Give 'em the needle?

[Sandstorm]

So the UK is talking about changing the law to allow assisted dying if you have "less than 6 months to live...."

I think it's a good thing, but can also see the dangers to vulnerable people if it isn't well-managed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47158287

[inactionman]

This is truly one area that I'm glad I don't have to make the decisions.

It's just an awful predicament.

[Sandstorm]

I know someone who jumped through many hoops a few years ago to end his life in Switzerland. His family were happy to accommodate his wishes & very relieved at the end.
It wasn't cheap either apparently.

[Tichtheid]

This is truly one area that I' glad I don't have to make the decisions.

It's just an awful predicament.

Yup.

It's one of these things that I prefer to just not think about.

How can we be sure that no one will ever be coerced or manipulated in some way?

On the other hand, why should someone not be spared six months of being in constant, insufferable pain?

[petej]

This is truly one area that I' glad I don't have to make the decisions.

It's just an awful predicament.

Yup.

It's one of these things that I prefer to just not think about.

How can we be sure that no one will ever be coerced or manipulated in some way?

On the other hand, why should someone not be spared six months of being in constant, insufferable pain?

Having had a parent die from MND I would seriously consider it in a similar situation. The NHS do some ridiculous things to keep people alive who don't want to be so anymore and have no hope of any quality of life, sometimes ignoring people's wishes.

[weegie01]

In the small country town where I grew up (born 1956) there were a couple of GPs who were well known for helping people on their way. My wife grew up in a similar country town where she also says there was one GP well known to do similar.

I doubt they'd get away with it now, but back then in rare cases where someone was having a terrible, painful and inevitable death, in those rural communities the attitude could be summed up as 'we'd never let an animal suffer like that, so why a human'.

We have had friends die in terrible pain despite the best palliative care, and their famillies are in no doubt they'd have preferred their ends to be eased. We have told our children that we'd rather have quick deaths than suffer.

Whilst it is clear what side of the fence I am on, there is no doubt there are dangers which I do not dismiss. However, bringing it in for really tightly defined cases, and by that I mean more restrictive than propsed for this legislation, to test the waters and see how it works, and if it can work would seem like a reasonale way forward. Though I also see the counter arguement that once the genie is out of the bottle it is very hard to put back.

[Sandstorm]

In the small country town where I grew up (born 1956) there were a couple of GPs who were well known for helping people on their way. My wife grew up in a similar country town where she also says there was one GP well known to do similar.

A bit more morphine to ease your pain.....

[weegie01]

In the small country town where I grew up (born 1956) there were a couple of GPs who were well known for helping people on their way. My wife grew up in a similar country town where she also says there was one GP well known to do similar.

A bit more morphine to ease your pain.....

Exactly.

[Uncle fester]

There was a guardian article on assisted dying in the Netherlands and it was a bit of an eye opener.

There was an extremely distressed elderly lady with dementia who had indicated her wish to avail of this and signed the documentation when of sound mind but was very much against the idea when it came to it.

There have been documented cases of elderly people pressured into it by relatives.

[Sandstorm]

There was an extremely distressed elderly lady with dementia who had indicated her wish to avail of this and signed the documentation when of sound mind but was very much against the idea when it came to it.

This one doesn't qualify for me. I know people with dementia get really unwell (mostly because they don't eat properly any more), but they're probably not in extreme pain. She shouldn't have been allowed to make the declaration earlier unless she had additional diseases.

[Uncle fester]

Think this is the article.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/j ... sted-dying

Swiss way of doing it is probably better. You need to consume the drugs yourself and I know a person whose mother was too far gone with MND to physically hold the drink container so she wasn't eligible.

[Uncle fester]

There was an extremely distressed elderly lady with dementia who had indicated her wish to avail of this and signed the documentation when of sound mind but was very much against the idea when it came to it.

This one doesn't qualify for me. I know people with dementia get really unwell (mostly because they don't eat properly any more), but they're probably not in extreme pain. She shouldn't have been allowed to make the declaration earlier unless she had additional diseases.

Agreed
Christ the notion of her family holding her down so they could inject the drugs. That's murder really.

[Sandstorm]

There was an extremely distressed elderly lady with dementia who had indicated her wish to avail of this and signed the documentation when of sound mind but was very much against the idea when it came to it.

This one doesn't qualify for me. I know people with dementia get really unwell (mostly because they don't eat properly any more), but they're probably not in extreme pain. She shouldn't have been allowed to make the declaration earlier unless she had additional diseases.

Agreed
Christ the notion of her family holding her down so they could inject the drugs. That's murder really.

Shudder.....

[sockwithaticket]

There are rarely perfect solutions to anything, but I think allowing people to die in ever spiralling pain and misery with no quality of life is barbaric and there's no good reason to keep allowing it.

[TB63]

Having seen my mother pass away recently, the pain and suffering she was going through whenever she was conscious, knowing that her organs were breaking down with zero chance of recovering. I remember sitting by her bed thinking if I crushed all her medication into a drink and explained to her the consequences of f she drank it, she'd have drunk it without hesitation.
Beginning to go through the same with my father now..

