Angry White Men

[Hugo]

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

A multi-ethnic society requires a much stronger state that does not allow ethnic tensions like this to surface. You prevent that by requiring greater integration, reducing ethnic enclaves through the allocation of social housing and an absolute zero tolerance policing and justice effort (including the deportation of violent foreign nationals and heavy jail sentences for citizens). That is not what we’re seeing, and it rolls the wicket for the violence we are seeing.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

You really think bigger state intervention will help?

Not sure the evidence supports that. The more the state tries to social engineer, the closer and closer we get to authoritarianism.

I’ve worked with the civil service - they work hard and are smart - but they aren’t Gods. Some of the things they write into law have the opposite impact they wanted once released into the world.

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

You mean like a Tito, Yugoslavian type dynamic?

[Sandstorm]

You got time to expand on that? As I’m of the exact opposite view. But I’m not sure why!

Me too. I want to trust that Brits can play nice with everyone, but I also think there's a sizable population who still need a good kicking!

[petej]

You really think bigger state intervention will help?

Not sure the evidence supports that. The more the state tries to social engineer, the closer and closer we get to authoritarianism.

I’ve worked with the civil service - they work hard and are smart - but they aren’t Gods. Some of the things they write into law have the opposite impact they wanted once released into the world.

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

You got time to expand on that? As I’m of the exact opposite view. But I’m not sure why!

I think it needs a more interventionist state. Not necessarily a more authoritarian one.

The bad actors part of this is huge. As you've had two attacks resulting in murders on a demographic who have then held riots against a third demographic who weren't involved.

[Random1]

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

You got time to expand on that? As I’m of the exact opposite view. But I’m not sure why!

I think it needs a more interventionist state. Not necessarily a more authoritarian one.

The bad actors part of this is huge. As you've had two attacks resulting in murders on a demographic who have then held riots against a third demographic who weren't involved.

What sort of intervention you thinking?

[Jock42]

PB just to add, I take your point that for whatever reason white people are disturbed by changes in demography but I can tell you all 3 of my daughters who look 100% white are anxious about the future in a country with visibly increasing xenophobia and now open racism.

Who should we care more about?

Have you seen this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj622z0w7n0o

I can’t say anything to assuage their fears this is real physical violence happening in front of their eyes

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

A multi-ethnic society requires a much stronger state that does not allow ethnic tensions like this to surface. You prevent that by requiring greater integration, reducing ethnic enclaves through the allocation of social housing and an absolute zero tolerance policing and justice effort (including the deportation of violent foreign nationals and heavy jail sentences for citizens). That is not what we’re seeing, and it rolls the wicket for the violence we are seeing.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

As a point of pedantry Lt Col Teeton is still alive. I think the lack of coverage over his stabbing plays into the feelings of these rioters and protestors.

[Paddington Bear]

You really think bigger state intervention will help?

Not sure the evidence supports that. The more the state tries to social engineer, the closer and closer we get to authoritarianism.

I’ve worked with the civil service - they work hard and are smart - but they aren’t Gods. Some of the things they write into law have the opposite impact they wanted once released into the world.

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

You mean like a Tito, Yugoslavian type dynamic?

Can’t say I know enough about Tito. I’d say Singapore is a good example for us - English speaking, common law (to an extent) etc. Their social contract is wildly different to ours. Break the law as a foreigner and you’re out of there. Riot if you’re the ethnic majority and you’re in serious shit. No major ethnic enclaves which leads to much greater forced intervention. I just don’t see how a liberal state survives contact with the forces it has unleashed, and I think we need to revisit our social contract.

[tabascoboy]

[petej]

You got time to expand on that? As I’m of the exact opposite view. But I’m not sure why!

I think it needs a more interventionist state. Not necessarily a more authoritarian one.

The bad actors part of this is huge. As you've had two attacks resulting in murders on a demographic who have then held riots against a third demographic who weren't involved.

What sort of intervention you thinking?

Economic mostly. More directly in things like housing.

[Random1]

I think it needs a more interventionist state. Not necessarily a more authoritarian one.

The bad actors part of this is huge. As you've had two attacks resulting in murders on a demographic who have then held riots against a third demographic who weren't involved.

What sort of intervention you thinking?

Economic mostly. More directly in things like housing.

Yeah, the devil’s in the details. For example, using tax money to subsidise housing and then building on green belt and/or garden cramping people could just as easily lead to more frustration, not less.

[Random1]

A functional multi ethnic state requires a degree on authoritarianism we are going to find very uncomfortable, yes

You mean like a Tito, Yugoslavian type dynamic?

Can’t say I know enough about Tito. I’d say Singapore is a good example for us - English speaking, common law (to an extent) etc. Their social contract is wildly different to ours. Break the law as a foreigner and you’re out of there. Riot if you’re the ethnic majority and you’re in serious shit. No major ethnic enclaves which leads to much greater forced intervention. I just don’t see how a liberal state survives contact with the forces it has unleashed, and I think we need to revisit our social contract.

Effectively reverse the enlightenment?

God that sounds awful.

[Margin__Walker]

Not sure I agree with that Random

I'm a straight white male. Not outwardly an ally of anything. Definitely don't go anywhere near the he/him pronoun stuff ect. I'm pretty far form the 'woke/antifa' end of the spectrum as it's painted in the online discourse.

