Angry White Men

[Random1]

Whilst there may be, that’s not what I’ve said!

It's exactly what you said

A female teacher with a passion for English lit is likely to be passionate about different areas of it to a male one.

It could be different from one person to the next, but you explicitly mentioned male and female as being the reason for any likely difference .

No it isn’t but this is pointless. I’ve made my point, you’ve made yours and actually we seem to agree on large elements of this so I’m leaving this strand alone.

Erm, just a heads up - I was responding to this PB post and pressed submit and it then said I’d successfully reported the post. My only defence is that I’m posting using a phone whilst managing a 5 and 3 year old!

[Tichtheid]

Whilst there may be, that’s not what I’ve said!

It's exactly what you said

A female teacher with a passion for English lit is likely to be passionate about different areas of it to a male one.

It could be different from one person to the next, but you explicitly mentioned male and female as being the reason for any likely difference .

No it isn’t but this is pointless. I’ve made my point, you’ve made yours and actually we seem to agree on large elements of this so I’m leaving this strand alone.

That's actually quite funny. The reason "we agree" on large elements is because your hypothesis and that of Random1 fell apart at the first hint of scrutiny, ie Maths and Sciences and anything else like programming and IT aren't really subject to "feminisation".

Then the definition of curriculum was expanded to mean more than syllabus and when asked for evidence that teachers in the humanities teach different syllabuses depending on whether the teacher is a man or a woman a retreat was called.

It's quite possible that male and female teachers do teach differently, I just haven't been able to find anything beyond opinion here that says so.

[Biffer]

It's exactly what you said



It could be different from one person to the next, but you explicitly mentioned male and female as being the reason for any likely difference .

No it isn’t but this is pointless. I’ve made my point, you’ve made yours and actually we seem to agree on large elements of this so I’m leaving this strand alone.

That's actually quite funny. The reason "we agree" on large elements is because your hypothesis and that of Random1 fell apart at the first hint of scrutiny, ie Maths and Sciences and anything else like programming and IT aren't really subject to "feminisation".

Then the definition of curriculum was expanded to mean more than syllabus and when asked for evidence that teachers in the humanities teach different syllabuses depending on whether the teacher is a man or a woman a retreat was called.

It's quite possible that male and female teachers do teach differently, I just haven't been able to find anything beyond opinion here that says so.

I don't think there's any feminisation of the curriculum, but all female teachers mean that there are sometimes no male figures of authority in some kids lives.

[Tichtheid]

I don't think there's any feminisation of the curriculum, but all female teachers mean that there are sometimes no male figures of authority in some kids lives.

Yeah, but does that mean then that those without male authority figures act differently to those who have them?

[Sandstorm]

I don't think there's any feminisation of the curriculum, but all female teachers mean that there are sometimes no male figures of authority in some kids lives.

Yeah, but does that mean then that those without male authority figures act differently to those who have them?

Those kids probably can’t tell a good joke.

[JM2K6]

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

Hang on, the riots started because fucking idiots had been primed to believe that a Muslim refugee had murdered some kids, not some non-Muslim bloke who was born and raised in Wales. It's extremely important that we don't rewrite the facts, they had no clue who he was or what his status was, just that he wasn't white. His dad was an asylum seeker from Rwanda and moved to the UK in 2002 - 22 years ago! - and a Christian, not a Muslim. The killer himself is a Brit. These are all important facts that made absolutely no difference to the baying mob, because they had been lied to about something and a non-white attacker was all it took. They had been given false information - false name, false nationality, false religion, false immigration status - and acted on that. You cannot point to the made-up version they were rampaging over as if it were the real thing.

As for the guy killed in Kent, I will admit that it had passed me by. I have read up on it since - it's pretty awful stuff, but there's some strange aspects to it. First, he was remanded in custody "for his own protection", which apparently is a euphemistic way of saying he has serious mental health problems, and secondly, and importantly, the victim is stable in hospital and wasn't actually killed after all, which I guess is a good way of showing how easily misinformation can spread.

