England vs Springboks

[ASMO]

It says something when only 3 England players from the entire matchday squad came out of that game with any sort of credit. Smith (who i thnk is totally wasted in this team), Banjo Boy and Underhill, there is a case i guess to be made for Freeman, but not a strong one.

[petej]

Scotland have an extremely good midfield and a 10 who can create and exploit space like no one else when he feels like turning up. Which he almost always does against us. It will not be close.

The response to the recent losses was to bring in an extremely one dimensional fullback, parachute in a 9 who is some distance off convincing as an international, and to point blank refuse to examine the real problems. It's no surprise England kicked more - he picked a fullback just for the aerial game, a scrum half taught to kick everything - because it is the only thing he is comfortable with.

Never forget that he had to be convinced to move away from the dire rugby we were playing until after the last Scotland game, and the smart money has to be on his response to an embarrassing set of defeats being to go back to the only thing he knows.

He manages this side like he captained it. Blinkered, conservative, pedantic, doggedly loyal to the people he knows and trusts regardless of reality, and ultimately the face of a lost era in England rugby.

Soon to be the face of another lost era

[epwc]

Boks were there for the taking if we’d had any intelligence out there

[sturginho]

Wtf was that

I don't think England have a plethora of world class players waiting to be unlocked, but this team looks like a rabble. The rugby has such imprecision and incohesion and lack of being able to do things at key moments, and basically is just reliant on individuals doing something off their own back at random moments in the match.

What will it take for Scabnose and Deputy Boxkick to fuck off.

Losing to Scotland again to make it five times in a row?

Losing to Italy for the 1st time in the 6N might do it

We'll do our best?

[JM2K6]

Also can anyone explain why Borthwick looked unimpressed and Wigglesworth angrily smashed the table when Smith created that opening try?

[ASMO]

Also can anyone explain why Borthwick looked unimpressed and Wigglesworth angrily smashed the table when Smith created that opening try?

Becsuse he didnt "keek eet" as per the "England way"

[sockwithaticket]

Neither have the first fecking clue about anything outside they're very, very narrow areas of specialism. Lineouts and box kicks respectively.

[epwc]

Box fucking kicks, that sorted it

[sockwithaticket]

Scotland have an extremely good midfield and a 10 who can create and exploit space like no one else when he feels like turning up. Which he almost always does against us. It will not be close.

The response to the recent losses was to bring in an extremely one dimensional fullback, parachute in a 9 who is some distance off convincing as an international, and to point blank refuse to examine the real problems. It's no surprise England kicked more - he picked a fullback just for the aerial game, a scrum half taught to kick everything - because it is the only thing he is comfortable with.

Never forget that he had to be convinced to move away from the dire rugby we were playing until after the last Scotland game, and the smart money has to be on his response to an embarrassing set of defeats being to go back to the only thing he knows.

He manages this side like he captained it. Blinkered, conservative, pedantic, doggedly loyal to the people he knows and trusts regardless of reality, and ultimately the face of a lost era in England rugby.

The players having to tell the head man that we might actually need to train attack for a couple of sessions ought to have seen the blazers dusting off the P45 for Scabnose. That we suddenly looked much, much better for a few games afterwards (it's easy to look improved having been being so dire...) and have regressed to whatever the fuck it is we're currently trying to do should at the very least see them getting the pen out they'd use to sign marching orders.

[Margin__Walker]

We've seen some pretty dark says when it comes to English rugby talent in the last 20 years.

We're not living through one of those periods at the moment. There are some raw materials there. As an England manager you really shouldn't be losing 7 in 8 games against your peers and be as safe from the boot as Borthwick presumably is. I was pretty unimpressed when he was appointed off the back of one good gritty but uninspiring season at Leicester. Again during the charmed anti rugby run at the RWC. Very little about him screams elite coach.

Clearly losing to the world champions in isolation isn't the end of the world and he's not going anywhere, but he really needs to show us something else in the 6N.

[Sandstorm]

Boks win again and seem happy with 35% possession every Test. Seems like a very tiring way to play rugby every week.

