England vs All Blacks + Munster vs ABs XV

[charltom]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 29qx5e6plo

Big Joe says the Haka needs binning. I used to think it an impressive spectacle but I think I agree with him.

I think they (all teams wanting to do a haka or similar) ought to have to choose between haka and national anthem, not have both. Remove the "unfair advantage."

[epwc]

I think they (all teams wanting to do a haka or similar) ought to have to choose between haka and national anthem, not have both. Remove the "unfair advantage."

I think that would be fairer than what happens now

[inactionman]

The stand-off in Cardiff a few years back about whether Land of My Fathers or the Haka goes last was pretty unsavoury.

I think they ended up doing the haka in the changing rooms.

Could do without all that.

[sockwithaticket]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

because when they clip a game up it's consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular clip from a given game on social media. which might say much for rugby that what the casual fan wants to watch isn't even part of the actual playing of the game

viewer participation and engagement are among the most loved things by the IRB, especially with young people on social media, so the haka gets as much protection as it wants

[Sandstorm]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

because when they clip a game up it's consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular clip from a given game on social media. which might say much for rugby that what the casual fan wants to watch isn't even part of the actual playing of the game

viewer participation and engagement are among the most loved things by the IRB, especially with young people on social media, so the haka gets as much protection as it wants

Indeed and it's also infinitely more interesting than the Aussie Indigenous pre-match wailing.

[sockwithaticket]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

because when they clip a game up it's consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular clip from a given game on social media. which might say much for rugby that what the casual fan wants to watch isn't even part of the actual playing of the game

viewer participation and engagement are among the most loved things by the IRB, especially with young people on social media, so the haka gets as much protection as it wants

That explains why the haka is important to broadcasters and perhaps World Rugby, but it doesn't really explain why the Kiwis threw their toys out of the pram about being asked to do it before the home team's anthem and why everyone just has to accept them doing it as the most immediate act before kick off. A clip of the haka is a clip of the haka, whether it was performed before the host anthem makes no difference to the broadcaster's ability to clip and share it on social media.

[Sandstorm]

The issue for me with a back-rower at 12 is that he'll always truck the ball up into contact, whereas a regular 12 (not named De Allende) will sometimes notice the space out wide and give the pass to the 13 beside him.

If it's an English 12 like Slade, the alternative to taking contact is invariably to kick the ball away. Passing to the 13 is generally the last option.

[Enzedder]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

See, that's the problem right there. Too many northerners just think it's a silly dance.

It isn't and you really should educate yourselves if you want to comment with any sense.

[inactionman]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

See, that's the problem right there. Too many northerners just think it's a silly dance.

It isn't and you really should educate yourselves if you want to comment with any sense.

I've no problem with it perse, but insisting it takes top billing from the host's national anthem - and spitting the dummy when refused - is not acceptable.

[Enzedder]

Interesting that they are still plugging Mackenzie, even for a bench space. I am thinking that his boat has sailed after last week.

England coach Steve Borthwick has played his cards.

His All Blacks counterpart, Scott Robertson, will respond with his playing 23 in the early hours of Friday morning (NZT).

Look beyond the stack of changes expected on the back of stop-over game against Japan in Yokohama, and there’s some big calls to be made ahead of Sunday morning’s clash at London’s Twickenham Stadium.

Here are the key talking points ahead of Friday morning’s (12.30am) team naming.

Who starts at No 10?
It’s been a rather straight forward question much of the year, with Damian McKenzie starting all but one test at first five-eighth during Scott Robertson’s first year in charge.

That includes last weekend’s test in Yokohama, both matches against England on New Zealand soil in July, and the crunch Rugby Championship fixtures against the Springboks in South Africa.

However, it was Beauden Barrett who Robertson turned to in the final Bledisloe Cup test last month, after a wasteful McKenzie struggled in Bledisloe I.

Barrett, 33, didn’t set the back line alight, and there is no shortage of punters and pundits who believe he is still best suited as a bench player.

However, among a group of players who headed to London early to prepare for the England test, Barrett is a good chance to get the nod in the No 10 jersey and relegate McKenzie to an impact role.

Former England and Lions pivot Stuart Barnes will certainly hope so, having labelled Barrett as over the hill.

The loose forwards mix
At what stage do the All Blacks decide enough is enough, it’s time to park Japan-bound Sam Cane?