I am pretty chilled by the casual way in which the claim of an issue of deadly violence against white Brits is made. There have been quite a few strange claims in this thread where opinion is being passed off as cold hard fact, but we do actually have some data here. Most murders of women are committed by partners, overwhelmingly occuring in the home. Most murders of men are committed by people they know, though about equal with the ones where no motive has been discerned. Black people are overwhemingly overrepresented in the stats both as victims of homicide from Apr 2017 to Mar 2023, with "white" and "other" tracking each other closely.

Of 686 white victims from March 2021 to March 2023, 584 had white suspects, 49 black suspect, and 50 other (3 not known). So 85% white suspects / 15% non-white.
Of 153 black victims, 31 white suspects, 98 black, 23 other; that's 64% black suspects, 20% white suspects, 15% other.
121 "other" victims, 39 white suspects, 20 black, 60 other; that's 49.5% other, 16.5% black, 32% white.

Those stats tell a very different story IMO.

Of course, the real problem here is that people believe a thing to be true and are moved to act on that information. That is what really matters. The question, as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, is about the role of misinformation and disinformation & the bad actors who utilise both to foment violence.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

Out of curiosity, just so I can understand better what you're saying here - what does "racially based killing" mean in this context? I haven't followed the case exhaustively, has it been determined this was a racial crime? Or is this just a way of saying there is a mismatch between the ethnicity of the victim and the attacker?

[Biffer]

I don't think there's any feminisation of the curriculum, but all female teachers mean that there are sometimes no male figures of authority in some kids lives.

Yeah, but does that mean then that those without male authority figures act differently to those who have them?

It's a hypothesis that some people have put forward.

[Jock42]

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

Hang on, the riots started because fucking idiots had been primed to believe that a Muslim refugee had murdered some kids, not some non-Muslim bloke who was born and raised in Wales. It's extremely important that we don't rewrite the facts, they had no clue who he was or what his status was, just that he wasn't white. His dad was an asylum seeker from Rwanda and moved to the UK in 2002 - 22 years ago! - and a Christian, not a Muslim. The killer himself is a Brit. These are all important facts that made absolutely no difference to the baying mob, because they had been lied to about something and a non-white attacker was all it took. They had been given false information - false name, false nationality, false religion, false immigration status - and acted on that. You cannot point to the made-up version they were rampaging over as if it were the real thing.

As for the guy killed in Kent, I will admit that it had passed me by. I have read up on it since - it's pretty awful stuff, but there's some strange aspects to it. First, he was remanded in custody "for his own protection", which apparently is a euphemistic way of saying he has serious mental health problems, and secondly, and importantly, the victim is stable in hospital and wasn't actually killed after all, which I guess is a good way of showing how easily misinformation can spread.

I am pretty chilled by the casual way in which the claim of an issue of deadly violence against white Brits is made. There have been quite a few strange claims in this thread where opinion is being passed off as cold hard fact, but we do actually have some data here. Most murders of women are committed by partners, overwhelmingly occuring in the home. Most murders of men are committed by people they know, though about equal with the ones where no motive has been discerned. Black people are overwhemingly overrepresented in the stats both as victims of homicide from Apr 2017 to Mar 2023, with "white" and "other" tracking each other closely.

Of 686 white victims from March 2021 to March 2023, 584 had white suspects, 49 black suspect, and 50 other (3 not known). So 85% white suspects / 15% non-white.
Of 153 black victims, 31 white suspects, 98 black, 23 other; that's 64% black suspects, 20% white suspects, 15% other.
121 "other" victims, 39 white suspects, 20 black, 60 other; that's 49.5% other, 16.5% black, 32% white.

Those stats tell a very different story IMO.

