The Official English Rugby Thread

[Kawazaki]

Smith does at least attempt to tackle.

He does what?

[Paddington Bear]

Unofortunately, it did bag two narrow wins against decent opposition and we may well end up 4 from 5 by the end of the tournament, which would certainly be taken as evidence that it is working even if we could quite as easily be 2 from 5.

We did also score four tries against France in fairness, which has nothing to do with their handling and seems to be getting overlooked. Kicking into position followed by well executed strike moves is not a horror show for spectators at all and seems to be what they’re attempting. A few handling errors and a dumb pen from Earl prevented it getting off the ground v Scotland but you can see what they’re trying to do.

Scotland in any case was exceptional in that the team shat themselves as soon as they realised it was a ‘Jamie Ritchie has arrived to play rugby day’ as opposed to ‘Jamie Ritchie has arrived to show off his beach weights and whinge at the ref’ day, leading to a decision to not offer Scotland any turnover opportunities in our own half. Take out a phenomenally dumb lineout pen in the last 5 minutes and the tactic probably leads to a 19-10 win over a bogey side and I’m convinced the narrative would be different

That’s a great take you keep thinking this england team are on the cusp of being special…. They played almost zero running rugby in the entire 80 mins

OK, and we still beat you. Which ought to raise questions on your own thread which aren’t about the ref. And anyway I wrote exactly what I wrote and not what you wrote

[Ovals]

Smith does at least attempt to tackle.

He does what?

He's made plenty of tackles in this 6N @ completion rate of 70% - somewhat better than Earl. Marcus certainly doesn't lack conviction in tackling.

[Paddington Bear]

Unofortunately, it did bag two narrow wins against decent opposition and we may well end up 4 from 5 by the end of the tournament, which would certainly be taken as evidence that it is working even if we could quite as easily be 2 from 5.

We did also score four tries against France in fairness, which has nothing to do with their handling and seems to be getting overlooked. Kicking into position followed by well executed strike moves is not a horror show for spectators at all and seems to be what they’re attempting. A few handling errors and a dumb pen from Earl prevented it getting off the ground v Scotland but you can see what they’re trying to do.

Scotland in any case was exceptional in that the team shat themselves as soon as they realised it was a ‘Jamie Ritchie has arrived to play rugby day’ as opposed to ‘Jamie Ritchie has arrived to show off his beach weights and whinge at the ref’ day, leading to a decision to not offer Scotland any turnover opportunities in our own half. Take out a phenomenally dumb lineout pen in the last 5 minutes and the tactic probably leads to a 19-10 win over a bogey side and I’m convinced the narrative would be different

In isolation, sure, it looks like maybe it's progress and they're building to something, but this is Borthwick's 3rd campaign and at least the 5th for this squad where there's been a mixture of horrific anti-rugby, promising attack, shizophrenic defence and a whole lot of mediocrity. I accept that we're not going to play a champagne rugby blinder every single game, let alone against decent opposition, but getting back to a place where we can at least look as fluid as the other leading teams and as cohesive in what we're trying to do shouldn't be too much to ask and yet it's been years.

I agree. I think they are trying and in Borthwick’s defence until three weeks ago he couldn’t catch a break and that left him and the side far more under the pump than they ought to be (isn’t his fault Earl flew off his feet in the last minute in France, Smith missed 3 kicks in Dunedin or Ford missed a last minute dg etc etc). There was clearly a monkey on their back v Scotland particularly (see how many times the players mentioned it in Inside Line).

If we play shit rugby in the next two matches I’ll happily reverse course but I can see what they’re trying to do

[Punter15]

Smith does at least attempt to tackle.

He does what?

He's made plenty of tackles in this 6N @ completion rate of 70% - somewhat better than Earl. Marcus certainly doesn't lack conviction in tackling.

Toga is deflecting from the point which is that Daly is a turnstile.

[Paddington Bear]

He does what?

He's made plenty of tackles in this 6N @ completion rate of 70% - somewhat better than Earl. Marcus certainly doesn't lack conviction in tackling.

Toga is deflecting from the point which is that Daly is a turnstile.

You’ve seen Smith’s defence at full back?

[Kawazaki]

Smith does at least attempt to tackle.

He does what?

He's made plenty of tackles in this 6N @ completion rate of 70% - somewhat better than Earl. Marcus certainly doesn't lack conviction in tackling.

He's rarely in the correct place to make the tackle in the first place! And he's a wet rag when he does get there.

It's hilarious reading the Quins board, they seriously think Marcus Smith is some kind of rugby God.

[Ovals]

He does what?

