The Official English Rugby Thread

[SaintK]

So let's get this right.
Despite presiding over the worst run of games by the England senior squad since the Ashton/Johnson era, the biggest fiancial loss ever by the RFU with a forecast of no profits for the next 5 or 6 years, the forced redundancy of 40 more Twickenham support staff, a huge cut in support for the grassroots game and reneging on an agreement to fund a second professional tier whilst giving £250m to the Premiership over the next 6 years.
Bill Sweeney is awarded a £350K bonus to his recently enhanced £750K salary this year!!!!
No wonder the cunt never wants to give press briefings or take questions. He can fuck right off back to wherever he came from.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/202 ... d-losses

It's not often I read an article and get angry, but that did cause a few expletives to be aired.

There's a lot to dislike, but awarding a hefty pay rise after a load of budget-driven redundancies is shocking.

Some comparisons I found in the other place make it look even worse!

If you align RFU to comparable turnover organisations (£200m) then:
MCC- CEO sal £240k
Jockey Club- CEO Sal £195k
Leeds United- CEO Sal £220k
Aston Villa- CEO Sal 371k
All Eng Club Tennis (twice the turnover, in profit)- CEO Sal £348k

[Margin__Walker]

Saw it mentioned that even the FA CEO only earns c.800k basic.

Sweeney's pay is genuinely bonkers in that environment.

[inactionman]

How does he get away with it.

[Margin__Walker]

He seemingly owes the ladies a beer

[Dinsdale Piranha]

He seemingly owes the ladies a beer

Also quite impressive that his salary+bonus would pay the wages for the whole Women's league.

[JM2K6]

It's not often I read an article and get angry, but that did cause a few expletives to be aired.

There's a lot to dislike, but awarding a hefty pay rise after a load of budget-driven redundancies is shocking.

I don't think the hefty pay rise is in any way justified, but it's worth remembering that it was awarded in the last financial year, not this one. Last year England got to a RWC semi-final, came 3rd overall and won 3 games in the 6N, including beating Ireland, and the financial losses can be attributed to the lack of autumn games at Twickenham, so on paper it looks like a pretty successful season.

The dreadful run of defeats and the wholesale redundancies are all in this financial year. If he gets another similar bonus this year, then that really would be shocking

True, although the lack of autumn game isn't unknown and we don't seem to plan very well around it. Which should be Sweeney's remit.

From what I've read we have planned around it. There's not a huge amount you can do to make up that shortfall immediately

Also I hate to be the guy defending the RFU but you can lay the blame for the clubs going bust at the feet of PRL

[SaintK]

I don't think the hefty pay rise is in any way justified, but it's worth remembering that it was awarded in the last financial year, not this one. Last year England got to a RWC semi-final, came 3rd overall and won 3 games in the 6N, including beating Ireland, and the financial losses can be attributed to the lack of autumn games at Twickenham, so on paper it looks like a pretty successful season.

The dreadful run of defeats and the wholesale redundancies are all in this financial year. If he gets another similar bonus this year, then that really would be shocking

True, although the lack of autumn game isn't unknown and we don't seem to plan very well around it. Which should be Sweeney's remit.

From what I've read we have planned around it. There's not a huge amount you can do to make up that shortfall immediately

Also I hate to be the guy defending the RFU but you can lay the blame for the clubs going bust at the feet of PRL

According to their forecasts they've planned not to make a profit for the next 8 to 10 years?
That is untenable an unacceptable whatever business metric used
Sweeney is a spoofer and why he's being protected by Ilube and the management board while the English game is withering away I have no idea

[Paddington Bear]

Sweeney’s salary and the whole RFU corporate structure is something I see at the ECB as well - they make a huge thing of ‘running like a FTSE’/‘being commercial’, which they translate as needing to have a large back office staff and a management team paid bug bucks. What they all actually do all day and what’s happening to the sport is entirely secondary

[JM2K6]

True, although the lack of autumn game isn't unknown and we don't seem to plan very well around it. Which should be Sweeney's remit.