Of course, the real problem here is that people believe a thing to be true and are moved to act on that information. That is what really matters. The question, as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, is about the role of misinformation and disinformation & the bad actors who utilise both to foment violence.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

Out of curiosity, just so I can understand better what you're saying here - what does "racially based killing" mean in this context? I haven't followed the case exhaustively, has it been determined this was a racial crime? Or is this just a way of saying there is a mismatch between the ethnicity of the victim and the attacker?

I'm still very cynical about a British soldier in uniform being brutally stabbed by a guy with several blades on the day Anjem Choudray is found guilty is all mental health.

[Guy Smiley]

Australia has revised its terror alert level from 'possible' to 'probable' amid reports the national security intelligence org has intercepted 8 seperate terror threats in recent months. The major threat is Right wing terror incidents...

yer avridge angry white man sort of thing.

[Dogbert]

We should care about both. Not to labour the point but these riots started because the child of an asylum seeker murdered white children in cold blood, a week or so after a man who I understand was born in Nigeria stabbed an army officer to death in cold blood in Kent. Clearly there is an issue of deadly violence against white Brits, in the same way that there is an issue of mob violence by white Brits towards Muslims in particular.

Hang on, the riots started because fucking idiots had been primed to believe that a Muslim refugee had murdered some kids, not some non-Muslim bloke who was born and raised in Wales. It's extremely important that we don't rewrite the facts, they had no clue who he was or what his status was, just that he wasn't white. His dad was an asylum seeker from Rwanda and moved to the UK in 2002 - 22 years ago! - and a Christian, not a Muslim. The killer himself is a Brit. These are all important facts that made absolutely no difference to the baying mob, because they had been lied to about something and a non-white attacker was all it took. They had been given false information - false name, false nationality, false religion, false immigration status - and acted on that. You cannot point to the made-up version they were rampaging over as if it were the real thing.

As for the guy killed in Kent, I will admit that it had passed me by. I have read up on it since - it's pretty awful stuff, but there's some strange aspects to it. First, he was remanded in custody "for his own protection", which apparently is a euphemistic way of saying he has serious mental health problems, and secondly, and importantly, the victim is stable in hospital and wasn't actually killed after all, which I guess is a good way of showing how easily misinformation can spread.

I am pretty chilled by the casual way in which the claim of an issue of deadly violence against white Brits is made. There have been quite a few strange claims in this thread where opinion is being passed off as cold hard fact, but we do actually have some data here. Most murders of women are committed by partners, overwhelmingly occuring in the home. Most murders of men are committed by people they know, though about equal with the ones where no motive has been discerned. Black people are overwhemingly overrepresented in the stats both as victims of homicide from Apr 2017 to Mar 2023, with "white" and "other" tracking each other closely.

Of 686 white victims from March 2021 to March 2023, 584 had white suspects, 49 black suspect, and 50 other (3 not known). So 85% white suspects / 15% non-white.
Of 153 black victims, 31 white suspects, 98 black, 23 other; that's 64% black suspects, 20% white suspects, 15% other.
121 "other" victims, 39 white suspects, 20 black, 60 other; that's 49.5% other, 16.5% black, 32% white.

Those stats tell a very different story IMO.

Of course, the real problem here is that people believe a thing to be true and are moved to act on that information. That is what really matters. The question, as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, is about the role of misinformation and disinformation & the bad actors who utilise both to foment violence.

If we do nothing, speak in euphemisms and platitudes and far more heavily police one side we’ll be back here again the next time there is a racially based killing.

Out of curiosity, just so I can understand better what you're saying here - what does "racially based killing" mean in this context? I haven't followed the case exhaustively, has it been determined this was a racial crime? Or is this just a way of saying there is a mismatch between the ethnicity of the victim and the attacker?

I'm still very cynical about a British soldier in uniform being brutally stabbed by a guy with several blades on the day Anjem Choudray is found guilty is all mental health.

Is there any evidence that Anthony Esan is a muslim ?

