Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If you're trying to back your argument up with numbers that are blatantly very wrong, it's your own fault when someone points out your argument is pish.

Feel free to show me any numbers I have given that are incorrect.

I have pointed out what it takes to make an actual living on a farm. Smaller farms are frequently rented out to a farmer who may well be farming several farms. For all I know the owners may well own it to avoid IHT. This legislation catches the full time, multi generational farmer with their own farm.

But as you said, there aren't many of them so you don't care.

You were using 500 / 1000 acres as if it was the norm, I pointed out that's not the case. If they're farming rented land, it doesn't attract IHT. In fact if they're renting it opens up the possibility of them being able to buy the land they're farming, which is a good thing, no? The legislation hits farmers who own their own farm if its a whack larger than the average. You haven't provided numbers with any backing, just made them uup and expected us to take it as true. They don't represent typical farms and your assertions about everything else are just that, assertions with no evidence etc.

It may not be the norm - which I didn't assert - it's an example of what a farm looks like if you are trying to make a full time living off it and these are the people who are hit hardest by the legislation because the land value and the income don't line up the way most assets do.

My assertions are based on half my family and some friends being farmers so I know what a good year is, a bad year, and what a decently profitable farm looks like - if you think they are wrong then I'm open to knowing which ones.

Farming can be a tough business and the people you probably most want to keep as farmers are the ones most affected by the changes. If my cousin sells the farm on inheritance due to being unable to pay IHT she'll have a chunk of money but the family won't be farmers anymore after 3 generations on the same land.

[Raggs]

Feel free to show me any numbers I have given that are incorrect.

I have pointed out what it takes to make an actual living on a farm. Smaller farms are frequently rented out to a farmer who may well be farming several farms. For all I know the owners may well own it to avoid IHT. This legislation catches the full time, multi generational farmer with their own farm.

But as you said, there aren't many of them so you don't care.

You were using 500 / 1000 acres as if it was the norm, I pointed out that's not the case. If they're farming rented land, it doesn't attract IHT. In fact if they're renting it opens up the possibility of them being able to buy the land they're farming, which is a good thing, no? The legislation hits farmers who own their own farm if its a whack larger than the average. You haven't provided numbers with any backing, just made them uup and expected us to take it as true. They don't represent typical farms and your assertions about everything else are just that, assertions with no evidence etc.

It may not be the norm - which I didn't assert - it's an example of what a farm looks like if you are trying to make a full time living off it and these are the people who are hit hardest by the legislation because the land value and the income don't line up the way most assets do.

My assertions are based on half my family and some friends being farmers so I know what a good year is, a bad year, and what a decently profitable farm looks like - if you think they are wrong then I'm open to knowing which ones.

Farming can be a tough business and the people you probably most want to keep as farmers are the ones most affected by the changes. If my cousin sells the farm on inheritance due to being unable to pay IHT she'll have a chunk of money but the family won't be farmers anymore after 3 generations on the same land.

How much is the farm worth? How big is the house?

[Insane_Homer]

So in summary, news reports this week ...

high street sales are down = budget fault, despite no impact on avg person take home (no tax rises)... So is it farmers not spending or vat on private schools?

But inflation is going up, while high street spending isnt
= also budget fault. Reasons unclear, but deffo budget!

Energy prices going up, ho hum nothing we can do about that, but deffo not causing inflation. Please someone think of the shareholders.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

You were using 500 / 1000 acres as if it was the norm, I pointed out that's not the case. If they're farming rented land, it doesn't attract IHT. In fact if they're renting it opens up the possibility of them being able to buy the land they're farming, which is a good thing, no? The legislation hits farmers who own their own farm if its a whack larger than the average. You haven't provided numbers with any backing, just made them uup and expected us to take it as true. They don't represent typical farms and your assertions about everything else are just that, assertions with no evidence etc.

It may not be the norm - which I didn't assert - it's an example of what a farm looks like if you are trying to make a full time living off it and these are the people who are hit hardest by the legislation because the land value and the income don't line up the way most assets do.

My assertions are based on half my family and some friends being farmers so I know what a good year is, a bad year, and what a decently profitable farm looks like - if you think they are wrong then I'm open to knowing which ones.

Farming can be a tough business and the people you probably most want to keep as farmers are the ones most affected by the changes. If my cousin sells the farm on inheritance due to being unable to pay IHT she'll have a chunk of money but the family won't be farmers anymore after 3 generations on the same land.

How much is the farm worth? How big is the house?

It's about 300 acres of average quality arable land, house is probably close to £1m. I'd say a little under £5m total.

[Biffer]

It may not be the norm - which I didn't assert - it's an example of what a farm looks like if you are trying to make a full time living off it and these are the people who are hit hardest by the legislation because the land value and the income don't line up the way most assets do.