From what I've read we have planned around it. There's not a huge amount you can do to make up that shortfall immediately

Also I hate to be the guy defending the RFU but you can lay the blame for the clubs going bust at the feet of PRL

According to their forecasts they've planned not to make a profit for the next 8 to 10 years?
That is untenable an unacceptable whatever business metric used
Sweeney is a spoofer and why he's being protected by Ilube and the management board while the English game is withering away I have no idea

Can you tell me where in the report they have the forecasts for the next decade?

The RFU have been pretty open about the challenges in the last few years. The impact of COVID, last year's loss of revenue from no AIs and fewer home 6N fixtures. They hit their profit/loss target which suggests they weren't caught on the hop. And to be fair to them, they are continuing to invest in areas that should help raise funds in the future, particularly in the women's game.

Ignoring Sweeney for a minute, what is the purpose of the RFU? Is it there to make a load of money? Or is it there to manage and grow the game in this country? I'd argue you should judge them on the latter, as long as their financial situation doesn't harm that objective. We've seen from the ECB what happens when you have a sporting body chase profits above all else. It's clear that the ECB has been hugely damaging to the English game.

We can argue about how successful the RFU has been in those objectives, and I am not predisposed to believing all the PR in the report about the improved health of the grass roots game, but I'm a little confused as to why the RFU announcing an expected loss while continuing to fund the game has been met with such vitriol. I'm far more pissed off with their decisions over England, as well as ticket prices...

[SaintK]

Not in their report obviously!
Francis Baron, The Guardian last week and The Rugby Paper at the weekend
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024 ... ike-this
There is also the little matter of a £500m revamp of Twickenham mooted to start in 2027 which is likely to eat up all the cash reserves and the naming rights cash allegedly worth £100m for the next 10 years.
They are abjectly failing in the core principle of growing the game at grassroots. I'm still heavily involved in junior club rugby and see and hear the same thing from other clubs week in and week out. Apart from womens and girls rugby the game is still haemorrhaging players at grassroots without being nable to infill at junior/mini level.
I appreciate that there are lot of other outside factors that affect that but the positive platitudes spouted by the RFU that they are "growing the game" are absolute bollocks and is where the vitriol comes from.
Don't get me started on Twickenham ticket pricing. I also run that side of things for my club and it is a bloody nightmare as well as being extortionate!!!!

[JM2K6]

Oh, right. Francis Baron. Forgive me for not treating his comments as facts worthy of discussion! He's been a bitter troll for over a decade. Remember when he claimed we were on course to lose the rights to host the 2015 world cup? He's been called out on his bullshit before and I wouldn't trust anything he says, ever.

Appreciate your insight into the grass roots, it's at odds with the numbers in the report but as mentioned I'm not inclined to take those at face value anyway.

The wider question of the purpose of the RFU and the relevance of profits still stands, though.

[Ovals]

Not in their report obviously!
Francis Baron, The Guardian last week and The Rugby Paper at the weekend
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024 ... ike-this
There is also the little matter of a £500m revamp of Twickenham mooted to start in 2027 which is likely to eat up all the cash reserves and the naming rights cash allegedly worth £100m for the next 10 years.
They are abjectly failing in the core principle of growing the game at grassroots. I'm still heavily involved in junior club rugby and see and hear the same thing from other clubs week in and week out. Apart from womens and girls rugby the game is still haemorrhaging players at grassroots without being nable to infill at junior/mini level.
I appreciate that there are lot of other outside factors that affect that but the positive platitudes spouted by the RFU that they are "growing the game" are absolute bollocks and is where the vitriol comes from.
Don't get me started on Twickenham ticket pricing. I also run that side of things for my club and it is a bloody nightmare as well as being extortionate!!!!

Cash Reserves are only £89M - so they'll have to find a helluva lot more funds to finance that revamp. Tangible Fixed assets are £245M so the revamp is to cost twice that. Debentures (51-70 years) stand at £237M. Given that net equity is currently just £24M - the revamp looks incredibly ambitious.

[SaintK]

Oh, right. Francis Baron. Forgive me for not treating his comments as facts worthy of discussion! He's been a bitter troll for over a decade. Remember when he claimed we were on course to lose the rights to host the 2015 world cup? He's been called out on his bullshit before and I wouldn't trust anything he says, ever.

Appreciate your insight into the grass roots, it's at odds with the numbers in the report but as mentioned I'm not inclined to take those at face value anyway.