[JM2K6]

I can understand the cynicism, but it's based off of pure vibes at this point. I would wager that had it been motivated by Choudry, this would be being reported very differently, but that is just educated guesswork.

[dpedin]

I don't think there's any feminisation of the curriculum, but all female teachers mean that there are sometimes no male figures of authority in some kids lives.

Yeah, but does that mean then that those without male authority figures act differently to those who have them?

It's a hypothesis that some people have put forward.

Been too busy playing golf and having a risqué joke in the bar after with my male golfing colleagues afterwards to have time to participate in the debate but I am glad others have done the job for me.

So there doesn't appear to have been any 'feminisation of the curricula' then but there are more female than male teachers now than 30 years ago - we all agree with this albeit dont agree with the impact it has on the education process and outcomes.

I have sympathy with the view that boys lack 'good' role models in their lives and perhaps in the past male teachers helped to partly address this gap. I agree with the proposition that providing a positive image of a man in a role like teaching or nursing encourages others to strive to do the same. It is a bit similar to the growth in womens football and the players acting as role models for the huge increase in numbers of women teams and players in what for many years has been regarded as an exclusively male world.

[dpedin]

Hang on, the riots started because fucking idiots had been primed to believe that a Muslim refugee had murdered some kids, not some non-Muslim bloke who was born and raised in Wales. It's extremely important that we don't rewrite the facts, they had no clue who he was or what his status was, just that he wasn't white. His dad was an asylum seeker from Rwanda and moved to the UK in 2002 - 22 years ago! - and a Christian, not a Muslim. The killer himself is a Brit. These are all important facts that made absolutely no difference to the baying mob, because they had been lied to about something and a non-white attacker was all it took. They had been given false information - false name, false nationality, false religion, false immigration status - and acted on that. You cannot point to the made-up version they were rampaging over as if it were the real thing.

As for the guy killed in Kent, I will admit that it had passed me by. I have read up on it since - it's pretty awful stuff, but there's some strange aspects to it. First, he was remanded in custody "for his own protection", which apparently is a euphemistic way of saying he has serious mental health problems, and secondly, and importantly, the victim is stable in hospital and wasn't actually killed after all, which I guess is a good way of showing how easily misinformation can spread.

I am pretty chilled by the casual way in which the claim of an issue of deadly violence against white Brits is made. There have been quite a few strange claims in this thread where opinion is being passed off as cold hard fact, but we do actually have some data here. Most murders of women are committed by partners, overwhelmingly occuring in the home. Most murders of men are committed by people they know, though about equal with the ones where no motive has been discerned. Black people are overwhemingly overrepresented in the stats both as victims of homicide from Apr 2017 to Mar 2023, with "white" and "other" tracking each other closely.

Of 686 white victims from March 2021 to March 2023, 584 had white suspects, 49 black suspect, and 50 other (3 not known). So 85% white suspects / 15% non-white.
Of 153 black victims, 31 white suspects, 98 black, 23 other; that's 64% black suspects, 20% white suspects, 15% other.
121 "other" victims, 39 white suspects, 20 black, 60 other; that's 49.5% other, 16.5% black, 32% white.

Those stats tell a very different story IMO.

Of course, the real problem here is that people believe a thing to be true and are moved to act on that information. That is what really matters. The question, as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, is about the role of misinformation and disinformation & the bad actors who utilise both to foment violence.



Out of curiosity, just so I can understand better what you're saying here - what does "racially based killing" mean in this context? I haven't followed the case exhaustively, has it been determined this was a racial crime? Or is this just a way of saying there is a mismatch between the ethnicity of the victim and the attacker?

I'm still very cynical about a British soldier in uniform being brutally stabbed by a guy with several blades on the day Anjem Choudray is found guilty is all mental health.

Is there any evidence that Anthony Esan is a muslim ?

Oh for goodness sake don't let facts and figures get in the way of some good old deliberate misinformation and 'reason' for a racist riot! Just sit back and await the Telegram message from Cyprus for instructions is a far easier option!