It’s a call that will have a big impact on the formation of the All Blacks’ loose forwards trio, which has been a constant talking point for what seems like an eternity.

Cane was somewhat of a surprise inclusion in the northern squad, although Robertson indicated a big part of him making the cut after a “deep conversation” was his ability to help bring the next crop through.

There was also a hint he might only feature in a couple of tests on the northern tour. However, with injuries to Luke Jacobson (season ender), and Ethan Blackadder and Dalton Papali’i, who could join the squad ahead of the penultimate test against France, that could well change.

Selectors will have debated whether to stick with the trio that started the final three Rugby Championship tests - No 8 Ardie Savea, No 7 Cane and No 6 Wallace Sititi - or to shift Savea to openside flanker, meaning rookie Sititi can play in his preferred position at the back of the scrum. In that case, Samipeni Finau would likely play No 6.

As Robertson and forwards coach Jason Ryan have made clear, the impressive Sititi is a No 8 who can play blindside flanker.

Halfback
Cam Roigard is back. And he hasn’t missed a beat since returning for Counties Manukau in the NPC, before starting against Japan last week.

Also blessed with Cortez Ratima, it means Robertson has two young and impressive halfbacks at his disposal, as well as veteran TJ Perenara.

So, how best to utilise them all?

Ratima, who was rested against Japan, likely gets the first start at Twickenham, meaning it will come down to Perenara’s ability to close out a game vs Roigard’s ability to light a fuse under a match with his electric ball-running ability for the bench spot.

Don’t be surprised if Roigard, tipped by many as the future No 1 halfback post Aaron Smith’s retirement, starts before the year is out.

- Stuff

[JM2K6]

The issue for me with a back-rower at 12 is that he'll always truck the ball up into contact, whereas a regular 12 (not named De Allende) will sometimes notice the space out wide and give the pass to the 13 beside him.

If it's an English 12 like Slade, the alternative to taking contact is invariably to kick the ball away. Passing to the 13 is generally the last option.

Slade plays 13. Playmaker 12s were considered to be a mortal insult to Saint Owen, First Of His Name.

[Jim Lahey]

Ask any gringo sports fan about rugby and they'll know next to fuck all about the sport outside of Matt Damon captaining the Boks to the World Cup, and the Haka.

I get that it has cultural significance to Kiwis, but World Rugby and broadcasters love whoring it out for commercial gain / brand awareness. That might not be a bad thing tbf as rugby needs both.

[Jethro]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

See, that's the problem right there. Too many northerners just think it's a silly dance.

It isn't and you really should educate yourselves if you want to comment with any sense.

Yeap, lets get rid of all the traditions that don't comply with the white agenda of the Northerners.

Like MAGA supporters, it's always the uneducated that have the biggest mouths and scream the most

[sockwithaticket]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

See, that's the problem right there. Too many northerners just think it's a silly dance.

It isn't and you really should educate yourselves if you want to comment with any sense.

You inserted the word silly, not me.

It is a dance and you haven't explained why it should take precedence over the home team's anthem.

[Enzedder]

I think we have explained it innumerable times over the last 25 years. It doesn't seem to penetrate thick northern skulls.

I'm out - would rather talk about the rugby to be honest.

[sockwithaticket]

It hasn't been 25 years since the incident in question.

This isn't about whether or not the haka should be done at all it's about it's placement in the running order and why if a host wants their anthem to be immediately before kick off rather than the haka it's such a gross insult that the ABs felt the need to do it in the changing room. We've all got google and can find out all sorts of things about the haka (like it being a generic term for dance, btw), but nothing really indicates why it should have to happen after the anthems.

[SaintK]

It hasn't been 25 years since the incident in question.

This isn't about whether or not the haka should be done at all it's about it's placement in the running order and why if a host wants their anthem to be immediately before kick off rather than the haka it's such a gross insult that the ABs felt the need to do it in the changing room. We've all got google and can find out all sorts of things about the haka (like it being a generic term for dance, btw), but nothing really indicates why it should have to happen after the anthems.

Quite

[JM2K6]

Yeah throwing your toys out of the pram and suggesting a racial angle because someone asks why the haka should have primacy over everything else in the pre match running order is doing nothing to change the view that a section of kiwi fans need to climb down off their high horses

[Tichtheid]

I liked the one where the Tongan team did the Sipi Tau at the same time as New Zealand did the Haka - that was real theatre.