I've never felt that my presence is toxic though.


It's an interesting thread though as this whole thing does seem to be primarily a male phenomenon. Where are the angry white women? Sure there are a scattering, but they are really under represented in what's happening. Do they not have the same concerns, how does this poll etc?

One thing I find challenging is the strawmen that get thrown up when talking about the issue in many spaces. If you criticise those out on the streets chucking rocks or those online that are facilitating the discourse that leads people to do so, you're in the all immigration is welcome camp.

Clearly it's a hugely complex issue, with legal immigration driving the majority of the figures. And of course there are societal pressures that follow. Calling out the danger of the far right out on the streets and the structures enabling them, isn't the same as believing there should be no restrictions on immigration. Not something that's prevalent on here to be fair but it's front and centre elsewhere online. There's very little room for nuance.

Your exposure may not be the same as others though. Just off the top of my head;

The Rotherham grooming scandal. Social services and the police have admitted one of the reasons they didn’t tackle it, is they were concerned about being called racist.

For me, I think there’s a fairly strong argument to say this is related to the idea of white privilege ie that white people need to be hyper conscious of their implicit bias and expressing this implicit bias is racism and societally disgusting. .

Another case is the Manchester bombing, where the security guard didn’t act upon suspicions he had about the bomber because he feared being named a racist.

It’s these sorts of examples the right wing media put forward as examples of how white people are being put at risk due to the current approach to race.

. Regardless of how uncomfortable it makes me feel - I think it’s fair to say that if those police and that security guard had acted on their instinct, rather than thinking about race, there would be a load of girls alive today that aren’t.

Throw in low IQ, a mass stabbing, proper racists like Tommy manynames and some Russian fuckery on social media, and it’s really not a surprise to me that some white males are feeling justified in some of this.

I was referring to the masculinity being deemed toxic point rather than fear of being labelled racist.

Masculinity is toxic, so there’s no longer a line between men and toxic men.

On the point about that fear of being seen as racist though, I'd expect that fear will have played some part. Clearly that is a problem. I'd suggest that it may be a little more complex than that though. If you had screwed up as badly as they did in both cases, fear of being seen as racist is probably a fairly convenient excuse to an extent as well.

I'd expect there was at least an element of not wanting the hassle and taking the chance that it's more likely that everything was above board in the case or the arena bombing anyway.

[Hugo]

You mean like a Tito, Yugoslavian type dynamic?

Can’t say I know enough about Tito. I’d say Singapore is a good example for us - English speaking, common law (to an extent) etc. Their social contract is wildly different to ours. Break the law as a foreigner and you’re out of there. Riot if you’re the ethnic majority and you’re in serious shit. No major ethnic enclaves which leads to much greater forced intervention. I just don’t see how a liberal state survives contact with the forces it has unleashed, and I think we need to revisit our social contract.

Effectively reverse the enlightenment?

God that sounds awful.

I don't think that is what PB is outlining here. I think it's moreso that democracies can be chaotic so you have to subtract some of the things that can be catalysts for upheaval.

[Random1]

Not sure I agree with that Random

I'm a straight white male. Not outwardly an ally of anything. Definitely don't go anywhere near the he/him pronoun stuff ect. I'm pretty far form the 'woke/antifa' end of the spectrum as it's painted in the online discourse.

I've never felt that my presence is toxic though.


It's an interesting thread though as this whole thing does seem to be primarily a male phenomenon. Where are the angry white women? Sure there are a scattering, but they are really under represented in what's happening. Do they not have the same concerns, how does this poll etc?

One thing I find challenging is the strawmen that get thrown up when talking about the issue in many spaces. If you criticise those out on the streets chucking rocks or those online that are facilitating the discourse that leads people to do so, you're in the all immigration is welcome camp.

Clearly it's a hugely complex issue, with legal immigration driving the majority of the figures. And of course there are societal pressures that follow. Calling out the danger of the far right out on the streets and the structures enabling them, isn't the same as believing there should be no restrictions on immigration. Not something that's prevalent on here to be fair but it's front and centre elsewhere online. There's very little room for nuance.

Your exposure may not be the same as others though. Just off the top of my head;

The Rotherham grooming scandal. Social services and the police have admitted one of the reasons they didn’t tackle it, is they were concerned about being called racist.

For me, I think there’s a fairly strong argument to say this is related to the idea of white privilege ie that white people need to be hyper conscious of their implicit bias and expressing this implicit bias is racism and societally disgusting. .

Another case is the Manchester bombing, where the security guard didn’t act upon suspicions he had about the bomber because he feared being named a racist.

It’s these sorts of examples the right wing media put forward as examples of how white people are being put at risk due to the current approach to race.

. Regardless of how uncomfortable it makes me feel - I think it’s fair to say that if those police and that security guard had acted on their instinct, rather than thinking about race, there would be a load of girls alive today that aren’t.

Throw in low IQ, a mass stabbing, proper racists like Tommy manynames and some Russian fuckery on social media, and it’s really not a surprise to me that some white males are feeling justified in some of this.

I was referring to the masculinity being deemed toxic point rather than fear of being labelled racist.

