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Where goats go to escape
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epwc
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In answer to my dismissal as a "politician" :eek: on another thread, this is what I mean by complexity:

An example from this morning, I was talking to a friend who happens to be a farmer, pro Brexit, and pretty much a climate change denier this morning about recent floods. We ended up having a heated 30 minute argument on the topic as his view is that the floods are a direct result of the EA not clearing channels thereby curtailing the flow. As far as he's concerned a waterways only job is to dump surplus water into the sea as fast as possible.

He used to be a tutor at an ag college, he has some kind of degree in farmimg. He absolutely categorically knows from his time as a student that there is much more to the issue of flooding than merely the restriction of flow, he knows about nitrogen runoff, soil erosion, riverine ecosystems blah blah blah

BUT he in order to defend his view that climate change is not a thing chooses to view the issue of flooding in a single dimension. He is 100% committed to this view and cannot veer even a few degrees to the left or right of his view.

Now this is someone that really should know better, so what about all those people that have no need in normal life to know anything about the complexities of managing waterways whilst mitigating flood risk?

If someone who one would assume knows at least something about the topic so directly attributes blame to a single issue then I guess a lay person would think that they have a point.

Whilst there's always been an element of this social media has channelled what consumers are fed in their news stream. My friend has in the last few years, eschewed mainstream media in favour of Facebook groups and Twitter. As I say this somoeone who attended uni and spent decades teaching at one.

There is no simple answer to the question of flooding, what it needs is for river systems to be looked at holistically, including abstraction and discharges considering all of the desired outcomes and balancing them with available resources over a considerable timeframe.

Sorting our rivers out will take decades IF some fucker can be bothered to do it, there are no short term gains that any government can demonstrate within a single term.

So, what do we think is going to happen? Maybe some flood defences for Tenbury Wells whilst we carry on allowing development on flood plains? Is that rational? No. Is there any meaningful benefit? No.

A small example of complexity, even though it's obvious that nothing happens in isolation; a huge web of interlinked issues that need to be unpicked and brought back together in a way that works. I see no evidence that any political party or media organisation appreciates or communicates these complexities instead relying on sensationalism to further their own agenda.

There are many further layers of complexity that I can illustrate but the other one that I have a recent example of is to do with energy efficient homes. I posted here a while ago about bring together two charities together to see what could be done to lobby government to put together something resembling sensible building regs for new homes. One of them (the one with better access to government) had already done a lot of work on their retrofit warmer homes policy, but I highlighted all the different problems arising from this approach (some of which have hit the headlines recently in botched execution of roof insulation funded by government grant). I attended a meeting with theis charity last week and despite the input they had from actual real practitioners who build shit they've decided to go with their approach.

Soundbites, headlines, tweetable bollocks is the attention span that we in general are willing to commit to existential issues whilst absorbing in minute detail everything about what some "celeb" has done in the jungle or on the dance floor.

I see no sign of impending positive change in society, politics or the media. Much as I dislike his generally negative perception of changing demographics I do agree with PB that Reform will be a meaningful party at the next elections. While the world burns society gets suckered into single issue politics with simple "solutions" by proven liars and cheats.
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fishfoodie
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Ah; an educated imbecile !!

There are a lot of them about; they spend a number of years getting an education, & then turned their brains off, & decided to let other people do their thinking for them, & abandon all critical thinking.

There's a lot of them about I'm afraid :sad:

My Dad used to rail against; "Experts", he almost spat the word out when he said it sometimes, & I immediately knew what he'd had to deal with that day, someone who was supremely confident in their statements, despite their complete ignorance of the subject matter, but they somehow knew that the other person, despite years of actual real-life experience, & all the scientific/engineering data was wrong, & the twat that they'd heard a sound bite from was right .....

Along the lines of your flooding, a recent classic one I heard was the people railing against the limited re-introduction of beavers to UK waterways to allow them to manage the waterways, & how the way their dams, & ponds prevented, or at the very least, diminished flooding in towns, because they dramatically slowed the flow of flood waters into the choke points. One of the objections the, "Experts" raised was to complain how the fishermen on the rivers would suffer, because the Beavers would eat all the fish !!!!! ...... cue much rolling of eyes while it was explained to the "Experts", that Beavers didn't actually eat fish :roll: :roll:
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Niegs
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Beavers eating fish!?

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And I think I said this in the environment thread, but I've become so cynical that nothing will truly happen until the majority are directly and severely impacted. "Oh, some people near the water had a bit of flooding? Meh, didn't affect me..." There are far too many selfish c-units who block preventative measures because...

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Uncle fester
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fishfoodie wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:25 pm cue much rolling of eyes while it was explained to the "Experts", that Beavers didn't actually eat fish :roll: :roll:
I guess I learned something new today.
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Enzedder
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Don't build on a steep hill; don't build at the bottom of any hill; don't build near the river or the sea.