[Uncle fester]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

[Sandstorm]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

[JM2K6]

Given that losing teams rarely provide players the opportunity to make the Lions, unless they're run by the guy in charge of said team, that's not really a marker of anything.

[Paddington Bear]

Frustrating day out. This is an England side with the ability to play at a higher level than they do. Another game where we couldn’t threaten in the last 20. Another game where we had chances to win and barely looked like exploiting them.

JVP was atrocious, we just cannot find a 9 who is consistently at the level. Steward has his talents but his pace lets him down so much, the first try particularly should never have been scored.

This is a good side on so many levels doing dumb shit on so many more. This could have been a great year and clearly it has not been.

Ah well. Great atmosphere and the Boks fans in person were significantly better value than their outriders online. I hope they enjoyed their trip home to Putney

[Paddington Bear]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

Not your circus, not your monkeys but I really couldn’t care less if we provide 0 or 15 of the Lions starters. The question is whether they can get it done for England and we’ve seen the answer too often of late. We shouldn’t pretend that there haven’t been some great moment s over the last year or so, and I disagree that this is a poor side, but they are producing far less than the sum of their parts. They fade badly, they have no bottle and they have the tactical sense of an under 12s team whereby their answer to how to score is to give it to their best attacking player and hope he can do something

[inactionman]

Frustrating day out. This is an England side with the ability to play at a higher level than they do. Another game where we couldn’t threaten in the last 20. Another game where we had chances to win and barely looked like exploiting them.

JVP was atrocious, we just cannot find a 9 who is consistently at the level. Steward has his talents but his pace lets him down so much, the first try particularly should never have been scored.

This is a good side on so many levels doing dumb shit on so many more. This could have been a great year and clearly it has not been.

Ah well. Great atmosphere and the Boks fans in person were significantly better value than their outriders online. I hope they enjoyed their trip home to Putney

Much as Spencer has been excellent for Bath I'm not sure he's the ideal fit. We need to get the witch doctors performing sacrifices for Alex Mitchell's neck.

[Paddington Bear]

Frustrating day out. This is an England side with the ability to play at a higher level than they do. Another game where we couldn’t threaten in the last 20. Another game where we had chances to win and barely looked like exploiting them.

JVP was atrocious, we just cannot find a 9 who is consistently at the level. Steward has his talents but his pace lets him down so much, the first try particularly should never have been scored.

This is a good side on so many levels doing dumb shit on so many more. This could have been a great year and clearly it has not been.

Ah well. Great atmosphere and the Boks fans in person were significantly better value than their outriders online. I hope they enjoyed their trip home to Putney

Much as Spencer has been excellent for Bath I'm not sure he's the ideal fit. We need to get the witch doctors performing sacrifices for Alex Mitchell's neck.

Spencer’s international career was wrecked by Eddie, but yes he has disappointed in an England shirt and I expected a lot better from him. He had a chance to take control of the jersey this autumn and very much failed to do so

[inactionman]

Frustrating day out. This is an England side with the ability to play at a higher level than they do. Another game where we couldn’t threaten in the last 20. Another game where we had chances to win and barely looked like exploiting them.

JVP was atrocious, we just cannot find a 9 who is consistently at the level. Steward has his talents but his pace lets him down so much, the first try particularly should never have been scored.

This is a good side on so many levels doing dumb shit on so many more. This could have been a great year and clearly it has not been.

Ah well. Great atmosphere and the Boks fans in person were significantly better value than their outriders online. I hope they enjoyed their trip home to Putney

Much as Spencer has been excellent for Bath I'm not sure he's the ideal fit. We need to get the witch doctors performing sacrifices for Alex Mitchell's neck.

Spencer’s international career was wrecked by Eddie, but yes he has disappointed in an England shirt and I expected a lot better from him. He had a chance to take control of the jersey this autumn and very much failed to do so

I'm never sure how much inference to draw from a handful of performances in a disjointed England team. Club form is not transferring for a number of players.