He's made plenty of tackles in this 6N @ completion rate of 70% - somewhat better than Earl. Marcus certainly doesn't lack conviction in tackling.

He's rarely in the correct place to make the tackle in the first place! And he's a wet rag when he does get there.

It's hilarious reading the Quins board, they seriously think Marcus Smith is some kind of rugby God.

And if he played for Sarries, you'd agree.

[Kawazaki]

We did also score four tries against France in fairness, which has nothing to do with their handling and seems to be getting overlooked. Kicking into position followed by well executed strike moves is not a horror show for spectators at all and seems to be what they’re attempting. A few handling errors and a dumb pen from Earl prevented it getting off the ground v Scotland but you can see what they’re trying to do.

Scotland in any case was exceptional in that the team shat themselves as soon as they realised it was a ‘Jamie Ritchie has arrived to play rugby day’ as opposed to ‘Jamie Ritchie has arrived to show off his beach weights and whinge at the ref’ day, leading to a decision to not offer Scotland any turnover opportunities in our own half. Take out a phenomenally dumb lineout pen in the last 5 minutes and the tactic probably leads to a 19-10 win over a bogey side and I’m convinced the narrative would be different

In isolation, sure, it looks like maybe it's progress and they're building to something, but this is Borthwick's 3rd campaign and at least the 5th for this squad where there's been a mixture of horrific anti-rugby, promising attack, shizophrenic defence and a whole lot of mediocrity. I accept that we're not going to play a champagne rugby blinder every single game, let alone against decent opposition, but getting back to a place where we can at least look as fluid as the other leading teams and as cohesive in what we're trying to do shouldn't be too much to ask and yet it's been years.

I agree. I think they are trying and in Borthwick’s defence until three weeks ago he couldn’t catch a break and that left him and the side far more under the pump than they ought to be (isn’t his fault Earl flew off his feet in the last minute in France, Smith missed 3 kicks in Dunedin or Ford missed a last minute dg etc etc). There was clearly a monkey on their back v Scotland particularly (see how many times the players mentioned it in Inside Line).

If we play shit rugby in the next two matches I’ll happily reverse course but I can see what they’re trying to do

Nah, you've misread this one I'm afraid. England under Borthwick are, by ALL metrics, utterly dreadful. They literally don't play rugby. Now, if you play like that and fluke a win then you will not get much credit for the win. However, if you continue to play like that and lose then you deserve everything thrown at you.

England are awful. I said Borthwick would be Eddie-lite before he was hired and so did many others. And we're spot on. There is no redemption end to this story either btw, Borthwick won't have an epiphany and suddenly start playing attractive rugby. There will be no evolution in style, this is the Borthwick way - it doesn't change. He's pathologically averse to taking any kind of risk.

He's a data analytics nerd who has been promoted way way beyond his Peter Principle threshold. And we're stuck with the useless charisma-free prick for another three years.

[Kawazaki]

He's made plenty of tackles in this 6N @ completion rate of 70% - somewhat better than Earl. Marcus certainly doesn't lack conviction in tackling.

He's rarely in the correct place to make the tackle in the first place! And he's a wet rag when he does get there.

It's hilarious reading the Quins board, they seriously think Marcus Smith is some kind of rugby God.

And if he played for Sarries, you'd agree.

You really don't understand me one bit. You should follow what I write more closely and you might learn something.

[Paddington Bear]

In isolation, sure, it looks like maybe it's progress and they're building to something, but this is Borthwick's 3rd campaign and at least the 5th for this squad where there's been a mixture of horrific anti-rugby, promising attack, shizophrenic defence and a whole lot of mediocrity. I accept that we're not going to play a champagne rugby blinder every single game, let alone against decent opposition, but getting back to a place where we can at least look as fluid as the other leading teams and as cohesive in what we're trying to do shouldn't be too much to ask and yet it's been years.

I agree. I think they are trying and in Borthwick’s defence until three weeks ago he couldn’t catch a break and that left him and the side far more under the pump than they ought to be (isn’t his fault Earl flew off his feet in the last minute in France, Smith missed 3 kicks in Dunedin or Ford missed a last minute dg etc etc). There was clearly a monkey on their back v Scotland particularly (see how many times the players mentioned it in Inside Line).

If we play shit rugby in the next two matches I’ll happily reverse course but I can see what they’re trying to do

Nah, you've misread this one I'm afraid. England under Borthwick are, by ALL metrics, utterly dreadful. They literally don't play rugby. Now, if you play like that and fluke a win then you will not get much credit for the win. However, if you continue to play like that and lose then you deserve everything thrown at you.