Masculinity is toxic, so there’s no longer a line between men and toxic men.

On the point about that fear of being seen as racist though, I'd expect that fear will have played some part. Clearly that is a problem. I'd suggest that it may be a little more complex than that though. If you had screwed up as badly as they did in both cases, fear of being seen as racist is probably a fairly convenient excuse to an extent as well.

I'd expect there was at least an element of not wanting the hassle and taking the chance that it's more likely that everything was above board in the case or the arena bombing anyway.

On the toxic masculinity side - now, don’t bite my head off; but this is the narrative;

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

‘Boys being boys’ behaviour is treated with Ritalin rather than discipline.

The meetoo movement went so far that someone touching a knee 30 years ago deserves public shaming and disciplinary action.

Men’s spaces are being eradicated which means that men can’t teach boys to be men away from women.

Traditional male approaches such as stoicism to mental health are now derided and now the approach to mental health doesn’t recognise the cognitive differences between men and women.

Men still do the vast majority of painful, dangerous jobs, yet all anyone talks about is the gender pay gap

For me, I can see how any one of those things can be seen as a storm in a tea cup, but all added together, plus other examples, and I can see why young men in particular are finding Andrew Tate at al alluring.

[Random1]

Can’t say I know enough about Tito. I’d say Singapore is a good example for us - English speaking, common law (to an extent) etc. Their social contract is wildly different to ours. Break the law as a foreigner and you’re out of there. Riot if you’re the ethnic majority and you’re in serious shit. No major ethnic enclaves which leads to much greater forced intervention. I just don’t see how a liberal state survives contact with the forces it has unleashed, and I think we need to revisit our social contract.

Effectively reverse the enlightenment?

God that sounds awful.

I don't think that is what PB is outlining here. I think it's moreso that democracies can be chaotic so you have to subtract some of the things that can be catalysts for upheaval.

Ah, ok. Well, I’ll see what interventions PB was thinking about, as I’m struggling to think of a social intervention that hasn’t ended up with unforeseen consequences.

[dpedin]

Your exposure may not be the same as others though. Just off the top of my head;

The Rotherham grooming scandal. Social services and the police have admitted one of the reasons they didn’t tackle it, is they were concerned about being called racist.

For me, I think there’s a fairly strong argument to say this is related to the idea of white privilege ie that white people need to be hyper conscious of their implicit bias and expressing this implicit bias is racism and societally disgusting. .

Another case is the Manchester bombing, where the security guard didn’t act upon suspicions he had about the bomber because he feared being named a racist.

It’s these sorts of examples the right wing media put forward as examples of how white people are being put at risk due to the current approach to race.

. Regardless of how uncomfortable it makes me feel - I think it’s fair to say that if those police and that security guard had acted on their instinct, rather than thinking about race, there would be a load of girls alive today that aren’t.

Throw in low IQ, a mass stabbing, proper racists like Tommy manynames and some Russian fuckery on social media, and it’s really not a surprise to me that some white males are feeling justified in some of this.

I was referring to the masculinity being deemed toxic point rather than fear of being labelled racist.

Masculinity is toxic, so there’s no longer a line between men and toxic men.

On the point about that fear of being seen as racist though, I'd expect that fear will have played some part. Clearly that is a problem. I'd suggest that it may be a little more complex than that though. If you had screwed up as badly as they did in both cases, fear of being seen as racist is probably a fairly convenient excuse to an extent as well.

I'd expect there was at least an element of not wanting the hassle and taking the chance that it's more likely that everything was above board in the case or the arena bombing anyway.

On the toxic masculinity side - now, don’t bite my head off; but this is the narrative;

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

‘Boys being boys’ behaviour is treated with Ritalin rather than discipline.

The meetoo movement went so far that someone touching a knee 30 years ago deserves public shaming and disciplinary action.

Men’s spaces are being eradicated which means that men can’t teach boys to be men away from women.

Traditional male approaches such as stoicism to mental health are now derided and now the approach to mental health doesn’t recognise the cognitive differences between men and women.

Men still do the vast majority of painful, dangerous jobs, yet all anyone talks about is the gender pay gap

For me, I can see how any one of those things can be seen as a storm in a tea cup, but all added together, plus other examples, and I can see why young men in particular are finding Andrew Tate at al alluring.

It is a very sad narrative that you describe and not one I recognize.

- examples of school curricula being feminised - I find this a very strange claim indeed.
- Boys being boys is usually shorthand for bullying behaviors and I am happy it is addressed, I dont know anyone on Ritalin
- Touching knee 30 years ago etc example isnt really true though is it, it tries to minimise the actual sexual abuse many women and men had to deal with 30 years ago, it was shameful then and is still shameful now and should be called out!
- Mens spaces are being eradicated - what? where? when? I played football, rugby, golf, etc and still drink in a few clubhouses and local pubs etc and most are still male spaces and none have been eradicated! However I do enjoy having drinks etc in a more inclusive environment as well.
- Stoicism to mental health helps explain why male suicide is the major cause of premature death in the under 50s and the rate is c3 times higher in men than it is in women. If you are suggesting this 'stoicism' is being derided then great as it aint working!
- Gender pay gap - you don't really understand this do you?

I sort of see the point you are trying to make but I am not sure my definition of masculinity is the same as yours? You're examples above certainly don't help your case.