[Jock42]

I can understand the cynicism, but it's based off of pure vibes at this point. I would wager that had it been motivated by Choudry, this would be being reported very differently, but that is just educated guesswork.

I'm not so sure. The authorities were very quick to state the cunt in Southport was British and went to a Christian school in order to try to avoid the shite we've seen. I've not seen anything about Esan's religion.

[JM2K6]

Not sure whether male teachers would've prevented a mob from setting fire to a building full of asylum seekers, or changed their many online supporters baying for blood (including small business owners, Tory councillors wives, etc) but hey maybe we'll find the right answer somewhere as long as we take everything at face value and ignore the impact of decades long disinformation campaigns

[JM2K6]

I can understand the cynicism, but it's based off of pure vibes at this point. I would wager that had it been motivated by Choudry, this would be being reported very differently, but that is just educated guesswork.

I'm not so sure. The authorities were very quick to state the cunt in Southport was British and went to a Christian school in order to try to avoid the shite we've seen. I've not seen anything about Esan's religion.

Because conspiracy theories had led to violent riots. There was a need to release that information. Was it the same with Esan?

[Jock42]

I can understand the cynicism, but it's based off of pure vibes at this point. I would wager that had it been motivated by Choudry, this would be being reported very differently, but that is just educated guesswork.

I'm not so sure. The authorities were very quick to state the cunt in Southport was British and went to a Christian school in order to try to avoid the shite we've seen. I've not seen anything about Esan's religion.

Because conspiracy theories had led to violent riots. There was a need to release that information. Was it the same with Esan?

I've seen plenty of fuckwits using his nationality as an excuse for rioting. Admittedly not in the immediate aftermath.

[Slick]

Not sure whether male teachers would've prevented a mob from setting fire to a building full of asylum seekers, or changed their many online supporters baying for blood (including small business owners, Tory councillors wives, etc) but hey maybe we'll find the right answer somewhere as long as we take everything at face value and ignore the impact of decades long disinformation campaigns

Do you not think that many of these people having a male influence outside of their fucked up family homes or down the pub could make a difference? I think it's blindingly obvious that it would. Saying that more male teachers would help isn't criticising female teachers.

[JM2K6]

Not sure whether male teachers would've prevented a mob from setting fire to a building full of asylum seekers, or changed their many online supporters baying for blood (including small business owners, Tory councillors wives, etc) but hey maybe we'll find the right answer somewhere as long as we take everything at face value and ignore the impact of decades long disinformation campaigns

Do you not think that many of these people having a male influence outside of their fucked up family homes or down the pub could make a difference? I think it's blindingly obvious that it would. Saying that more male teachers would help isn't criticising female teachers.

I think it's extremely far down the list.

[Slick]

Not sure whether male teachers would've prevented a mob from setting fire to a building full of asylum seekers, or changed their many online supporters baying for blood (including small business owners, Tory councillors wives, etc) but hey maybe we'll find the right answer somewhere as long as we take everything at face value and ignore the impact of decades long disinformation campaigns

Do you not think that many of these people having a male influence outside of their fucked up family homes or down the pub could make a difference? I think it's blindingly obvious that it would. Saying that more male teachers would help isn't criticising female teachers.

I think it's extremely far down the list.

Fair enough. If you listen to any anti-knife crime groups talking about black communities in London it's always up near the top of their list, as an example.

[JM2K6]

I'm not so sure. The authorities were very quick to state the cunt in Southport was British and went to a Christian school in order to try to avoid the shite we've seen. I've not seen anything about Esan's religion.

Because conspiracy theories had led to violent riots. There was a need to release that information. Was it the same with Esan?

I've seen plenty of fuckwits using his nationality as an excuse for rioting. Admittedly not in the immediate aftermath.