I like the Haka, it's part of the folklore of our sport, like the Welsh anthem in Cardiff, but I agree with the comment that it has become a marketing tool for World Rugby, which probably wasn't/isn't the intention.

[Guy Smiley]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

because when they clip a game up it's consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular clip from a given game on social media. which might say much for rugby that what the casual fan wants to watch isn't even part of the actual playing of the game

viewer participation and engagement are among the most loved things by the IRB, especially with young people on social media, so the haka gets as much protection as it wants

That explains why the haka is important to broadcasters and perhaps World Rugby, but it doesn't really explain why the Kiwis threw their toys out of the pram about being asked to do it before the home team's anthem and why everyone just has to accept them doing it as the most immediate act before kick off. A clip of the haka is a clip of the haka, whether it was performed before the host anthem makes no difference to the broadcaster's ability to clip and share it on social media.

That changing room debacle was a direct result of the home union reneging on the agreement they'd made before the match about timing.

Please don't taint yourself with the arsehair brush of revisionism to support your innate prejudice.

Marler just wanted some attention again, and he got it. Haka 'debate' is a regular sideshow when visiting the home of the colonists. I'm surprised someone over there hasn't tried to steal it and donate it to a museum. Be a nice cultural exchange.

[Jim Lahey]

because when they clip a game up it's consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular clip from a given game on social media. which might say much for rugby that what the casual fan wants to watch isn't even part of the actual playing of the game

viewer participation and engagement are among the most loved things by the IRB, especially with young people on social media, so the haka gets as much protection as it wants

That explains why the haka is important to broadcasters and perhaps World Rugby, but it doesn't really explain why the Kiwis threw their toys out of the pram about being asked to do it before the home team's anthem and why everyone just has to accept them doing it as the most immediate act before kick off. A clip of the haka is a clip of the haka, whether it was performed before the host anthem makes no difference to the broadcaster's ability to clip and share it on social media.

That changing room debacle was a direct result of the home union reneging on the agreement they'd made before the match about timing.

Please don't taint yourself with the arsehair brush of revisionism to support your innate prejudice.

Marler just wanted some attention again, and he got it. Haka 'debate' is a regular sideshow when visiting the home of the colonists. I'm surprised someone over there hasn't tried to steal it and donate it to a museum. Be a nice cultural exchange.

[Slick]

It's happened twice already

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

I agree mainly in attack but disagree a lot on defence. I think any 10,12,13 would absolutely love a back rower standing in the 12 channel, just no way they are going to read it, or be conditioned, to do a decent job

[epwc]

I'm surprised someone over there hasn't tried to steal it and donate it to a museum. Be a nice cultural exchange.

I could speak to Jenrick?

[SaintK]

That explains why the haka is important to broadcasters and perhaps World Rugby, but it doesn't really explain why the Kiwis threw their toys out of the pram about being asked to do it before the home team's anthem and why everyone just has to accept them doing it as the most immediate act before kick off. A clip of the haka is a clip of the haka, whether it was performed before the host anthem makes no difference to the broadcaster's ability to clip and share it on social media.

That changing room debacle was a direct result of the home union reneging on the agreement they'd made before the match about timing.

Please don't taint yourself with the arsehair brush of revisionism to support your innate prejudice.

Marler just wanted some attention again, and he got it. Haka 'debate' is a regular sideshow when visiting the home of the colonists. I'm surprised someone over there hasn't tried to steal it and donate it to a museum. Be a nice cultural exchange.

Quite!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

They did and it was very puerile. I don't see why NZ should have an inalienable right for their dance to be the final thing before kick off, especially when playing in someone else's home.

because when they clip a game up it's consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular clip from a given game on social media. which might say much for rugby that what the casual fan wants to watch isn't even part of the actual playing of the game

viewer participation and engagement are among the most loved things by the IRB, especially with young people on social media, so the haka gets as much protection as it wants

That explains why the haka is important to broadcasters and perhaps World Rugby, but it doesn't really explain why the Kiwis threw their toys out of the pram about being asked to do it before the home team's anthem and why everyone just has to accept them doing it as the most immediate act before kick off. A clip of the haka is a clip of the haka, whether it was performed before the host anthem makes no difference to the broadcaster's ability to clip and share it on social media.