[tabascoboy]

The director of public prosecutions in England and Wales says he is "willing" to consider charging some rioters with terrorism offences

[epwc]

It is a very sad narrative that you describe and not one I recognize.

- examples of school curricula being feminised - I find this a very strange claim indeed.
- Boys being boys is usually shorthand for bullying behaviors and I am happy it is addressed, I dont know anyone on Ritalin
- Touching knee 30 years ago etc example isnt really true though is it, it tries to minimise the actual sexual abuse many women and men had to deal with 30 years ago, it was shameful then and is still shameful now and should be called out!
- Mens spaces are being eradicated - what? where? when? I played football, rugby, golf, etc and still drink in a few clubhouses and local pubs etc and most are still male spaces and none have been eradicated! However I do enjoy having drinks etc in a more inclusive environment as well.
- Stoicism to mental health helps explain why male suicide is the major cause of premature death in the under 50s and the rate is c3 times higher in men than it is in women. If you are suggesting this 'stoicism' is being derided then great as it aint working!
- Gender pay gap - you don't really understand this do you?

I sort of see the point you are trying to make but I am not sure my definition of masculinity is the same as yours? You're examples above certainly don't help your case.

I agree with all of the above, but then I've worked in a heavily female industry all my life with loads of gays thrown in for free and I have 3 daughters so maybe I'm not the kind of man Random is alluding to and that's why I remain unaffected by these issues.

[I like neeps]

Random1 does make a few good points I think.

There is an overperscription of Ritalin and Medafonil. Prescription rates are far higher in boys than girls. Likely not feminisation - we used to have the cane and now we have drugs to calm unruly school boys which is arguably as bad. Definitely a problem though.

You do get sports clubs still but participation rates are way down and it's harder to access them these days.

I also think on suicides and mental health in general it's worth noting that men have high rates of loneliness and fewer friends and that it's maybe more likely not having anyone to speak to is more harmful than not feeling like you can speak. Also economic factors comes into it in a big way as "low skill" middle aged men are most at risk.

[JM2K6]

Random1 does make a few good points I think.

There is an overperscription of Ritalin and Medafonil. Prescription rates are far higher in boys than girls. Likely not feminisation - we used to have the cane and now we have drugs to calm unruly school boys which is arguably as bad. Definitely a problem though.

You do get sports clubs still but participation rates are way down and it's harder to access them these days.

I also think on suicides and mental health in general it's worth noting that men have high rates of loneliness and fewer friends and that it's maybe more likely not having anyone to speak to is more harmful than not feeling like you can speak. Also economic factors comes into it in a big way as "low skill" middle aged men are most at risk.

Prescription rates are higher in boys than girls because girls are much harder to diagnose and present ADHD symptoms very differently. The ADHD diagnosis criteria in youngsters is still pretty backwards and it's much, much harder for girls to get diagnosed than it is for boys. It's not at all true that Ritalin is being used to control boys or anything like that - ADHD simply wasn't being diagnosed in the past because people had a very limited understanding of what it was, and it's still the case that more people with ADHD are going undiagnosed during childhood than not. No-one is giving out Ritalin just because kids are acting up, that simply isn't how the diagnosis works.

[JM2K6]

It’s worth looking at the migration figures from the 1950s to realise just how mythologised the Windrush generation is compared to the reality. What has happened over the last few years is roughly tenfold larger. And yes, I’m using net migration figures

You said demographic transformation, so I assumed we were talking about more than just pure numbers of foreign immigration. Late 40s England wasn't exactly diverse, and there was a huge amount of influx from all over - a genuine demographic change. Can we say the same about the last decade, or is it just a shift in existing numbers? The largest ethnic group in that cohort is Indian, and we've gone from 1m to 1.8m in ~25 years - is that transformation?

I take (and see) your point. What I would say first is that net migration has been so high that the 2021 census is already out of date.

Also, and at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, India is a vast country with a wide range of people. Our established Indian population are well integrated, have very low levels of welfare dependency and high levels of academic achievement. The post-2019 arrivals are on the whole very clearly different; lower skilled, poorer English, having grown up in a nation that over a decade or so under Modi has become rampantly xenophobic, and with enough areas of Britain now with a plurality of Indian origin people and in the era of the smartphone, they are showing very very little desire to integrate. So I think that there is both a qualitative and quantitive difference in what has happened recently.

That this demographic change has taken place against the will of the electorate in a nation that already had a housing crisis and creaking public services has turned what was always going to be a hairy experience into a total shitshow.

Do you have any data or further reading on that part in particular? I was reading something last night which suggested a large proportion of non-EU migrants* were people coming to study or work; of those studying, a much larger share than normal were switching to skilled worker visas and graduate visas by the end of the first yeart than we had seen at all prior to 2019. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... om-the-uk/ - it's an educational read.


* EU migration was net negative last year.

[Random1]

I was referring to the masculinity being deemed toxic point rather than fear of being labelled racist.



On the point about that fear of being seen as racist though, I'd expect that fear will have played some part. Clearly that is a problem. I'd suggest that it may be a little more complex than that though. If you had screwed up as badly as they did in both cases, fear of being seen as racist is probably a fairly convenient excuse to an extent as well.