England are awful. I said Borthwick would be Eddie-lite before he was hired and so did many others. And we're spot on. There is no redemption end to this story either btw, Borthwick won't have an epiphany and suddenly start playing attractive rugby. There will be no evolution in style, this is the Borthwick way - it doesn't change. He's pathologically averse to taking any kind of risk.

He's a data analytics nerd who has been promoted way way beyond his Peter Principle threshold. And we're stuck with the useless charisma-free prick for another three years.

Not sure how ‘play no rugby’ stacks up against what we saw in 2024. We played route 1 v Wales and were dreadful against Scotland, albeit tried to spin it. The issues were defensive and bottle related as we otherwise played some at times quite exciting stuff.

But yes I certainly agree he’s going nowhere until after the world cup. He seems to have been very successful at getting buy in from the group, I don’t see a team in world rugby working harder and that has not always been the case. Probably Sinfield’s doing. Find an experienced attack coach and I think we’ll do pretty well under him

[Ovals]

He's rarely in the correct place to make the tackle in the first place! And he's a wet rag when he does get there.

It's hilarious reading the Quins board, they seriously think Marcus Smith is some kind of rugby God.

And if he played for Sarries, you'd agree.

You really don't understand me one bit. You should follow what I write more closely and you might learn something.

I've learned how highly you regard yourself !

[sockwithaticket]

U20s side for tonight's game

[sockwithaticket]

U20s team for Friday night



Pushing for second championship on the spin, but a grand slam this time.

[SaintK]

U20s team for Friday night



Pushing for second championship on the spin, but a grand slam this time.

That team should be more than good enough to finish the job!

[Paddington Bear]

U20s team for Friday night



Pushing for second championship on the spin, but a grand slam this time.

That team should be more than good enough to finish the job!

They’ve been excellent, really enjoyable to watch. Chuck it around but have something up front as well.


Meanwhile the Telegraph report Roebuck will start on Saturday, not hating it

[SaintK]

U20s team for Friday night



Pushing for second championship on the spin, but a grand slam this time.

That team should be more than good enough to finish the job!

They’ve been excellent, really enjoyable to watch. Chuck it around but have something up front as well.


Meanwhile the Telegraph report Roebuck will start on Saturday, not hating it

Interesting and long overdue move. Would have thought Borthwick was too conservative to give it a go in the final match of the 6N

Tom Roebuck, the Sale Sharks wing, will make his first Test start against Wales with Tommy Freeman shifting to outside centre in another bold selection call by England head coach Steve Borthwick.
Roebuck has won three caps, but all have come as a replacement and the rangy wing has never previously featured in a Six Nations matchday squad.
But Telegraph Sport understands that Borthwick, who dropped Marcus Smith last week, is prepared to give the 24-year-old his full debut in the cauldron of the Principality Stadium.

https://archive.ph/qRz3J#selection-3657.0-3681.160

[Oxbow]

Freeman alongside Dingwall should work well, also a bit of size to counter that big welsh fella, Llewelyn?

[Paddington Bear]

Freeman alongside Dingwall should work well, also a bit of size to counter that big welsh fella, Llewelyn?

By all accounts they see Freeman as a centre in the long term anyway (I assume they want him and Waboso on the pitch at the same time)

[Hal Jordan]

Freeman alongside Dingwall should work well, also a bit of size to counter that big welsh fella, Llewelyn?

If Slade is capable of walking, I would bet a certain amount on him starting at 12.

[Raggs]

Freeman alongside Dingwall should work well, also a bit of size to counter that big welsh fella, Llewelyn?

If Slade is capable of walking, I would bet a certain amount on him starting at 12.

Why? A near full Northampton Saints back line from 9-13 makes more sense to me than slotting Slade in.

[Yeeb]

Who could have foreseen a player as bang average as Borthwick would end up coaching a team to be so boring and dour ?

Given the player base , England should be far better than they are

[Lobby]

Some odd selections for Saturday's game

M Smith; Roebuck, Freeman, Dingwall, Daly; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, B Curry, Earl.

Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Cunningham-South, Pollock, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Ford.

I can't see the point of dropping Sleightholme just to slot M Smith into full back. It would have been much better to play Roebuck and Sleightholme on the wings with Daly in his best position of 15. Having Ford on the replacements bench also seems stupid. We really don't need 3 FHs in the team.

Pollock is an interesting selection on the bench, but Van Poortvliet fills me with dread for the last 10 minutes when he will come on to kill any momentum England might have.

[Oxbow]

Just when you think Borthwick might be less of a dick...