The wider question of the purpose of the RFU and the relevance of profits still stands, though.

Why did I know you'd say that? Though I don't neccessarily disagree with you
How about Graham Cattermole then?

[Paddington Bear]

Will say again - the RFU does not have the capacity or capability to run a £600m renovation project successfully, it will bankrupt itself and the whole English game attempting to do so, and should use the funds to secure an advantageous deal at Wembley whilst they have a position of strength from which to do it

[Ovals]

Will say again - the RFU does not have the capacity or capability to run a £600m renovation project successfully, it will bankrupt itself and the whole English game attempting to do so, and should use the funds to secure an advantageous deal at Wembley whilst they have a position of strength from which to do it

I'd love to see the Discounted Cash Flow on that proposed £500M investment. As it stands, it's hard to see how it makes sense. I suppose it could be spread over a number of years, but, given the profit forecast, it looks like a white elephant.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Will say again - the RFU does not have the capacity or capability to run a £600m renovation project successfully, it will bankrupt itself and the whole English game attempting to do so, and should use the funds to secure an advantageous deal at Wembley whilst they have a position of strength from which to do it

I'd love to see the Discounted Cash Flow on that proposed £500M investment. As it stands, it's hard to see how it makes sense. I suppose it could be spread over a number of years, but, given the profit forecast, it looks like a white elephant.

My guess is they have plans for making a load more money from Twickenham after the redevelopment. Whether their plans are realistic, who knows.

[JM2K6]

Oh, right. Francis Baron. Forgive me for not treating his comments as facts worthy of discussion! He's been a bitter troll for over a decade. Remember when he claimed we were on course to lose the rights to host the 2015 world cup? He's been called out on his bullshit before and I wouldn't trust anything he says, ever.

Appreciate your insight into the grass roots, it's at odds with the numbers in the report but as mentioned I'm not inclined to take those at face value anyway.

The wider question of the purpose of the RFU and the relevance of profits still stands, though.

Why did I know you'd say that? Though I don't neccessarily disagree with you
How about Graham Cattermole then?

Probably because you know Baron has a gigantic axe to grind with the RFU! Same with Cattermole. They both got stripped of their privileges a few years back because they're relentless cunts; everything they say must be backed with hard evidence or it should be treated with extreme skepticism.

If it's that obvious an issue it won't be hard to find reasonable people who have the facts, or journalists not relying on those two for gossip.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect better sources than those two

[Paddington Bear]

Will say again - the RFU does not have the capacity or capability to run a £600m renovation project successfully, it will bankrupt itself and the whole English game attempting to do so, and should use the funds to secure an advantageous deal at Wembley whilst they have a position of strength from which to do it

I'd love to see the Discounted Cash Flow on that proposed £500M investment. As it stands, it's hard to see how it makes sense. I suppose it could be spread over a number of years, but, given the profit forecast, it looks like a white elephant.

My guess is they have plans for making a load more money from Twickenham after the redevelopment. Whether their plans are realistic, who knows.

The figure of £10m a test match is a little outdated, if a massively better and increased hospitality offering is there are they looking to make that £20-25m? Not sure how viable that is in reality, and as I say it’s all a little moot as if they’re being quoted £600m it’ll be a billion in reality before you account for years of tests away from HQ

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The £600 million quoted figure is itself wrong, there is a total possible spend of roughly that sum, but as things stand they've no plans to do all that work, they're going to do around half the work for a supposed cost of £300 million, and they'll get back to us on the rest when they've checked down the back of the sofa for any spare change lying around

[Tichtheid]

Joe Marler to retire from all rugby after Friday's Quins game.

He's said and done some dodgy things, but I couldn't help but like him

[Ovals]

Joe Marler to retire from all rugby after Friday's Quins game.

He's said and done some dodgy things, but I couldn't help but like him

Yeah - he could be tiresome at times but at least he was a character - and he's done good service for Quins and England. Probably the right time for him to go.

[SaintK]

Joe Marler to retire from all rugby after Friday's Quins game.

He's said and done some dodgy things, but I couldn't help but like him

Yeah - he could be tiresome at times but at least he was a character - and he's done good service for Quins and England. Probably the right time for him to go.