I'd expect there was at least an element of not wanting the hassle and taking the chance that it's more likely that everything was above board in the case or the arena bombing anyway.

On the toxic masculinity side - now, don’t bite my head off; but this is the narrative;

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

‘Boys being boys’ behaviour is treated with Ritalin rather than discipline.

The meetoo movement went so far that someone touching a knee 30 years ago deserves public shaming and disciplinary action.

Men’s spaces are being eradicated which means that men can’t teach boys to be men away from women.

Traditional male approaches such as stoicism to mental health are now derided and now the approach to mental health doesn’t recognise the cognitive differences between men and women.

Men still do the vast majority of painful, dangerous jobs, yet all anyone talks about is the gender pay gap

For me, I can see how any one of those things can be seen as a storm in a tea cup, but all added together, plus other examples, and I can see why young men in particular are finding Andrew Tate at al alluring.

It is a very sad narrative that you describe and not one I recognize.

- examples of school curricula being feminised - I find this a very strange claim indeed.
- Boys being boys is usually shorthand for bullying behaviors and I am happy it is addressed, I dont know anyone on Ritalin
- Touching knee 30 years ago etc example isnt really true though is it, it tries to minimise the actual sexual abuse many women and men had to deal with 30 years ago, it was shameful then and is still shameful now and should be called out!
- Mens spaces are being eradicated - what? where? when? I played football, rugby, golf, etc and still drink in a few clubhouses and local pubs etc and most are still male spaces and none have been eradicated! However I do enjoy having drinks etc in a more inclusive environment as well.
- Stoicism to mental health helps explain why male suicide is the major cause of premature death in the under 50s and the rate is c3 times higher in men than it is in women. If you are suggesting this 'stoicism' is being derided then great as it aint working!
- Gender pay gap - you don't really understand this do you?

I sort of see the point you are trying to make but I am not sure my definition of masculinity is the same as yours? You're examples above certainly don't help your case.

Ok - I’ll take these one at a time, as I’m on a phone, so can’t manage it all at once.

1 - feminisation of school curricula.

Here’s a decent paper that went as evidence to parliament. It’s from a charity, but it has a comprehensive sources list for you, to look at the veracity of their paper.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... are%20male

Here’s a decent clipping, all supported by the Department of education statistics pages.

“The teaching workforce of England is predominantly female; 75.5% as at November 2021 (2021/22), up from 74.4% in 2010/11.
Only 35% of teachers in secondary school are male
14% of teachers in primary and nursery school are male
25% of teachers in Special or PRU schools are male
2-3% of teachers in Early Years’ education are male[2]

11. According to research from The Education Policy Institute/University of Essex in 2020[3]:

30% of primary schools in England have no male teacher
“The proportion of men in the school workforce from a BAME background (9.1 per cent) is gradually becoming more representative of the population (14 per cent).”
“This means that the fall in the number of male teachers has been driven by white males. Indeed, the number of white male secondary school teachers has fallen by over 12,800 since 2010, a fall of 17 per cent. This is an important consideration in areas where there is a prevalence of underperforming white working-class boys.””

This is a significant trend change, as the gender split was broadly equal in the 90s.

I’ll do some more later.

[Paddington Bear]

You said demographic transformation, so I assumed we were talking about more than just pure numbers of foreign immigration. Late 40s England wasn't exactly diverse, and there was a huge amount of influx from all over - a genuine demographic change. Can we say the same about the last decade, or is it just a shift in existing numbers? The largest ethnic group in that cohort is Indian, and we've gone from 1m to 1.8m in ~25 years - is that transformation?

I take (and see) your point. What I would say first is that net migration has been so high that the 2021 census is already out of date.

Also, and at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, India is a vast country with a wide range of people. Our established Indian population are well integrated, have very low levels of welfare dependency and high levels of academic achievement. The post-2019 arrivals are on the whole very clearly different; lower skilled, poorer English, having grown up in a nation that over a decade or so under Modi has become rampantly xenophobic, and with enough areas of Britain now with a plurality of Indian origin people and in the era of the smartphone, they are showing very very little desire to integrate. So I think that there is both a qualitative and quantitive difference in what has happened recently.

That this demographic change has taken place against the will of the electorate in a nation that already had a housing crisis and creaking public services has turned what was always going to be a hairy experience into a total shitshow.

Do you have any data or further reading on that part in particular? I was reading something last night which suggested a large proportion of non-EU migrants* were people coming to study or work; of those studying, a much larger share than normal were switching to skilled worker visas and graduate visas by the end of the first yeart than we had seen at all prior to 2019. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... om-the-uk/ - it's an educational read.


* EU migration was net negative last year.

Not to hand (on phone on heavily delayed train), what I would say however is I would take a look at what is on the skilled visa occupation list, you may be surprised at what we have opted to classify as skilled. Graduate visa is available to anyone who buys a one year masters from a shit tier university and does not require you to work in a graduate role.

You also have to bear in mind that we let in a lot of people on social care and graduate visas with dependents when analysing any cost/benefit analysis, as well as the paths through skilled worker/social care visas to ILR/citizenship.