I suspect they're worried about any impression it's not a thing, or even the thing, to be revered. And this in a climate which sees young people not watching TV, not as we know it anyway, and that could be an interesting thing for sport looking 20-30 years hence when everyone who does watch TV is dead

[Rhubarb & Custard]

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

I agree mainly in attack but disagree a lot on defence. I think any 10,12,13 would absolutely love a back rower standing in the 12 channel, just no way they are going to read it, or be conditioned, to do a decent job

I think attack or defence, the speed at which the picture changes in union is startling

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The issue for me with a back-rower at 12 is that he'll always truck the ball up into contact, whereas a regular 12 (not named De Allende) will sometimes notice the space out wide and give the pass to the 13 beside him.

If it's an English 12 like Slade, the alternative to taking contact is invariably to kick the ball away. Passing to the 13 is generally the last option.

Interestingly it's not like the NZ 12 is a famed passer of the ball he's basically a slimmer version of Banahan, albeit with worse hands, and even if NZ get the ball to 13 that certainly kills the ball thus far in Rieko's career

[JM2K6]

In a proper game? How did he go?

Serious question, as it always amazes me that coaches think a quick forward can slot into a position like centre.

When coaches primarily look at their 12 as a battering ram, in theory, a back row carrier isn't vastly different in function. If they can stand in a line and catch a pass, which a 7 or 8 should be able to, and keep up with the rest of the backs in formation I can see why a coach would think it viable.

On the defensive side, plenty of back rowers end up defending in the midfield over the course of games and the 12 channel typically faces up to the more direct runners whose threat is negated if they're physically matched.

So, yeah, on paper it's not complete lunacy and if you want to do dumb shit like 6 - 2 splits I'd imagine it's easy to talk yourself into it actually being a bright idea.

I agree mainly in attack but disagree a lot on defence. I think any 10,12,13 would absolutely love a back rower standing in the 12 channel, just no way they are going to read it, or be conditioned, to do a decent job

It's extremely rare that we get 10, 12, 13 all nicely lined up against each other. Scrums, yes. Some lineouts. But that's it. You're risking maybe two of these moments at the tail end of a game and having a very fast back rower at 12 is not going to be significantly worse than having eg Slade shifted in one or whatever

[Kiwias]

The issue for me with a back-rower at 12 is that he'll always truck the ball up into contact, whereas a regular 12 (not named De Allende) will sometimes notice the space out wide and give the pass to the 13 beside him.

If it's an English 12 like Slade, the alternative to taking contact is invariably to kick the ball away. Passing to the 13 is generally the last option.

Interestingly it's not like the NZ 12 is a famed passer of the ball he's basically a slimmer version of Banahan, albeit with worse hands, and even if NZ get the ball to 13 that certainly kills the ball thus far in Rieko's career

Even more strength to the argument for ALB at 12 and Proctor at 13, with Ioane on the wing.

[Gumboot]

I'm not sold on Proctor tbh. Some of his defence against Japan left a lot to be desired.

[Kiwias]

I'm not sold on Proctor tbh. Some of his defence against Japan left a lot to be desired.

Ioane's defence has never fully convinced me to be honest and I want to see a natural centre playing at centre looking forward.

[Guy Smiley]

Jack Goodhue left at the end of 2023 for a two year contract. He'll be 30 in 2025.

Leicester Fainga'anuku is returning to NZ and the Saders in late 2025.


Juat sayin'

[Enzedder]

It hasn't been 25 years since the incident in question.

This isn't about whether or not the haka should be done at all it's about it's placement in the running order and why if a host wants their anthem to be immediately before kick off rather than the haka it's such a gross insult that the ABs felt the need to do it in the changing room. We've all got google and can find out all sorts of things about the haka (like it being a generic term for dance, btw), but nothing really indicates why it should have to happen after the anthems.

That's fine - tell the ABs not to do it then. We really don't care.

You may not think it but it is a very sincere show of respect for their opponents (as well as a claim that we'll kick your ass). Which one of those are you scared of?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

If it's an English 12 like Slade, the alternative to taking contact is invariably to kick the ball away. Passing to the 13 is generally the last option.