[Paddington Bear]

Much as Spencer has been excellent for Bath I'm not sure he's the ideal fit. We need to get the witch doctors performing sacrifices for Alex Mitchell's neck.

Spencer’s international career was wrecked by Eddie, but yes he has disappointed in an England shirt and I expected a lot better from him. He had a chance to take control of the jersey this autumn and very much failed to do so

I'm never sure how much inference to draw from a handful of performances in a disjointed England team. Club form is not transferring for a number of players.

It’s a tough one to judge whether they just can’t make the step up or it’s game plan/coaches/cohesiveness etc etc. He’s clearly a good player but hasn’t made the step up thus far and Mitchell will take the shirt back without too much hassle

[inactionman]

Spencer’s international career was wrecked by Eddie, but yes he has disappointed in an England shirt and I expected a lot better from him. He had a chance to take control of the jersey this autumn and very much failed to do so

I'm never sure how much inference to draw from a handful of performances in a disjointed England team. Club form is not transferring for a number of players.

It’s a tough one to judge whether they just can’t make the step up or it’s game plan/coaches/cohesiveness etc etc. He’s clearly a good player but hasn’t made the step up thus far and Mitchell will take the shirt back without too much hassle

I think England (and indeed, Northampton) have missed Mitchell, all the other options (maybe expect Randall) are a lot more 'methodical' sorts of 9s. You'd think England would prefer the more structured, given the way we seem to be coached, but we just look too pedestrian.

[TartanBear]

Spencer’s international career was wrecked by Eddie, but yes he has disappointed in an England shirt and I expected a lot better from him. He had a chance to take control of the jersey this autumn and very much failed to do so

I'm never sure how much inference to draw from a handful of performances in a disjointed England team. Club form is not transferring for a number of players.

It’s a tough one to judge whether they just can’t make the step up or it’s game plan/coaches/cohesiveness etc etc. He’s clearly a good player but hasn’t made the step up thus far and Mitchell will take the shirt back without too much hassle

I hope you don’t mind a Scot intervening in your English misery, but from a purely objective perspective, England are a beat away from being one of the best, if not the best, sides in the world. Maybe that’s what is frustrating the supporters so much, but it is really just tiny margins of skill and precision that are missing, all of which can be developed with coaching and mindset. I get that you are going at Borthwick, but if he’s retained, I expect England will be in the mix in the 6N for the title. The team showed; against Ireland last season, what they can do, and that’s not a one-off fluke. Observing as a resolute Scottish fan, I’d be more way more confident of a 6N title or WC (hah) as an English fan. It feels like England is hindered by the plethora of talent available to it, rather than emboldened and empowered.

[Paddington Bear]

I'm never sure how much inference to draw from a handful of performances in a disjointed England team. Club form is not transferring for a number of players.

It’s a tough one to judge whether they just can’t make the step up or it’s game plan/coaches/cohesiveness etc etc. He’s clearly a good player but hasn’t made the step up thus far and Mitchell will take the shirt back without too much hassle

I hope you don’t mind a Scot intervening in your English misery, but from a purely objective perspective, England are a beat away from being one of the best, if not the best, sides in the world. Maybe that’s what is frustrating the supporters so much, but it is really just tiny margins of skill and precision that are missing, all of which can be developed with coaching and mindset. I get that you are going at Borthwick, but if he’s retained, I expect England will be in the mix in the 6N for the title. The team showed; against Ireland last season, what they can do, and that’s not a one-off fluke. Observing as a resolute Scottish fan, I’d be more way more confident of a 6N title or WC (hah) as an English fan. It feels like England is hindered by the plethora of talent available to it, rather than emboldened and empowered.