Plant some trees. Don't burn them all.

YouTube is the worst University in the world unless you need to learn how to programme your weather station.

I think that's about it.
I drink and I forget things.
Slick
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Uncle fester wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:56 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:25 pm cue much rolling of eyes while it was explained to the "Experts", that Beavers didn't actually eat fish :roll: :roll:
I guess I learned something new today.
What the fuck do they eat then?
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Hal Jordan
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People.
weegie01
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Slick wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:02 am
Uncle fester wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:56 pm
fishfoodie wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:25 pm cue much rolling of eyes while it was explained to the "Experts", that Beavers didn't actually eat fish :roll: :roll:
I guess I learned something new today.
What the fuck do they eat then?
Trees*.

To be specific the leaves, shoots and inner bark of trees. They don't fell trees to make lodges, dams etc, they do so for food. They then sometimes use the bits they do not eat for other purposes.

Which makes the response by our local council to beaver felling insane. They remove any fallen trees thus removing the beavers food supply, so the beavers just fell more trees.

Beavers only build dams where the water is not deep enough for them. We have beavers in the local river system. There are no dams as there is enough water for them to swim, and no lodges as the have dug burrows into the bank.

*and other woody vegetation.
Last edited by weegie01 on Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Slick
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weegie01 wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:38 am
Slick wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:02 am
Uncle fester wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:56 pm

I guess I learned something new today.
What the fuck do they eat then?
Trees*.

To be specific the leaves, shoots and inner bark of trees. They don't fell trees to make lodges, dams ets, they do so for food. They then sometimes use the bits they do not eat for other purposes.

Which makes the response by our local council to beaver felling insane. They remove any fallen trees thus removing the beavers food supply, so the beavers just fell more trees.

Beavers only build dams where the water is not deep enough for them. We have beavers the local river system. There are no dams as there is enough water for them to swim, and no lodges as the have dug burrows into the bank.

*and other woody vegetation.
This is a sad day. I loved beavers, turns out they are a bit shit.

And hearty congratulations to the whole community for the lack of beaver jokes.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
epwc
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Hal Jordan wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:29 amPeople.
If only
TedMaul
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Slick wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:42 am
weegie01 wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:38 am
Slick wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:02 am

What the fuck do they eat then?
Trees*.

To be specific the leaves, shoots and inner bark of trees. They don't fell trees to make lodges, dams ets, they do so for food. They then sometimes use the bits they do not eat for other purposes.

Which makes the response by our local council to beaver felling insane. They remove any fallen trees thus removing the beavers food supply, so the beavers just fell more trees.

Beavers only build dams where the water is not deep enough for them. We have beavers the local river system. There are no dams as there is enough water for them to swim, and no lodges as the have dug burrows into the bank.

*and other woody vegetation.


This is a sad day. I loved beavers, turns out they are a bit shit.

And hearty congratulations to the whole community for the lack of beaver jokes.
Ahem, they must go at fish cos they smell of them *Greggmode*
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fishfoodie
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Hal Jordan wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:29 amPeople.
Damn !

weegie got in too fast :evil:

We could have started a new Dropbear tale, with carnivorous beavers invading the river ways of the UK
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Sandstorm
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fishfoodie wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 6:09 pm
Hal Jordan wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:29 amPeople.
Damn !

weegie got in too fast :evil:

We could have started a new Dropbear tale, with carnivorous beavers invading the river ways of the UK
No chance! The dangerous American lobster would devour them all in a heartbeat.
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Niegs
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Beavers can be a pain, though, as they'll create ponds and flood areas for their benefit, not yours. My brother works for municipal public works and has had to take down some dams because they've completely flooded country roads.

https://www.tayvalleytwp.ca/en/living-h ... eaver.aspx

That's not his township, but this happened on his watch (the opposite in this case, a dam gave away on its own and flooded an area)

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They are incredible creatures, though. I've heard that as the young venture out to form their own ponds, they'll use scent to mark their territory and remain fairly non-competitive with family. For outsiders, they'll leave scent on mound of mud to say "Yo, just letting you know this here's my spot. Feel free to pass through, but we've got this one." And any 'battles' I've seen are more pushing matches, but not murderous (how very Canadian!), despite those gnashers they have. That said, my delightfully dumb golden lab crawled into a lodge when we were kids and backed out with a yelp, displaying a two inch gash in her chest. :shock:

And there's a massive 850m dam in northern Alberta!
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https://www.theweathernetwork.com/en/ne ... c-st-clair
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fishfoodie
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So how much did the +800m dam cost ?, $100M, $200M ???

I think these guys need to get their act together & start bidding on flood relief projects, because they have a much better product, at a very competitive price !!
Yeeb
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Disappointing beaver thread tbf
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fishfoodie
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Yeeb wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:18 pm Disappointing beaver thread tbf
They're all Brazilian beavers :sad: , very little coverage :wink:
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