultaneously sponging off the state at the same time) you can't get a house anymore, the community's changed, it never used to be like this, government does nothing. And so on.

Whether you agree or not there's endless material out there for people predisposed to think their way of life is under threat and things are going to shit. And in the UK for instance where there's already mass inequality between regions, public services falling to pieces, low wage growth, poor quality/quantity of jobs, housing...just don't go there. I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened sooner. And perhaps it did. Things were tricky ten years back and we got Brexit and Trump. And since that magic bean panacea left us all even fkin worse off maybe it's just time to smash shit. Setting aside people who just want it anyway.

Life is change. Perhaps the pace/direction of travel has alienated some; feeling threatened, ignored and worried about the future - or the now. And others perhaps just don't like brown people. No ones really bothered to find out in any detail.

And more importantly, anyone ever really tried to explain that direction of travel: population, tax base, demographics, birth rates? Never mind the level of local infrastructure, support, help with integration etc. that's needed. Or have they just pointedly ignored the rather big political landmine and hope to also ignore those wanting answers.

Maybe they'll hate the answers even more than the easy ones they're opting for. Ones more global that have nothing to do with immigration, or 'woke'. But the so called minority is growing, and growing louder as times get harder. Dismissing them all as racist is not going to make them simply go away back to their own country.

Interesting post. Agree with what you are saying about disenfranchised communities feeling marginalised by politicians.

One of the things I have noticed over the past decade (stretching to the BLM movement and back to Brexit and the 2016 US Presidential election) is that people who are well educated and who lead relatively prosperous lives don't tend to have their finger on the pulse.

News media tend to be centered far away from the stuff going on in the provinces (be it to the American Mid West or the north of England or wherever) and so this stuff catches them unawares. Therefore, you get overly simplified analysis like Hillary lost the election due to misogyny and no real stab at getting to grips with some of the deeper underlying issues.

[Slick]

It's also very easy to ridicule and dismiss these people, and suggest they are racist and ignorant, however right wing political parties are gaining more and more traction throughout the western world because they feel so disenfranchised.

Quite a significant nub lurking in this one, to effect those parties (however dishonest, venal and self serving) freely discuss matters that the more mainstream ones won't touch.

And your point will always resonate far better in a simmering febrile vacuum than one where the conversation's out in the open air, debated in detail and mostly understood.

I used work for an elderly couple who'd moved down from Cork to run our local pub/hotel. Pleasant/harmless enough, if a touch myopic at times. Plenty in the community thought they were idiots. But the wife of the two said to me once on the subject that her daughter, a single mother with a young child struggling for years to secure council housing was finding all those newly available being allocated straight to refugees (this was around 1997 btw) and she didn't think that was right or fair to our own citizens. 'And if that makes me racist' she turns to me 'Then feck it, I suppose I'm racist'.

I'm not going to pick that apart any further except to say even then there were many thousands like her, in a very prosperous boom time of the Celtic Tiger economy mkI and everything supposedly rosy for life at large. Now how that's progressed through further immigration, integration, the fabric of society shifting, multiple financial crises, pandemic etc is anyone's guess. The pub for instance long since changed hands and after the latest owners took over they tried to run it in a depressed trading environment for a year or two before jumping at a several hundred thousand euro contract to house 40-50 Ukranian refugees in a small isolated community of 100 people. (said community has thankfully embraced them and imagine many of them will stay and raise families in the area).

But that conversation, that feeling of being marginalised by your own politicians in favour of that great, mysterious Other, who talks funny (or doesn't talk at all and mostly just stares silently at you), who keep to themselves, you'll never see them except at the supermarket or outside the jobcentre, oh there was that homeless one who was always half drunk and set fire to the local restaurant after being refused service that night etc. Are they integrating or are they just setting up their own community inside ours. And taking our jobs (while simultaneously sponging off the state at the same time) you can't get a house anymore, the community's changed, it never used to be like this, government does nothing. And so on.

Whether you agree or not there's endless material out there for people predisposed to think their way of life is under threat and things are going to shit. And in the UK for instance where there's already mass inequality between regions, public services falling to pieces, low wage growth, poor quality/quantity of jobs, housing...just don't go there. I'm frankly surprised it hasn't happened sooner. And perhaps it did. Things were tricky ten years back and we got Brexit and Trump. And since that magic bean panacea left us all even fkin worse off maybe it's just time to smash shit. Setting aside people who just want it anyway.

Life is change. Perhaps the pace/direction of travel has alienated some; feeling threatened, ignored and worried about the future - or the now. And others perhaps just don't like brown people. No ones really bothered to find out in any detail.

And more importantly, anyone ever really tried to explain that direction of travel: population, tax base, demographics, birth rates? Never mind the level of local infrastructure, support, help with integration etc. that's needed. Or have they just pointedly ignored the rather big political landmine and hope to also ignore those wanting answers.

Maybe they'll hate the answers even more than the easy ones they're opting for. Ones more global that have nothing to do with immigration, or 'woke'. But the so called minority is growing, and growing louder as times get harder. Dismissing them all as racist is not going to make them simply go away back to their own country.

Interesting post. Agree with what you are saying about disenfranchised communities feeling marginalised by politicians.

One of the things I have noticed over the past decade (stretching to the BLM movement and back to Brexit and the 2016 US Presidential election) is that people who are well educated and who lead relatively prosperous lives don't tend to have their finger on the pulse.

News media tend to be centered far away from the stuff going on in the provinces (be it to the American Mid West or the north of England or wherever) and so this stuff catches them unawares. Therefore, you get overly simplified analysis like Hillary lost the election due to misogyny and no real stab at getting to grips with some of the deeper underlying issues.

That’s a good point, but I do wonder if it’s not having their finger in the pulse or it’s just that social media drives a lot of the mainstream media narrative and that in turn is driven by a relatively small number of people.

[Biffer]

We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

[tabascoboy]

We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

And yet with UKIP standing down, no doubt that large numbers of the #enoughisenough brigade involved in or supporting the riots voted that way! Then of course switching to the Farage/Tice "voice of the people/just like us " subsequently...

[Hugo]

We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

Excellent, excellent points.

Working class people really have no representation in that regard.

Not to do with Britain but along those same lines, I read a great piece in the NYT about four or five years ago that talked about how unions were not really part of Obama's coalition and that he went to great lengths to keep organised labour at arms length.

A lot of people are politically homeless which is not a healthy thing for a democracy.

[robmatic]

We’ve hardly mentioned class and regionalism here as specific things.

The UK will vote for a complete fucking shyster because he went to Eton and Oxbridge and has a posh voice.

A competent man with a broad Birmingham accent would never be elected Prime Minister.

This is a significant part of the disenfranchisement, that there are no ‘people like me’ in parliament or positions of leadership. Those who do come from that background have their accents knocked off them.

A functional Union movement used to be one of the things that that gave people that representation.

And yet with UKIP standing down, no doubt that large numbers of the #enoughisenough brigade involved in or supporting the riots voted that way! Then of course switching to the Farage/Tice "voice of the people/just like us " subsequently...

It's a complicated dynamic, with centuries of forelock-tugging leaving a mark on the British pysche.