I agree with basically all of this

[Biffer]

That was a fantastic game of rugby

[Uncle fester]

It’s a tough one to judge whether they just can’t make the step up or it’s game plan/coaches/cohesiveness etc etc. He’s clearly a good player but hasn’t made the step up thus far and Mitchell will take the shirt back without too much hassle

I hope you don’t mind a Scot intervening in your English misery, but from a purely objective perspective, England are a beat away from being one of the best, if not the best, sides in the world. Maybe that’s what is frustrating the supporters so much, but it is really just tiny margins of skill and precision that are missing, all of which can be developed with coaching and mindset. I get that you are going at Borthwick, but if he’s retained, I expect England will be in the mix in the 6N for the title. The team showed; against Ireland last season, what they can do, and that’s not a one-off fluke. Observing as a resolute Scottish fan, I’d be more way more confident of a 6N title or WC (hah) as an English fan. It feels like England is hindered by the plethora of talent available to it, rather than emboldened and empowered.

I agree with basically all of this

Hindered by a poor selector more like. A better coach would home in on his core team and stick with them.

[Uncle fester]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

They will be hampered if this form continues but there's enough decent players in there to merit selection. Smith and Russell will be the 10's I reckon for example.

[JM2K6]

I think dropping Spencer entirely was both unfair and also appalling man management. Did he grab his chance? No. But he had a couple of shaky moments and that's about it. He did not deserve to get booted out and instead he should be given the chance to play his natural game.

I don't think he's a flawless player at club level but he has a fine kicking game, is the best defensive 9 in the league, and is capable of attacking brilliance. He's dovetailed quite nicely with Russell most of the time, and the pair of them schooled Fin Smith and Alex Mitchell in last season's final.

And he plays for England like he's on Prozac.

[OomStruisbaai]

The chopping and changing of the Springboks have big advantages . The only negative is that some of them look rusty and take a half to get stuck in. Kriel and Ellende look lost in that first half. Much better in the second.

That said the rest of the squad will play Wales.

[boere wors]

Only watched the replay late last Night. Wtf has happened to our lineout?? Once a weapon, now we lose half of them. If that is the new normal, there is no point in playing libbok and have him kick for touch as he cant kick for poles. His kicks for touch werent great either, but then it doesnt matter where you lose your lineout

[OomStruisbaai]

Only watched the replay late last Night. Wtf has happened to our lineout?? Once a weapon, now we lose half of them. If that is the new normal, there is no point in playing libbok and have him kick for touch as he cant kick for poles. His kicks for touch werent great either, but then it doesnt matter where you lose your lineout

To be fair to Libbok, you missed the kick pass for the try. The kick he missed wasn't easy. England also attack his channel with success.

Hope to see Hendricks in 10 against Wales

The lineouts lost is a mystery. They tried fancy kak iso simple nr 2 or 4.

[boere wors]

Only watched the replay late last Night. Wtf has happened to our lineout?? Once a weapon, now we lose half of them. If that is the new normal, there is no point in playing libbok and have him kick for touch as he cant kick for poles. His kicks for touch werent great either, but then it doesnt matter where you lose your lineout

To be fair to Libbok, you missed the kick pass for the try. The kick he missed wasn't easy. England also attack his channel with success.

Hope to see Hendricks in 10 against Wales

The lineouts lost is a mystery. They tried fancy kak iso simple nr 2 or 4.

No no, didnt want to bash Manie, he did okay. The lost lineouts were the major concern, kept england in the game. If we had been clinical with them, we would have controlled the game.

[Sards]

Bit nervous of the lock gamble. Bearing in mind PSDT can...but lineouts have been a weak point.

I'd be licking my lips were I England.

The lineouts have been messy for sure, but there is method in the madness. We just need to get the execution right and there are a lot of moving parts.

Going for 4-man lineouts makes it a bit easier for the opposition to contest. So there is a lot of subterfuge going on...moving backwards and forwards, switching jumpers last second, and then the throw needs to be pinpoint. So it's understandable that things can go wrong there. BUT if you get it right, you have a great attacking platform with 4 forwards in the backline to get the opposition defense to stay narrow, which can create some space outside for the wings, either on the first phase, or when you swing at back from sideline to sideline.

If that isn't working though, you can always revert back to full lineouts where we will have 3-4 jumpers (Eben, RG, PSdT and Elrich) and play conservatively to secure the ball. That's what we did last week against the Scots. First half 4-man lineouts, didn't work, reverted to 6 or 7-man lineouts when the subs came on and it sorted itself out.