[weegie01]

Having seen my mother pass away recently, the pain and suffering she was going through whenever she was conscious, knowing that her organs were breaking down with zero chance of recovering. I remember sitting by her bed thinking if I crushed all her medication into a drink and explained to her the consequences of f she drank it, she'd have drunk it without hesitation.
Beginning to go through the same with my father now..

Though it is of little help, you have my heartfelt sympathies.

[Sandstorm]

Having seen my mother pass away recently, the pain and suffering she was going through whenever she was conscious, knowing that her organs were breaking down with zero chance of recovering. I remember sitting by her bed thinking if I crushed all her medication into a drink and explained to her the consequences of f she drank it, she'd have drunk it without hesitation.
Beginning to go through the same with my father now..

Though it is of little help, you have my heartfelt sympathies.

Same from me, TB.

[TB63]

Thanks all, my parents were together for 75 years, losing his life partner at 96, dads' just given up..

[Tichtheid]

Same from me TB.

I had a relative who had a terrible end, the dementia kept her in absolute terror - screaming, “Help, help” for hours on end in the care home as she had no idea where she was or who these people in front of her were.

No doubt she’d have been better off not being here anymore, but no way could she have consented to taking the pills to end the suffering

[Sandstorm]

Thanks all, my parents were together for 75 years, losing his life partner at 96, dads' just given up..

A broken heart is a real thing....

[fishfoodie]

In the small country town where I grew up (born 1956) there were a couple of GPs who were well known for helping people on their way. My wife grew up in a similar country town where she also says there was one GP well known to do similar.

A bit more morphine to ease your pain.....

The palliative care nurses & visitors are brilliant, & I've heard a few anecdotes, of when people get to the stage where they need a morphine pump just to manage their own pain, & the nurse making it pretty clear to the patient that they were in control; they just needed to keep clicking the dispenser.

[bok_viking]

As someone who has seen first hand the suffering a person can go through with a terminal illness, living day in and day out with unsufferable pain I think it should really be an option in such cases. For a person to have to go through so much suffering just to be kept alive for another 6 months to a year is almost inhumane in itself. That friend would have picked this option without a doubt as he often said he wish he could ask a doctor to let him die so he can stop his suffering as well as his family's. In my opinion it is not living if you have suffer that much for 6 months just so you can "live" longer, even if you do not want to live.

[epwc]

As someone who has seen first hand the suffering a person can go through with a terminal illness, living day in and day out with unsufferable pain I think it should really be an option in such cases. For a person to have to go through so much suffering just to be kept alive for another 6 months to a year is almost inhumane in itself. That friend would have picked this option without a doubt as he often said he wish he could ask a doctor to let him die so he can stop his suffering as well as his family's. In my opinion it is not living if you have suffer that much for 6 months just so you can "live" longer, even if you do not want to live.

100%

[Enzedder]

I thank the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster and his disciples that we are civilised enough in this country to be able to make this decision. Strangely, there is no evidence at all that this has been misused, especially by kids trying to off the parents early to get their hands on the estate.

We have the blueprint so you don't even have to write your own laws, just copy them.

The one good thing that David Seymour has given us.

[Paddington Bear]

My great aunt died yesterday having had a five year long battle with dementia and other things, it absolutely would have been kinder and better had she fallen down the stairs at some point.

With that said, what you hear and see from Canada, Holland and elsewhere demonstrates that on this issue the slippery slope argument is very very real. This will be worse in a country with attitudes like ours to the health service, where ‘not being a burden’ on it can fall into being a moral duty. We also need to bear in mind the housing wealth the generation likely to face assisted dying possess. We will see some unspeakably evil things done if this is passed, no country has managed to put in place effective safeguards and we are uniquely vulnerable

[Biffer]

My main worries with this are

1. A society has more elderly single people, with only a niece or cousin responsible for them, the likelihood of convenient euthanasia will become more common.

2. As tech bro mentality creeps further into government, with a creeping hyperutility approach, safeguards will be cut back and cut back. Musk doesn’t want old people he has to pay for

I have a friend who is a senior palliative care doctor, and she gets quite angry about the way the public debate in this area is framed.

[Paddington Bear]

This is truly one area that I' glad I don't have to make the decisions.

It's just an awful predicament.

Yup.

It's one of these things that I prefer to just not think about.

How can we be sure that no one will ever be coerced or manipulated in some way?

On the other hand, why should someone not be spared six months of being in constant, insufferable pain?

Having had a parent die from MND I would seriously consider it in a similar situation. The NHS do some ridiculous things to keep people alive who don't want to be so anymore and have no hope of any quality of life, sometimes ignoring people's wishes.

My grandmother’s DNR was ignored, causing her weeks of agony and a death in hospital rather than her home of 60 years. Pure arrogance from the NHS staff involved (which could cut the other way and lead to very much assisted dying as well). Letting nature run its course is very very different to what this bill proposes

[Sandstorm]

This has nothing to do with DNRs or saving lives. It’s a controlled, dignified end to someone’s suffering. Hopefully.