Definitely a "marmite" type of character. Outstanding prop in his time
Good luck to him

[Oxbow]

Very good player at his best, never really had much time for his 'banter'.

[epwc]

Great player, sometimes funny, haircut actually suited him!

[Paddington Bear]

Could be an arse, thinks he’s far funnier than he is but a fine player who gave England some good years. Well deserved retirement

[SaintK]

Snouts in the trough with Sweeney.
Who the fuck agrees these?

However, buried on page 96 of the report in the “notes to financial statements”, the RFU declares that total compensation paid to “key management personnel” rose from £2.8 million last year to £4.9 million. The increase is partly down to “the payout of the long-term incentive plan which accounts for £1.3 million and the increase in executive directors”.
Those to receive the LTIP bonus are:

Executive director of performance rugby: Conor O’Shea
Executive director of engagement & business Growth: Claudio Borges
Executive director of legal & governance: Angus Bujalski
Executive director of rugby development: Steve Grainger
Executive director of communications: Kathryn Williamson
The report also states that Sue Day, the RFU’s former chief financial officer, who resigned earlier this year to join the Football Association, did not qualify for an LTIP payment because she left before it was paid out, but still received what was effectively a golden-goodbye bonus on top of her annual bonus, which saw her salary increase from £509,000 to £554,000.

The governing body’s financial largesse at a time when it has recently made 42 staff redundant and posted a record deficit has been widely criticised. The £1.3 million paid in LTIP bonuses to the five executive directors and Sweeney is more than the £1 million that the RFU pays to Championship clubs.

[Sandstorm]

Snouts in the trough with Sweeney.
Who the fuck agrees these?

However, buried on page 96 of the report in the “notes to financial statements”, the RFU declares that total compensation paid to “key management personnel” rose from £2.8 million last year to £4.9 million. The increase is partly down to “the payout of the long-term incentive plan which accounts for £1.3 million and the increase in executive directors”.
Those to receive the LTIP bonus are:

Executive director of performance rugby: Conor O’Shea
Executive director of engagement & business Growth: Claudio Borges
Executive director of legal & governance: Angus Bujalski
Executive director of rugby development: Steve Grainger
Executive director of communications: Kathryn Williamson
The report also states that Sue Day, the RFU’s former chief financial officer, who resigned earlier this year to join the Football Association, did not qualify for an LTIP payment because she left before it was paid out, but still received what was effectively a golden-goodbye bonus on top of her annual bonus, which saw her salary increase from £509,000 to £554,000.

The governing body’s financial largesse at a time when it has recently made 42 staff redundant and posted a record deficit has been widely criticised. The £1.3 million paid in LTIP bonuses to the five executive directors and Sweeney is more than the £1 million that the RFU pays to Championship clubs.

Grainger should be paying back his whole salary. Rugby Development......

[JM2K6]

Snouts in the trough with Sweeney.
Who the fuck agrees these?

However, buried on page 96 of the report in the “notes to financial statements”, the RFU declares that total compensation paid to “key management personnel” rose from £2.8 million last year to £4.9 million. The increase is partly down to “the payout of the long-term incentive plan which accounts for £1.3 million and the increase in executive directors”.
Those to receive the LTIP bonus are:

Executive director of performance rugby: Conor O’Shea
Executive director of engagement & business Growth: Claudio Borges
Executive director of legal & governance: Angus Bujalski
Executive director of rugby development: Steve Grainger
Executive director of communications: Kathryn Williamson
The report also states that Sue Day, the RFU’s former chief financial officer, who resigned earlier this year to join the Football Association, did not qualify for an LTIP payment because she left before it was paid out, but still received what was effectively a golden-goodbye bonus on top of her annual bonus, which saw her salary increase from £509,000 to £554,000.

The governing body’s financial largesse at a time when it has recently made 42 staff redundant and posted a record deficit has been widely criticised. The £1.3 million paid in LTIP bonuses to the five executive directors and Sweeney is more than the £1 million that the RFU pays to Championship clubs.

Grainger should be paying back his whole salary. Rugby Development......

It has nothing to do with the pro game so I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what he's done wrong

[petej]

Snouts in the trough with Sweeney.
Who the fuck agrees these?