My analysis of Indian attitudes is hard to put data points to, but comes from my own observations from:

1) reasonably regular trips to India over a c.15 year period and seeing that nation’s attitudes change almost entirely
2) living in a part of the world with a sizeable Indian community
3) as alluded to before, you can’t play club cricket on a circuit in and around north London without spending substantial amounts of time in an environment that is disproportionately south Asian.

In terms of political fallout from this, it needs to be borne in mind that Commonwealth citizens can vote from day dot in this country. There is a unstable combination of FPTP and both parties pandering to the worst instincts of various South Asian communities (Labour to Muslim cOmMuNiTy LeAdErS and the Tories to the BJP’s London fanbase) stopping these ethnic tensions becoming a significant factor in our politics, and I wonder given the decline of London’s white British voter base how much longer this line will hold.

[Paddington Bear]

Feminisation of the education sector is so blindingly obvious, it takes something akin to motivated reasoning to pretend it hasn’t happened.

And ‘boys will be boys’ doesn’t mean ‘let boys be dickheads’, it means boys need to burn off steam more than girls do, and schools in particular need to accommodate that. Rugby being an example of an excellent way to channel this.

My school would always schedule PE and games for the worst behaved classes as the first lesson of the day, for obvious reasons

[Tichtheid]

Feminisation of the education sector is so blindingly obvious, it takes something akin to motivated reasoning to pretend it hasn’t happened.

The quote was

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

School curricula are the subjects studied. Boyle's Law is Boyle's Law whether it's being taught by a man or a woman, same for any part of maths or sciences. Is the teaching of Shakespeare different now? If so how? Is the teaching of climate science at secondary level now feminised in some way?

[Paddington Bear]

Feminisation of the education sector is so blindingly obvious, it takes something akin to motivated reasoning to pretend it hasn’t happened.

The quote was

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

School curricula are the subjects studied. Boyle's Law is Boyle's Law whether it's being taught by a man or a woman, same for any part of maths or sciences. Is the teaching of Shakespeare different now? If so how? Is the teaching of climate science at secondary level now feminised in some way?

Taking a few examples, I think it’s reasonably obvious how the teaching of history, geography and English lit will be affected by the gender balance of those teaching it

[lemonhead]

On the toxic masculinity side - now, don’t bite my head off; but this is the narrative;

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

‘Boys being boys’ behaviour is treated with Ritalin rather than discipline.

The meetoo movement went so far that someone touching a knee 30 years ago deserves public shaming and disciplinary action.

Men’s spaces are being eradicated which means that men can’t teach boys to be men away from women.

Traditional male approaches such as stoicism to mental health are now derided and now the approach to mental health doesn’t recognise the cognitive differences between men and women.

Men still do the vast majority of painful, dangerous jobs, yet all anyone talks about is the gender pay gap

For me, I can see how any one of those things can be seen as a storm in a tea cup, but all added together, plus other examples, and I can see why young men in particular are finding Andrew Tate at al alluring.

It is a very sad narrative that you describe and not one I recognize.

- examples of school curricula being feminised - I find this a very strange claim indeed.
- Boys being boys is usually shorthand for bullying behaviors and I am happy it is addressed, I dont know anyone on Ritalin
- Touching knee 30 years ago etc example isnt really true though is it, it tries to minimise the actual sexual abuse many women and men had to deal with 30 years ago, it was shameful then and is still shameful now and should be called out!
- Mens spaces are being eradicated - what? where? when? I played football, rugby, golf, etc and still drink in a few clubhouses and local pubs etc and most are still male spaces and none have been eradicated! However I do enjoy having drinks etc in a more inclusive environment as well.
- Stoicism to mental health helps explain why male suicide is the major cause of premature death in the under 50s and the rate is c3 times higher in men than it is in women. If you are suggesting this 'stoicism' is being derided then great as it aint working!
- Gender pay gap - you don't really understand this do you?

I sort of see the point you are trying to make but I am not sure my definition of masculinity is the same as yours? You're examples above certainly don't help your case.

Ok - I’ll take these one at a time, as I’m on a phone, so can’t manage it all at once.

1 - feminisation of school curricula.

Here’s a decent paper that went as evidence to parliament. It’s from a charity, but it has a comprehensive sources list for you, to look at the veracity of their paper.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... are%20male

Here’s a decent clipping, all supported by the Department of education statistics pages.

“The teaching workforce of England is predominantly female; 75.5% as at November 2021 (2021/22), up from 74.4% in 2010/11.
Only 35% of teachers in secondary school are male
14% of teachers in primary and nursery school are male
25% of teachers in Special or PRU schools are male
2-3% of teachers in Early Years’ education are male[2]

11. According to research from The Education Policy Institute/University of Essex in 2020[3]:

30% of primary schools in England have no male teacher
“The proportion of men in the school workforce from a BAME background (9.1 per cent) is gradually becoming more representative of the population (14 per cent).”
“This means that the fall in the number of male teachers has been driven by white males. Indeed, the number of white male secondary school teachers has fallen by over 12,800 since 2010, a fall of 17 per cent. This is an important consideration in areas where there is a prevalence of underperforming white working-class boys.””

This is a significant trend change, as the gender split was broadly equal in the 90s.

I’ll do some more later.