[Paddington Bear]

This has nothing to do with DNRs or saving lives. It’s a controlled, dignified end to someone’s suffering. Hopefully.

I understand that, I think it will be used to kill people who cannot properly consent to being killed, and will kill people whose families want them gone. And the evidence from Canada et al suggests I’m right

[Calculon]

In the small country town where I grew up (born 1956) there were a couple of GPs who were well known for helping people on their way. My wife grew up in a similar country town where she also says there was one GP well known to do similar.

A bit more morphine to ease your pain.....

The palliative care nurses & visitors are brilliant, & I've heard a few anecdotes, of when people get to the stage where they need a morphine pump just to manage their own pain, & the nurse making it pretty clear to the patient that they were in control; they just needed to keep clicking the dispenser.

Oh i had one of those after an operation, thought it was a pretty standard thing to give to patients who are in pain

[Kiwias]

Having seen my mother pass away recently, the pain and suffering she was going through whenever she was conscious, knowing that her organs were breaking down with zero chance of recovering. I remember sitting by her bed thinking if I crushed all her medication into a drink and explained to her the consequences of f she drank it, she'd have drunk it without hesitation.
Beginning to go through the same with my father now..

Full sympathy, mate. I am so glad my Dad went peacefully, almost on his own terms.

[Jim Lahey]

Tough subject. Think the Swiss probably have it right but jeez, an absolute minefield.

Maybe slightly crass here but its a relevant topic for me at present as I'm looking at a few policies, but what are the life insurance ramifications if you do assisted dying? Is it like suicide and your family don't get a payout?

[Enzedder]

In the small country town where I grew up (born 1956) there were a couple of GPs who were well known for helping people on their way. My wife grew up in a similar country town where she also says there was one GP well known to do similar.

A bit more morphine to ease your pain.....

The palliative care nurses & visitors are brilliant, & I've heard a few anecdotes, of when people get to the stage where they need a morphine pump just to manage their own pain, & the nurse making it pretty clear to the patient that they were in control; they just needed to keep clicking the dispenser.

Yep. That is how my dad ended it in the 1990s. He had to ask them a few times to set it up and didn't last long after that.

I cried as I thanked the staff for doing that.

[Sandstorm]

Tough subject. Think the Swiss probably have it right but jeez, an absolute minefield.

Maybe slightly crass here but its a relevant topic for me at present as I'm looking at a few policies, but what are the life insurance ramifications if you do assisted dying? Is it like suicide and your family don't get a payout?

Shouldn’t be an issue. This law is only for terminal patients with less than 6 months to live.

[Slick]

This is truly one area that I' glad I don't have to make the decisions.

It's just an awful predicament.

Yup.

It's one of these things that I prefer to just not think about.

How can we be sure that no one will ever be coerced or manipulated in some way?

On the other hand, why should someone not be spared six months of being in constant, insufferable pain?

I’m with Tichtheid here, it’s something I just don’t want to think about. Some of the stories on here are really upsetting

[Paddington Bear]

https://x.com/yuanyi_z/status/1856098117239628083

An interesting thread on the contents of this draft Bill.

For full disclosure, Yuan is a committed campaigner against assisted dying in all forms, however he is also a legal scholar and for the most part in this thread is simply analysing the text offered.

It is a troubling read - this proposal is very open to abuse and Leadbetter’s claim that all claims will have to go through a High Court judge is simply untrue

[Yeeb]

I know someone who jumped through many hoops a few years ago to end his life in Switzerland. His family were happy to accommodate his wishes & very relieved at the end.
It wasn't cheap either apparently.

Was this an Aunt / patio combo ?

[Sandstorm]

I know someone who jumped through many hoops a few years ago to end his life in Switzerland. His family were happy to accommodate his wishes & very relieved at the end.
It wasn't cheap either apparently.

Was this an Aunt / patio combo ?

No

[SaintK]

https://x.com/yuanyi_z/status/1856098117239628083

An interesting thread on the contents of this draft Bill.

For full disclosure, Yuan is a committed campaigner against assisted dying in all forms, however he is also a legal scholar and for the most part in this thread is simply analysing the text offered.

It is a troubling read - this proposal is very open to abuse and Leadbetter’s claim that all claims will have to go through a High Court judge is simply untrue

Lobby correspondents saying it's looking increasingly likely that the bill won't get through Parliament. Both the Health Secreatary and Justice Secretary are anti and Starmer has not been paticularly enthusiastic
From Kitty Donaldson

Analysis by i a month ago, when the idea was being debated only in principle, found 54 per cent of MPs currently expressing a degree of support for the legislation, while 35 per cent were opposed and 11 per cent were undecided.
But since the bill was published this week more MPs are expressing their doubts about the legislation, with many citing the concern that although private members’ bills are subject to the same stages as any other legislation, less time is allocated to them in parliament, meaning they are often discussed in significantly less detail before a vote

[sockwithaticket]

I hated the way Wes Streeting talked it down and said we should improve palliative care instead as if that is in any way an adequate substitute for those who wish to die rather than suffer.