However, buried on page 96 of the report in the “notes to financial statements”, the RFU declares that total compensation paid to “key management personnel” rose from £2.8 million last year to £4.9 million. The increase is partly down to “the payout of the long-term incentive plan which accounts for £1.3 million and the increase in executive directors”.
Those to receive the LTIP bonus are:

Executive director of performance rugby: Conor O’Shea
Executive director of engagement & business Growth: Claudio Borges
Executive director of legal & governance: Angus Bujalski
Executive director of rugby development: Steve Grainger
Executive director of communications: Kathryn Williamson
The report also states that Sue Day, the RFU’s former chief financial officer, who resigned earlier this year to join the Football Association, did not qualify for an LTIP payment because she left before it was paid out, but still received what was effectively a golden-goodbye bonus on top of her annual bonus, which saw her salary increase from £509,000 to £554,000.

The governing body’s financial largesse at a time when it has recently made 42 staff redundant and posted a record deficit has been widely criticised. The £1.3 million paid in LTIP bonuses to the five executive directors and Sweeney is more than the £1 million that the RFU pays to Championship clubs.

Grainger should be paying back his whole salary. Rugby Development......

Mental.

[dpedin]

Great player, sometimes funny, haircut actually suited him!

He was a great prop but his lack of mobility caught up with him sooner than many other props. I enjoyed his banter!

[tc27]

Just caught up on Sweeney using the Woman's win % to bump the overall % and get his bonus.

I mean it's kind of appropriate if we really must treat the women's game as being a equivalent in every respect for the mens. I hope the girls are making 20k a game and get six figure salaries from their clubs.

[Paddington Bear]

On the East Coast Main Line up to Newcastle - anyone been to Kingston Park before with recommendations for food/pubs?

[inactionman]

Joe Marler to retire from all rugby after Friday's Quins game.

He's said and done some dodgy things, but I couldn't help but like him

Should be a good match, both teams are easy on the eye.

Quins are resting Smith but other internationals are back into the team.

Bill Mata making his delayed Bristol debut. Interested to see how he goes - he was a very strong carrier for Edinburgh, and Bristol like to try and keep the ball alive through contact.

[Tichtheid]

Joe Marler to retire from all rugby after Friday's Quins game.

He's said and done some dodgy things, but I couldn't help but like him

Should be a good match, both teams are easy on the eye.

Quins are resting Smith but other internationals are back into the team.

Bill Mata making his delayed Bristol debut. Interested to see how he goes - he was a very strong carrier for Edinburgh, and Bristol like to try and keep the ball alive through contact.

At his fittest and best he is unreal at that particular skill, one of the best in the sport.

Edinburgh flogged him, he played every available minute and was used as a heavy duty tractor with pace and fairy dust. I hope he does very well at Bristol.

[JM2K6]

It's an extremely powerful Bristol side. Could be painful viewing for Quins fans.

[Paddington Bear]

Sarries are being absolutely battered, more so than the scoreline suggests. Newcastle have missed two pens, one of which was a sitter. Meanwhile on the terrace I, a man who has Raynaud’s Syndrome, realised on the walk to the ground my gloves are on the windowsill at home. So all in all an emotional evening on Tyneside

[SaintK]

Brilliant match
Both teams going full attack only 4 scrums and 1 penalty in 40 minutes
21 17 to Bristol at halftime
Oh and Falcons leading Sarries 17 5 at halftime. Haven’t beaten them in 15 years!!!

[SaintK]

Sarries are being absolutely battered, more so than the scoreline suggests. Newcastle have missed two pens, one of which was a sitter. Meanwhile on the terrace I, a man who has Raynaud’s Syndrome, realised on the walk to the ground my gloves are on the windowsill at home. So all in all an emotional evening on Tyneside

Shit, Raynauds is bloody painful
Bet the Falcons fans are in short sleeved t shirts though

[JM2K6]

Sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and admit you were well beaten. Bristol were phenomenal tonight. Quins couldn't live with them after the card but even so I think they'd have won handily. Just so accurate, so smart, and so dangerous.

One penalty given in the first half has to be a record, too. Great game, we got thumped but I enjoyed that a lot.

[Oxbow]

Sickening thuggery from Sarries.