Interesting paper. Two bits that stood out for me were that no one really has a clue why teaching numbers are dropping amongst white males, and secondly "The importance of positive male role models in the lives of boys and young men is crucial, even more so for those who do not have them in their home environment."

While I'd agree 100% with the above and the numbers require attention, the statement that 'curriculums have being feminized' seems to imply a hostile or in some way biased takeover of teaching delivery. Yes, you are more likely to have a female teacher. than 20 years ago. Does the fact they're not a white male inherently disadvantage white male students? I don't know that it automatically does.

If there's a dearth of positive male role models as the core issue I'd be more inclined to look at parenting first and ways to help families/dads from the off. Separate issue of course but that thumb does seem to be resting quite heavily on the scales here. You learn such a great deal about life and how to conduct it from your dad, then your brothers, your family group and friends, people of leadership in the community. School teachers, sports coaches etc should be a significant part of development for certain. But in an ideal world it's the icing, not the cake.

[Tichtheid]

Feminisation of the education sector is so blindingly obvious, it takes something akin to motivated reasoning to pretend it hasn’t happened.

The quote was

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

School curricula are the subjects studied. Boyle's Law is Boyle's Law whether it's being taught by a man or a woman, same for any part of maths or sciences. Is the teaching of Shakespeare different now? If so how? Is the teaching of climate science at secondary level now feminised in some way?

Taking a few examples, I think it’s reasonably obvious how the teaching of history, geography and English lit will be affected by the gender balance of those teaching it

It's not reasonably obvious to me, don't they work from textbooks and a prepared syllabus?

[JM2K6]

My history and English lit teachers at both boarding school and college were women, a long time ago. I honestly am struggling to understand the point being made there.

[Sandstorm]

Can we get the coke dealers in N England to sell Ritalin to these thugs instead?

[Paddington Bear]

The quote was



School curricula are the subjects studied. Boyle's Law is Boyle's Law whether it's being taught by a man or a woman, same for any part of maths or sciences. Is the teaching of Shakespeare different now? If so how? Is the teaching of climate science at secondary level now feminised in some way?

Taking a few examples, I think it’s reasonably obvious how the teaching of history, geography and English lit will be affected by the gender balance of those teaching it

It's not reasonably obvious to me, don't they work from textbooks and a prepared syllabus?

These are subjects in which what interests the teacher can massively slant how they are taught and therefore whose attention is grabbed and whose isn’t. As a general rule, gender can be pretty determinative of where your interests lie within those three subjects. So if you have far fewer men teaching the subject, you will have far fewer kids exposed to it being taught in a certain way.

[Tichtheid]

Taking a few examples, I think it’s reasonably obvious how the teaching of history, geography and English lit will be affected by the gender balance of those teaching it

It's not reasonably obvious to me, don't they work from textbooks and a prepared syllabus?

These are subjects in which what interests the teacher can massively slant how they are taught and therefore whose attention is grabbed and whose isn’t. As a general rule, gender can be pretty determinative of where your interests lie within those three subjects. So if you have far fewer men teaching the subject, you will have far fewer kids exposed to it being taught in a certain way.

The students are going to have to face an exam, the same exam that everyone else from other schools sit. The teacher will surely be more interested in their students gaining a good grade than imposing their own opinion against the grain of the syllabus?

Even if they are achieving good grades at school level by making "feminist" or feminised points, whatever that means and which I doubt, the goal of Eng Lit and History and the like at school level is to be able to make a reasoned case, backed up by obvious knowledge of the subject.

A quick google tells me that more boys take maths and sciences compared to girls

[yermum]

As someone with ADHD who takes stimulant medication.

Some of you are talking complete bollocks about the use of meds to control behaviour.

It’s a stupid stereotype that does harm to children whose parents feel there is a stigma attached to medication use in treating ADHD.

[Paddington Bear]

It's not reasonably obvious to me, don't they work from textbooks and a prepared syllabus?

These are subjects in which what interests the teacher can massively slant how they are taught and therefore whose attention is grabbed and whose isn’t. As a general rule, gender can be pretty determinative of where your interests lie within those three subjects. So if you have far fewer men teaching the subject, you will have far fewer kids exposed to it being taught in a certain way.

The students are going to have to face an exam, the same exam that everyone else from other schools sit. The teacher will surely be more interested in their students gaining a good grade than imposing their own opinion against the grain of the syllabus?

Even if they are achieving good grades at school level by making "feminist" or feminised points, whatever that means and which I doubt, the goal of Eng Lit and History and the like at school level is to be able to make a reasoned case, backed up by obvious knowledge of the subject.

A quick google tells me that more boys take maths and sciences compared to girls

Essay based subjects allow for greater scope in how they are taught. I.e. I was taught the Russian Revolution by an unreconstructed Bolshevik (as you can see we did not always see eye to eye). He was an excellent teacher, taught us the essay structure required for the exam, gave excellent feedback on our coursework and made it clear that Lenin and Trotsky were two of the greatest humans to ever walk the earth. That is of course not a universally accepted point of view and other teachers are available.

There are men who are unrequited Jane Austen lovers and women who could embarrass any pub bore with their knowledge of the workings of a mk.4 Spitfire, but don’t pretend that there isn’t a gendered factor to interest in both. A point I think you get given the point you make on boys vs girls in maths.