I think the lineouts are an easy fix and the concerns are overblown.
4-man lineouts are very tricky to get right consistently. There's virtually no room for error.

Looks like I was right. And said it a lot simpler

[PCPhil]

Much as Spencer has been excellent for Bath I'm not sure he's the ideal fit. We need to get the witch doctors performing sacrifices for Alex Mitchell's neck.

Spencer’s international career was wrecked by Eddie, but yes he has disappointed in an England shirt and I expected a lot better from him. He had a chance to take control of the jersey this autumn and very much failed to do so

I'm never sure how much inference to draw from a handful of performances in a disjointed England team. Club form is not transferring for a number of players.

The question to ask is, what if club form is transferring for a number of players?
It's okay to look great in the English Premiership but that ain't the true yardstick.

[SaintK]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

Who gives a fuck how many make the Lions squad!!!
It will be mainly Irish and Scottish players according to the Irish and Scots anyway.
I just want to see improvement and the coaches getting the best out of the players selected. The coaches are patently not doing that.

[dpedin]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

They will be hampered if this form continues but there's enough decent players in there to merit selection. Smith and Russell will be the 10's I reckon for example.

England have a decent pack but some of their big front row guys are very slow in getting reset into defensive lines and teams are exploiting the spaces around the breakdown. Genge and George are particularly guilty of this. However they are struggling at 9 and outside Smith have very little in terms of creativity and nous. Slade is supposed to be the 2nd playmaker but is increasingly becoming a huge liability in defence and all Lawrence is asked to do is run into big guys. None of the wingers do much and dropping Furbank for Steward was a real backward step. Smith ends up trying to do everything in the backs and his game suffers as a result. They really need to find a ball playing 12 or 13 to give them more options and control in the backs, relying on Smith to spark something all the time is not going to work. They will continue to do ok in bullying packs up front and then creating spaces for runners but when confronted with an equally big and aggressive pack they don't have a plan B.

[JM2K6]

I think that's unfair on Sleightholme and Feyi-Waboso though I do think Freeman's international future is either at 13 or as the utility substitute

[Big D]

There's more in that English squad than they are getting out of it at the moment.

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

Who gives a fuck how many make the Lions squad!!!
It will be mainly Irish and Scottish players according to the Irish and Scots anyway.
I just want to see improvement and the coaches getting the best out of the players selected. The coaches are patently not doing that.

I don't think the Scots on here are expecting all that many. Certainly confident about some; Russell, Tuipulotu and one or two others making the squad but that aside I haven't seen any of our posters claiming we'll have more than England in the squad. I don't think we will to be fair.

[SaintK]

I think that's unfair on Sleightholme and Feyi-Waboso though I do think Freeman's international future is either at 13 or as the utility substitute

Freeman is not seeing anything like the amount of ball on the wing as he does for Saints. Though I do tend to agree he does look more like a 13.

[dpedin]

I think that's unfair on Sleightholme and Feyi-Waboso though I do think Freeman's international future is either at 13 or as the utility substitute

True - I forgot about Feyi-Waboso, an excellent player but he is much more a mazy one off runner who can make breaks with ball in hand rather than adding creativity to the back line. Sleightholme is ok with ball in hand.

[dpedin]

I disagree. This is a poor English side. How many will make the Lions tour next year? 6? 7?

Who gives a fuck how many make the Lions squad!!!
It will be mainly Irish and Scottish players according to the Irish and Scots anyway.
I just want to see improvement and the coaches getting the best out of the players selected. The coaches are patently not doing that.

I don't think the Scots on here are expecting all that many. Certainly confident about some; Russell, Tuipulotu and one or two others making the squad but that aside I haven't seen any of our posters claiming we'll have more than England in the squad. I don't think we will to be fair.

Outside of Smith I cant see many, if any, England backs deseverdly making the squad - none of the 9s have put their hand up, Slade and Lawrence have not shown anything like the form required to be included and apart from Feyi-Waboso not many of the back three have either! Englands representatives will come from the forwards.