[Slick]

Some odd selections for Saturday's game

M Smith; Roebuck, Freeman, Dingwall, Daly; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, B Curry, Earl.

Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Cunningham-South, Pollock, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Ford.

I can't see the point of dropping Sleightholme just to slot M Smith into full back. It would have been much better to play Roebuck and Sleightholme on the wings with Daly in his best position of 15. Having Ford on the replacements bench also seems stupid. We really don't need 3 FHs in the team.

Pollock is an interesting selection on the bench, but Van Poortvliet fills me with dread for the last 10 minutes when he will come on to kill any momentum England might have.

I admire Borthwicks confidence that M Smith is suddenly going to be able to tackle.

[geordie_6]

Bizarre choices. No out and out lock cover on the bench, CCS to step up into the row if needed?

One injury to the back three or centres also messes things up as well. Presumably Daly is there to step in at 13 if needed and Freeman out wide if needed but leaves holes elsewhere with just JVP and Ford on the bench. Who goes to 12 if Dingwall goes off for example?

[Paddington Bear]

Cannot fathom what role we’re hoping Ford plays off the bench

[SaintK]

Some odd selections for Saturday's game

M Smith; Roebuck, Freeman, Dingwall, Daly; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, B Curry, Earl.

Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Cunningham-South, Pollock, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Ford.

I can't see the point of dropping Sleightholme just to slot M Smith into full back. It would have been much better to play Roebuck and Sleightholme on the wings with Daly in his best position of 15. Having Ford on the replacements bench also seems stupid. We really don't need 3 FHs in the team.

Pollock is an interesting selection on the bench, but Van Poortvliet fills me with dread for the last 10 minutes when he will come on to kill any momentum England might have.

Why the fuck have 3 fly halves been selected when none of them can actually cover any other position ( M Smith is not and never will be a full back). It's a bonkers selection pareticularly as Sleightholme played quite well and Daly went well at full back.
Backrow is unbalanced again and I'm not at all convinced that replacing Hill with Pollock is a good call either. Pollock should have earned his 1st cap in Argentina during the summer.

[Slick]

Oh fuck, I was thinking for some reason that this was a selection for Italy. It's Wales in Cardiff. Whilst they are crap, Wales in Cardiff should still be taken seriously.

[sockwithaticket]

It really feels like laying the groundwork for one of Wales patented 'pulling it out of the hat against England' games.

Pollock would be better served helping the 20s achieve a grandslam. Why does Borthwick hate Hill? Why do we only have two locks? Even with Martin injured there should be someone to call upon rather than being forced into shoving one of the back rows there (Cunningham-South presumably given that none of the other 5 [5!] back rows are particularly tall).

[Punter15]

Is Borthwick on a spectrum?

[duke]

That selection is bizarre, both with the starting team and the subs bench, would far rather see Daly at fullback, Sleighthome on the wing and Willis at 8 as for last week.

I can't fathon the logic of having no 2nd row on the bench or Ford at all - it smacks a little of arrogance and the Welsh will be licking their chops at having Smith x2 and Ford all in the back line at some stage.

[Paddington Bear]

That selection is bizarre, both with the starting team and the subs bench, would far rather see Daly at fullback, Sleighthome on the wing and Willis at 8 as for last week.

I can't fathon the logic of having no 2nd row on the bench or Ford at all - it smacks a little of arrogance and the Welsh will be licking their chops at having Smith x2 and Ford all in the back line at some stage.

To be honest in the event of an injury that requires that I think we’re more likely to see Earl in the centres.

I assume Ford is picked after seeing Scotland tear them apart out wide for the purposes of picking up a bonus point. Win the game first then have a charge at the end, any win in Cardiff for England is always a good result

[fishfoodie]

Some odd selections for Saturday's game

M Smith; Roebuck, Freeman, Dingwall, Daly; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, B Curry, Earl.

Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Cunningham-South, Pollock, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Ford.

I can't see the point of dropping Sleightholme just to slot M Smith into full back. It would have been much better to play Roebuck and Sleightholme on the wings with Daly in his best position of 15. Having Ford on the replacements bench also seems stupid. We really don't need 3 FHs in the team.

Pollock is an interesting selection on the bench, but Van Poortvliet fills me with dread for the last 10 minutes when he will come on to kill any momentum England might have.

Why the fuck have 3 fly halves been selected when none of them can actually cover any other position ( M Smith is not and never will be a full back). It's a bonkers selection pareticularly as Sleightholme played quite well and Daly went well at full back.
Backrow is unbalanced again and I'm not at all convinced that replacing Hill with Pollock is a good call either. Pollock should have earned his 1st cap in Argentina during the summer.