Because he's not a Brit, right? So what would be the point of releasing his religious affiliation? If he is a Muslim and they've decided it has nothing to do his crime, it's just pointlessly inflammatory. If he isn't and people aren't rioting over his alleged ties to Islam, what's the point?

Given that Nigeria is split evenly between Christians and Muslims, his nationality doesn't tell you anything about his religious beliefs.

[Calculon]

I don't think there's any feminisation of the curriculum, but all female teachers mean that there are sometimes no male figures of authority in some kids lives.

Yeah, but does that mean then that those without male authority figures act differently to those who have them?

Some male students tend to be more than unruly with female teachers who struggle to discipline them. This has negative consequences for those students

[JM2K6]

Do you not think that many of these people having a male influence outside of their fucked up family homes or down the pub could make a difference? I think it's blindingly obvious that it would. Saying that more male teachers would help isn't criticising female teachers.

I think it's extremely far down the list.

Fair enough. If you listen to any anti-knife crime groups talking about black communities in London it's always up near the top of their list, as an example.

Yes, I can understand that. I also don't think the problems with young black people getting into gangs and being involved in knife crime is the same as the far right riots we've seen in the last week, which is why I don't think "too many female teachers giving their versions of history and geography" makes the slightest difference here.

Decades of the the daily mail, the sun, and the express dripping hate via the front pages, an emboldened far right leadership getting platforms on social media, major politicians toying with and encouraging far right views, GB News and Talk TV, an increasing amount of dehumanising language and deliberate stoking of hate against immigrants and anyone who might help them - these all have a much much bigger role to play than the numbers of male teachers.

[I like neeps]

Because conspiracy theories had led to violent riots. There was a need to release that information. Was it the same with Esan?

I've seen plenty of fuckwits using his nationality as an excuse for rioting. Admittedly not in the immediate aftermath.

Because he's not a Brit, right? So what would be the point of releasing his religious affiliation? If he is a Muslim and they've decided it has nothing to do his crime, it's just pointlessly inflammatory. If he isn't and people aren't rioting over his alleged ties to Islam, what's the point?

Given that Nigeria is split evenly between Christians and Muslims, his nationality doesn't tell you anything about his religious beliefs.

Esan is a Christian name and he's from a Christian part of Nigeria.

And he didn't shout any Allahu Akhbars when stabbing the soldier.

Very unlikely he's Muslim extremist.

[Jock42]

Because conspiracy theories had led to violent riots. There was a need to release that information. Was it the same with Esan?

I've seen plenty of fuckwits using his nationality as an excuse for rioting. Admittedly not in the immediate aftermath.

Because he's not a Brit, right? So what would be the point of releasing his religious affiliation? If he is a Muslim and they've decided it has nothing to do his crime, it's just pointlessly inflammatory. If he isn't and people aren't rioting over his alleged ties to Islam, what's the point?

Given that Nigeria is split evenly between Christians and Muslims, his nationality doesn't tell you anything about his religious beliefs.

Aye they're fair points.

[Slick]

I think it's extremely far down the list.

Fair enough. If you listen to any anti-knife crime groups talking about black communities in London it's always up near the top of their list, as an example.

Yes, I can understand that. I also don't think the problems with young black people getting into gangs and being involved in knife crime is the same as the far right riots we've seen in the last week, which is why I don't think "too many female teachers giving their versions of history and geography" makes the slightest difference here.

Decades of the the daily mail, the sun, and the express dripping hate via the front pages, an emboldened far right leadership getting platforms on social media, major politicians toying with and encouraging far right views, GB News and Talk TV, an increasing amount of dehumanising language and deliberate stoking of hate against immigrants and anyone who might help them - these all have a much much bigger role to play than the numbers of male teachers.

OK. I think it’s pretty similar, just a vastly different scale

[tabascoboy]

Would be interesting I'm sure to know profiles and personal details of all those convicted, e.g. occupations, marital status, previous convictions, known political affiliations etc. My guess is that they are not exactly upstanding citizens who just "flipped out" because of the murders.