My assertions are based on half my family and some friends being farmers so I know what a good year is, a bad year, and what a decently profitable farm looks like - if you think they are wrong then I'm open to knowing which ones.

Farming can be a tough business and the people you probably most want to keep as farmers are the ones most affected by the changes. If my cousin sells the farm on inheritance due to being unable to pay IHT she'll have a chunk of money but the family won't be farmers anymore after 3 generations on the same land.

How much is the farm worth? How big is the house?

It's about 300 acres of average quality arable land, house is probably close to £1m. I'd say a little under £5m total.

But your first example used a farm more than three times that size. Why?

Using that as an example of what's needed to make living suggests your friends can't make a living.

[Raggs]

It may not be the norm - which I didn't assert - it's an example of what a farm looks like if you are trying to make a full time living off it and these are the people who are hit hardest by the legislation because the land value and the income don't line up the way most assets do.

My assertions are based on half my family and some friends being farmers so I know what a good year is, a bad year, and what a decently profitable farm looks like - if you think they are wrong then I'm open to knowing which ones.

Farming can be a tough business and the people you probably most want to keep as farmers are the ones most affected by the changes. If my cousin sells the farm on inheritance due to being unable to pay IHT she'll have a chunk of money but the family won't be farmers anymore after 3 generations on the same land.

How much is the farm worth? How big is the house?

It's about 300 acres of average quality arable land, house is probably close to £1m. I'd say a little under £5m total.

Given average land prices (that seem to include buildings) I'd guess closer to 4. But shall we say 4.5?

As you said about 500k tax, I'm assuming your aunt was married? So 2.7m off the bill, 1.8m remaining, 360k to be paid.

A 1m house in anyone else's hands would be 120k tax on its own... Ignoring the 3.5m in land...

360k, 10 years interest free, how much does the house make on rent? And then a mortgage can still be taken out on the house to cover the remaining tax surely (house is rented anyway, surely be able to cover the cost of the mortgage).

[Dinsdale Piranha]

How much is the farm worth? How big is the house?

It's about 300 acres of average quality arable land, house is probably close to £1m. I'd say a little under £5m total.

But your first example used a farm more than three times that size. Why?

Using that as an example of what's needed to make living suggests your friends can't make a living.

The farm isn't capable of providing a living on its own, it's too small.

My cousin took early retirement to run it. 20 years ago when my uncle farmed it, it was in addition to the 1000 acre farm he rented.

[Biffer]

It's about 300 acres of average quality arable land, house is probably close to £1m. I'd say a little under £5m total.

But your first example used a farm more than three times that size. Why?

Using that as an example of what's needed to make living suggests your friends can't make a living.

The farm isn't capable of providing a living on its own, it's too small.

My cousin took early retirement to run it. 20 years ago when my uncle farmed it, it was in addition to the 1000 acre farm he rented.

So are you saying that 90% of UK farms can't provide a living?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

But your first example used a farm more than three times that size. Why?

Using that as an example of what's needed to make living suggests your friends can't make a living.

The farm isn't capable of providing a living on its own, it's too small.

My cousin took early retirement to run it. 20 years ago when my uncle farmed it, it was in addition to the 1000 acre farm he rented.

So are you saying that 90% of UK farms can't provide a living?

This is rather the point of this whole conversation. If you have 300 acres of arable land you will probably need another source of income. Maybe your partner works, maybe you rent another farm. It's probably not a fulltime job farming it.

If however you actually have a single farm big enough to make a decent living, you are falling right in to the IHT box that means the family probably can't keep when the older generation dies. This change has come on 18 months notice

I have a friend who's a Welsh hill farmer - He and his wife both have part/fulltime jobs and prior to brexit a decent chunk of their income was the single farm payment.

Now there are of course options for income off the land which doesn't involve growing crops. One relative made most of their money off pigs - which was very good money in the 90s and nearly bankrupted them in the 2000s.

Basically growing crops is a low margin, high risk business and you need a decent size farm - and an understanding bank - to make a go of it.

[robmatic]

But your first example used a farm more than three times that size. Why?

Using that as an example of what's needed to make living suggests your friends can't make a living.

The farm isn't capable of providing a living on its own, it's too small.

My cousin took early retirement to run it. 20 years ago when my uncle farmed it, it was in addition to the 1000 acre farm he rented.

So are you saying that 90% of UK farms can't provide a living?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... and-202324

Section 2 shows the distribution of earnings among farms. 55% earn less than £25k, or slightly over what would be the minimum wage for 1 person.

I would also note that this is the income per farm, not per person. A generational farm is likely to be a partnership or limited company with multiple directors, and spouses and family members also provide labour.