Scabnose must have selected the side back when Wales were playing centers in every position, & refused to pick an actual OH

[Hal Jordan]

Is Borthwick on a spectrum?

Captain Black.

[Hal Jordan]

Cannot fathom what role we’re hoping Ford plays off the bench

Tactical kicking for the last 15 minutes and pop passes to front rowers idling in the 12 channel?

Tom Curry is just getting flogged into the ground by Borthwick, he's been limping about in matches and still not subbed until he can barely move, I assume Richard Hill has been extolling the virtues of permanent knee damage during team meetings.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Some odd selections for Saturday's game

M Smith; Roebuck, Freeman, Dingwall, Daly; F Smith, Mitchell; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Stuart, Itoje (capt), Chessum, T Curry, B Curry, Earl.

Replacements: George, Baxter, Heyes, Cunningham-South, Pollock, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Ford.

I can't see the point of dropping Sleightholme just to slot M Smith into full back. It would have been much better to play Roebuck and Sleightholme on the wings with Daly in his best position of 15. Having Ford on the replacements bench also seems stupid. We really don't need 3 FHs in the team.

Pollock is an interesting selection on the bench, but Van Poortvliet fills me with dread for the last 10 minutes when he will come on to kill any momentum England might have.

Why the fuck have 3 fly halves been selected when none of them can actually cover any other position ( M Smith is not and never will be a full back). It's a bonkers selection pareticularly as Sleightholme played quite well and Daly went well at full back.
Backrow is unbalanced again and I'm not at all convinced that replacing Hill with Pollock is a good call either. Pollock should have earned his 1st cap in Argentina during the summer.

Scabnose must have selected the side back when Wales were playing centers in every position, & refused to pick an actual OH

They still are, sort of. Anscombe might be old, injured or just plain lazy, but whilst not an empty shirt he's hardly covering every blade of grass, and that's a problem. Certainly he was capable as a 10, maybe he'll show he still is, hasn't been good thus far mind

[Rhubarb & Custard]

That selection is bizarre, both with the starting team and the subs bench, would far rather see Daly at fullback, Sleighthome on the wing and Willis at 8 as for last week.

I can't fathon the logic of having no 2nd row on the bench or Ford at all - it smacks a little of arrogance and the Welsh will be licking their chops at having Smith x2 and Ford all in the back line at some stage.

To be honest in the event of an injury that requires that I think we’re more likely to see Earl in the centres.

I assume Ford is picked after seeing Scotland tear them apart out wide for the purposes of picking up a bonus point. Win the game first then have a charge at the end, any win in Cardiff for England is always a good result

I was undecided on Earl Vs Pollock

[Slick]

That selection is bizarre, both with the starting team and the subs bench, would far rather see Daly at fullback, Sleighthome on the wing and Willis at 8 as for last week.

I can't fathon the logic of having no 2nd row on the bench or Ford at all - it smacks a little of arrogance and the Welsh will be licking their chops at having Smith x2 and Ford all in the back line at some stage.

To be honest in the event of an injury that requires that I think we’re more likely to see Earl in the centres.

I assume Ford is picked after seeing Scotland tear them apart out wide for the purposes of picking up a bonus point. Win the game first then have a charge at the end, any win in Cardiff for England is always a good result

Stuart Barnes did a piece the other day saying they should pick Earl at centre. I’m sure one of the England coaches was quoted as pretty much saying it was a stupid idea as he might be able to run hard from there but would be lost defensively

[fishfoodie]

That selection is bizarre, both with the starting team and the subs bench, would far rather see Daly at fullback, Sleighthome on the wing and Willis at 8 as for last week.

I can't fathon the logic of having no 2nd row on the bench or Ford at all - it smacks a little of arrogance and the Welsh will be licking their chops at having Smith x2 and Ford all in the back line at some stage.

To be honest in the event of an injury that requires that I think we’re more likely to see Earl in the centres.

I assume Ford is picked after seeing Scotland tear them apart out wide for the purposes of picking up a bonus point. Win the game first then have a charge at the end, any win in Cardiff for England is always a good result

Stuart Barnes did a piece the other day saying they should pick Earl at centre. I’m sure one of the England coaches was quoted as pretty much saying it was a stupid idea as he might be able to run hard from there but would be lost defensively

Adding to the long list of reasons why he opted for yelling "advice" from the stands instead of giving coaching a go himself !

How would Stu have reacted to his coach telling him he was going to be loosehead in the next match, because some has been on the Torygraph said it was an opportunity ????, I'm going to guess, not well ?

Even at Club level it's idiocy; at International level it's certifiable !