[fishfoodie]

Would be interesting I'm sure to know profiles and personal details of all those convicted, e.g. occupations, marital status, previous convictions, known political affiliations etc. My guess is that they are not exactly upstanding citizens who just "flipped out" because of the murders.

I assume they identify as "men", because there's SFA manly about them !

I hope they also have permanent travel orders on them so they can never, ever travel out of the UK again.

Left them feel consequences for the rest of their lives.

[Hal Jordan]

Would be interesting I'm sure to know profiles and personal details of all those convicted, e.g. occupations, marital status, previous convictions, known political affiliations etc. My guess is that they are not exactly upstanding citizens who just "flipped out" because of the murders.

Why does the middle one have a neck tattoo of what appears to be Gollum?

[epwc]

I thought that was Gollum on the right?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Another chance to lament our prisons have little if nothing to do/say about rehabilitation owing to their overcrowding and lack of funding and strategy, because whilst I've nothing against jailing these fine folk I'm not convinced 1-2 years of being abused/radicalised is quite the progress I'd like

[Hal Jordan]

Meanwhile, the transvestigators have turned their attention to...Andrew Tate.

[fishfoodie]

Meanwhile, the transvestigators have turned their attention to...Andrew Tate.

Presumably his bail conditions say something about not committing any criminal offences ?

So just request his extradition, & then let the Romanians bang him up in one of their excellent prisons, & make as many mistakes in the paperwork as necessary to keep him there for the next six months, off SM !

[Tichtheid]

The fascist thugs are coming to Brighton tonight. Shops and businesses are closing early and spending a fair bit of money on boarding up.

Bastards

[epwc]

They’re supposed to be going to Whitechapel tonight, it’ll definitely kick off if they do

[tabascoboy]

#FarageRiots

[weegie01]

I am late to the party here so this has probably been said but I don't have time to read the entire thread and tease out the different debates.

The numerically largest group of disdvantaged people in the UK are white working class males. That is not to say other groups are not disadvantaged, or that people from other ehnicities are not disadvantaged to the same degree. This is still a substantially ethnically white country and sheer weight of numbers means these are numerically the largest group of disadvantaged people.

The low skilled jobs they once did have largely disappeared. So we get famillies where not only are people worse off than their forebears, they see no way out of the situation. This would have happened regardless of immigration. But as those jobs have disappeared, immigration happened. It can't be denied that some of the jobs that were left were taken up by immigrants prepared to take less money and work in poorer conditions, but there was no overall cause and effect between immigration and the mass disappearance of those low skilled jobs.

Notwithstanding the above, they need to find someone to blame for their diminshed situation so that link is made. The 'other' has always been a convenient scapegoat and so rather than blame the fact that it is their lack of fitness for jobs in a modern economy, the 'other', in this case immigrants, are blamed.

The tyranny of averages says that the white population is on average better off, and it is the other population groups that need help. This is seen by disadvantaged whites as unfair partly because some of these minorities are clearly more prosperous than they are, and partly because they see it as unfair that other disadvantaged minorities get help they feel denied. This does not need to be true to be a powerful influence and for them to feel there is a systemic bias against them.

In short, there is a large group in this country who have been left behind. Society has become more unequal, both by the well off moving more in one direction and by the poorer moving in the other. A large part of the population feels left behind, excluded, discriminated against and sees no way out. At the same time this was happening, immigration ramped up so the causal link is made even if untrue. They cleave to simplistic populist rhetoric giving facile answers and solutions, they lash out, and as they need a target to lash out against, it is 'other' pointed to by the populists that are that target, whether or not there is any reason or logic behind it. They are suffering, someone else must be to blame and they will exact retribution.

[Tichtheid]

I am late to the party here so this has probably been said but I don't have time to read the entire thread and tease out the different debates.