[Biffer]

The farm isn't capable of providing a living on its own, it's too small.

My cousin took early retirement to run it. 20 years ago when my uncle farmed it, it was in addition to the 1000 acre farm he rented.

So are you saying that 90% of UK farms can't provide a living?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... and-202324

Section 2 shows the distribution of earnings among farms. 55% earn less than £25k, or slightly over what would be the minimum wage for 1 person.

I would also note that this is the income per farm, not per person. A generational farm is likely to be a partnership or limited company with multiple directors, and spouses and family members also provide labour.

And those are not the farms that will be affected by IHT

[robmatic]

So are you saying that 90% of UK farms can't provide a living?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... and-202324

Section 2 shows the distribution of earnings among farms. 55% earn less than £25k, or slightly over what would be the minimum wage for 1 person.

I would also note that this is the income per farm, not per person. A generational farm is likely to be a partnership or limited company with multiple directors, and spouses and family members also provide labour.

And those are not the farms that will be affected by IHT

Exactly, the ones affected will be the ones that do provide more income than minimum wage for one person. That is what Dinsdale Piranha is saying.

[Hugo]

This tax seems to be coercive rather than a good faith effort to plug holes in budgets.

When I read about it it jogged my memory of how we imposed property and poll taxes on Kenyans in the first part of the 20th century, essentially to force them into the cash economy whereas previously they were cashless or "off the grid" so to speak.

I'm very wary of any tax that is really an attempt to modify behaviour.

The fact that Starmer openly tweets about partnering with BlackRock is very, very off putting. If farmers have to sell up I've a pretty good idea that vultures will be primed to exploit the situation.

[Hugo]

Also, farmers being rich is one of those things that does not tend to bother me. I mean, Premier league footballers and a host of other celebrities are filthy rich and they really provide nothing meaningful to society.

If people like farmers and doctors end up wealthy I can reconcile that with the fact that they are doing something that is essential and good for people.

My grandparents did not own a farm but they did have a sizeable amount of land and had an orchard and lots of greenhouses where they would grow tomatoes, runner beans and such. When my Gran cooked dinner one of her catchphrases was "these were growing in my garden this morning". It seems like there is something noble about producing food.

[Sandstorm]

Also, farmers being rich is one of those things that does not tend to bother me. I mean, Premier league footballers and a host of other celebrities are filthy rich and they really provide nothing meaningful to society.

If people like farmers and doctors end up wealthy I can reconcile that with the fact that they are doing something that is essential and good for people.

My grandparents did not own a farm but they did have a sizeable amount of land and had an orchard and lots of greenhouses where they would grow tomatoes, runner beans and such. When my Gran cooked dinner one of her catchphrases was "these were growing in my garden this morning". It seems like there is something noble about producing food.

Interesting idea Hugo. Get the UK farmers and doctors together to grow the right food and get the population healthy again.

[Calculon]

Also, farmers being rich is one of those things that does not tend to bother me. I mean, Premier league footballers and a host of other celebrities are filthy rich and they really provide nothing meaningful to society.

If people like farmers and doctors end up wealthy I can reconcile that with the fact that they are doing something that is essential and good for people.

My grandparents did not own a farm but they did have a sizeable amount of land and had an orchard and lots of greenhouses where they would grow tomatoes, runner beans and such. When my Gran cooked dinner one of her catchphrases was "these were growing in my garden this morning". It seems like there is something noble about producing food.

My granparents on my dad's side had a sheep and wheat farm. Oupa shot a leopard on the farm and gave me it's skin

[Dinsdale Piranha]

In case anybody wants to keep flogging this horse, here's a detailed analysis from Dan Neidle.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/11/24/how ... t-farmers/

[JM2K6]

I'd much rather give them shit for their inane announcement over spiking drinks being made an offence when it already was illegal, or talking about cutting benefits and getting people back to work as if that's the actual problem with this fucking country while deep throating every big company they can flutter their eyelashes at

Give people some hope you pricks, this dumb shit failed for over a decade and using the same failed Tory playbook when you have such a huge majority is incredibly pathetic. This is what people should be getting angry at, not a handful of landowners acting like paying their fair share of inheritance tax is suddenly going to bankrupt them

Unfortunately the two people who anyone even vaguely left of centre was concerned about - Streeting and Reeves - are turning out to be as bad as expected.

[epwc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxy1kp73y9o

How long would it have taken for a Tory mp to quit in the circumstances?

[Paddington Bear]

Starmer’s been waiting for an excuse to get rid of her

[SaintK]

Starmer’s been waiting for an excuse to get rid of her

Very much doubt it
One of the more effective ministers by all accounts
In reply to her resignation letter he also confirms the door is open to her return at some stage.