[Random1]

Feminisation of the education sector is so blindingly obvious, it takes something akin to motivated reasoning to pretend it hasn’t happened.

The quote was

Everything from school curricula through to football has been feminised

School curricula are the subjects studied. Boyle's Law is Boyle's Law whether it's being taught by a man or a woman, same for any part of maths or sciences. Is the teaching of Shakespeare different now? If so how? Is the teaching of climate science at secondary level now feminised in some way?

Ok - so, part of this comes down to whether you think boys and girls have different tendencies.

So, one area that I suggest is more feminine compared to the more masculine is that of emotional intelligence.

Females are usually more sensitive to emotions. Males less so. On average.

Schools teach emotional intelligence now. It’s also one of the reasons we end up with ‘everyone wins’ sport days.

Another example is the shift from exam only through to a higher amount of course work.

But I will hold my hands up - i used the word curriculum in the more Americany sense - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum where they see it as the totality of a student’s experience. Apologies, I defo deserve a slap for that!

[Tichtheid]

Essay based subjects allow for greater scope in how they are taught. I.e. I was taught the Russian Revolution by an unreconstructed Bolshevik (as you can see we did not always see eye to eye). He was an excellent teacher, taught us the essay structure required for the exam, gave excellent feedback on our coursework and made it clear that Lenin and Trotsky were two of the greatest humans to ever walk the earth. That is of course not a universally accepted point of view and other teachers are available.

There are men who are unrequited Jane Austen lovers and women who could embarrass any pub bore with their knowledge of the workings of a mk.4 Spitfire, but don’t pretend that there isn’t a gendered factor to interest in both. A point I think you get given the point you make on boys vs girls in maths.

I think you're straying off the subject here a bit. The subject is the feminisation of curricula in schools.

My initial point was that in Maths and Sciences it very difficult to see how that is possible. In essay based subjects I take the point implied that a good teacher can instil an interest in literature and in historical events by appealing to the particular students. Is there any evidence to suggest that teachers are targeting girls in a particular way and deliberately sidelining boys in English Lit and History etc?

I took a quick look and whilst Shakespeare is still very prominent in Eng Lit, the novels and dramas were split fairly evenly in terms of male and female writers.

[Paddington Bear]

Essay based subjects allow for greater scope in how they are taught. I.e. I was taught the Russian Revolution by an unreconstructed Bolshevik (as you can see we did not always see eye to eye). He was an excellent teacher, taught us the essay structure required for the exam, gave excellent feedback on our coursework and made it clear that Lenin and Trotsky were two of the greatest humans to ever walk the earth. That is of course not a universally accepted point of view and other teachers are available.

There are men who are unrequited Jane Austen lovers and women who could embarrass any pub bore with their knowledge of the workings of a mk.4 Spitfire, but don’t pretend that there isn’t a gendered factor to interest in both. A point I think you get given the point you make on boys vs girls in maths.

I think you're straying off the subject here a bit. The subject is the feminisation of curricula in schools.

My initial point was that in Maths and Sciences it very difficult to see how that is possible. In essay based subjects I take the point implied that a good teacher can instil an interest in literature and in historical events by appealing to the particular students. Is there any evidence to suggest that teachers are targeting girls in a particular way and deliberately sidelining boys in English Lit and History etc?

I took a quick look and whilst Shakespeare is still very prominent in Eng Lit, the novels and dramas were split fairly evenly in terms of male and female writers.

I agree on maths and science to a great extent, and also take Random’s position that ‘curriculum’ is meant in a wider context.

There’s no deliberate target on either side. A female teacher with a passion for English lit is likely to be passionate about different areas of it to a male one. Same on history etc. The consequences are real but accidental, and wouldn’t matter if teaching had a gender balance.

Shakespeare is just utterly butchered regardless of the gender of the teacher, I am fortunate my grandmother took me to see it performed rather than having just to read it in school as a teacher wangs on about iambic pentameter

[Tichtheid]

I can't find anything on how men and women teach differently, but I've only given it a cursory Google as I'm a bit stretched for time.

Is there anything available to read on it?

[Paddington Bear]

I can't find anything on how men and women teach differently, but I've only given it a cursory Google as I'm a bit stretched for time.

Is there anything available to read on it?

Whilst there may be, that’s not what I’ve said!

[Tichtheid]

I can't find anything on how men and women teach differently, but I've only given it a cursory Google as I'm a bit stretched for time.

Is there anything available to read on it?

Whilst there may be, that’s not what I’ve said!

It's exactly what you said

A female teacher with a passion for English lit is likely to be passionate about different areas of it to a male one.

It could be different from one person to the next, but you explicitly mentioned male and female as being the reason for any likely difference .

[Paddington Bear]

I can't find anything on how men and women teach differently, but I've only given it a cursory Google as I'm a bit stretched for time.

Is there anything available to read on it?

Whilst there may be, that’s not what I’ve said!

It's exactly what you said

A female teacher with a passion for English lit is likely to be passionate about different areas of it to a male one.

It could be different from one person to the next, but you explicitly mentioned male and female as being the reason for any likely difference .

No it isn’t but this is pointless. I’ve made my point, you’ve made yours and actually we seem to agree on large elements of this so I’m leaving this strand alone.