The numerically largest group of disdvantaged people in the UK are white working class males. That is not to say other groups are not disadvantaged, or that people from other ehnicities are not disadvantaged to the same degree. This is still a substantially ethnically white country and sheer weight of numbers means these are numerically the largest group of disadvantaged people.

The low skilled jobs they once did have largely disappeared. So we get famillies where not only are people worse off than their forebears, they see no way out of the situation. This would have happened regardless of immigration. But as those jobs have disappeared, immigration happened. It can't be denied that some of the jobs that were left were taken up by immigrants prepared to take less money and work in poorer conditions, but there was no overall cause and effect between immigration and the mass disappearance of those low skilled jobs.

Notwithstanding the above, they need to find someone to blame for their diminshed situation so that link is made. The 'other' has always been a convenient scapegoat and so rather than blame the fact that it is their lack of fitness for jobs in a modern economy, the 'other', in this case immigrants, are blamed.

The tyranny of averages says that the white population is on average better off, and it is the other population groups that need help. This is seen by disadvantaged whites as unfair partly because some of these minorities are clearly more prosperous than they are, and partly because they see it as unfair that other disadvantaged minorities get help they feel denied. This does not need to be true to be a powerful influence and for them to feel there is a systemic bias against them.

In short, there is a large group in this country who have been left behind. Society has become more unequal, both by the well off moving more in one direction and by the poorer moving in the other. A large part of the population feels left behind, excluded, discriminated against and sees no way out. At the same time this was happening, immigration ramped up so the causal link is made even if untrue. They cleave to simplistic populist rhetoric giving facile answers and solutions, they lash out, and as they need a target to lash out against, it is 'other' pointed to by the populists that are that target, whether or not there is any reason or logic behind it. They are suffering, someone else must be to blame and they will exact retribution.

I think that is mostly true and you're right it's been said already, albeit in slightly different ways.

It's also been said that the people who are being blamed are not the ones at fault - the people coming over the channel on rubber rings at night are not at fault for job losses in the steel industry or manufacturing or any other sector, nor are the people coming here by legitimate means.

For the record I've done these low and unskilled jobs, when I was eleven years old I walked through cereal fields as part of a group of kids, picking weeds, "roguing" it was called. I've swept the floor in a cement factory and picked vegetables in the fields around it. I've gutted fish for eight hours a day, I've laboured on huge building sites, well probably just the one to be honest and I've cut firewood for a living and all manner of other jobs.

These jobs were available to me because I lived in a rural area and after you've asked for the gaffer and blagged your way into a job once, you can do it again and again, or you get another start by word of mouth, often down the pub.

I can understand the frustration at being in a dole rut, I've been there myself, I had to move to France to get work - oh the hardship, I know, and yes I was a migrant worker! I'm kind of losing my point now, but it's really that being in a dole rut in the middle of Manchester is not the same as being in one in the countryside, maybe that is part of why I would never blame a foreigner who picks sprouts for whatever circumstance I'm in - but is it people on the dole from city centres who are travelling to other cities and rioting?

[Hugo]

I'm not sure what thread this belongs in - could be many I suppose - but another general problem (specific to social media/media) is Piers Morgan.

I honestly despise the bloke with an absolute passion. Whenever there is a big issue (national or international) he throws his weight around opining on stuff in an utterly obnoxious fashion.

It is so lamentable that a tabloid hack with no real expertise of anything he talks about has positioned himself to be some kind of authority on current affairs.

[laurent]

I'm not sure what thread this belongs in - could be many I suppose - but another general problem (specific to social media/media) is Piers Morgan.

I honestly despise the bloke with an absolute passion. Whenever there is a big issue (national or international) he throws his weight around opining on stuff in an utterly obnoxious fashion.

It is so lamentable that a tabloid hack with no real expertise of anything he talks about has positioned himself to be some kind of authority on current affairs.

Our Own piece of garbage is Pascal Praud.

ex sport journalist now bitching and moaning about anything on Cnews and Europe1
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