[Paddington Bear]

Starmer’s been waiting for an excuse to get rid of her

Very much doubt it
One of the more effective ministers by all accounts
In reply to her resignation letter he also confirms the door is open to her return at some stage.

That was the rumour mill - apparently the comments on DP World and the payrise followed by train strike really fucked him off. We’ve certainly had worse transport secs though

[Raggs]

Are politics becoming more principled again? Resigning from the cabinet for that seems a big step forward from parties during quarantine, affairs and Barnard castle type behaviours...

[shaggy]

Are politics becoming more principled again? Resigning from the cabinet for that seems a big step forward from parties during quarantine, affairs and Barnard castle type behaviours...

One paper was running a story that she wanted her phone upgraded, was not eligible, so she used the mugging as cover for getting approval for a new one.

Not sure why she didn’t just drop it down the stairs like most people do?

[SaintK]

Are politics becoming more principled again? Resigning from the cabinet for that seems a big step forward from parties during quarantine, affairs and Barnard castle type behaviours...

One paper was running a story that she wanted her phone upgraded, was not eligible, so she used the mugging as cover for getting approval for a new one.

Not sure why she didn’t just drop it down the stairs like most people do?

That'll be the Maily Torygraph then?
Sounds like she got shit advice from her solicitor as well!!

[shaggy]

Are politics becoming more principled again? Resigning from the cabinet for that seems a big step forward from parties during quarantine, affairs and Barnard castle type behaviours...

One paper was running a story that she wanted her phone upgraded, was not eligible, so she used the mugging as cover for getting approval for a new one.

Not sure why she didn’t just drop it down the stairs like most people do?

That'll be the Maily Torygraph then?
Sounds like she got shit advice from her solicitor as well!!

Not sure which paper, had the press review replay on Sky at 0530 on in the background.

[JM2K6]

The Times says it was phones multiple. She was investigated by the company she was working for, police came in, she pled guilty and got the minimum sentence.

Doesn't seem like an isolated incident, more that she was running a small scam over a period of time and got caught and paid the price.

Starmer has banked everything on appearances and anti corruption so this sort of thing is inevitable for anyone with any dirt - no matter how small it seems to be - once it crops up.

The good news is Labour are forging ahead with their tough talk on immigration and their understanding that the messaging is all that matters! Thanks McSweeney, the absence of any actual progress and the bending over and spreading for big business at the expense of everyone else is definitely not a concern!

[Hal Jordan]

And they've gotten rid of someone who seems less than enamoured of private rail ownership. Can't upset the business community applecart.

Starmer's gone in 5 years for some insane Trumpy populist. I see cuntface Farage is banging on about abortion in line with his paymasters' wishes (the US ones, anyway).

[Paddington Bear]

The railways were nationalised by law yesterday, with the Operator of Last Resort taking services that were not already nationalised in house over the next few months. So it makes no odds who is transport sec really on that.

Of course we’re about to find out, if it wasn’t already clear, that being publicly owned is no panacea for the railways, but that is someone else’s problem now

[JM2K6]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

[Dinsdale Piranha]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

[Biffer]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

If they're run as public companies rather than as an arm of the department of transport, you can provide a better service. It's not an uncommon model in other countries. Just don't have politicians or civil servants in charge of day to day running.

[Margin__Walker]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

Can't be any worse than relying on Northern Rail to get you to work up here. Mind-blowing bad at the basics. Ancient rolling stock, crap punctuality, rampant cancellations and a real zeal for some pretty outrageous 'fare dodging' prosecutions.

Genuinely a company that wouldn't survive two minutes in any other industry where there were alternative options for consumers.

[epwc]

TFL is a good service, not perfect but definitely good

[Biffer]

TFL is a good service, not perfect but definitely good

Yep, set up as a statutory corporation so run as a business but public ownership

[epwc]

It's also a hugely complex system, so it's definitely doable

[JM2K6]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

It's dreadful now and also hugely expensive, so...

[Hal Jordan]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

Almost as if they were being run down to be flogged off cheap.

[Biffer]

It's not expected to be a panacea, but private ownership has been a gigantic pisstake - consumers getting rinsed while the operators make more and more money while providing worse and worse service.

Something we're seeing all over the place now thanks to the desire for growth uber alles

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

Almost as if they were being run down to be flogged off cheap.

Exactly.

[dpedin]

I rode trains to work in the 80's and 90s. Be careful what you wish for.

Almost as if they were being run down to be flogged off cheap.

Exactly.

A good chunk of UK railways are owned by railway companies from overseas! Most European countries have state owned railways albeit supplemented by some private sector operators. They seem to do ok?