Interestingly it's not like the NZ 12 is a famed passer of the ball he's basically a slimmer version of Banahan, albeit with worse hands, and even if NZ get the ball to 13 that certainly kills the ball thus far in Rieko's career

Even more strength to the argument for ALB at 12 and Proctor at 13, with Ioane on the wing.

I don't mind Ioane at 13, and there is shift him wider or even take him out and the play would be prettier but more sideways. But with neither of the centres especially moving the ball and the wingers not moving the ball coming off their wing to link play and suddenly it's not what one grew up watching from NZ, indeed if the 15 isn't Barrett it might only be the 10 who moves the ball much. I guess it is what it is in an age of blitzing with monsters in the centres

I don't dislike ALB, and actually I'm a big fan of Goodhue, but there's always the worry when it come to test match physicality. Proctor, I suspect I've seen him play but I've no impressions either way as to whether he's a viable solution

[JM2K6]

Interestingly it's not like the NZ 12 is a famed passer of the ball he's basically a slimmer version of Banahan, albeit with worse hands, and even if NZ get the ball to 13 that certainly kills the ball thus far in Rieko's career

Even more strength to the argument for ALB at 12 and Proctor at 13, with Ioane on the wing.

I don't mind Ioane at 13, and there is shift him wider or even take him out and the play would be prettier but more sideways. But with neither of the centres especially moving the ball and the wingers not moving the ball coming off their wing to link play and suddenly it's not what one grew up watching from NZ, indeed if the 15 isn't Barrett it might only be the 10 who moves the ball much. I guess it is what it is in an age of blitzing with monsters in the centres

I don't dislike ALB, and actually I'm a big fan of Goodhue, but there's always the worry when it come to test match physicality. Proctor, I suspect I've seen him play but I've no impressions either way as to whether he's a viable solution

They really do rely on having Jordie at 12 to fix the balance of their back line. You're not wrong, NZ lacks a lot of guile and creativity these days, instead favouring brute force and raw athletic attributes. It will be more than enough to beat us but it's a far cry from the days when Bin Smuth and Conrad were there, with Nonu combining elite athleticism & power with also being a serious ball player (and SBW just doing mad offloading in contact)

Jordan is the only back 3 player I've seen recently for the ABs who really links well with other players, and he's dropped off a fair bit. He's a clever player but needs clever players alongside him to be at his best IMO.

[Slick]

I liked the one where the Tongan team did the Sipi Tau at the same time as New Zealand did the Haka - that was real theatre.

I like the Haka, it's part of the folklore of our sport, like the Welsh anthem in Cardiff, but I agree with the comment that it has become a marketing tool for World Rugby, which probably wasn't/isn't the intention.

I agree, I love it and it's a big part of rugby. It has got a little bit up it's own arse in recent years, but how much of that is NZ and how much is WR is up for debate.

At the end of the day I think rugby would be poorer without it.

[Sandstorm]

I liked the one where the Tongan team did the Sipi Tau at the same time as New Zealand did the Haka - that was real theatre.

I like the Haka, it's part of the folklore of our sport, like the Welsh anthem in Cardiff, but I agree with the comment that it has become a marketing tool for World Rugby, which probably wasn't/isn't the intention.

I agree, I love it and it's a big part of rugby. It has got a little bit up it's own arse in recent years, but how much of that is NZ and how much is WR is up for debate.

At the end of the day I think rugby would be poorer without it.

Exactly. If you don't like it, go for a leak before the kickoff....

[Guy Smiley]

They really do rely on having Jordie at 12 to fix the balance of their back line. You're not wrong, NZ lacks a lot of guile and creativity these days, instead favouring brute force and raw athletic attributes. It will be more than enough to beat us but it's a far cry from the days when Bin Smuth and Conrad were there, with Nonu combining elite athleticism & power with also being a serious ball player (and SBW just doing mad offloading in contact)

Jordan is the only back 3 player I've seen recently for the ABs who really links well with other players, and he's dropped off a fair bit. He's a clever player but needs clever players alongside him to be at his best IMO.

We're missing Richie Mo'unga, clearly... and the frustrating thing is that he faced an uphill battle to get into the team, let alone have the freedom to run the game at first. Our recent malaise took years to develop.

Sigh.

[epwc]

Our recent malaise took years to develop.

Sigh.

Don't worry ours took decades